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How much longer is the 123gr A-Max with the .510 BC?
I'd also be interested to know how much BC you lose by taking out the polymer tip. It would be interesting to see if you could get loads worked up that were the same MV and then chrono them at 100 yards and see how much more velocity the ones with the tips removed lost. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
The Polymer tips come off very easy, I used a set of jewelers pliers to takeit right off in less than a second. The difference in BC is minimal w/ the tips removed. I will try them both w/ and w/o the tips in place, The Polymer tip weighs just under 1 grain. How much do you think the BC is reduced? When I talked to Randy “RG” Robinett, at BIB bullets about is 25 cal match bullets he told me that reducing the the melplat area is yields the best improvement in BC. When I compare the 90 gn Sierra HPBT to the Sierra 90 gn BK, the bullets are more or less pretty similar... boattail length/angle, shank length and ogive length etc. The melplat on the two bullets is quite different, the 90 gn HPBT is much larger than the 90 gn BK. Hence the BC for the 90 gn Sierra HPBT is 0.255 whilst the BC for the Sierra 90 gn BK is about 0.388. There is also quite a difference in the BC between the Sierra 100gn MK and 100 gn GK, 0.394 and 0.355, respectively. Granted the ogive on the Sierra 100gn MK is much more streamline but melplat is also smaller. (Sierra uses variable BC, depending of velocity. I gave the highest value). It will be very informative to see the two chrono results. Good luck with the test and keep us informed. |
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Originally Posted By 320pf:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
The Polymer tips come off very easy, I used a set of jewelers pliers to takeit right off in less than a second. The difference in BC is minimal w/ the tips removed. I will try them both w/ and w/o the tips in place, The Polymer tip weighs just under 1 grain. How much do you think the BC is reduced? When I talked to Randy “RG” Robinett, at BIB bullets about is 25 cal match bullets he told me that reducing the the melplat area is yields the best improvement in BC. When I compare the 90 gn Sierra HPBT to the Sierra 90 gn BK, the bullets are more or less pretty similar... boattail length/angle, shank length and ogive length etc. The melplat on the two bullets is quite different, the 90 gn HPBT is much larger than the 90 gn BK. Hence the BC for the 90 gn Sierra HPBT is 0.255 whilst the BC for the Sierra 90 gn BK is about 0.388. There is also quite a difference in the BC between the Sierra 100gn MK and 100 gn GK, 0.394 and 0.355, respectively. Granted the ogive on the Sierra 100gn MK is much more streamline but melplat is also smaller. (Sierra uses variable BC, depending of velocity. I gave the highest value). It will be very informative to see the two chrono results. Good luck with the test and keep us informed. I'll post the results after the range session is complete...I'm very Interested to see what the results will be as well. I will use the Lumix HD camera to post the video clips and should have the ballistic gel ready as well, fingers crossed. We will as see some results the other bullet weights in: 85,95,100,120,125 and 144grs. for the 6.5mm PCC. Max. distance will be 100 yards for all loads. |
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Well got up to the woods on my brother private land...everthing was going fine...started to do some accuracy testing of a portable
shooting bench... 
The left target was w/ a Pentax Red Dot sight @ 100 Yards during Initial sight-in...The right side target was w/ a Simmons 44 Mag 6-20 power scope (the last of the well made 44 Mag series made circa 1990). 
Not to bad for a 10 shot group w/ the 123gr. Sierra MK's...Silver Dollar size group @ 100 yards for Initial testing... Then tragedy struck, my brother decided to try is brand new Ruger LCP .380 pocket pistol to get a velocity reading... 
