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Posted: 3/2/2006 12:21:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Forest]
The 6.5 Grendel was created by Alexander Arms, LLC and Competition Shooting Sports, Inc.
Development begain in 1998 with the goal to offer the range performance of the 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester), but do so in the AR15 / M16 platform. As part of this development, flexibility in projectile weight and design was a major criteria as every caliber from .224 to .308 was evaluated. Selection of the 6.5mm caliber combined with our case design allows use of bullets from 85 grains to 144 grain in magazine length loadings. 6.5mm bullets provide high ballistic coefficients particularly in the 100-144 weight range with OTM bullets ranging in BC from .444 to .615. In comparison, the 77 grain Sierra in .224 has a .362 BC. In addition to OTM projectiles, there is an abudance of hunting projectiles from Nosler, Swift, Speer and Remington available that will operate magaizne length at respectable velocities that allow the cartridge to be used for a variety of game animals including deer, hogs and sheep. There are also FMJ projectiles in 100, 120 and 144 grain weights available in 6.5mm. The case design of the 6.5 Grendel was born from the world record holding PPC family (22 and 6mm) of cartridges. Dr Lou Palmisano (Doc PPC), who became a friend of Arne Brennan, watched Arne's development work with great interest as a new variant of his cartridge designs showed its capabilities with higher projectle weights in a platform such as the AR15 / M16. The case for this family of cartridges were designed to be highly efficient combustion chambers that deliver incredible consistancy, often with velocity variations between shots in the single digits ( Consitent Velocity between shots is a major contributor to accuracy) The initial result of Arne's work became a 6.5 PPC optimized to work within the AR15 platform. In 2002, Bill Alexander was introduced to Arne Brennan by Lothar Walther and Arne shared with Bill Alexander his work and performance obtained over many thousands of rounds of shooting. While the "Grendel" was unveiled in 2003 at Blackwater, the Grendel case was modified by Brennan, Alexander and Lapua into a production version best described a 6.5 PPC with a blown forward shoulder and shorter neck. Case capacity of the Grendel is just over 35 grains of H20 with powder capacity within 5% of the 6 BR case. During development, a 6.5 BR AR15 was built and tested for many thousands of rounds. While the BR offered a slight increase in case capacity, the gain in velocity was insignificant. This insignificant gain in velocity, combined with the reduced magazine capacity (only 8 rounds in the space of a 20 round .223 Rem magazines), along with the extensive modifications required in the magazines made the BR case impracticle for the commercial market or any other volume user. Testing and proof work have been underway to test the 6.5 Grendel in benchrest competition (the land of the 22 PPC and 6 PPC) and initial results are showing great promise of being competitive with the smaller caliber PPC family members. On March 6, 2006, Arne Brennan achieved a witnessed 1.198 inch 5 shot group at 660 yards using the Lapua 108 Scenar Projectile with N133 powder... no voodoo or black magic powder / bullets there. In addition, the 6.5 Grendel is being used or being developed in F-Class, Rifle and Handgun Silhouette and of course, High Power Rifle Competition. Further, the 6.5 Grendel is capable of making the 320 power factor (major) in 16-20 inch barrel AR's. With permission from the Commanding Officers, we are allowed to state that both the US Army Marksmanship Unit and US Air Force Shooting Team have match Grendel's which are in testing. In January 2010, Les Baer discontinued offering "6.5 Grendel" branded products and launched the "264 LBC-AR" having worked with Hornady and Black Hills Ammunition to supply a complete product offering of Rifles, Uppers, Dies, Brass and Loaded Ammo. While Alexander Arms allows other manufacturers to use the "6.5 Grendel" brand under a licensing program, Les Baer has chosen to make it's cartridge "open source". As such, any manufacturer is permitted to use the "264 LBC-AR" chambering and branding without licensing or royalties. Competition Shooting Sports, who always offered a specialized chambering in its specific products, changed the branding of its products to "6.5 CSS" in 2006 so not to conflict with Alexander Arms products. As follow-up to Les Baer's release, Competition Shooting Sports has also released the availability of "264 LBC-AR" products. Hunting with the 6.5 Grendel is not much of a challenge given the wide availability of premium hunting 6.5mm bullets available including Nosler Ballistic Tips, Nosler Partitions, Swift A-Frame and Swift Scirrocco to name but a few - all work from the magazine. End users have already been using the Grendel to great success on Deer, Hogs, Antelope, and Coyotes. The Grendel has been fully tested in both semi-auto and full auto operation with no issues. Key to the operational success of the 6.5 Grendel has been the engineering of proper barrel extensions and magazines. Cartridge Data Case length: 38.7mm or 1.524" Case rim: .441" Case rim thickness: 0.059" Case base: .439" Case shoulder diameter: .428" Case taper: 0.65° each side Case shoulder angle: 30° Case maximum loaded neck diameter: .293" Maximum loaded overall length (OAL) in 6.5 Grendel-specific AR15 magazines: 2.265" Maximum peak operating pressure: 50,000 psi. Note: The peak pressure of factory ammunition is restricted by the safe, long-term operating limits of the AR15 platform. Usable case capacity with a 123gr Lapua Scenar bullet seated magazine length is 30.0 grains of BLC2 powder. Barrels: