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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My AR15 KaBoomed - from Maine Cartridge Co. SS109 (Updated Page 14 More Lying/More Stupidity) (Page 3 of 7)
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KA3B, While following the post about the incident reported on this thread involving another manufacturers ammunition, I noted your comment regarding your dissatisfaction with a purchase of BH Ammo. Regarding your dissatisfaction, did you notify us (BH Ammo) or your dealer? We take pride in what we produce. Every days production is fired for pressure velocity and uniformity. Every round is hand inspected, (including inspection for primer depth, split necks etc)and we try not to ever allow the types of concerns you experienced occur. I very much appreciate the opportunity to investigate your concerns. If you did not notify anyone at the time, do you still have any of the ammunition anywhere so we can investigate it now? My goal is to never leave a customer dissatisfied, thus my questions. I am not in the office tomorrow, but you may call 1-800-568-6625 and speak with Carl. It does not matter that it was in 1999 when you bought the ammo, I will gladly provide a refund or reimbursement ,including freight, if you have any of the ammunition left for us to inspect. If you have the original packaging, the lot number would be very helpful. We will provide a complete report to you on our findings. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman, Black Hills Ammunition Inc. |
I did notify the dealer I bought the ammo from in 1999. It came from Shooters Emporium in Escondido, Ca. When I told them what happened they told me "all ammo sales final". I did not notify Black Hills. I appriecate your concern. I don't expect anything from Black Hills as far as money or a refund since I don't have any sales receipts or the empty boxes/lot numbers. Thanks for the customer service. I wish more companies had people like you working for them. |
Don't let them BS you. The AR15 is designed in such a way that it's impossible for the firing pin to contact the primer when the bolt is out of battery. Slamfires do happen, usually in a reloaded round where the primer isn't seated properly, and even then that's an ammo problem too. Good luck. |
Nothing that I or others have seen on the rifle would indicate that it was "out of battery". And thus the finger pointing contest beings. Personally, I don't buy it from evidence set forth - but he said he would look at it. I will hopefully have some update next week.
Mr. Hoffman isn't exactly an employee....he's the owner 
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Glad to hear you were not seriously injured- that's the main thing. I hope Maine makes everything right. I suppose the lesson is to be suspicious of remanufactured ammo. I tend to put a lot of faith in Black Hills Blue Box, though. I bet that got your blood pumping... 4073 |
Did you send it to Maine or Bushmaster? Bet that Maine blames it on the rifle and that's it. Bushmaster would be far more interested in seeing it and eating the cost of a new rifle. They would tear it down to the metal to make sure it was not the rifle and make sure they do not have a problem. Maine will beat it apart with a hammer and send you the pieces back with a note that says "not me". |
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Looks like a double charge. But first thing's first. I'm glad you didn't get hurt. I bet you were wearing eye and ear protector when you were shooting. I've seen that on a lot of M16s that were left by the New People's Army (communist rebels in the Philippines) in firefights during the late 80's to the mid-90's. During firefights, the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) personnel, mostly Army, Special Forces, Scout Rangers, and Marines, purposely left behind ammo that were specially-manufactured to have double powder charge. After the firefight, the NPA would go back to the area where the armed encounter took place and salvage whatever was left, including ammo. They would then load these double-charged ammo into their M16s. The result is pretty much the same. The AFP called these "demolition rounds" with the purpose to destroy the M16s of the rebels. |
This is not 1st hand information, but I also heard that ammunition in the area described would be loaded with small quantaties of C-4. Has anyone else heard of this? Anyway back on subject J_Smith---Glad to see you R ok. Good luck with getting a new rifle out of this. I hope it works in your favor and please keep us updated.
