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User Panel
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2011 7:50:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: GB243]
[#1]
Originally Posted By uptown1:
As a user of .223 based wildcats and the Grendel, I can tell you the Grendel is gonna win out in a max power debate. We all know the benefits of .223 based cats, but the "show the snobs" and taking a tinkle on BA or JD is coming out the gate sideways If you're trying to promote a cartridge there are probably better ways, as said above, let it stand on its own merit. I've had several dealings with JD and have never had any issues. I'm becoming more and more partial to the 6.8x40mm at the range I use it for ( ~ 200yds max ) Makes power a little easier than the .25 and 6.5 with bullets around 85 grains. 2,970fps is effortless with a 85TSX and 26gr of 1680 out of a 16" barrel. Not quite as slick as the 6.5 but at 200yds I look more at how well the cartridge works rather than BC. Sounds like the 250 Savage formula ; 87gr @ 3000fps . 
ETA- I think I'll rename mine the "27-3000" 
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NM, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2011 12:21:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Why don't you just change over to .264 LBC-AR brass? It is the same as 6.5 Grendel, costs less and is available. Better quality too. Les Baer makes the barrels, uppers, etc. Dies are the same. Brass available through CSD: www.carsonspecdev.com.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2011 10:39:16 AM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By ProfAmmo:
Why don't you just change over to .264 LBC-AR brass? It is the same as 6.5 Grendel, costs less and is available. Better quality too. Les Baer makes the barrels, uppers, etc. Dies are the same. Brass available through CSD: www.carsonspecdev.com. One of the reasons is the added price of the components, example: for the same price of 100 pieces of Grendel brass I can get 500 pieces of new LC .223 brass...The Grendel is considerbly more expensive to shoot and reload than the .223/5.56 based rounds. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 1/25/2011 9:40:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Reamers on the way to Black Hole Weaponry, we are getting closer.
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AL, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2011 11:01:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1-Wolverine]
[#5]
It has been a crazy weekend, got the 18" Black Hole Weaponry barrel Friday, did not get a chance to put the upper together until after church today, did not get load put together until just before dark.
My quad rail was supposed to be here Thursday, it still is not here, I put it together anyway. I am leaving tonight for a two day hog hunt, my brother is picking me up at 10pm, and I will be testing the PCC on hogs. I got the 120gr Hot-Cor sighted a couple inches low at 25 yards, moved to a 100 yards it was two inches high, dialed it down 4 clicks, and shot twice more, before I ran out of daylight, One shot one clean is time consuming. I know two shots, is not a group but I am very happy with a 1/2", and I am ready for hogs. When I get back I will get the chronograph out and see how close the computer is to the real thing, and try a few different bullets 
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LA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2011 11:32:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
~1.660" case with a PUP neck ? |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2011 9:14:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#7]
Originally Posted By uptown1:
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/IMAG0474.jpg ~1.660" case with a PUP neck ? Yes,basically, didn't want to loose case capacity so the shoulder length was trimmed and shoulder lowered to a softer angle,case body taper was slightly Increased from the base... Shoulder starts @ 1.445"...Case length @ around 41.XXmm...Dies used were slightly modified 6.5mm TCU, until the new dies are ready...Case necks will be longer once the new dies are made. Case fireformed capacity is slighly above 33.02 grs. (close to 7.62X39mm case capacity~ 33.7grs.) Unfireformed cases are around 29.8-30.01grs. case capacity. Fireformed velocities should be similar/slightly better than the 7.62X39mm of equal bullet weights/Bbl. lengths...Accuracy should be much better than the M43 Russian round. |
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Posted: 2/18/2011 11:25:41 PM EDT
[#8]
Awesome! !! Can't wait to see more results!