After laughing our gutts out for a couple of minutes...we realized we didn't have the back-up chrono w/ us...who knew that little Ruger could kick like a Mule Next time he will be a bit more carefull...The tiny sights didn't help either...That shooting Chrony was pretty crappy anyway. So, needless to say velocity testing never started w/ the 6.5mm PCC for the day...The weather also turned crappy on the second day as well...we will have to wait till the next trip out to do some more testing with accuracy and velocity for the 6.5mm PCC. The Ballistic Gel will have to wait in the fridge was well... Well at least Joey had some rapidfire fun...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH0sKmH36qI |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
August still looking realistic for dies? How can we light a fire under the hold up? My 18" middy barrel and Noveske switch block are with DBMG for conversion to MRP and expect them back soon. Hello Jason, I will give the die manufacturer a call on Monday for a update. I'm really pissed that it has taken this long to begin with... as you may already know my original quote was for 16 to 18 weeks back in December of 2010 ! I've tried several times to find-out if there was anything I can do to help thing along/speed things up, but no dice...I even asked if I could have the dies to send to a different heat treating vendor (at extra cost to me), still no dice... Guess I will have to wait some more.... 
Nedless to say, I will likely never use this die manufacturer again...live and learn I guess. I was originally attracted to the reputation of quality with this company as well as reasonable pricepoint...Oh well... What did they say? |
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
August still looking realistic for dies? How can we light a fire under the hold up? My 18" middy barrel and Noveske switch block are with DBMG for conversion to MRP and expect them back soon. Hello Jason, I will give the die manufacturer a call on Monday for a update. I'm really pissed that it has taken this long to begin with... as you may already know my original quote was for 16 to 18 weeks back in December of 2010 ! I've tried several times to find-out if there was anything I can do to help thing along/speed things up, but no dice...I even asked if I could have the dies to send to a different heat treating vendor (at extra cost to me), still no dice... Guess I will have to wait some more....
Nedless to say, I will likely never use this die manufacturer again...live and learn I guess. I was originally attracted to the reputation of quality with this company as well as reasonable pricepoint...Oh well... What did they say? Well the drama continues with the die Manufacturer, here are the answers I got from the owner: Q:What is the current status on the die sets, my customers are getting very upset...? A: "Dies are still at Heat Treater." Q: Wow,any Idea how much longer? A: "If I could give any kind of honest answer to that I would quit making dies & work as a psychic, which I am sure pays better. I can tell you this. If I call the heat treat shop every week wamting to know when the stuff will be done they won't do it at all." Needless to say this is totally unacceptable treatment to a paying customer. |
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Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
I'm still here, it has been a crazy month, Worked in Nashville for a week, worked in Michigan for a week, working 12 hours a night the week in-between trips, this week volunteering for tornado relief. Finally had some time today to test the 144gr Lapua, used H335, velocity a little lower than I had hoped for, 2035 fps was the best out of the 18", 2102 fps out of the 22". I am going to try several different powders, I think the 1680 may be the ticket out of the 18", it seems to be a denser powder than the 335. As you can see below, powder capacity is killed with the long bullet. http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/IMAG0626.jpg You find any time to shoot lately? I'm still interested in real world velocity results out of the 18" with projectiles on the lighter end of the spectrum.... perhaps 85grain sierra varminters or similar 85/90 grainers. I should have the 18" 6.5PCC ready for my LMT MRP upper in the next few days. Thanks |
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
MRP magic below. New 18" mid gas 6.5PCC made it back from conversion at DBMG with Noveske switchblock installed. Need dies and AAC 762-SDN-6 suppressor now. Flash http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/New65-2.jpg No Flash http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/New65-1.jpg Not installed next to 12.5" 6.8 http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/New6568.jpg Wow that looks great Jason, lets get you set-up with some rounds so you smoke a few down range...we will need to get get you set-up with a brand new Heckler & Koch 416 AR magazine to go with those nice and shiny 6.5mm PCC rounds for some field testing  .
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OK, finally got some good news on the dies..."They should be shipping by next Friday" according to the manufacturer.
Its been a very long road for all of us here who are waiting for these dies...lesson learned is they will never get my business again having to wait almost 10 months for prepaid dies when they quoted me 18 weeks (4.5 months).
