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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - JJE-H&R LLC acquisition of NoDak Spud (Page 8 of 89)
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Quoted: Hell, I don't care what color your M16A1 and XM16E1 lower receivers are. I'd be glad to buy several in the white!! Seriously, I'm surprised that some people don't understand A) These are clone lower receivers, so they will not be 100% accurate of a real M16A1 lower receiver AND B) The reasons why you're simplifying the initial H&R items at first. Honestly, "grey" would be to color of choice for most. I'm pretty sure that black lower receivers will follow once sales become steady and this investment shows high level of success to keep this investment going. All I know is that you will never please everybody, but if you can make 90+% of the buying public happy, I'd say you're doing a great job in that area!! People realize this isn't going to be 100% pure retro "authentic", so they're using the this thread as a wish list of sorts. I disagree about gray/grey being the color of choice for most. It will be the color of choice for most of the posters in this forum, but PSA will want to appeal to the masses, and the masses mostly buy black. Colt, PSA, S&W, and everyone else mostly use black for good reasons. Notwithstanding the consistency issues with gray annodizing, more black ARs are sold that any other color. I'm not suggesting that grey won't sell, but the purists in this forum won't be the majority and I'm sure PSA knows that. Since the purists won't be happy that these aren't authentic anyway, with them not being roll-marked, not having furniture and other things made from original materials and to exacting dimensions, and every other thing that purists will be looking for, the driving market will initially be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not truly retro. Same as the Brownell's rifles, and same as the retro line of rifles made for Colt and sold under their name. Most everyone here understands and because of it, I mentioned black, which is what will move the fastest. Particularly if PSA is subbing out the gray initially, instead of doing it in house. Given that it will be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not retro accurate who will be helping to make the project successful in the beginning, we're simply sharing that with Mike and Jamin/PSA. They posted here, ostensibly to illicit our feedback; and that's what they're getting. So do as we're doing, tell the guys offering products for sale, exactly what you'd like to buy. If it won't fly, Mike will be sure to tell you, but he won't ever know what we want to buy, if we don't tell him in return. It's important for companies to hear the feedback their potential customers which is why those potential customers are posting it here. |
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Quoted: I believe most everyone in this thread understands that. You're making the case that they understand, without intending to. People realize this isn't going to be 100% pure retro "authentic", so they're using the this thread as a wish list of sorts. I disagree about gray/grey being the color of choice for most. It will be the color of choice for most of the posters in this forum, but PSA will want to appeal to the masses, and the masses mostly buy black. Colt, PSA, S&W, and everyone else mostly use black for good reasons. Notwithstanding the consistency issues with gray annodizing, more black ARs are sold that any other color. I'm not suggesting that grey won't sell, but the purists in this forum won't be the majority and I'm sure PSA knows that. Since the purists won't be happy that these aren't authentic anyway, with them not being roll-marked, not having furniture and other things made from original materials and to exacting dimensions, and every other thing that purists will be looking for, the driving market will initially be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not truly retro. Same as the Brownell's rifles, and same as the retro line of rifles made for Colt and sold under their name. Most everyone here understands and because of it, I mentioned black, which is what will move the fastest. Particularly if PSA is subbing out the gray initially, instead of doing it in house. Given that it will be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not retro accurate who will be helping to make the project successful in the beginning, we're simply sharing that with Mike and Jamin/PSA. They posted here, ostensibly to illicit our feedback; and that's what they're getting. So do as we're doing, tell the guys offering products for sale, exactly what you'd like to buy. If it won't fly, Mike will be sure to tell you, but he won't ever know what we want to buy, if we don't tell him in return. It's important for companies to hear the feedback their potential customers which is why those potential customers are posting it here. Quoted: Quoted: Hell, I don't care what color your M16A1 and XM16E1 lower receivers are. I'd be glad to buy several in the white!! Seriously, I'm surprised that some people don't understand A) These are clone lower receivers, so they will not be 100% accurate of a real M16A1 lower receiver AND B) The reasons why you're simplifying the initial H&R items at first. Honestly, "grey" would be to color of choice for most. I'm pretty sure that black lower receivers will follow once sales become steady and this investment shows high level of success to keep this investment going. All I know is that you will never please everybody, but if you can make 90+% of the buying public happy, I'd say you're doing a great job in that area!! People realize this isn't going to be 100% pure retro "authentic", so they're using the this thread as a wish list of sorts. I disagree about gray/grey being the color of choice for most. It will be the color of choice for most of the posters in this forum, but PSA will want to appeal to the masses, and the masses mostly buy black. Colt, PSA, S&W, and everyone else mostly use black for good reasons. Notwithstanding the consistency issues with gray annodizing, more black ARs are sold that any other color. I'm not suggesting that grey won't sell, but the purists in this forum won't be the majority and I'm sure PSA knows that. Since the purists won't be happy that these aren't authentic anyway, with them not being roll-marked, not having furniture and other things made