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 12:29:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By GustusJ:
Awesome! !! Can't wait to see more results! Velocity tests are spot on with the BHW 18" SS P3 1:8 Barrel...Accuracy even @ high wind conditions are still excellent @ 1" at 100 yards... Fuctioning has been excellent thus far...Computer ballistic modeling showed velocities of over 2,300 fps w/ the 120 gr. Speer SPHC out of a 18" barrel. Actual velocities were spot on @ 2,308 fps, 2,309 fps, 2,310 fps chronographed @ 15' from the muzzel...not only that but Paul said that there was still room in the case for more powder...thus capable of higher velocities...there was no evidence of high pressure at all. This puts the 6.5mm PCC round in the same power class as the 7.62X39 M43 Russian round, thus meeting our goals for this cartridge... While the M43 Russian round has the advantage in case capacity (33.72grs. vs. 33.02grs.) the 6.5 PCC still beats it in velocity/power w/ equal barrel lengths (18.5" bbl. M43 vs.18" bbl.for the 6.5 PCC). Computer modeling also shows the 6.5 PCC has a advantage with the 140 gr.Speer load vs. 150 gr.Speer/Hornady M43 loads ( 2,223 fps vs 2,058 for the M43). 
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AL, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 1:41:55 AM EDT
[#10]
I'm glad you guys with the time, knowledge and equipment are tackling this. Have you done some research on the number/percentage of persons who reload??? Is this round right in the middle of x, y and z with respec to performance??? What about a subsonic round with this load??? It's getting more difficult to fill niche requirements in the ammunition world. For the vast majority of us...we'll continue to purchase off the shelf 6.5, 6.8...5.7, 7.62x39 and 7.62 to make things happen. I'm not knocking your end state here...but as a consumer and overall interested American in munitions capabilities...I don't see it.
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 1:47:19 AM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By speederx7:
ok, stupid question, why not just buy a 6.5 grendel? brass and dies are readily available... Grendel is old, this is NEW. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 1:48:04 AM EDT
[#12]
ok, i am very interested in this round... i have never had a wild cat befor... but i do shoot the Model 1 Sales 6.5 sporter in a 20"
i have been thinking of putting togather a real light weight pack rifle for hunting purposes, i was thinking of using as much polymore and carbon fiber as posible, was thinking of using the plum crazy lower and a blackthorn polymore stripped upper reciever with a carbon fiber tube and rest as light as posible... becuase i want to use a polymore platform i have been weary of attempting this type of build with a 6.5 grendel (becuase of the presure involved) however i have been reading this thread and it seems to me that this 6.5 PCC might be just what i was looking for... i did consider the 7.62x40 for this build but i am also a 6.5 fan... i would like to try this wildcat but like i say i have never owned, loaded for or even shot a wildcat... i do handload for .308 long range rifles so i am not new to handloading... would this wildcat work in the light weight build i am considering??? how much$$$ would it cost me to get up and running??? i would want a 16" barrel with an effective kill range of 300 - 400 yds on mid-sized game "Texas White tail dear" and would a Carbine length gas sytem be ok for this round or would a midlength gas sytem be better??? |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 10:43:49 AM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By BravoSector1:
I'm glad you guys with the time, knowledge and equipment are tackling this. Have you done some research on the number/percentage of persons who reload??? Is this round right in the middle of x, y and z with respec to performance??? What about a subsonic round with this load??? It's getting more difficult to fill niche requirements in the ammunition world. For the vast majority of us...we'll continue to purchase off the shelf 6.5, 6.8...5.7, 7.62x39 and 7.62 to make things happen. I'm not knocking your end state here...but as a consumer and overall interested American in munitions capabilities...I don't see it. We are also trying to work-out a deal with a ammo manufacturer to produce factory ammo for us once all the field testing and dies are complete, also in the works are complete uppers made by very respected manufacturers...Barrel lengths are expected to be available in 16" to 26" lengths from lightweight to bull config's. So stay tuned fellas... Additional testing has showed very Impressive velocities considering the moddest case capacity of the .223 Rem./5.56mm NATO parent case of the 6.5mm PCC. Accuracy thus far has been excellent. I will let Paul post the latest results with the 6.5mm PCC...suffice to say expectations have been met and exceeded thus far. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 12:24:41 PM EDT
[#14]
The Hog hunt was cut short after two hours in the stand the first morning, got a call from my wife, had some major drama with a employee, had to head back. I hope to get back to the test subjects soon.