Jason, let me know the COL w/ the mag(s) you plan to use... |
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Our next project in the comming weeks will be a 6.8mm PCC version for all the 6.8mm fans of the AR-15/Black Rifle platform...Needless to say I will not be using the
same die manufacturer as I did for the 6.5mm PCC round...I will most likely will be using either: Lee Precision,Hornady or Redding this time around. Stay tuned fellas. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Our next project in the comming weeks will be a 6.8mm PCC version for all the 6.8mm fans of the AR-15/Black Rifle platform...Needless to say I will not be using the same die manufacturer as I did for the 6.5mm PCC round...I will most likely will be using either: Lee Precision,Hornady or Redding this time around. Stay tuned fellas. Staying tuned..... I would prefer the 68 version myself |
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Originally Posted By marinesg1012:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Our next project in the comming weeks will be a 6.8mm PCC version for all the 6.8mm fans of the AR-15/Black Rifle platform...Needless to say I will not be using the same die manufacturer as I did for the 6.5mm PCC round...I will most likely will be using either: Lee Precision,Hornady or Redding this time around. Stay tuned fellas. Staying tuned..... I would prefer the 68 version myself Marines' I will keep everyone updated as I progress through the maze of work, and through all the phases of the project with the new 6.8mm PCC round. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
OK, finally got some good news on the dies..."They should be shipping by next Friday" according to the manufacturer. Its been a very long road for all of us here who are waiting for these dies...lesson learned is they will never get my business again having to wait almost 10 months for prepaid dies when they quoted me 18 weeks (4.5 months).
Woo hoooo!!! |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By marinesg1012:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Our next project in the comming weeks will be a 6.8mm PCC version for all the 6.8mm fans of the AR-15/Black Rifle platform...Needless to say I will not be using the same die manufacturer as I did for the 6.5mm PCC round...I will most likely will be using either: Lee Precision,Hornady or Redding this time around. Stay tuned fellas. Staying tuned..... I would prefer the 68 version myself Marines' I will keep everyone updated as I progress through the maze of work, and through all the phases of the project with the new 6.8mm PCC round. make sure you stop over at the 68 forums and let us know over there as well.... If it helps I had some dies on order from the same company and they finally shipped the other day as well, it was for a different caliber but MAYBE they are catching up. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
OK, finally got some good news on the dies..."They should be shipping by next Friday" according to the manufacturer. Its been a very long road for all of us here who are waiting for these dies...lesson learned is they will never get my business again having to wait almost 10 months for prepaid dies when they quoted me 18 weeks (4.5 months).
Jason, let me know the COL w/ the mag(s) you plan to use... Might like 10 long loaded and 10 that will fit deribbed pmags. Looking forward to those dies also! Thanks Regarding the 6.8PCC project I am curious if you are looking to achieve capacity beyond what would be possible by a 7.62x40wt case necked down (as there might be some nice synergies there). |
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Yes Jason you are correct the main reason the shoulder of the case was not lowered was do to the fact I refused to lessen the case
capacity and wanted just the opposite...what I did do was to shorten the top end (from the case mouth) of the shoulder and made it shorter while still having enough case neck length to sustain proper tension. IIRC the Pmags have a maximum COL of 2.272"...I think the Pmag 20 rounders are the easiest to de-ribb, as the mag body has basically no curve to it and once you remove the mag components it's a very simple job...I have even tried them w/o de-ribbing and they work fine provided you reduce the round count by a few rounds... Jason, I also have the brand new Troy Industries AR mags (they seem to be very well made) that I want you to Independently evaluate along with the German made HK 416 marine steel magazine. The Troy mags are polymer and made in the USA. Speaking of HK AR mags, I am in the process of getting a limited quantity of the South Korean made steel marine mags that are licensed by HK of Germany. They are very well made, and are basically Identical to the HK's at a third the price. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Finally, they are shipping the first batch today via Fedex ground. As I get them I will ship them-out ASAP via Priority Mail Service. In your case Jason its easier to pick it up along w/ the other stuff we talked about... Perfect. Cant wait! |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Happy Days are finally here, I will be shipping out the die sets on Friday via First Class/Priority Mail Service. Big Thanks for all that have waited so diligently. Happy Shooting/Hunting to all ! Let me know when we can meet up tomorrow! |
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OK Guys, all the die sets were shipped out today via USPS Priority (boy are they getting expensive)...everyone will have them by Tuesday the latest.
