AR Sponsor
Posted: 4/10/2024 5:39:09 AM EDT
| I really need to start taking notes. Can someone remind me which way the grins should be oriented? Sharp edge forward or rearward? |
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Originally Posted By OTDR: Is that just your opinion or based on sound scientific evidence? Originally Posted By OTDR: Originally Posted By FedDC: It doesn't matter so long as they fit correctly. The AR is overgassed anyway...whatever minimal difference this makes is irrelevant. Is that just your opinion or based on sound scientific evidence? First hand experience...you can run it on 1 ring, installed either way. Its crazy overgassed for what it does as the design assumes mass production with very little hand fitting. In the original TMs for the M-16A1, the armorer was literally told to fire 3 blank cartridges anytime they removed the FSB or gas tube from the FSB in order to "seal up" the gas system with carbon. You see carbon leakage throughout the gas system...around the FSB, around the gas tube, gas key, bolt rings...it happens and is factored into the design. That said, you should always run 3 rings that fit tight enough to hold the bolt carrier vertically without the cam pin installed. |
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Originally Posted By Nobody69s: Might as well order extra firing pins, firing pin retainer, extractors, and o-rings. I would never pay that much much money for extractors. I already have retainers, but I don't have spare pins. I just have one one along with a complete fn bolt and cam pin in my end of the world cleaning kit |
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Originally Posted By FedDC: First hand experience...you can run it on 1 ring, installed either way. Its crazy overgassed for what it does as the design assumes mass production with very little hand fitting. In the original TMs for the M-16A1, the armorer was literally told to fire 3 blank cartridges anytime they removed the FSB or gas tube from the FSB in order to "seal up" the gas system with carbon. You see carbon leakage throughout the gas system...around the FSB, around the gas tube, gas key, bolt rings...it happens and is factored into the design. That said, you should always run 3 rings that fit tight enough to hold the bolt carrier vertically without the cam pin installed. I respectfully disagree that its not an advantage to have all the sharp edges to the rear. Couple of good reasons for it. |
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Originally Posted By SSeric02: The technical manual (TM) doesn't reference the bolt rings having a "sharp" side or need to orient them one way or the other. I suspect any edge would be worn off after a few rounds anyways. Thats true and every Japanese motorcycle I ever worked on the official service manuals didn't mention to have all the metal plates sharp edges oriented in a stack. That was one of the greatest engine building secrets unknown for a long time. Just because its not in there....... |
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Originally Posted By OTDR: Is that just your opinion or based on sound scientific evidence? The fact that if you take one completely out things work just fine should tell you something. Having to have the rings sharp side back is just as big a myth as you have to have the gaps staggered. |
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Originally Posted By lysanderxiii: The fact that if you take one completely out things work just fine should tell you something. Having to have the rings sharp side back is just as big a myth as you have to have the gaps staggered. Originally Posted By lysanderxiii: Originally Posted By OTDR: Is that just your opinion or based on sound scientific evidence? The fact that if you take one completely out things work just fine should tell you something. Having to have the rings sharp side back is just as big a myth as you have to have the gaps staggered. Thanks, I was always under the presumption of flat side back. But, yea the gas rings I’ve found flipped and then I “corrected”…. all shot fine to begin with. |
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Originally Posted By FedDC: It doesn't matter so long as they fit correctly. The AR is overgassed anyway...whatever minimal difference this makes is irrelevant. This. OCD triggers aside. |
Can't never could 'til try came along.
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
R.I.P. to the EE
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
R.I.P. to the EE
| I was a small arms repairman in the mil for more than half of my 20 and I have never heard anything about a gas ring being installed a certain direction. Just make sure you have 3 and they support the weight of the BCG when resting the carrier vertically on an extended bolt. And lubricate the rings, especially when they are new. |
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading." -Thomas Jefferson
RIP TSgt Jason Norton and SSgt Brian McElroy. KIA 22 Jan 06, near Taji, Iraq.