I worked up a few loads a couple days ago, with so-so accuracy, had some wind gust and was getting groups up to 1 1/2 inch and was not happy about that. Yesterday decided to see if it was me or the gun, took off the low power scope, and put on the Zeiss 6 1/2 x 20, and used my lower with the lightest trigger. Much better results, now I know two shot groups are not a true test, but I am testing loads on a brand new caliber, I am not trying to build the most accurate load, I am trying to see what it will do, and how far I can push it. The highest velocity that I saw was 2441 fps with the 120gr Speer hot-cor, I actually pushed it .2 grains hotter, but it was getting dark, and the chronograph did not read, and that is with a 18" barrel, I can not wait to see what the 22" will do. I have some 100gr Hornady interlocks to work up. I also want to get some 90gr TNT's worked up for coyote. I have been advised not to give actual loads until we get the dies that match the chamber, I am using a set of dies that are close, but having to hold it off the shell holder to make it work. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 3:21:57 PM EDT
[#15]
looking really good so far
 i like it... after you get the dies, will you be able to make the rounds by just cutting the .223 brass and running it through through the resizing die???? or is there gong to be (fire-forming) involved??? the only reason i ask is becasue i have never fire-formed befor... dont know how..
and still wondering what it would cost to get set up and running???
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 4:59:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#16]
Originally Posted By Shooter_G22:
looking really good so far i like it... after you get the dies, will you be able to make the rounds by just cutting the .223 brass and running it through through the resizing die???? or is there gong to be (fire-forming) involved??? the only reason i ask is becasue i have never fire-formed befor... dont know how..
and still wondering what it would cost to get set up and running???
Hello G22, to transform .223 brass to 6.5mm PCC is quite simple...Take .223 brass trim the case neck down to say 1.650" or so,prime & size the brass through your die, load with your selected powder & bullet combo and your done. You don't "have to" use fireformed cases if you don't want to, you can use fresh virgin brass or once fired brass and load your rounds. In that case,non-firformed will have about 3 grains less powder capacity and thus lower velocity... All fireforming is is taking a fired (thus empty) case (that has been "fireformed" to your chamber after firing the round) from your 6.5mm PCC, cleaning/tumbling your fireformed case then reloading it as you would normally do. Now, you have loaded the fireformed casewith the 33.02 case capacity and full velocity/energy levels... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 7:44:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Shooter_G22]
[#17]
nice... sounds easy enough for me... now just getting a nice light wieght 16" barrel maybe fluted with a threaded muzle in a midlength gas system and a set of dies and i should be in bussiness right???
when are you looking at gettting barrels available??? im almost sold...
sorry for all the questions.. 
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 9:15:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Originally Posted By Shooter_G22:
nice... sounds easy enough for me... now just getting a nice light wieght 16" barrel maybe fluted with a threaded muzle in a midlength gas system and a set of dies and i should be in bussiness right??? when are you looking at gettting barrels available??? im almost sold...
sorry for all the questions.. No problem, barrels are actually available now (2-4 week turnaround from order to delivery) the manufacturer we use for our barrls has some sweet fluting options... Dies are the longest wait though, looks like late April or even May till they are ready...bummer ! I'm looking to offer complete uppers through a well known manufacturer/custom shop and to keep prices reasonable. More testing needs to be done, Including ballistic gel, live game, pressure testing and rapid fire/high round count testing for reliability... however, everything thus far is working excellent. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 10:13:47 PM EDT
[#19]
You could use shortened 6.5 TCU dies ?
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2011 10:21:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Originally Posted By GB243:
You could use shortened 6.5 TCU dies ? Yes, shorten the die slightly and if needed the seating stem. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2011 1:56:00 AM EDT
[#21]
wow... sounds great i need to figure out how to im you so i can give you a call, to see what my better options are... money is a little tight for me right now, with my wife being 6mo preg. with our first child... sooo my project funds have been choped to less then half
sooo the lest expensive route is what im looking for... april for the dies is not to bad considering it will take me about that long to buy up all the parts to do the build anyhow.. piece by piece paycheck to paycheck is how i will get it done..
i will see if i cant get ahold of you soon.. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2011 7:09:11 AM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By Shooter_G22:
wow... sounds great i need to figure out how to im you so i can give you a call, to see what my better options are... money is a little tight for me right now, with my wife being 6mo preg. with our first child... sooo my project funds have been choped to less then half sooo the lest expensive route is what im looking for... april for the dies is not to bad considering it will take me about that long to buy up all the parts to do the build anyhow.. piece by piece paycheck to paycheck is how i will get it done..