Gus, you will get both delivered as one package...email or call me if you have any questions or need specific load data. I'm going to have Jason do some light duty velocity/load testing out of his LMT 18" upper, thanks for your help Jason. He will also be testing the HK 416 Marine AR Magazine as well as the Troy Industries Polymer AR mags... Thanks to all you guys for your support on this project. |
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Originally Posted By firemannw:
When do you plan to do some real world testing with Hornady's 123 A-Max? This is the bullet that I am real interested in to see some data with an 18" barrel. I will be doing that but may have to send my barrel back to BHW for polish or replacement given what appear to be welts from a rough chamber on the first few shots. 
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Originally Posted By firemannw:
When do you plan to do some real world testing with Hornady's 123 A-Max? This is the bullet that I am real interested in to see some data with an 18" barrel. I will be doing that but may have to send my barrel back to BHW for polish or replacement given what appear to be welts from a rough chamber on the first few shots. http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/brasseval1.jpg Jason definitely call BHW and let them know of the problem they may just replace the barrel altogether...That is not exceptable for a new barrel, it may very well explain the big velocity differences and occasional short stroking Issues... Speak to Gale or Carl the owner, they will make it right. All the ones that I handled I checked the chambers and bores and they looked great. Yours of course went directly from BHW to that specialty shop and I wasn't able to check the chamber and bore on yours... |
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I will ask for replacement as the amount of polishing it would take to correct that welt would probably put it out of spec.
ETA: Spoke with BHW and they say they will take care of everything (will see). Will ship the barrel back tomorrow. |
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Originally Posted By GustusJ:
Got mine today! Maybe I'll have time to assemble a rifle this weekend. I'll sure trim some brass and pull a handle! Thanks! That's great Gus,hope to see you get some great results...just remember to break it in using the 1-2-3 system of break-in style (shoot clean, shoot,shoot clean, shoot,shoot,shoot clean etc., then back to 1) once you reach about 100 rounds you should be good. Its a bit of a PITA but thats the way it should be done. Looking forward to see your build and range report, good luck. |
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I have been following this cartridge and the posts for a few months. As a way of introduction, I have owned AR’s since the ‘80s. Starting out with a Colt A1, when they were still called “….guns by Matel”. Started looking for an alternative to the 6.8 SPC, when the brass and supply of inexpensive magazines dried up this summer. I can get once fired 5.56 brass at the scrap price, so I went looking for a cartridge.