Rifling is of the "Boots" Obermeyer 5R type Rifling is 6-groove, righthand twist Rifling twist rate varies by model, but ranges from 1:7.5 to 1:9 Bore diameter is .2638" Lands diameter is .256" Sample Performance Data by Barrel Length Barrel 16.1" 144 Lapua FMJBT (.636 BC), AA2520, CCI 450 = 2275 fps 139 Lapua Scenar (.615 BC), AA2520, CCI 450 = 2305 fps 130 Norma (.590 BC), AA2520, CCI 450 = 2425 fps 130 Swift (.571 BC), AA2520, CCI 450 = 2425 fps Note: OAL = 2.255" Miscellaneous • AA Tactical 14.5" complete rifle, plastic furniture and M4 buttstock, weighs 6.25 lbs. Alexander Arms can be found at www.alexanderarms.com phone#: (540) 639 8356 Competition Shooting Sports, Inc can be found at www.competitionshooting.com : 770-889-9998 Uppers and Barrel Kits are currently manufactured by both companies. Dealers: Competition Shooting Sports ,Arne Brennan of CSS, aka "TX65" , is an Industry Partner on AR15.com. CSS offers its own complete uppers and barrel, bolt & gas block packages in 6.5 CSS and 264 LBC-AR. Midway USA offers standard Alexander Arms uppers and supplies. Available Configurations: complete rifles or just uppers with barrel lengths of 14.5" 16.1", 19.5", 20", 24" and 28 inches ranging from mild to wild. Flash suppressors/muzzle brakes - The Tactical and GDMR series currently have flash hiders available. The GCS series by CSS has flash hiders on 16.1 and 20 inch models with compatibility for supressors. Magazines - Creative Products www.cproductsllc.com is currently selling 26 round stainless steel teflon coated magazines equipped with anti-tilt followers. A 17 round magazine of the same materials, albeit shorter, has also been released. 10 round magazines are made by Alexander Arms. Forends: Depending on configuration, the Grendel makes use of carbine, mid-length and rifle length gas systems with gas ports tuned to individual barrel lengths. Lower Receiver Compatibility: 6.5 Grendel uppers can be installed on any AR15 lower. No change is required to the lower receiver group. Buffers: The Grendel requires no change to the buffer system. Butt stocks, pads: Can use any buttstock offered for the AR15. Ammunition: Since 2004, Ammo and Brass have been available from Alexander Arms. At SHOT 2006, Wolf published their availability of 6.5 Grendel ammo offerings beginning with a 120 MPT and 123 SP loading. Ammo is scheduled to arrive in the USA in early Summer 2006. Wolf Ammo is brass cased, boxer primed and is reloadable with no modificaiton. Estimated price point per box is $5-$6 (20 rounds). Lapua has also entered agreement to sell and distribute Lapua headstamped brass and loaded ammo worldwide. While exact specs are unknown, my suggestion has been for Lapua to offer their 108 grain Scenar with a .478 BC. This loading can achieve 2600+ fps in a 16 inch barrel while operating at safe pressures. Also this would replicate trajectory performance of the 7.62 NATO with 168 grian bullets (24 inch barrel loadings) Les Baer contracted with Black Hills ammunition to produce ammo under the "6.5 Grendel" brand. In January 2010, Les Baer discontinued the "6.5 Grendel" brand and released 264 LBC-AR ammo produced by Black Hills Ammunition. SSK Industries is offering Contender, Encore and AR15 barrels as well as some AR15 uppers www.sskindustries.com Competition Shooting Sports offers AR15 barrel, bolt and gas block packages as well as complete rifles and uppers. www.competitionshooting.com Why the strange name for this cartridge? Grendel is the name of a mythical beast, a vicious monster, from the epic poem Beowulf, written many centuries ago. In one scene, Grendel smashes through the iron fittings of a heavy oak door and bursts into a dining hall where many Vikings are sleeping and attacks them: “Straightway he seized a sleeping warrior for the first, and tore him fiercely asunder, the bone-frame bit, drank blood in streams, swallowed him piecemeal; swiftly thus the lifeless corse was clear devoured, e’en feet and hands.” Bill Alexander chose the name Grendel to compliment the 50 Beowulf his company also produces. Another offering Alexander Arms is known as the 21 Genghis which is the 5.45x39 Russian cartridge and the Genghis is an AR15 type rifle built to consume the steel case ammunition available in this chambering. Top Question Asked About The Grendel 1. What will the 6.5 Grendel do that I cant do with a .223 Remington? Answer - The 6.5 Grendel extends the range capability of the AR15 platform and allows the AR15 to be used for ethical hunting of medium game such as Deer, Hogs and Sheep. 2. Is the military doing anything with the 6.5 Grendel? Answer - Other then the items mentioned above regarding the USAMU and USAF Shooting Team with permission, Alexander Arms and Competition Shooting Sports never discuss military orders or discussions. If something is happening, it is up to the military parties involved to release that information. 3. What is Grendel recoil like? Answer - The 6.5 Grendel recoils slightly more then the .223 Remington (Heavier Bullets = Increased Recoil).. However, calculations show the recoil to be 40-60% less then the .308 Winchester. 4. The Grendel case is very straight, how does that impact feeding? Answer - Actually, the Grendel has more taper then a 7.62 NATO and the 5.56 NATO.. 5. Isnt a large rifle primer better then a small rifle primer for military purposes? Answer - The 5.56 NATO has a small primer and has survived for over 40 years. While it lacks terminal energy, the primer has nothing to do with this factor. 6. The 7.62x39 has never worked well in the AR, why does the Grendel. Answer - First, the Grendel does not have as much case taper as the 7.62x39. The 7.62x39 due to its case taper requires a magazine with a pronounced curve (like the AK47) to work well. The AR15 with its mag well require a straight magazine section. The Grendel with its less pronounced taper then the 7.62x39 works. Second, Alx Arms designed new barrel extensions and magazines specifically for the Grendel. 