i will see if i cant get ahold of you soon.. Congrats on your first child,that is wonderful...check your email, I sent you a short messege... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/21/2011 5:37:12 PM EDT
[#23]
thanks, i sent you an email... im excited to get info on this project... hopefully i will know what i need to start working on soon, i think this wildcat is something that will work for me and what i want to do... i thought of useing a 6.5 grendel but i think it would be a little overkill for what i want and i like the fact that the 6.5 PCC is going to be something i can reload for, with componants alot easier to come by (.223 brass) and i am excited to start.. and hopefully i can start working on getting everything together soon... i have already imagined trying to work up loads for this project rifle and cant waite to get started (i am thinking of 100-120gr projectiles for me). i dont have a crono of my own but i have acces to one soo i know i can get a working load shortly after i get everything set up. my goal is to have a real light weight hunter that would give me a good 300 - 500 yrd dear rifle... even if most shots would be around the 200-300 yd range with most of the closer to the 200yd range.. But i want a rifle capable of making a good solid kill shot up to around 500 yds... i know the grendel exceeds those limitations but at the same time it is soo expensive to shoot and build and its a little overkill for what i want and need, and as for the light weight profile i want to build i think that the 6.5 PCC is going to fit the bill perfect...
besides i already have a grendel for long shots... its just a little to heavy and long for what i want... I want a light weight pack rifle that i can break down, put it in a roll up pouch and strap to my hiking pack...
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Posted: 2/21/2011 9:01:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Needz mohr 2 shotz grupz fur da herp derpz....
-ZA |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/21/2011 11:48:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By ZA206:
Needz mohr 2 shotz grupz fur da herp derpz....
-ZA LOL...Still in barrel brake-in mode, 2 to 3 shot groups for now... |
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Posted: 2/24/2011 9:53:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
... We are also trying to work-out a deal with a ammo manufacturer to produce factory ammo for us once all the field testing and dies are complete, also in the works are complete uppers made by very respected manufacturers...Barrel lengths are expected to be available in 16" to 26" lengths from lightweight to bull config's. So stay tuned fellas... Additional testing has showed very Impressive velocities considering the moddest case capacity of the .223 Rem./5.56mm NATO parent case of the 6.5mm PCC. Accuracy thus far has been excellent. I will let Paul post the latest results with the 6.5mm PCC...suffice to say expectations have been met and exceeded thus far. Tag and Congratulations all-around, nice to see everything coming together. How did you settle on the 8-twist? Who's 3-groove Poly barrel blanks are you using? Midlength gas on all the barrels so far? PS Don't let Paul post all the good pics...
In for more Dead Bacon-Ham pics... |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2011 10:46:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Chris,shoot me a email...everthing is going better than expected...we are very excited to take it to the next level...
That is: Ballistic Gel Testing, Piezo Pressure Testing and Live Game Field Testing w/ Hogs and Deer... I would like to thank all the forum members for there suggestions and support w/ this wildcat project... |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2011 12:19:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sititunga]
[#28]
Even at 2300 fps the 123 gr Lapua is still supersonic at 1000 yds. I think this cartridge has more potential than the 7.62x40. Even at 2200 fps this 123 gr round is still supersonic at 900 yds. The 6.5 is definately the way to go.
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AL, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2011 7:57:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1-Wolverine]
[#29]
Originally Posted By chris65:
Tag and Congratulations all-around, nice to see everything coming together. How did you settle on the 8-twist? Who's 3-groove Poly barrel blanks are you using? Midlength gas on all the barrels so far? PS Don't let Paul post all the good pics...
