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Posted: 1/26/2025 3:24:07 PM EDT
| If there are ballistic comparisons for this I haven’t found this. I realize that for bear defense when bowhunting some people are talking about carrying a glock 10mm, and I have heard that it is comparable to a .357 magnum. For short short range effectiveness how would a 12.5” 556 ar pistol compare to a cmmg banshee 8” barreled 10mm? Maybe a dumb comparison, but when considering just walking in the woods around the farm having something with you, which would be better? And this may be a topic for the home or anything else. Just wondering how they would compare? Thank you for any replies? |
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I choose a 12.5" small-frame 308 for that role. a part from the ammo, it weighs the same as a similarly configured 556, but packs a lot more power. Attached File |
| Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate the tips, we don’t have brown bears, just black bears, but my wife has seen a cougar within 50 yards of the house, and there are a bunch of coyotes in our area. Seems predators are becoming way more prevalent, and everything else seems to be disappearing quickly. I honestly wouldn’t want to take a walk through the woods without something. I am thinking a glock in 10mm would probably be fine, or an ar pistol, , but wondering thoughts? Btw, What 308 is that, and are parts proprietary? How much difference does the short barrel make on it? |
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I’m not the most knowledgeable when it comes to bear defense, nor am I saying a 12.5” 5.56 is the right answer, but generally speaking, pistol calibers are discussed in regards to bears specifically because they can be chambered in handgun sized platforms. The vast majority of people are only going to be at risk of encountering bears when out in wilderness areas away from home, where a small, easily carried sidearm is much more useful than a long gun that likely won’t be in hand when you need it. If you’re willing to accept the tradeoffs inherent to a long gun based platform (even if it’s legally a “pistol”), I’d have to imagine you can find something that’ll be more effective than 10mm. In for answers either way. My guess would be one of the large bore AR cartridges (.450 BM, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, etc). Hell, even a heavier .300BLK loading might do it. |
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It's a POF Rogue. It takes a lot of AR15 parts, but other parts are proprietary. But it's dimensions are the same as an AR15 except the magwell. You could also chop down a Ruger SFAR for cheaper. A 12" 308 is either slinging same-weight projectiles hundreds of fps faster than a 16" 7.62x39 (2700fps vs 2350fps 125gr) or much heavier bullets at about the same velocity for much higher energy and better ballistics. |
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Originally Posted By Daggertt: It's a POF Rogue. It takes a lot of AR15 parts, but other parts are proprietary. But it's dimensions are the same as an AR15 except the magwell. You could also chop down a Ruger SFAR for cheaper. A 12" 308 is either slinging same-weight projectiles hundreds of fps faster than a 16" 7.62x39 (2700fps vs 2350fps 125gr) or much heavier bullets at about the same velocity for much higher energy and better ballistics. Just curious, what load are you seeing 2700 fps from a 12.5 inch 308? |
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Originally Posted By BULLDAWG_556: Just curious, what load are you seeing 2700 fps from a 12.5 inch 308? Mk319 130gr looks to get 2700-2800 out of a 13" scar. Other people reporting higher speed 12.5 308 velocities are using 125gr Hornady sst or VMAX, etc. Others are getting 2800-2900fps with those bullets out of a 16" barrel. Why? What kind of velocities are you seeing? |
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Originally Posted By BULLDAWG_556: Thanks... I'm not seeing any, yet. I've been toying with the idea of a 12.5 in 308. I've never shot anyone with a short 308 but an SF team i worked with in Afghanistan told me they were getting kills out to 600m with their 13" scars. As a small frame I'd take a short 308 over any other short barrel caliber such as 458 socom, 6.5g, 300blk, etc for hunting or animal protection. And certainly over any pistol caliber, if a long gun is already an option. |
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In non brown bear area, either should be fine for a woods gun. With a note that a 12" 5.56 will be effective out to MUCH further ranger than an 8" 10mm. Comparing the 2, you can look at lots of energy and velocity numbers, but range is wjere these 2 will get remarkably different. I haven't ran the numbers, but it's unlikely that you'd want to deer hubt with a 10mm past 30ish yard. 556 will easily bring you to 100 yard range. This gets into a muddier topic, but I think thr point is made. I bought a 10mm glock "because bears". And after doing a ton of research I came to the conclusion that everything in my area will easily die by 9mm. So whatever. Black bears don't require nearly as much gun as brown bears. Buy whichever new gun you are looking at because it sounds like you need a new gun. |
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Originally Posted By SteveJobs: Buy whichever new gun you are looking at because it sounds like you need a new gun. Don’t we all!, lol  I m thinking 10mm glock will probably be what I will go with, but I think your right I might need a couple, that 308 looks mighty sweet! Thank you all for the discussion and answers. |