7. How does it perform in shorter barrels? Answer - The Grendel is a high efficiency cartridge and therefore burns its powder very well in short barrels. Barrels have been made as short as 12 inches with no problem. In fact, the 6.5 Grendel has already been used in handgun silhouette competition and won. 8. How does the 6.5 Grendel perform less then 300 meters since it seems to be designed for beyond 300 meters? Answer - Yes, the 6.5 Grendel was designed for long distance shooting. However, the Grendel's projectiles dont magically appear at 300 meters and go the distance. Many people have had great success hunting deer and wild boar at close range. History is the ultimate judge and 6.5mm has been a proven hunting caliber for well over a hundred years even at moderate velocities. 9. How do the bolts hold up? Answer - the only bolt that I have seen broken was one after 3000 rounds of excessive abuse running very high pressure loads (65,000 PSI). Even then, only one lug broke and the gun was back in working order with a quick 2 minute bolt swap. In 9 years of work on this, that is the only bolt I have ever seen fail. 10. What if I need a replacement bolt? Answer - no problem, contact the manufacturer of your barrel for a replacement. 11. I want to shoot 1000 yards with this cartridge, what should I do to set it up properly? Answer - When shooting at 1000 yards, you need to be sure your scope has sufficient elevation adjustment to correct for bullet drop. If you do not have a base with elevation built in, you need a scope with a minimum of 90 minutes of elevation (+/- 45 minutes). If you incorporate a 20 moa base, you can use a scope with a minimum of 50 minutes of elevation (+/- 25 minutes) although a scope with 75 minutes of elevation (+/- 37.5 minutes) will keep you out of the edges of the elevation adjustment range. 12. What is practical range limit for different barrel lengths? Answer - While the cartridge will perform with 14.5 and 16 inch barrels, most people find that 18, 20 and 22 inches are the ideal barrel lengths for target shooting and hunting. Either of these 3 barrel lengths will allow medium game hunting out to 300 yards and allow accurate shooting to 600 yards. If you are going to be doing a lot of long range shooting beyond 600 yards, you should use a 28 inch barrel to extract as much velocity as possible. 13. I will be hand loading my own ammo, what are the best bullets to consider? Answer - While many people are focused with 120+ grain bullets because of their ballistic coefficient, the best bullets to consider in cartridge of this size range from 81.5 to 108 grains. This lighter bullet weights will let you use a wide assortment of both ball and extruded powders and obtain respectable velocities at safe pressures. Bullets 120 grains or greater in weight are very powder choice limited compared to the lighter bullets. The 108 Grain Lapua can be safely loaded to achieve a trajectory match with the 7.62 NATO M118 LR round. For hunting, the Nosler 100-grain Ballistic Tip and Partition bullets are outstanding as is the Hornady 95 VMAX and Speer 90 grain TNT. Other bullets to consider include the Berger 85 grain flat base and Berger 100 grain HPBT. 14. Why is the cartridge rated at 49,000 to 51,000 PSI in published load data? Cant the brass handle more? Answer - Because the AR-15 rifle is the main platform this cartridge was developed for, the rifle platform became the pressure-limiting factor due to its bolt/ locking lug design and bolt thrust limitations. 15. What are the details of the all chambering options and names? Answer - “6.5 Grendel” .300” neck diameter with compound angle throat - Alexander Arms Chamber “6.5 CSS” .295” neck diameter with compound angle throat - Competition Shooting Sports / Lothar Walther Chamber “.264 LBC-AR” .295” neck diameter with 1 degree throat - Les Baer Custom Chamber - - Open Source Chamber - Contact Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool to obtain reamer “6.5 PPCX” .292 neck diameter with 1 degree throat - Open Source Chamber - Contact Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool to obtain reamer "6.5 BPC" Special Purpose Bench Rest Bolt Action Chamber - Open Source Chamber - Contact Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool to obtain reamer 16. Can I use steel 7.62x39 cases to load into 6.5G? Answer - Yes. Gunwritr has come up with a method to reload steel Beriden primed cases (it should be easier on the steel Boxer primed cases). The archived thread is HERE (you need to be a team member to view it) Non Team members can use THIS link. Gunwritr used the principles shown in this ZombieSquad thread |
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Posted: 3/2/2006 8:43:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Thank you, sir!
When you get your next update done I will add it to the content server and make it a permanent part of the header of this page, with the other popular variant cartridges. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2006 1:50:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Grendelizor]
[#2]
BLACK HILLS 6.5 GRENDEL FACTORY AMMO FOR LES BAER CUSTOM
Black Hills Ammunition loads the 6.5mm 123gr Sierra MatchKing. 
WOLF 6.5 GRENDEL FACTORY AMMO Wolf Ammunition has released two of a planned three loadings in 6.5 Grendel. The first two loadings are a 6.5mm 123gr hunting Soft-Point and a 120gr Multi-Purpose Tactical (MPT) OTM. Wolf's third 6.5 Grendel loading will be steel-cased with a 110gr FMJ, which will be similar to a scaled up version of the Russian 5.45mm 7N6. 
6.5 GRENDEL BALLISTICS GRAPHS I've now created some charts for 16" barrels comparing the 6.5 Grendel to other combat cartridges. 