Got in on the initial lot of CH4D 6.5PCC Dies, and have been working out trial setups since October 2nd. The barrel is on order from BHW and should be here in 4-6 weeks. Price wise it’s looking at about $1K to start shooting, i.e. barreled upper, dies, parts to setup my Dillon, and a volume case trimmer. Couple of questions for the group…. 1.Any safety concerns with accidently loading a 5.56 NATO in a 6.5PCC? I don’t think you can get bolt lock with a 6.5 or 6.8 in a 5.56 NATO barrel 2.Does anyone fire form their cases without the bullet, and if so what loading have you used? 3.Other then the few loads posted. What has everyone been using as a base load to work up from? (i.e. .223TCU) 4.Is anyone actively working on a crimp die (Lee) that will work for the short neck on the 6.5PCC? I have a 6.5x55 which is too long and while I can cut it down, does any one have the measurements? Thanks in advance, Erich |
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Originally Posted By eweinfur:
I have been following this cartridge and the posts for a few months. As a way of introduction, I have owned AR’s since the ‘80s. Starting out with a Colt A1, when they were still called “….guns by Matel”. Started looking for an alternative to the 6.8 SPC, when the brass and supply of inexpensive magazines dried up this summer. I can get once fired 5.56 brass at the scrap price, so I went looking for a cartridge. Got in on the initial lot of CH4D 6.5PCC Dies, and have been working out trial setups since October 2nd. The barrel is on order from BHW and should be here in 4-6 weeks. Price wise it’s looking at about $1K to start shooting, i.e. barreled upper, dies, parts to setup my Dillon, and a volume case trimmer. Couple of questions for the group…. 1.Any safety concerns with accidently loading a 5.56 NATO in a 6.5PCC? I don’t think you can get bolt lock with a 6.5 or 6.8 in a 5.56 NATO barrel A:If you mistakenly fire 5.56 NATO round in a 6.5PCC chamber you will likely just spit the case, should have no Ill affects...You can't fire a 6.5 PCC roundin a 5.56 NATO chamber, the round will stick-out the chamber more than a half/three quarters of a Inch, bolt won't close. 2.Does anyone fire form their cases without the bullet, and if so what loading have you used? A:Most of the 6.5 PCC guys will not fireform any brass w/o a bullet,you will be just wasting primers...just use full house loads just below max. pressure and presto you have a fireformed case once you fire the round. 3.Other then the few loads posted. What has everyone been using as a base load to work up from? (i.e. .223TCU) A: Most guys are using the suggested 120gr. Speer SSP loads as they have proven very accurate and have had very good velocity from the 18" & 22" test barrels thus far from the H335 powder...Faster powders like AA1680,AA2230,H322 will work better w/ shorter 12"-18" barrel lengths 4.Is anyone actively working on a crimp die (Lee) that will work for the short neck on the 6.5PCC? I have a 6.5x55 which is too long and while I can cut it down, does any one have the measurements? A: Lee Precision has made a factory crimp die in 6.5 PCC for me, they have the prints/cartridge on file, a 6.5X55 crimp die may work provided the neck diameter is around .292"-.294" or so...It may need some light modification to the crimp die though... Thanks in advance, Erich I hope this answers some of your questions. Just email me w/ any further questions you may have. ETA: Just work-up slow w/ your loads, never start from max. Use safe reloading practices. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Loaded up some more 6.5mm PCC rounds, took this crappy phone pic of a new virgin Lake City 223/5.56 case trimmed to 1.645" and filled w/ H335 powder... http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_20111010_153451.jpg This is one reason I love to use LC brass for the 6.5 PCC round... What is the reason? Was that case sized to 6.5PCC? I thought LC 5.56 brass had slightly more material / less capacity. |
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Loaded up some more 6.5mm PCC rounds, took this crappy phone pic of a new virgin Lake City 223/5.56 case trimmed to 1.645" and filled w/ H335 powder... http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_20111010_153451.jpg This is one reason I love to use LC brass for the 6.5 PCC round... What is the reason? Was that case sized to 6.5PCC? I thought LC 5.56 brass had slightly more material / less capacity. from my experience it is just the opposite most of my lc brass has more capacity. |