from original materials and to exacting dimensions, and every other thing that purists will be looking for, the driving market will initially be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not truly retro. Same as the Brownell's rifles, and same as the retro line of rifles made for Colt and sold under their name. Most everyone here understands and because of it, I mentioned black, which is what will move the fastest. Particularly if PSA is subbing out the gray initially, instead of doing it in house. Given that it will be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not retro accurate who will be helping to make the project successful in the beginning, we're simply sharing that with Mike and Jamin/PSA. They posted here, ostensibly to illicit our feedback; and that's what they're getting. So do as we're doing, tell the guys offering products for sale, exactly what you'd like to buy. If it won't fly, Mike will be sure to tell you, but he won't ever know what we want to buy, if we don't tell him in return. It's important for companies to hear the feedback their potential customers which is why those potential customers are posting it here. You lost me at black appealing to the majority of buyers. These are m16a1 clones...... originals were all different shades of gray. People buy clones to be as close as they can get to the originals. Not every ar needs to be black these days to sell to the masses. Purists can still find furniture. Authentic furniture is still not to difficult to find for the non rare variants. There are plenty of cheap black a1's floating around the market already. This project has the potential to be unique. |
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Quoted: You lost me at black appealing to the majority of buyers. These are m16a1 clones...... originals were all different shades of gray. People buy clones to be as close as they can get to the originals. Not every ar needs to be black these days to sell to the masses. Purists can still find furniture. Authentic furniture is still not to difficult to find for the non rare variants. There are plenty of cheap black a1's floating around the market already. This project has the potential to be unique. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hell, I don't care what color your M16A1 and XM16E1 lower receivers are. I'd be glad to buy several in the white!! Seriously, I'm surprised that some people don't understand A) These are clone lower receivers, so they will not be 100% accurate of a real M16A1 lower receiver AND B) The reasons why you're simplifying the initial H&R items at first. Honestly, "grey" would be to color of choice for most. I'm pretty sure that black lower receivers will follow once sales become steady and this investment shows high level of success to keep this investment going. All I know is that you will never please everybody, but if you can make 90+% of the buying public happy, I'd say you're doing a great job in that area!! People realize this isn't going to be 100% pure retro "authentic", so they're using the this thread as a wish list of sorts. I disagree about gray/grey being the color of choice for most. It will be the color of choice for most of the posters in this forum, but PSA will want to appeal to the masses, and the masses mostly buy black. Colt, PSA, S&W, and everyone else mostly use black for good reasons. Notwithstanding the consistency issues with gray annodizing, more black ARs are sold that any other color. I'm not suggesting that grey won't sell, but the purists in this forum won't be the majority and I'm sure PSA knows that. Since the purists won't be happy that these aren't authentic anyway, with them not being roll-marked, not having furniture and other things made from original materials and to exacting dimensions, and every other thing that purists will be looking for, the driving market will initially be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not truly retro. Same as the Brownell's rifles, and same as the retro line of rifles made for Colt and sold under their name. Most everyone here understands and because of it, I mentioned black, which is what will move the fastest. Particularly if PSA is subbing out the gray initially, instead of doing it in house. Given that it will be those who are willing to accept retro inspired and not retro accurate who will be helping to make the project successful in the beginning, we're simply sharing that with Mike and Jamin/PSA. They posted here, ostensibly to illicit our feedback; and that's what they're getting. So do as we're doing, tell the guys offering products for sale, exactly what you'd like to buy. If it won't fly, Mike will be sure to tell you, but he won't ever know what we want to buy, if we don't tell him in return. It's important for companies to hear the feedback their potential customers which is why those potential customers are posting it here. You lost me at black appealing to the majority of buyers. These are m16a1 clones...... originals were all different shades of gray. People buy clones to be as close as they can get to the originals. Not every ar needs to be black these days to sell to the masses. Purists can still find furniture. Authentic furniture is still not to difficult to find for the non rare variants. There are plenty of cheap black a1's floating around the market already. This project has the potential to be unique. He’s right. The average gun owner doesn’t know the difference and likely doesn’t care. Most people will be more than happy to buy a black A1 upper and throw it on their current lower. |
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Mike Last couple of questions from me. Will pricing be about the same as when the receiver sets were sold by Nodak Spud? Between $300 to $400 a set? the m16a1 sets. ( M16a1 lowers and the matching 603 uppers) Will the 20 inch barrel assemblies be gray or black? I need at least 3 of them whatever finish they are. |
| If someone is going to do anodizing the old Colt looking grey/green color it sure would be nice to have some big hole flat top uppers for the older Colts and some standard ones that color for the early Eagle Arms and EA & company lowers. May not be perfect match but it would be better than black on them. |