Previously, I posted some charts comparing Black Hills 6.5 Grendel 123 SMK to Black Hills match loads in 5.56 and 7.62. Both those loads have military counterparts, Mk262 and M118LR, which are loaded hotter. This new set of charts makes that comparison, and also throws in Alexander Arms' new 130 Swift Scirocco load, which could be a useful penetration load for LE, in addition to the obvious hunting use. I'm struck how similar all three MatchKing trajectories are, that should simplify the training for those adding 6.5 Grendel capability to their toolbox. 
INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED 6.5 GRENDEL VELOCITIES The following data is from David Fortier's 6.5 Grendel article on page 55 of Guns & Ammo's Book of the AR15 2006. 90 Speer TNT 14.5 bbl = 2686 fps 16 bbl = 2760 fps 24 bbl = 2978 fps 123 Lapua Scenar HPBT (BC .547) 14.5 bbl = 2486 fps 16 bbl = 2505 fps 24 bbl = 2650 fps Fortier's data was derived using an Oehler 35P chronograph 15 ft from the muzzle, 40 degrees F, 100 ft above sea level. 6.5 GRENDEL GEL TEST REPORT Ballistic gelatin testing of select 6.5 Grendel loadings was performed this past Monday, May 8, 2006, and I've finally got my hands on the results. I've waited two years for this! CentCom tested one 6.5 Grendel load in August 2004, but, apparently, didn't feel the need to release the results for civilian or commercial use. Alexander Arms contracted this latest round of gel tests from Speer Law Enforcement representatives in order to have these tests serve as an experimental "control" for ballistics gelatin tests performed by other entities. Speer performed these tests according to the standard F.B.I. Protocols, as well as their standard in-house procedures. They use 6 x 6 x 16" blocks of ten percent ballistic gelatin, calibrated with a BB. It is interesting to note that Speer uses green dye instead of red to better delineate the temporary and permanent cavities; we conjecture it's for "politically correct" considerations. Alexander Arms tested four loads: (1) 120 Norma FMJ, (2) 120 Sierra MatchKing (SMK), (3) 123 Sierra MatchKing (loaded by Black Hills Ammunition for Les Baer Custom), and (4) 90 Speer TNT. All tests were performed using production Alexander Arms Tactical 14.5 and Tactical 16 M4-style carbines at ranges of 50 and 100 yards. Here is a summary of the results: 120 Norma FMJ 
The 120 Norma FMJ, above, penetrated 16.5" before veering out the side of the block and impacting the support frame. No fragmentation was evident, but the slug is believed to have tumbled at about the 7" mark, with the maximum permanent cavity at the 11" mark. Lesions of more than 6" were created on the top and bottom block surfaces. The Alexander Arms Tactical 14.5 was used in the three 120 Norma FMJ photos shown here. Range: 50 yards. Impact velocity: 2405 fps. 
Another shot of the 120 Norma FMJ. 
Close-up of 120 Norma FMJ. 120 Sierra MatchKing 
The 120 Sierra MatchKing penetrated 3.25" before yawing and fragmenting. The Alexander Arms Tactical 16 carbine was used in the three 120 SMK photos shown here. Range: 100 yards. Impact velocity: 2383 fps. (Velocity from 24" test barrel was 2660 fps @ 49,800 psi.) 
Maximum penetration of the 120 SMK was 19.5", maximum permanent cavity diameter was more than 6" with lesions running to block exterior surfaces. Depth to the maximum permanent cavity was 7.5". Bullet fragmented, with seven large pieces visible within the block. Jacket sections came to rest at 11.75" and 16.25", and the bullet core at 19.5". 
Close-up of 120 SMK penetration neck before yaw. 123 Sierra MatchKing 
The 123 SMK penetrated 2.25" before yawing and fragmenting. The Alexander Arms Tactical 14.5 carbine was used in the three 123 SMK photos shown here. Range: 50 yards. Impact velocity: 2385 fps. (Velocity from 24" test barrel was 2650 fps @ 49,500 psi.) 
Maximum penetration of the 123 SMK was 16.2", maximum permanent cavity diameter was more than 6" with lesions running to block exterior surfaces. Depth to the maximum permanent cavity was 7". Bullet fragmented into multiple small fragments with jacket pieces visible at 11" and 13". Small core fragment was visible at maximum depth of 16.2" 
Close-up of 123 SMK penetration neck before yaw. 90 Speer TNT 
The 90 Speer TNT performed as expected for a varmint bullet. Auto Glass 
Entry hole of the 120 SMK through auto glass. 
Impact of 120 SMK into ballistic gelatin after passing through auto glass. Summary These tests demonstrate the flexibility of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge in tactical scenarios. Each loading is a tool designed to perform a certain job. If you need penetration, use the 120 Norma FMJ. If you need a general-purpose tactical OTM with decent penetration of intermediate barriers yet with very good fragmentation, use the 120 SMK. If you want a long-range bullet that shoots like the 123 Lapua Scenar yet exhibits very early and explosive fragmentation, call for the 123 SMK. It's interesting that the 123 SMK, a bullet that rivals the 123 Lapua Scenar with its .547 BC, also proved to be the most violently fragmenting round of those tested (well, not counting the TNT). We had been led to believe that bullets that perform extremely well at long range would perform poorly at CQB in MOUT. However, testing now shows that the 123 SMK provides wicked fragmentation at CQB ranges with twice the lead mass of 5.56 NATO, as well as shooting flatter and drifting less than 7.62 NATO out to 1000 yards. This capability in one loading truly makes the 6.5 Grendel a unique tool in the AR15/M16/M4 tactical toolbox. I will update this report as more data comes in. It's unfortunate that the Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammunition did not arrive in time to test, so that will also have to wait until later. John ================================== ALEXANDER ARMS 6.5 GRENDEL CARBINE MODELS Alexander Arms has just released two tactical models, the Tactical 16 (T16) and the Tactical 14.5 (T14). The T16 is a midlength rifle and the T14 is basically an M4 carbine clone chambered for the 6.5 Grendel. 