In for more Dead Bacon-Ham pics... We wanted to be able to shoot 140gn, and VLD's I was not sure the 9 twist was fast enough. Black Hole Weaponry barrels, they actually make the barrel start to finish, it comes in SS rod stock, and leaves complete barrel, and everyone I have shot has been a tack driver. My 18" is mid gas, Doc's 22" is rifle gas, Carl (owner of BHW ) has a 16" car gas. Yep my smoker is needing more pig, as my Daughter say's "save a cow, eat more pig" Paul |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2011 8:53:22 AM EDT
[#30]
Originally Posted By sititunga:
Even at 2300 fps the 123 gr Lapua is still supersonic at 1000 yds. I think this cartridge has more potential than the 7.62x40. Even at 2200 fps this 123 gr round is still supersonic at 900 yds. The 6.5 is definately the way to go. I wish they made the Scenar in a hunting bullet, if they did I would already have them. I am not a paper puncher, I am a hunter. Don't get me wrong I shoot plenty of paper, and steel, but it is in preparation and practice for hunting. If you want to send me a few I would love to try them. Thanks, Paul |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2011 9:05:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By sititunga:
Even at 2300 fps the 123 gr Lapua is still supersonic at 1000 yds. I think this cartridge has more potential than the 7.62x40. Even at 2200 fps this 123 gr round is still supersonic at 900 yds. The 6.5 is definately the way to go. Thanks for your support, Yes we are getting 2,441 fps. w/ 120gr. Speer SPHC's out of a 18" Bbl...w/ no pressure signs at all...and it looks like we still have some more room in the case, its suggesting 27.2grs. @ or near 100% case capacity for the Speer 120 load. Currently Paul is @ around 26.0-26.5grs for the Speer 120gr loads,and that's using cheap Remington 223 Brass... The computer modeling is suggesting (as you said) around 2,350fps. w/ a 22" Bbl. for the Lapua 123gr. Scenar load @ or near max. pressure. Thus far,we are getting better velocities than the compter is suggesting...So we are very hopefull,and would be very happy if we get our targeted 2,300-2,400fps w/ the Lapua Scenar 123gr. loads.
BTW, one "professional wildcatter" said to us the medium slow powders will never work in a 223 based wildcat like ours,we suggested otherwise...Guess who was wrong, cause we are getting the best velocities w/ a meduim slow powder(s) for the 223 case w/ the 18" Bbl.. A lot of nay sayers/haters also said you will never beat 7.62X39 power levels or even come close to the Grendel round...We believed as long as you know the Engineering limitations of the AR Rifle platform and Magazine length restrictions a lot can still be done... We are using off the shelf AR-15 equipment like C-Poduct mags,standard Mil-Spec parts and Recievers etc. Yes, a good quality scope and trigger can go a long way... Also,we are using off the shelf reloading dies,until the 6.5mm PCC dies come-in from the manufacturer...We have more loads and more testing to be done... Both me and Paul have families and jobs to take care of, so our wildcat developement time can be limited and the weather cetainly is not helping any... OK, thanks to all of you forum members for support and stay tuned. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2011 11:46:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sititunga]
[#32]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
A lot of nay sayers/haters also said you will never beat 7.62X39 power levels or even come close to the Grendel round...We believed as long as you know the Engineering limitations of the AR Rifle platform and Magazine length restrictions a lot can still be done... If the PCC is coming near to Grendel velocities then obviously the full potential of the Grendel has not been realised. |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 1:14:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Altair]
[#33]
I'm most interested to see what velocities you can get from a 16" or 18" barrel with the 100gr TTSX, the 120gr TTSX, the 120gr Nosler BT, and the 123gr A-Max. Any plans to test these bullets?
ETA: I almost forgot, the 95gr V-Max too. |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 3:17:49 AM EDT
[#34]
Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier, but have you guys tried RL17 with a 20"-24" barrel? Or have you tried the Hodgdon/Hornady Superperformance powder with any of the barrel lengths.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2011 11:53:45 AM EDT
[#35]
Hello Altair,we plan to use most of the bullets you suggested and will be submitting most of those loads for pressure testing.