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Honestly, I’m fine with Grey or Black lower receivers since physically getting my hands on a few of these receivers is my main goal. Hopefully, on the planned barrels, that all the markings will be minimum AND placed on the bottom side of the barrels, in an area that will be covered up by the handguards. I have a gut feeling that once these receivers and barrels hit the market, in numbers, I’m sure either PSA or whoever will make “more correct” furniture than the stuff from Brownells… But I could live with Brownells furniture, including the hollowed buttstocks for the time being. |
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Quoted: You lost me at black appealing to the majority of buyers. These are m16a1 clones...... originals were all different shades of gray. People buy clones to be as close as they can get to the originals. No, they don't. A small minority of gun buyers are exacting cloner buyers that want every aspect of the gun to be as correct as possible, and chase down the original Armalite stock mold at a gun show. H&R turns out a pretty correct but black M-16A1, and 87% of buyers who buy it are buying it b/c their father carried one in Vietnam, they've only ever seen them in black & white photographs, & have no idea they were supposed to be gray. It's fine to be one of the 13%, but you're not the majority of cloners. You're in a echo chamber here on ARFCOM, where good enough isn't a philosophy. |
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Quoted: H&R turns out a pretty correct but black M-16A1, and 87% of buyers who buy it are buying it b/c their father carried one in Vietnam, they've only ever seen them in black & white photographs, & have no idea they were supposed to be gray. It's fine to be one of the 13%, but you're not the majority of cloners. You're in a echo chamber here on ARFCOM, where good enough isn't a philosophy. Yep....most people think the GAU-5 was grey too which it (apparently) wasn't. |
With all due respect, not knocking the purests. I love what they do. God bless them. |
Quoted: You could always make a run of M-16A1’s in black, stamp ANAD on the mag well, and call them retro rebuilds. Win win! The majority of H&R rifles had a smooth Black finish as originally manufactured, Gray was the exception and Not the norm. No need to stamp a rebuild mark on this new venture. Wpns Man |
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Quoted: Yes, there were black ones. I've put my hands on (Gaged and Inspected) conservatively 1K+ of as manufactured H&R M16A1's back in the day, over the years. The last of which were awaiting disposition (in Army Reserve armories) as late as '06. Smooth black anodizing was the standard finish on 90%+ on these. Doing the new production in Black would be more authentically correct and help speed production, YMMV. Wpns Man |
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Quoted: I've put my hands on (Gaged and Inspected) conservatively 1K+ of as manufactured H&R M16A1's back in the day, over the years. The last of which were awaiting disposition (in Army Reserve armories) as late as '06. Smooth black anodizing was the standard finish on 90%+ on these. Doing the new production in Black would be more authentically correct and help speed production, YMMV. Wpns Man This post illustrates the situation perfectly. Is the PSA owned H&R in the business of turning out firearms like the H&R of old, or is this H&R the branch of PSA that does the non flat top PSA ARs and other US style firearms of historical fame. I suspect when PSA started to look at what it would take to make firearms that would look anything like the M16A1 and XM177, they discovered that current production was not well suited to do that. It wasn't going to be just doing different engraving on current production lowers. Of course, PSA could have done that and ended up with products competing with two other companies who turn out higher quality, more accurate from a historical perspective items. Buying NoDak eliminates one competitor in the retro market and gives PSA the opportunity to get into the retro market using expertise not currently in the company. It can go either way for good or bad, and we will see what happens. |
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Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like the aim here is to do generic clones, the fact that they will be marked as some of the originals were adds to the cool factor, but it shouldn’t hamstring production. Trying to nail down wether or not it’s correct for H&R isn’t all that relevant IMO, what matters is that they are configured in the manner that is typical to M16A1s of the era. |
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Quoted: Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like the aim here is to do generic clones, the fact that they will be marked as some of the originals were adds to the cool factor, but it shouldn’t hamstring production. Trying to nail down wether or not it’s correct for H&R isn’t all that relevant IMO, what matters is that they are configured in the manner that is typical to M16A1s of the era. I don’t think “generic clones” is the aim at all. Considering manufactures back in the day often made changes to production based on many factors, an exact replica of an entire set of production years would be near impossible. Aside from the manufacturers address, and the lack of that tiny hole above the fire selector (goodbye friend), Mike and PSA seem to be working very hard to make a near identical reproduction (even going back to original style roll marks maybe). As far as anodizing goes, even modern day “black” doesn’t always match between runs or manufacturers. Some folks may be good with black, others like the grey (all 50 shades of it). I had never really been a clone guy, I didn't appreciate the history properly. But touring PSA last year and seeing the entire AR manufacturing process start to finish, along with this and similar threads, and doing some homework, well that changed. I'm looking forward to seeing how this lower/ H&R line evolves. My first clone will be with a new H&R lower. EDITED: Dangit! @backbencher beat me to the "historical" color variation jab by 43 seconds! |
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You guys sure go into the weeds sometimes. History has shown that the retro market is most sustainable as a parts supplier. Complete guns can sell, but the advanced builders/collectors typically nitpick them to death. This influences the casuals and hurts sales. H&R is going to do parts and “some” rifles, probably in a two tier system. But receivers and barrels is where the money is. 