For those of you who haven't heard of the 6.5 Grendel, it's a relatively new 6.5x39 cartridge based roughly on the Russian 7.62x39. It was designed to give AR10 ballistics in an AR15 package. Originally designed around a 123gr Lapua Scenar (.547 BC) launched at 2610 fps in a 24" barrel, it can shoot flatter and drift less in wind at 800 yards than 7.62 M80, M852, and M118LR. This might be of interest to designated marksmen and also those who want a light machinegun which can get on fleeting targets fast, at long range. Not to be limited to long-range offerings only, these latest Grendel rifles package the 6.5 Grendel in carbine format. Both rifles come standard from the factory with an M4-type stock, A2 grip, and an option of either clamshell or Midwest Industries railed handguards. The T14 has an extra option of a clamshell handguard modified with three rail sections at the 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions. 
Flat-top receivers are mil-spec anodized. Barrels are chrome moly vanadium with mil-spec chrome lining. Barrel profiles are basically M4, with an OD of .730" under the handguards, .750" under the gas-block (barrels are parkerized under the gas-block), and .730 at the T14 muzzle and .740 at the T16 muzzle. Both have grenade cut-outs. The 6.5 Grendel, being a larger caliber, requires a larger threaded barrel dimension than 5.56. Barrels are threaded at 9/16-24, which allows standard 5.56mm flash hiders to be reamed and rethreaded for 6.5mm with common tooling. The T16 has a standard A2 birdcage, fully removable. The T14 has a lengthened A2 birdcage, permanently silver-solder attached, which gives a total barrel length of 16.1". Both models have an F-stamped A2 front sight tower which is dowel-pinned. Alexander Arms both parkerizes under the gas-block and drills the gas-port hole before chroming, resulting in "chrome-through" of the gas-port. MSRP for the Tactical 16 upper is $579. MSRP for the Tactical 14.5 upper is $595 (price reflects the extra steps for the permanently attached flash hider). AMMUNITION PHOTOS Below is a size comparison of 7.62 NATO, 6.5 Grendel, and 5.56 NATO. 
Compare a 5.56 NATO 62-grain bullet with a 6.5mm 144-grain Lapua FMJBT. 
Alexander Arms currently produces four factory loads: (1) 123 Lapua Scenar, (2) 129 Hornady SST, (3) 120 Nosler Ballistic Tip, and (4) 90 Speer TNT. They are shown sectioned below, along with a 144 Lapua FMJBT. The "sweet spot" for bullet weight in the 6.5 Grendel case is around 120 grains, of which many, many 6.5mm bullets are available, but the cartridge exhibits its built-in flexibility by handling a wide range of common 6.5mm competition and hunting bullets from 90- to 144-grains. 
At SHOT Show 2006, Wolf Ammunition announced their plans to produce 6.5 Grendel. Wolf's 2006 catalog in PDF format can be downloaded here: www.wolfammo.com/Wolf_Ammo_Catalog2006.pdf. 
What's ammunition without magazines? Also at SHOT 2006, Alexander Arms debuted their new 26-round C-Products stainless steel, coated 6.5 Grendel magazines. 
RIFLE PHOTOS 
Note the barrel profiles below. 
John |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 9:27:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: OverBored]
[#3]
Is there anyway you two can work together to consolidate the FAQ's? I see that some of that has been done already. Once you both agree on the content, just erase the Gredolizer's post above mine.
I'd like to add them to the content server as one long entry, instead of two that might cover similar stuff. Thanks --OverBored |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2006 9:10:27 PM EDT
[#4]
What am I missing here in this data from a Glocktalk Black Rifle thread? It seems to me that the Grendel is superior to the 6.8 Rem SPC across the entire range spectrum from 0 to 1,000yds.
Range(yds) Vel(fps.) ft/lbs. drop(ins.) drift(ins.)Also, why does the 6.8 group have a sticky on the AR15 Discussion link but the 6.5 group only have one under AR Variants? With the Wolf Ammo coming out for the 6.5 rather than the 6.8, seems like you should be on the AR15 Discussion page too. |
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Posted: 3/16/2006 7:12:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: septic-tank13]
[#5]
+1 i don't suppose you know the barrel length for these comparisons do you? |
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Posted: 3/22/2006 7:15:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Looking at the data, it appears to be the Grendel in a 14.5 barrel. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/24/2006 10:10:28 AM EDT
[#7]
Anyone know who's doing the machining on the Alexander Arms uppers and lowers? Is it done in house or is it farmed out? Same question regarding barrels?
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MN, USA
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Posted: 4/1/2006 10:44:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Austin, Alexander Arms uppers and lowers are manufactured to strict tolerances by a household name in American industry. Sorry, but actual names of sources represent a competitive advantage. Carbine barrels are manufactured for AA by a well-respected defense contractor known for their high-quality machine-gun barrels.
If your concern is whether or not Alexander Arms products are quality, fear not.  John |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 4/3/2006 10:34:17 PM EDT
[#9]
I heard someone was giving away free Grendels?