Then once pressure testing is comeplete, we will be do some balistic gel testing as well with most loads ranging from 85grs. to 140grs. That was one of the reasons we choose the the 1:8 twist rate...so we can use most of the bullet weights available for this caliber and that make sense for use in this cartridge case. We are likely to see the best velocities w/ the 85gr. to the 125gr bullets that are not overly long for caliber/weight that still have good to very good/excellent BC like the: 85gr. Sierra HPV # 1700 85gr. Berger # 26407 90gr. Speer TNTHP # 1445 95gr. Hornady V-Max # 22601 100gr. Hornady Interlock SP # 2610 (Next to be fully tested w/ very promising results) 100gr. Barnes TTSX # 26428 100gr. Lapua FMJ # 4PL6014 100gr. Lapua Scenar # 4PL6033 100gr. Nosler BT # 26100 100gr. Sierra HPV # 1710 120gr. Speer SSP (HotCor) # 1435 (Currently being tested w/ excellent results) 120gr. Nosler BT # 26120 (Showed very good results w/ the previous 6.5mm AR-TCU variant) 120gr. Sierra SPTPH # 1720 120gr. Swift AF/SS # 26120-3 120gr. Hornady A-Max # 26172 (Long VLD bullet) 123gr. Lapua Scenar # 4PL6032 (Very Long VLD Bullet for weight/caliber) .547 G-1 BC ! 123gr. Hornady A-Max # 26171 (Very Long VLD Bullet for weight/cal.) .510 G-1 BC 125gr. Nosler Partition SP # 16320 (Shows very good promise overall,very high BC of .449) *************************************************************************************************************** *************************************************************************************************************** 140gr. Speer SP (HotCor) # 1441 (Shows the best potential in the 140gr. class of bullets,velocity estimates in the 2,300fps. range w/ 22" bbl. P3) the other good candides in the 140gr. class are: 140gr. Hornady SP # 2630 140gr. Sierra GK # 1730 144gr. Lapua FMJBT (VLD,Very High BC .636 G1) Estimated velocity of 2,150-2,230 fps. w/ a 22" bbl. P3 barrel) |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2011 12:17:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#36]
Originally Posted By Gone_Shootin:
Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier, but have you guys tried RL17 with a 20"-24" barrel? Or have you tried the Hodgdon/Hornady Superperformance powder with any of the barrel lengths. We will be trying the following powders: AA 1680 (might not be a stable enough powder, a bit to fast for the 20-24" bbls.) RL-7 good overall powder H-4198 popular fast/medium fast powder AA 2230 should be a good overall powder Ram X-Term. excellent medium/fast powder AA 2460 should be good for the 18-24" bbls. Ram TAC another excellent medium fast powder RL-10X another good medium burn rate powder H-335 medium/medium slow powder w/ excellent results overall in velocity & accuracy H-4895 very good medium slow powder We purchased & wanted to try the new Superformance powders, but it turns-out that they won't work w/ the case capacities we are using according to Hornady/Hogdon Engineers...they have like a 100 different formulations of that powder...but only 1 or 2 have been released. ETA: RL-17 is likely to slow for the case capacity we are using, but we may try it anyway... |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 12:33:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Altair]
[#37]
Thanks for the follow up. If you can reliably and safely get 2300fps from the 120gr Nosler and the 123gr A-Max in a 16" barrel (you know me, I like my AR's short and handy) you'll probably have me sold. Make it to 2400fps and you won't even have to ask
2700fps or more with a 95gr V-Max would just be icing on the cake. ETA: With the very short neck length are you guys seeing any bullet setback problems? Just curious about the neck tension. A custom Lee Factory Crimp die might be handy and they'll make them for any wildcat at a very reasonable price. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/26/2011 12:41:32 PM EDT
[#38]
I have had more than a couple of Grendels. I have used Wolff brass, and found that the necks crack really fast. I have tried forming cases out of free 7.62x39 cases, and for all the effort, the primer pockets went bad so quickly it wasn't worth all the effort. My big fear with something like this is that I would go to a great deal of effort to make cases, fight to get the rifle to work, only to learn that it is neither cost effective, nor a time saver.
Perhaps after this has been done for a few years, and people have worked all the bugs out of it, it would be worth trying. For now, I'll stay with the Grendel based cartridges (.264 LBC, 6.5 CSS, Grendel) as brass is readily available, it works, is accurate, and is less expense than dealing with a new and unproven system. However, for those who like tinkering, it could be a fun project. I generally prefer shooting to tinkering. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2011 2:36:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#39]
No set-back Issues at all thus far w/ all the loads tested...Including multiple reloads from the same cheap Remington brass.