LaRue Armorer
Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
RIP TSgt Jason Norton and SSgt Brian McElroy. KIA 22 Jan 06, near Taji, Iraq.
LaRue Armorer
Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
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It doesn't hurt to change the gas rings every so often as a preventative measure. It sounds to me like the orientation of the gas rings is to do with the fear that it'll wear out quicker one way or the other. If that is the fear, it's better to not worry about prolonging the piece but rather changing it out quick enough so that it doesn't reach breaking point. In my experience with worn gas rings or broken gas rings is that the rifle will still function pretty well. For broken gas rings, the easiest way to tell is if the bcg just slides out of the upper when you tilt it with the bolt fully closed. The easiest way to tell of a worn gas ring, without testing the upside down thing, is that your case will suddenly eject differently from what it was doing before. In my case, it would just drop out on the ground or fly forward of the rifle instead of to the back. The rifle will still shoot fine but you just replace at your next cleaning interval. |
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Originally Posted By lysanderxiii: The fact that if you take one completely out things work just fine should tell you something. Having to have the rings sharp side back is just as big a myth as you have to have the gaps staggered. That. Doesn’t matter even a tiny bit. |
Point shooting will give you monkeypox. - John_Wayne777
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
The Emu War could have been won if the Australians used red dots on their handguns.
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How about these one piece gas rings? Are these GTG? https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Kaw-Valley-Precision-AR-15-One-Piece-Gas-Ring-p/kvp-gasring.htm |
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Originally Posted By CATM: Just make sure you have 3 and they support the weight of the BCG when resting the carrier vertically on an extended bolt. Except this oft-repeated test is wrong. The test, such as it is, is to support the weight of the BOLT, not the CARRIER. |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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Attached File Attached File |
Can't never could 'til try came along.
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
R.I.P. to the EE
"All welchers should be removed from the EE".-Aimless
R.I.P. to the EE
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Originally Posted By lysanderxiii: How much if you line up all the ring gaps? And 4% is negligible. A 4% drop in cavity pressure is about 80 psi, typical ammunition pressure variations are larger than that . . . Yeah, BUT, it all adds up as part of the big picture. All ring gaps staggered vs lined up was not enough difference to measure. Another myth validated. The biggest loss is between a worn smooth gas tube vs a new gas tube, - 15%, you could easily hear the increase of air pressure loss streaming out. I also polished down a bolt tail from .250 to .248, 6% loss of gas pressure. I would have expected a lot more. Gas rings worn from .512 new, to .498 showed 5% loss. I tested difference between 3 rings and 2 rings and 1 ring. Not much difference, no wonder the gun runs on 1 ring. 2 years ago I bought some Colt Police trade ins, they looked new, almost not fired, but they were. Gas tubes were worn smooth on the top were you cant see it without gauging or removing it to inspect. Bottom line is, the gun runs if the gas port is the correct size. |
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: Except this oft-repeated test is wrong. The test, such as it is, is to support the weight of the BOLT, not the CARRIER. ^Absolutely correct, per the TO. We tested with the weight of the carrier because gas rings were cheap and plentiful in our benchstock. Did it make a notable difference? No. But we were conducting pre-embarkation inspections and err'd on the side of caution when inspecting deploying weapons heading to the theater of operations/OCONUS. Gas rings are cheap enough that I still use the weight of the carrier as my test today. Is this overkill? Certainly. But it costs me a buck in parts, so I do it. |
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading." -Thomas Jefferson
RIP TSgt Jason Norton and SSgt Brian McElroy. KIA 22 Jan 06, near Taji, Iraq.
LaRue Armorer
Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
RIP TSgt Jason Norton and SSgt Brian McElroy. KIA 22 Jan 06, near Taji, Iraq.
LaRue Armorer
Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
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Oh, and many people think that the reason bolt rings wear out is because the edges wear away. This is not the case. While the edges certainly do get very smooth, the primary reason gas begins to leak past them is the bolt rings collapses. If you look at the images below you can see that the worn rings have a reduced gap.  
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