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2006 8:20:04 AM EDT
[#10]
Thanks or the info. I was just curious if they were machined in house. I do know who's making the barrels and I think you might call them a "defence" contractor.... 
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MN, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2006 11:51:08 AM EDT
[#11]
Voltron, that must be the same someone that's giving away free 2006 Jaguar S-types! If you find someone like that, sign me up!
 John |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2006 12:16:20 PM EDT
[#12]
I sure will!!! BTW Grendolizer, do you work for Alexander Arms? I was wondering how someone actually joins the firearm industry. It would be a dream job for me :) Anyone know what kind of education someone needs to get into that? Or connections? Or maybe if youre named after the defender of the universe from a popular 1980's childrens action cartoon?
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MN, USA
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Posted: 4/4/2006 3:54:57 PM EDT
[#13]
Voltron, nope, sorry, I don't work for Alexander Arms so can't help you with an "in" to the gun industry. I'm a hunter, a gun nut, a militaria buff, and a Photoshop guy for an ad agency by trade.
I've always thought the U.S. military should have adopted a general-purpose military cartridge such as the British .280 instead of 5.56 NATO back in the 1950s. When the 6.5 Grendel came to my attention in a Shotgun News article by David Fortier around September 2003, I recognized it as the perfect modern-day incarnation of a general-purpose military cartridge and created a website dedicated to it (www.65grendel.com) in February 2004 in the hope that the U.S. military would take a serious look at the new round. I sort of made it my personal crusade to promote the 6.5 Grendel, but it was my own initiative and not as someone who has received any compensation in any way from Alexander Arms. Though we've never met personally, Bill Alexander has appreciated my support (which I am happy to do for the sake of this cartridge concept and, ultimately, for the effectiveness of our troops), so I guess I do have access to a little bit of the "inside scoop." John |
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Posted: 4/5/2006 11:54:25 AM EDT
[#14]
Barrels for the Alx Arms models are Lothar-Walther... The upper and lowers are machined to Alx Arms specification by an specialized aerospace machining group. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/24/2006 10:07:28 PM EDT
[#15]
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MN, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2006 2:00:30 PM EDT
[#16]
For you Grendel Aficionados who like live-action, here's a little movie clip I made: AA Tactical 14.5 Movie.
My apologies in advance to those for whom it will not run. We've had some trouble on many computers where I first posted it on www.65grendel.com, and the current technical feedback is that one needs the latest Quicktime 7 to run it. John |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2006 11:10:02 AM EDT
[#17]
It seems like most 50 Beowulf and 65 Grendel discussion has left this board and migrated to
www.65grendel.com and www.50beowulf.com |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2006 10:00:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Grendel and Beowulf owners are still here but for the little detail stuff it makes sense to go to the specialised boards rather than post here and get a bunch of "well it serves you right for buying the wrong caliber" attitude, with nothing really constructive.
The general discussions of the calibers seem to be well suited to this board and when conducted at a mature level are a very good source of information for anyone who is considering getting into another AR caliber. Update The 26 round mags are shipping late next week and the Wolf samples are due in now. If they are as specified production will start as soon as the e-mail hits. Ammo prices look to be working out at $7/box but should drop for case volumes. Bill Alexander |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2006 10:36:51 AM EDT
[#19]
Is the eject port enlarged on the 6.5G upper?
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NOR
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Posted: 5/16/2006 11:04:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Yes.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/16/2006 11:22:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Is there a source for 6.5G uppers only, or would I have to buy a barreled upper?
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/17/2006 10:44:58 PM EDT
[#22]
KC, sorry, but at this time AA is only making complete uppers, and not parts.
John |
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Posted: 5/20/2006 10:14:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Grendelizor.....Will Sabre Defence or AA offer an SPR profile 18" midlength gas tube
Chrome moly vanadium chrome lined...or a 16" midlength with a medium profile and no grenade launcher steps?... tia |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 5/22/2006 7:56:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Doc, AA is planning to fill out their model lineup, and I'd say an 18" is near the top of the short list at this time.
I don't know if an 18" would still have the grenade cut-outs; I wouldn't think so. At first I complained about them on the 16" because I didn't like the "look." And I guess I still prefer it "clean." But Bill A. says that in his testing the cut-outs relieved barrel stress, improved the harmonics, and thus assisted accuracy. Form follows function, I guess. John |
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Posted: 5/24/2006 5:06:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Ah ha! Method to his madness....thanks for the info...I thought it was all about marketing...without a practicle reason... Live long enough and ya learn something... thanks much... |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 7/17/2006 4:18:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Redding is offering 6.5 Grendel reloading die sets. Their cartridge code number for the 6.5 Grendel is #478. Their product number for a standard two-die set is #80478.
A good source of Redding dies is here. John ========== 6.5 Grendel: Hits with Twice the Lead of 5.56; Shoots Flatter Than 7.62 |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/18/2006 9:08:27 AM EDT
[#27]
From Redding on the Grendel dies - 7/17/06:
The tooling has been ordered for both. I'd estimate it'll still be 10-14 weeks before dies are ready to ship. Regards, Patrick T. Ryan Redding Reloading Equipment 1089 Starr Road Cortland, NY 13045 |
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Posted: 7/18/2006 2:22:24 PM EDT
[#28]
Is there something wrong with the Lee dies that AA and CSS sales?