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I have a 10.5 ar and a Glock 20 10mm. If hunting I’d rather have the g20 on My hip. Same goes if hiking in the woods or fishing. I also reload so I do have full power loads. I think the 10mm will hit harder than the light 5.56 will. You can also get a 6 inch barrel for the g20 too. |
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Originally Posted By Daggertt: I choose a 12.5" small-frame 308 for that role. a part from the ammo, it weighs the same as a similarly configured 556, but packs a lot more power. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/0ce923b1-01da-4668-980f-7738d75a636d_jpe-3445908.JPG That is a nice rig. Where did you find that URX handguard. I am planing a build with the riflespeed gas block and that set up looks perfect. |
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I’m no ballistic expert or bear expert for that matter. When comparing the effectiveness of a MP5 in 9mm or 10mm to a SBR for entry work against people… There’s really no comparison. A rifle, especially with the heavier rounds 77gr OTM or 75gr Gold Dot (bonded) would always be my choice. For bear I’d assume their tough hide and fat layer would make me lean towards the Gold Dot to dig deeper. |
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Originally Posted By evilyoda: That is a nice rig. Where did you find that URX handguard. I am planing a build with the riflespeed gas block and that set up looks perfect. Originally Posted By evilyoda: Originally Posted By Daggertt: I choose a 12.5" small-frame 308 for that role. a part from the ammo, it weighs the same as a similarly configured 556, but packs a lot more power. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/0ce923b1-01da-4668-980f-7738d75a636d_jpe-3445908.JPG That is a nice rig. Where did you find that URX handguard. I am planing a build with the riflespeed gas block and that set up looks perfect. These days it's going to be 4-5x that on the ee if you find one I guess. But the length is 10.75" The URX4 has the same length and they are less scarce. Here's a riflespeed on a midlength 12.5" barrel with a 10.75" URX4. Attached File Or a riflespeed on a 10.5" barrel with an 8.5" URX4 Attached File Or an 18"rifle length gas with a URX4 13" Attached File If your handguard/gas system combo requires a different configuration, riflespeed has you covered. 14.5" midlength with URX4 13" Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Daggertt: sorry man, I had it from years ago when you could just order them for $200. These days it's going to be 4-5x that on the ee if you find one I guess. But the length is 10.75" The URX4 has the same length and they are less scarce. Here's a riflespeed on a midlength 12.5" barrel with a 10.75" URX4. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/e5a0892d-7c60-4144-8de2-fbe63261273a_jpe-3494400.JPG Or a riflespeed on a 10.5" barrel with an 8.5" URX4 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/c19bdf28-c456-490d-b0f6-1bacb24fec91_jpe-3494401.JPG Or an 18"rifle length gas with a URX4 13" https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/a2cd0597-9eb6-4ec8-b4e1-64562c72466a_jpe-3494402.JPG If your handguard/gas system combo requires a different configuration, riflespeed has you covered. 14.5" midlength with URX4 13" https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/80f4b4e6-ab8b-4a6b-90fc-eba3568e0ad0__1_-3494403.JPG Originally Posted By Daggertt: Originally Posted By evilyoda: Originally Posted By Daggertt: I choose a 12.5" small-frame 308 for that role. a part from the ammo, it weighs the same as a similarly configured 556, but packs a lot more power. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/0ce923b1-01da-4668-980f-7738d75a636d_jpe-3445908.JPG That is a nice rig. Where did you find that URX handguard. I am planing a build with the riflespeed gas block and that set up looks perfect. These days it's going to be 4-5x that on the ee if you find one I guess. But the length is 10.75" The URX4 has the same length and they are less scarce. Here's a riflespeed on a midlength 12.5" barrel with a 10.75" URX4. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/e5a0892d-7c60-4144-8de2-fbe63261273a_jpe-3494400.JPG Or a riflespeed on a 10.5" barrel with an 8.5" URX4 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/c19bdf28-c456-490d-b0f6-1bacb24fec91_jpe-3494401.JPG Or an 18"rifle length gas with a URX4 13" https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/a2cd0597-9eb6-4ec8-b4e1-64562c72466a_jpe-3494402.JPG If your handguard/gas system combo requires a different configuration, riflespeed has you covered. 14.5" midlength with URX4 13" https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/80f4b4e6-ab8b-4a6b-90fc-eba3568e0ad0__1_-3494403.JPG Thank you very much. I was going to get the Geiselle MK4 10.5 because they are one of the few guys that actually list the inside dimension (1.35") I wanted to go with the rifle speed without the extension on a 13.9 G barrel and with the exposed rifle speed knobs. Also wanted to put the JP Enterprises captive buffer system. There are a few variables that I wanted to figure out, I reallly like the LWRC ultra compact stock but need to make sure to get the correct JP buffer system to fit. Your guns look really really good. |