If we do see set-back Issues then of course we will (like you said) add a tapered crimping die like the Lee product... We are estimating over 2,700fps w/ the 95gr. V-Max w/ the 18" P3 Bbl...We are hoping that we can get @ least 2,700fps (or very close to It) w/ the 16" P3 Bbl. w/ the appropriate powder that will work for the shorter barrel. As you may already know I tested the 6.5mm AR-TCU variant w/ shortened case/neck down to 1.620" or so and still had no Isuues w/ set-back after severl hundred rounds and multiple reloads w/ both Inexpensive Remington and pricey Lapua brass. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2011 2:47:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#40]
Originally Posted By Genin:
I have had more than a couple of Grendels. I have used Wolff brass, and found that the necks crack really fast. I have tried forming cases out of free 7.62x39 cases, and for all the effort, the primer pockets went bad so quickly it wasn't worth all the effort. My big fear with something like this is that I would go to a great deal of effort to make cases, fight to get the rifle to work, only to learn that it is neither cost effective, nor a time saver. Perhaps after this has been done for a few years, and people have worked all the bugs out of it, it would be worth trying. For now, I'll stay with the Grendel based cartridges (.264 LBC, 6.5 CSS, Grendel) as brass is readily available, it works, is accurate, and is less expense than dealing with a new and unproven system. However, for those who like tinkering, it could be a fun project. I generally prefer shooting to tinkering. Hello Genin, Thus far absolutely no Issues w/ split necks or set-back and I have fired several hundres rounds w/ my previous 6.5mm AR-TCU wildcat w/ no Issues even with shorter case/neck lengths than the 6.5mm PCC...Again no Issues thus far even w/ the cheap Remington brass, even though the Remington brass tends to be soft...even the primer pockets on the Remington brass is/are holding strong even after several reloads. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2011 4:11:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#41]
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By Genin:
I have had more than a couple of Grendels. I have used Wolff brass, and found that the necks crack really fast. I have tried forming cases out of free 7.62x39 cases, and for all the effort, the primer pockets went bad so quickly it wasn't worth all the effort. My big fear with something like this is that I would go to a great deal of effort to make cases, fight to get the rifle to work, only to learn that it is neither cost effective, nor a time saver. Perhaps after this has been done for a few years, and people have worked all the bugs out of it, it would be worth trying. For now, I'll stay with the Grendel based cartridges (.264 LBC, 6.5 CSS, Grendel) as brass is readily available, it works, is accurate, and is less expense than dealing with a new and unproven system. However, for those who like tinkering, it could be a fun project. I generally prefer shooting to tinkering. Hello Genin, Thus far absolutely no Issues w/ split necks or set-back and I have fired several hundres rounds w/ my previous 6.5mm AR-TCU wildcat w/ no Issues even with shorter case/neck lengths than the 6.5mm PCC...Again no Issues thus far even w/ the cheap Remington brass, even though the Remington brass tends to be soft...even the primer pockets on the Remington brass is are holding strong even after several reloads. Oh,BTW, new high quality Lake City/Ferderal .223/5.56 brass can be had for $74.00 per 500 pcs. and $130 for 1,000 pcs. I like you really like the Grendel round,however, the cost of quality factory ammo as well as rolling your own w/ the high cost of brass is rather discouraging...I can get about 90% of the Grendel w/ the very efficient 223 parent case w/o the need to change anyting other than the barrel... |
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Posted: 2/26/2011 8:37:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Sounds very interesting.