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/18/2006 3:03:27 PM EDT
[#29]
There is nothing wrong with the Lee dies, but the Redding dies can be set up to size the case necks less aggressively for longer case life.
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Posted: 7/25/2006 2:18:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Tag for when I have time to read this.
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Posted: 8/5/2006 12:07:03 PM EDT
[#31]
Like any other conversion, the non standard parts are barrel, bolt and mags correct? I think I'm getting me a 6.5 upper.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2006 12:49:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Yep. The barrels for sale come with a proper barrel extension, so that is covered. Per Bill Alex in another thread here, you just want to be sure that your receiver ejection port is at the high end of spec. At the low end, you might have problems, but at the high end, should be a-ok. Good shooting!! |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 9/16/2006 2:12:34 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm watching with interest what Wolf does. Checking with MidwayUSA and Natchez, it seems that the cost of a 1000 brass casings is about as expensive as buying the upper.(?)
 I'm looking for another caliber of AR and am debating between the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC. Neither is going to be cheap to shoot, but currently the 6.8 has a large advantage in available brass/bullets. I reload so it's not a huge deal until you check the prices.  I'm looking for a long range gun, something to shoot for target and maybe take a deer or two with. Not really a blaster, I have a .223 for that. I like the ballistics of this (6.5) round, but the cost is scary! Is there a cheaper source for components? |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 9/20/2006 8:05:23 AM EDT
[#34]
Arne of Competition Shooting Sports posted on my website about his new 15-round 6.5 Grendel magazines:
I believe the purpose of these ($26.95 each) is to give a magazine that is no longer than the pistol-grip to aid in shooting prone or off the bench. Give Arne a call and enjoy! John ========== 6.5 Grendel: Soul of an AR10; Body of an AR15 |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2006 1:56:13 AM EDT
[#35]
I'm a 6.8 SPC guy, if your going for long range 400+ get the Grendel it has way better energy retention at those ranges. Right now the ammo for 6.8 SPC out of a 16" barrel is 2500-2600, lower than what was originally stated as 2700+. I wish they revise the SAAMI specs so it really can shoot 2700+ reliably. But that's for another discussion. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2006 12:38:29 PM EDT
[#36]
True, but don't forget that anything the 6.8 can do at shorter ranges the 6.5G can also do. It's simply ballistics, no magic needed. That way you get everything in one package, both short and long range. John ========== 6.5 Grendel: Soul of an AR10; Body of an AR15 |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2006 5:54:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Yep it was originally designed to surpass 5.56 at close to med range, at 200 yrds it has the muzzle energy of 5.56. At 0-400 I would choose 6.8 over the 6.5. 400+ I'll stick to my Rem 700 in .308 or .300 win mag. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2006 8:19:21 PM EDT
[#38]
I have a Rem 700 in both .308 & 300WM... I'll take a 6.5 Grendel over both for specific missions. An AR15 running the 6.5G offers alot to offer in a Long range package. It holds it's own with the mighty .308 out to 1000 yards, all in a standard AR15, semiauto package. The 6.8 simply isn't in the same class.  Of course I'd choose one of my bolt guns for certain tasks...  |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2006 4:02:53 PM EDT
[#39]
I am having a very hard time finding factory ammunition for the 6.5 Grendel. Everyone I can get in touch wiht is waiting for the ammunition to arrive. I would specifically like to have a case of 120 grain Nosler. When I ordered my first lot from Midway, I had to settle for the 123 grain. Does anyone know if there is a shipment of ammunition coming? Every time I check, the order has been bumped back another week or two.
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CO, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2006 7:58:00 PM EDT
[#40]
So is the 19.2" barrel the closest to 20's you get?
Im basically after a 20" govt profile like my .223 to make a hunting/general purpose upper. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/14/2006 4:55:39 PM EDT
[#41]
TX65,
Clarify something. You said the bore was .2638" and the land diameter was .256" It's my understanding when a barrel is made a hole is drilled, then reamed, and sometimes honed and that is the "bore". Then the rifling is put in by various methods such as cutting, button rifling, broached, and hammer forged. The rifling cuts diameter is then known as the "groove" diameter. The part of the bore that is left after the rifling is put in thus becomes the "land" tops. So wouldn't, in you measurements, .2638 be the groove diameter and the .256 be the land diameter? JFA |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/18/2006 12:49:51 PM EDT
[#42]
I'm glad to see somebody else sharing my preferences on the Grendel boards every so often. I'm waiting for a complete 18" or a 20" Grendel rifle or upper in a military style myself....just like their current 14.5" or 16" upper offerings. My thinking is that the Grendel deserves a longer barrel then 16" to fully utilize it's superior balistics. Their current bald barrel upper offerings look like a circumsized post ban '94 Colt sporting AR15 .....Not my idea of an assault rifle. And who wants to gamble by paying top dollar for some gunsmith to maybe be able to transform one into the rifle you want? Not me. I'm patient......got my cash in hand, and I'll just keep waiting. I already bought a lower just in case the wait is all the way up into the next ban. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/20/2006 2:35:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Grendelizor]
[#43]
Note that I've added a brief photo essay to my main FAQ post (the third on the first page) regarding the upcoming Wolf 6.5 Grendel ammo.