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Originally Posted By evilyoda: Thank you very much. I was going to get the Geiselle MK4 10.5 because they are one of the few guys that actually list the inside dimension (1.35") I wanted to go with the rifle speed without the extension on a 13.9 G barrel and with the exposed rifle speed knobs. Also wanted to put the JP Enterprises captive buffer system. There are a few variables that I wanted to figure out, I reallly like the LWRC ultra compact stock but need to make sure to get the correct JP buffer system to fit. Your guns look really really good. I dont think the riflespeed needs a special extra large internal diameter. It works under a bcm mcmr as well, for example. Attached File |
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These playlists have a bunch of stuff on AR pistols, SBR's & shorter barreled rifles. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA2cKjTRR6Qe3MbpFwzrV7go7opT56Ot9&si=5k6nzaUrwQPNd1bk https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA2cKjTRR6QcvDGkdboKUqNraZJMpgzy_&si=Rf6IxQCr6yTQYc7U This guy's channel does a lot of stuff on shooting animals with pistols vs rifles, etc. https://www.youtube.com/@ChukesOutdoorAdventures/videos |
| For black bear I wouldn't feel under gunned with a 12.5" AR shooting a 62gr. Or 64gr. Bonded bullet. I have an 11.5" AR shooting 62gr. TBBC handloads that routinely take down big boar hogs with no trouble. I've not taken a black bear, but seeing how these bonded bullets perform on big hogs, I'd feel confident they'd get the job done. |
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A 10mm Glock in a brace with holster would make a viable PDW, and you'd be more likely to have it then a slung rifle. https://recovertactical.com/product/recover-tactical-20-21-stabilizer-kit-for-10mm-45acp-large-frame-glocks/ |
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Originally Posted By skylane: You have mountain lions in Ohio? For perspective: my bro works for the DNR in Iowa. They get a couple mountain lions per year that move from west to east through the state, some tagged and some tracked, coming from the Black Hills. Young males in search of territory are known to travel hundreds to over a thousand miles from their point of origin. The major riverways provide them excellent travel corridors that are stocked with shelter, hiding places, food, and water. The can swim if the journey requires it and have been known to use bridges on occasion. They move right through the suburbs and city of Des Moines, and despite being in these densely populated areas, are not usually seen and even more rarely are recorded/noticed by private surveillance cameras/security personnel or home & business owners. (That said, an inordinate number of people report house, stray, farm & feral cats to the DNR as mountain lions. Turns out it is far, far, far more common for people *think* they saw mountain lion, than actually see one.) There's been verified DNA evidence that a female from the Black Hills made it to Tennessee. There's good reason to suspect there are mountain lions breeding in Tennessee at this point, as there's been females and males documented there. So, the Ohio River Valley seems like it'd have a bunch of natural corridors for them, and given the known extent of migrations, it follows. ---------------------------------- But, as far as an AR pistol for bears, here's what I did for backcountry short-range large & dangerous animal defense .458 SOCOM pistol:   Swapped a few things around between pictures, and I realize need to get a better scale picture. 70 oz. puts it in the same weight range as a lot of the large frame revolvers chambered rifle and large handgun cartridges such as .454 Cassul, .460 S&W, .45-70. DFA (Dead Foot Arms) MCS (modified cycle system). Hughes Ballistics titanium carrier. Tromix bolt. Faxon barrel. This is also a lightweight build for back country, but it should drop about anything in North America you can hit. It's not necessarily the way to go for a situation where you can handle the extra weight of a stock or a brace, but the concept is there. -------------------- But, as fun as that is to build, if I were in your shoes, I'd get a decently powerful, but not hard to control handgun that is convenient to carry. 10mm would be an excellent choice. I'd expect nearly any encounter you could have could be solved by a warning shot, based on the scenario. I'd add a small light & laser, as most predators like to hunt at dawn & dusk, meaning your chances of an encounter in dim lighting rises. For other walkers' and their pets' safety, and for the sureness of your shot, it's worth it. Personally, I'd even feel fine in your scenario with a 9mm with +p or +p+ ammo, preferably with hard cast for penetration. |
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Originally Posted By Moultrie: Neither, get a shotgun, shoot slugs. I can't really disagree. Since we are going big. You can also build a .458 Socom and get the fire power of slugs with better accuracy in the same form factor as an AR15. They end up being pretty lightweight all things considered. More or less it's a 45-70 that is STANAG friendly. Capacity is going to be close enough to a 12 gauge shotgun. .458 Pill at 450 grains is about 1 oz. Both 12 gauge and .458 both have a similar bullet drop at 250 yards as well. Buffalo Bore: 458 SOCOM HUNTING & SNIPING AMMO 400 gr. JFN (1550 fps / 2,134 ft.lbs.) Remington Slugger: Load - 2-3/4" 1 oz. Rifled Slug 1 Oz Slug (1560 FPS/ 2361 foot pounds)  Slugs are definitely cheaper per round though. Fixed Typos. |
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