Impressed by what you have managed to squeeze out of it. I'll likely have to try one down the road |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2011 9:24:31 PM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
Sounds very interesting. Impressed by what you have managed to squeeze out of it. I'll likely have to try one down the road Thanks,welcome aboard... |
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USA
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Posted: 2/27/2011 10:42:54 AM EDT
[#44]
[
Hello Genin, Thus far absolutely no Issues w/ split necks or set-back and I have fired several hundres rounds w/ my previous 6.5mm AR-TCU wildcat w/ no Issues even with shorter case/neck lengths than the 6.5mm PCC...Again no Issues thus far even w/ the cheap Remington brass, even though the Remington brass tends to be soft...even the primer pockets on the Remington brass is/are holding strong even after several reloads.[/quote] By using cases with the small primer pocket, you have eliminated the big problem of the primer pockets going bad on the 7.62x39 cases. I think the weak link using the 7.62x39 fireformed cases is that the large primer pocket doesn't handle the pressures as well as the small primer pocket. I believe that is the same reason that some 308 Palma cases are made with small rifle primer pockets. Wolff brass is famous for being of "mediocre" quality (I'm trying to be polite there), so much of the case neck splits could be from the Wolff brass quality. With the Lapua grendel cases, I get maybe one or two case neck splits per hundred. I think that is entirely acceptable as I quit counting how many loads I had through the cases after I had at least 6 firings on each case. Now, I toss the cases if the necks split, or the primer pockets get too loose. Every once in a while, I buy one or two hundred more new Lapua cases to keep the newer cases coming into rotation. An interesting project you have going. I hope it continues to work out well. Have you considered trying some Lapua cases and see if that gets you any better performance? |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2011 11:23:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: alemonkey]
[#45]
This is a very interesting project and I'm hoping everything works out well. I typically build my own uppers so assembling one of these wouldn't cost any more than a regular .223 build, I'd just have to buy the custom dies. I like the idea of being able to use standard AR mags since I have plenty of those. If this takes off I'm interested in building one of these some day.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2011 6:00:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Shooter_G22]
[#46]
for the Grendel shooters: (THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND VIEWS OF THIS SUBJ) You have to remember that the grendel brass cassing has a lot of room for powder..! too much room for powder...!!! if you load the grendel round to powder capacity you are going way over the pressure limit of the "AR Platform" sooo you have to think of the grendel round as a round that is only using maybe 60% of it potential to be able to be used in an AR - 15 Platform... I LOVE THE GRENDEL i think it has been the best thing that has ever happended to the AR-15 platform... However this little wildcat 6.5 PCC in development, is maxxing out almost the full potential of the parent .223 case... and because the chamber Value in the AR-15 platform was "Made" for the .223 case... with the 6.5PCC you probably not going to see all the problems that one would get with other cartridges as long as you load with the right powder, you cant really load a load that is going to be too hot... well you probably can but that would be really pushing the loads... not like other loads that you have to be really carful because of the powder capacity of the brass... this all makes sense to me
but this is all just my view of the matter... and my hypothosis on the subject...
i cant wait to get my hand on one of these barrels so i can start tinkering..!!!  im very excited about this devolopment..!!!
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2011 10:32:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#47]
S-G22 has a point...I think the max loads can be realized w/ the Grendel but only in a bolt gun with the strength to handle the extra pop.
I think a lot of Grendel owners may think they can push the round at/or over max. w/o harm or extra wear & tear to there AR Rifle and may not realize that the max. MAP chamber pressure is set @ 50,000 PSI. There is a reason why nearly all the major powder manufactures list the PSI/CUP rating w/ there loads and have strict warnings regarding the Grendel rounds when fired from a AR rifle. A lot can go wrong when you push the Grendel in a AR rifle like: Broken bolts,premature bolt unlocking,extra wear/tear on the BCG,chamber/throat errosion,gas cutting,excessive bolt thrust etc. At lot of Grendel owners say they can push the Grendel to over 200fps. above published load data numbers, that may be true,but at what cost ? |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2011 10:48:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Yes, you could push the Grendel harder in a bolt gun, but if you have a bolt gun wouldn't it make more sense to run a bigger 6.5, like the Creedmore?
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2011 10:56:53 PM EDT
[#49]
Originally Posted By alemonkey:
Yes, you could push the Grendel harder in a bolt gun, but if you have a bolt gun wouldn't it make more sense to run a bigger 6.5, like the Creedmore? Yes that's true, but,you would have to use a longer action for the 6.5mm Creedmoor/.260 Rem. in a bolt gun. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2011 11:12:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Genin, yes we have used and plan to try/use some more Lapua .223 brass in greater numbers for our load developement w/ the 6.5mm PCC.
It's some really great brass overall very consistant case to case...should last many reloads,since its's also factory annealed so less worries w/ split necks and such... |
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