John ========== 6.5 Grendel: Soul of an AR10; Body of an AR15 |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2006 9:25:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: M9Powell]
[#44]
Nice pics Grendelizor, In your summary, you state that the ammo caused excess copper fouling & that a cleaner burning powder was requested. A cleaner burning powder won't correct excess copper fouling. You or they 1 have a mixup. A cleaner burning powder will help with powder fouling residue. If the problem really is copper fouling ( which I doubt due to the grendels low velocity & the smoothness of Lothar Walther barrels) It'll take either a different jacket for the bullet, a smoother bore, or a reduction in velocity too cure it. You might want to check on this obivious error & correct your post. Also you have the best photo I've seen yet of a loaded Grendel mag. Congradulations on your photography skills. It is very clear to a skilled eye, that that mag is from a 5.56 stamp. That is to be expected. The stamps to build these mags are very expensive & an application such as this would not have enough volume to repay the cost of a new stamp. I'd expect problems with battered bullet noses, though I'd wager a guess that it feeds well due to the thinner guage metal & what appears to be reduced depth of the alignment & stacking grooves. Will a GI speedloader fit the back groove? Alas no one is building a true 6.5 Grendel mag yet. Pity. Overall a very nice update thanks. Just a couple of minor points. M9 |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2006 10:25:41 AM EDT
[#45]
I'm sure the mix-up is mine. I do know it had something to do with the powder, but I will check on it.
Sigh. M9, you are incorrect. The geometry on these magazines has been changed to be Grendell-specific. I don't suppose you'll take my word for it. I guess you could call Barry at CProducts and discuss the technical aspects of it with him, but I don't suppose you'd take his word for it because, of course, you have "skilled eyes." So, yet again, you've managed a snarky little cheap shot at the Grendel project concealed in an "objective" review, and no one can tell you different. It was for this kind of behavior that I banned you from my site. John ========== 6.5 Grendel: Soul of an AR10; Body of an AR15 |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2006 12:11:06 PM EDT
[#46]
I think you need to study a little more and post a little less. You quote with absolute conviction that powder cannot contribute to copper fouling but I doubt, that as with many aspects of weapon design, you grasp little more than that confered on you by the internet. Please be advised that the formulation of a powder can have a major bearing upon the amount of jacket material fouling from any given projectile. I do not have either the time or patience to educate you in this matter and very much doubt that you have the skill or interest to believe anything you are shown, but for those who are reading this thread it is a common practice to adjust the flame temperature of the powder via the geometry and also to use addative chemicals to mitigate copper fouling in modern rifle barrels. A good example of such work is Alliant 10x. What we found in testing the Wolf ammunition was that the Wolf projectiles did not foul when used with common powders such as those given in our reloading tables. Equally projectiles such as the 120 Sierra would foul excessively if loaded on the ball propellant from Wolf. In the light of this we are changing the powder formulation. Bill Alexander |
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Posted: 10/21/2006 12:53:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: OverBored]
[#47]
M9Powell,
I strongly suggest that you adhere to my IM warning. In the future, your inflammatory posts will simply be edited out and referred to site staff. If you continue this fruitless campaign of trolling and baiting in the technical forums, I suspect your stay here will be shorter than anticipated. Your conjecture and errant posting are both unwelcomed and unacceptable. Thanks for your cooperation in this matter. --OverBored |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 10/22/2006 12:25:34 PM EDT
[#48]
When you find such a treat, IM me ASAP! I'd probably free float mine for a little better accuracy, but I like how my .223 Govt profile is for weight and accuracy. I could probably even do without free floating for some time. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2006 1:02:40 AM EDT
[#49]
IchWarrior,
A lot of folks have a short memory about the 10 year period between 1994 and 2004. Collapsable stocks and pistol grips were replaced with thumb hole stocks. Flash supressors were replaced with bald barrels, and bayo lugs were shaved off of the bottom of every FSB. Why should I do that to myself when the government will soon enough do it to me again. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2006 1:17:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: VaniB]
[#50]
IchWarrior,
BTW, I've seen plenty of 5.56 and 6.8 SPC Model 1 uppers exactly the way I would want one. But, a Grendel 6.5???....I'll just say to be patient. You want to hear an amusing story about being patient and how it can pay off?...... In the mid 1970's I visited a gentleman by the name of Earl Keller in Evansville Indiana who manufactured a brass frame Century 45-70 Revolver. It was one of those limited custom made guns that was on the cover of Guns & Ammo Magazine. Mr. Keller told me that he gave the actual Guns& Ammo Cover Gun to none other then gun guru himself, Mr. "Heck I Was There" Elmer Keith. (Elmer Keith was on the Guns & Ammo staff at the time.) Mr. Keller was the nicest gentleman, inviting us to his home, and taking the time to show my wife and I the town of Evansville Indiana. Well, he put me on his waiting list to receive one of his revolvers, and then bid us a safe 700 mile drive back home. I contacted him about every 6 months to remind him that I was still waiting, and to ask the status of my gun and how production was coming along. I waited years in hopes of receiving that note from Mr. Keller and Century Arms to inform me that my gun was at last ready. Instead, you know what I finally got in the mail 7 years later?....I got a mass mailed form letter to tell me that Keller had croaked!!....and that the company now had a different name, and that I was welcome to send the new owner a deposit and continue to wait for the gun. To this day I still have the 30 year old Poloroid shot of my then 20 year old wife holding that 45-70 revolver in Mr. Keller's den. I haven't heard from the new owner of the Century 45-70 revolver in about 23 years now... ...but heck..... I'm patient. Oh....the moral of the story is that sometimes patience DOESN'T ALWAYS PAY OFF because death and old age can come faster then the gun you always wanted.  ....I'll let you know if I hear anything about new production 18" or 20" Grendels being ready for us. |
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