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Quoted: You guys sure go into the weeds sometimes. History has shown that the retro market is most sustainable as a parts supplier. Complete guns can sell, but the advanced builders/collectors typically nitpick them to death. This influences the casuals and hurts sales. H&R is going to do parts and "some" rifles, probably in a two tier system. But receivers and barrels is where the money is. 
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Quoted: There were definitely gray h&r rifles. Pics aren't mine and were pulled from another forum. Never said there weren't any gray H&R's, only that they were in the minority. That example is to light of gray for having no finish wear to it. The anti-walk pins tell me it's someone's NFA and looks refinished to my eyes. YMMV Wpns Man |
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Mike-- I know this is a bit off the topic, since NoDak Spud is no longer with us and for the sake of history is it possible to get us a listing of NoDak production of Retro receiver numbers and serial number ranges before they are lost to history. Thanks --fjruple |
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Quoted: You guys sure go into the weeds sometimes. History has shown that the retro market is most sustainable as a parts supplier. Complete guns can sell, but the advanced builders/collectors typically nitpick them to death. This influences the casuals and hurts sales. H&R is going to do parts and “some” rifles, probably in a two tier system. But receivers and barrels is where the money is. So... M231 marked receivers then?
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Quoted: Mike-- I know this is a bit off the topic, since NoDak Spud is no longer with us and for the sake of history is it possible to get us a listing of NoDak production of Retro receiver numbers and serial number ranges before they are lost to history. Thanks --fjruple Most NoDak products will continue to be produced. Some will change branding, some will not. I can post the ending SN’s for the A1, XM, 601, 635, and NDS-15 Prototype lowers. |
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Quoted: You guys sure go into the weeds sometimes. History has shown that the retro market is most sustainable as a parts supplier. Complete guns can sell, but the advanced builders/collectors typically nitpick them to death. This influences the casuals and hurts sales. H&R is going to do parts and “some” rifles, probably in a two tier system. But receivers and barrels is where the money is. Luckily, the pieces in shortest supply are exactly those mentioned. Any chance you will be getting 601-style chromed BCG’s as well? I’ve noticed those have dried up along with barrels and receivers. |
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Quoted: You guys sure go into the weeds sometimes. History has shown that the retro market is most sustainable as a parts supplier. Complete guns can sell, but the advanced builders/collectors typically nitpick them to death. This influences the casuals and hurts sales. H&R is going to do parts and “some” rifles, probably in a two tier system. But receivers and barrels is where the money is. 656 uppers and gas blocks? Do eeeeeeeeet |
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Quoted: But receivers and barrels is where the money is. The first responsibility of any business is to turn a profit. Most people have no clue how hard that usually is. Been there, done that, paid for my own damn t-shirt, that hard way. Pickers of nits tend to overlook that messy little detail, in my experience. You can't sell things for less than the cost of production plus a reasonable profit. Unless you're a Communist  . |
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Quoted: The first responsibility of any business is to turn a profit. PSA does a pretty good job of maximizing the dollar amount of each sale. You dont go to PSA and buy a buffer tube or a barrel. You buy a complete upper, complete lower, lower kit, or pistol/rifle kit. Sure, there may be more profit per part in the retro barrels or receivers. But if they bundle that receiver set or barrel with a full build kit, they turn a $200 sale into a $700+ sale. Thats how you turn a profit. And when PSA/H&R get everything fired up, I'm more than happy to pay for a full retro gun. I want the receiver, the barrel, the furniture. Put the whole thing together in little baggies and sent it my way. Gray or black, I don't care. Both are correct. |