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You can't "double charge" a a .223 round, the powder goes right up to the neck on one charge. Mixing powders, or wrong powder.....but "double charge" impossible using the standard powders used in the .223/5.56 round. |
Correct. But you can "overcharge" a .223 round, using standard ball powder commonly used in blasting rounds, and cause an overpressure situation. |
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From the looks of the damge done, I'd say it was an out of battery detonation, possibly caused by a slam fire. The pics aren't the best, but the damage looks like it it well aft of the chamber area. EDIT: After reading the UPDATE on the original post, I'm convinced it was a bore obstruction from a previous squib and another round fired behind it. A clear bore would have not lodged a bullet with that much pressure behind it. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. Would like to see a picture of the barrel under the handguards....somethiong tells me theres a buldge in the barrel where the TWO bullets are lodged. |
I agree. I also think the bolt wasn't seated completely. I'm definitely not a professional gunsmith, but what I see in one of the pictures is uneven damage on the bolt tangs. That is from what I see in the fifth picture. The tangs are damaged at an angle. It looks as if they weren't completely behind the locking lugs of the chamber as the round was fired. It looks as if the detonation made the bolt slip out from behind the locking lugs, which dented them. That could also explain the bullet lodged in the bore... but I doubt it. Either that... or maybe the previous round was only a primer, which made the bullet get stuck in the bore, and the second round was obstructed. But, I doubt that... because the action wouldn't have cycled with the previous round if it were to have been stuck in the barrel. I'm just guessing from what I see... please don't rip me a new one for anything stupid I may have said. |
According to my Armorer Course instructor, who happens to manufacture a commercial line of AR-15 rifles, this system cannot fire out of battery. |
It can if you have a high primer. |
"Cannot" meaning the firing pin cannot strike the primer OOB. Which is partially correct. The AR can fire OOB, if a high primer exists and the bolt face strikes the primer while guiding the round into the chamber. This is pretty rare... but basically fires the round in the chamber, detonating it before the bolt rotates into locked position. See how the bolt leading edges are chipped? This would lead one to believe that they were JUST beginning to lock when the detonation occured (or unlocked with a LOT of pressure still in the chamber) I dont know if this is an OOB firing, but it can happen in the case of a high primer. Secondly, the firing pin *can* strike the primer OOB in the AR system, if you forget to install the carrier gas key on the carrier. This allows the carrier to rotate in the upper, and fire when not locked behind the lugs of the barrel extension. This happened to a member here. So when ammo and weapon are within spec.... you are correct. If the "armorer" didnt caveat that statement, he would be wrong. |
If it had been a slam fire, I would have expected the original poster to mention the fact that he never touched the trigger. |
Damn you.  The question I posed him was actually regarding the hammer not being held by the disconnector, and following the carrier back into battery. In that scenario, the round could not fire until the bolt locked up, allowing the free floating firing pin to strike the primer. |
Yes, the standard load for M855 ball is 26.1 grains and it is possible to fit ~29 grains in the case and still be able to seat the SS109 bullet BUT it will not cause the damage shown in the pictures. What happens is the primer pocket expands, gas leaks out and the primer ruptures. It doesn't CATO the upper. Now if it is a significantly faster propellent, like AA1680, then you might get a bit more damage. |
If you recall the original post, you will see the shooter had to force the bolt and carrier open with a hammer. The bolt split and wedged itself into the barrel extension, causing the visible damage to the lugs and effectively locking the bolt into the extension. Had this been an OOB, the bolt and carrier would have been blown open. |
Ok, question then - if the bolt was locked, and remained locked, what cause the damage to the carrier, where it was cracked and split? Typically, it seems we see this type of damage caused by the bolt being slammed back into the carrier, no? If the bolt remained locked, then the pressure had to go somewhere... so the carrier was damaged by gas pressure alone? If so - did this bressure vent through the bolt, or thought the gas key? I guess what I am asking is, how did the carrier get so much damage, if the bolt remained locked? |
When the base of the case ruptured, the brass web was forced into the bolt face recess, causing the bolt to split. The gas then had a path into the carrier, causing the carrier to split. If you note, the fractures are brittle in nature with little to no visible necking, the bolt and carrier are tough but not very ductile. There are many stress concentration areas on the bolt, the greatest being the extractor cut. The carrier can withstand the PORT pressure, which is around 25,000 PSI, directed through a 0.060" port and a relatively cool stainless steel tube for 0.0001 seconds. But case rupture happens at peak pressure and is uncontrolled in volume. Furthermore, it is incredibly hot since the path is much shorter and little to no work has been done on the bullet, maximizing the enthalpy of the combustion gas. If the bolt and carrier were to have suffered a OOB, the resulting forces would not have caused such damage because the energy would have been absorbed by recoiling these parts at dangerously high velocities. The damage would have been to the buffer and buffer tube as these are aluminum. the spring would probably show overcompression damage as well. And finally, an OOB would not have allowed pressure great enough to plastically spring the upper. That itself is key to proving this indeed was a case rupture, not an OOB condition. |
The original poster's "UPDATE" says the bullet is "still lodged in the bore". This leads me to believe that there might be TWO bullets in the bore, the one that was in there from a previous squib and the one that couldn't exit beacuse of the obstructed bore, causing the KB. If the bore were clear, the bullet would have shot out of the barrel under so much pressure. There is NO way it would have lodged in the bore with that much pressure behind it. I had a failure due to an inadvertant mix of two powders that destroyed an M1A.....but the bullet fired clear of the bore. The resultant explosion ruptured the case, chipped the bolt, blew out the mag, split the stock AND broke it off at the grip. I'm curious to see just how many bullets are driven out of the bore and whether the barrel is buldged at the point where two bullets are stuck in the bore. The more I read on this, the more it sounds like a case of A. Not recognizing a squib and B Improper proceedure to clear a squib and jacking a round in behind it, forcing the bolt closed and pulling the trigger. |