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Loaded up some more 6.5mm PCC rounds, took this crappy phone pic of a new virgin Lake City 223/5.56 case trimmed to 1.645" and filled w/ H335 powder... http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_20111010_153451.jpg This is one reason I love to use LC brass for the 6.5 PCC round... What is the reason? Was that case sized to 6.5PCC? I thought LC 5.56 brass had slightly more material / less capacity. All the new/virgin LC brass I tested thus far has shown the best capacity (all over 31 grs.w/ H335 powder). They come factory annealed, and the primer flash holes are factory deburred as well. The brass in the pic is new LC 223/5.56 brass that was trimmed to 1.645" w/ the neck then expanded to 6.5mm. Yes normally the 5.56 brass has less case capacity vs. std .223 brass due to the thicker brass of the 5.56 NATO case. Apparently the LC brass is thicker only at the base of the case body...Go figure, I'll see If I can do a cutaway of some of the various brass case brands to see the difference in thickness. Winchester is my next favorite 223 brass, very good capacity, tight primer pockets, harder brass composition etc. Thanks, |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Loaded up some more 6.5mm PCC rounds, took this crappy phone pic of a new virgin Lake City 223/5.56 case trimmed to 1.645" and filled w/ H335 powder... http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_20111010_153451.jpg This is one reason I love to use LC brass for the 6.5 PCC round... What is the reason? Was that case sized to 6.5PCC? I thought LC 5.56 brass had slightly more material / less capacity. All the new/virgin LC brass I tested thus far has shown the best capacity (all over 31 grs.w/ H335 powder). They come factory annealed, and the primer flash holes are factory deburred as well. The brass in the pic is new LC 223/5.56 brass that was trimmed to 1.645" w/ the neck then expanded to 6.5mm. Yes normally the 5.56 brass has less case capacity vs. std .223 brass due to the thicker brass of the 5.56 NATO case. Apparently the LC brass is thicker only at the base of the case body...Go figure, I'll see If I can do a cutaway of some of the various brass case brands to see the difference in thickness. Winchester is my next favorite 223 brass, very good capacity, tight primer pockets, harder brass composition etc. Thanks, this is a misconception in 308 this is true but in 5.56 it is just the opposite. here is a chart from 6mmbr.com site 
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Originally Posted By BIGGDAWG:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Loaded up some more 6.5mm PCC rounds, took this crappy phone pic of a new virgin Lake City 223/5.56 case trimmed to 1.645" and filled w/ H335 powder... http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_20111010_153451.jpg This is one reason I love to use LC brass for the 6.5 PCC round... What is the reason? Was that case sized to 6.5PCC? I thought LC 5.56 brass had slightly more material / less capacity. All the new/virgin LC brass I tested thus far has shown the best capacity (all over 31 grs.w/ H335 powder). They come factory annealed, and the primer flash holes are factory deburred as well. The brass in the pic is new LC 223/5.56 brass that was trimmed to 1.645" w/ the neck then expanded to 6.5mm. Yes normally the 5.56 brass has less case capacity vs. std .223 brass due to the thicker brass of the 5.56 NATO case. Apparently the LC brass is thicker only at the base of the case body...Go figure, I'll see If I can do a cutaway of some of the various brass case brands to see the difference in thickness. Winchester is my next favorite 223 brass, very good capacity, tight primer pockets, harder brass composition etc. Thanks, this is a misconception in 308 this is true but in 5.56 it is just the opposite. here is a chart from 6mmbr.com site http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/BIGGDAWG800/223capcity.jpg Yes I have seen that chart before BigDawg and its fairly accurate... I also have similar results as well when I tried/compared them by manufacturer. The best way seems to be doing a cutaway to find out for sure. You are correct w/ the 308 brass as well, Thanks. |
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Things are starting to slow down, should get back to testing soon. I got home in the daylight Saturday, intended to get out the Patriot, but my youngest said she needed to practice because youth deer season starts this Friday. I left the Patriot in the safe, and got out the 223, I learned the hard way, that if you are going to take a kid fishing, hunting , or shooting, it needs to be all about them.
I loaded some 100 gr Partitions last night with the Patriot dies, if I can get time to test them before Friday, she will be taking the Patriot to the deer stand this weekend. Doc, I will get the TCU dies heading back to you this week. 
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Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Things are starting to slow down, should get back to testing soon. I got home in the daylight Saturday, intended to get out the Patriot, but my youngest said she needed to practice because youth deer season starts this Friday. I left the Patriot in the safe, and got out the 223, I learned the hard way, that if you are going to take a kid fishing, hunting , or shooting, it needs to be all about them. I loaded some 100 gr Partitions last night with the Patriot dies, if I can get time to test them before Friday, she will be taking the Patriot to the deer stand this weekend. Doc, I will get the TCU dies heading back to you this week. http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/IMAG0434.jpg It shouldn't be any other way. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
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