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Quoted: PSA does a pretty good job of maximizing the dollar amount of each sale. You dont go to PSA and buy a buffer tube or a barrel. You buy a complete upper, complete lower, lower kit, or pistol/rifle kit. Sure, there may be more profit per part in the retro barrels or receivers. But if they bundle that receiver set or barrel with a full build kit, they turn a $200 sale into a $700+ sale. Thats how you turn a profit. And when PSA/H&R get everything fired up, I'm more than happy to pay for a full retro gun. I want the receiver, the barrel, the furniture. Put the whole thing together in little baggies and sent it my way. Gray or black, I don't care. Both are correct. I would not disagree with any of that. Mike & PSA have identified certain common grounds and goals and have a history of successfully conducting profitable businesses. I'm 100% certain that they have a business plan (how could they not?) that will expand and morph over time (how could it not?). It is exciting to watch. I want one of those little Israeli car-beans. Whether it comes in pieces/parts or as a complete car-bean, whatever, just take my money. |
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Quoted: Sure, there may be more profit per part in the retro barrels or receivers. But if they bundle that receiver set or barrel with a full build kit, they turn a $200 sale into a $700+ sale. Thats how you turn a profit. Mike knows his business, and what he said is right on the money. In addition to the retro market desiring 1) barrels and 2) receivers, you don't want any of the small components from PSA getting mixed in there- pins that snap, shiny castle nuts that weigh nothing... twisty gas blocks (though this will not be a problem for retro guns). PSA could, in fact, do *better* selling just parts. I've cannibalized 2 x "PSA Premium" uppers just for the excellent FN barrels and junked the rest, and I know several others who have done the same. |
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Quoted: PSA could, in fact, do *better* selling just parts. I've cannibalized 2 x "PSA Premium" uppers just for the excellent FN barrels and junked the rest, and I know several others who have done the same. This is how I do it half the time. I got one of their CHF uppers on order now just for the barrel+front sight "assembly". The upper is spare parts for a rainy day. And a couple weeks back, a buddy ordered a 10.5" from them and right out of the box, I bought the handguard+barrel nut off him and we switched his over to a midwest industries one. |
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Quoted: Does this mean my NODAK lowers are worth more, less or? Selling crap anyway, just don’t know whether this hurts or benefits me. I’m sitting on 10-12 new NoDak AR receivers and once I can get my hands on these new H&R receivers, I’ll be selling those NDS receivers off to fund my purchases of H&R receivers and barrels. |
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Quoted: No, they don't. A small minority of gun buyers are exacting cloner buyers that want every aspect of the gun to be as correct as possible, and chase down the original Armalite stock mold at a gun show. H&R turns out a pretty correct but black M-16A1, and 87% of buyers who buy it are buying it b/c their father carried one in Vietnam, they've only ever seen them in black & white photographs, & have no idea they were supposed to be gray. It's fine to be one of the 13%, but you're not the majority of cloners. You're in a echo chamber here on ARFCOM, where good enough isn't a philosophy. I'm part of that 87 percent. I love the look and feel of retro guns but I'm not looking for 100 percent accurate replica. |
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Quoted: A semiautomatic grease gun is a boat anchor imho. I seriously doubt sales would justify the cost to tool up for it. Quoted: A semiautomatic grease gun is a boat anchor imho. I seriously doubt sales would justify the cost to tool up for it. At the potential price point? I think its a dumb idea too but I'd buy one for $300 just for the lols. Quoted: I think we need to do a 653 and an Israeli carbine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/91277/Ranger_JPEG-921180.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/91277/Israeli_Carbine2-909100.jpg I came to this thread to suggest a 723 but the 653 is fine too. |
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Is there a reason why we don't see engraved fake third pins? (I spent quite a while in search function looking for answer. I know I've seen at least one commercial release with the fake pin. Not sure if it made production.) ETA - I used the Googlemonster instead of ARF search and got the story. Basically, ATF overreach and we are too smart to poke the bully. I also learned to hate Steve Troy. Attached File |
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Quoted: Is there a reason why we don't see engraved fake third pins? (I spent quite a while in search function looking for answer. I know I've seen at least one commercial release with the fake pin. Not sure if it made production.) We had a member have their 80% (unfinished) lower seized at an anodizer by the ATF for having a fake 3rd pin.* It used to be common but I dont think anyone will touch it now. *to the best of my memory, its been a few years. I dont even remember what his screen name was but he used to post a bunch. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - JJE-H&R LLC acquisition of NoDak Spud (Page 8 of 89)
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