I checked the bore - its physically impossible for there to be two bullets in that bore. There is barely enough room in it for the .223 round which failed to exit. Its not visibly bulged anywhere - I could see through the Daniel Defense freefloat handguard pretty well. MCC should have my rifle early next week. Just trying to figure out "how" to get my rifle back as I'll be deployed for about 45 days soon. Does UPS have a way to "hold" packages like the Postal Service? or No?? |
You might see if your favorite local FFL will recieve it and hold it for you... |
I think that the powder does not go right up to the neck on one charge. Try getting a 5.56mm (M193) round and shake it. You could hear the powder when you shake the ammo. That means there's still room inside the case. If the case is packed with powder up to the case neck, you can't hear the powder when you shake the round. |
You're right with the ammo spiked with C-4. |
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Did you purchase this last year on the group buy from MCC? I have along with several friends some of the ammo from that buy and my concern is the safety of the ammo in both .223 and .308. I remember they had a machine problem that took a while to fix and a lot of folks did not get their ammo and pulled out of the group buy. Please keep us informed, I am going to take a sample of mine to a local reloadind shop and have it checked out. |
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Just want to say Glad you alright and secondly i would like to thank you for your post, one mans apin is another mans gain i wont be shooting MCC anymore through my pistols sory again man hope they fix it for you i wouldnt waste money on a lawyer, buy the time you pay him prob be better off to fix or buy a new rifle, and outcome wouldnt be good i dont think, ammo being that old and no way t prove someone didnt tamper or reaload it, |
Had a bullet lodged in the bore, it would have to happen when the bullet's velocity is relatively low. As such, it would not cycle the action. It is almost impossible for that to happen in the AR. In this case, the brass ruptured at the peak pressure which happens when the bullet velocity is low and only traveled a few inches down the bore. The sudden loss of pressure with the high engraving forces and drag stopped the bullet, causing it to be stuck in the bore before the gas port. J_smith has adequately described the circumstances, if not in language we all can understand. His pictures speak volumes. |
Unless he fired a squib which lodged before the gas port and then manually cycled the weapon to load the next round and fired it it is not possible for it to have happened as he explained it and it be attributed to a squib load and stuck bullet. His rifle could not possibly have cycled on it's own from the squib as there would have been zero pressure to unlock the bolt with a bullet stuck behind the port. I do have to ask J_Smith though... is the bullet lodged on the chamber side of gas port or the muzzel side? From reading I got the impression it's on the chamber side and i can't imagine it getting past the gas port but not exiting the bore. |
The bullet is lodged about 2 inches before the gas port. The gas block is at 12" down the barrel iirc and the bullet is at about 10" down the bore from the chamber. The bolt never cycled to the rear. Only with a hammer did I get the carrier to go back. The bolt was in battery after the mishap because the explosion knocked it out of battery. I sent the rifle to MCC since its basically my only option. I'm not spending $1000 on a legal battle and hope and pray this guy is honest in his assessment of the mishap. I KNOW what you happened. You all KNOW what happened. Its a matter of getting this guy on the same page and accepting responsibility for subpar ammunition. |
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Hey Jon its Adam Im sorry that your rife shit the bed last weekend. Just look at the bright side in a few months you will be able to blow up all the rifles you want on my newly built range thanks to the work you and Joshua did. Oh and everybody I was there when the rifle blew up and it looks worse in person.
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Heh...thanks  Yeah - just glad I wasn't injured. The company should have the rifle and a sample of the ammo this coming week. Just hope the guy has integrity when he looks at it. Next time I go shooting I think I'm going to wear an EOD bomb disposal suit "just in case". You never know when your gun is going to become a frag grenade. |
Fixed it for you. Very few people have been injured in AR KBs. Not so with Glocks and M9s. |
| Alright guy's, just a thought. Instead of a bullet setback from being held loosely by the case, could the bullet have moved forward enough when chambered to jam into the rifleing and allow the pressure to escape backwards ? Maybe the original bullet still in the barrel ? I'm no expert, so if this sounds stupid, please ignore. |
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Well I just spoke to the owner of MCC. He claims he had two gunsmiths look at the rifle last week while it was at his shop. And that supposedly the bolt wasn't fully seated forward and somehow the firing pin struck the primer without it being properly chambered. Sounds like BS to me because to my knowledge - AR's don't fire out of battery. Also claimed they checked headspacing and for "high pressure". No idea how one checks for "high pressure". He said the bolt couldnt have been in battery because the projectile never left the bore. He also went on to mention that he ships thousands of rounds of ammunition to Bushmaster for testing their rifles and has never had a complaint. Maybe I should see if Bushmaster agrees. I seem to remember complaints on quality control from other individuals. Hmmm. I don't buy it - but I lack paperwork (proving I purchased the ammunition back in 1999/2000) and funds (not hiring a lawyer for 300-500 worth of damage). Rifle is supposed to be shipped back on Monday. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My AR15 KaBoomed - from Maine Cartridge Co. SS109 (Updated Page 14 More Lying/More Stupidity) (Page 3 of 7)
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