Mark ignored my point about the flaw in his use of Challenge data to claim superior accuracy.   He keeps changing the topic to avoid the effect of skewed data from his marketing.  

My point is simply that resort to the Challenge data does not prove that other barrels are not as accurate.  In statistics we would say that the data lacks strength in many ways, not the least of which is that other manufacturers barrels are under represented.  The most likely reason is marketing.  Nothing wrong with that...I applaud him for it.  Its the American way.   But it does not prove that other barrels are less accurate, only that they are under represented in the sample being compared.

My challenge still stands and I will admit to not being the best shooter.  Your Lilja vs my Stealth.

I'm using a 10x scope and store-bought ammo.  Give me the rules you want to play by, and I'm game.

ETA:. To the OPs original question.  There are many variables to determining "better" or "best".  No doubt Krieger is a highly regarded brand for a reason.  But ML made a good point in only the way ML can..."skin some meat off.."

What I think he was saying is he will put his barrels up against any other similarly profiled barrels.  My Stealth isn't what I would consider lightweight.  But it is much lighter than many of the bull profiles out there.  You have to compare like-for-like, to get an accurate result.  

ETA:. And once again to MS56.... I honestly don't know the outcome of my challenge.  Very likely to be schooled by an older gentleman.  Honestly just curious.

Understood.  Probably give it a try.  I think our barrel profiles are similar.  I can't get a weight on the Larue barrels from their website.  Maybe Mark can tell us if he can stop marketing for a moment.  Mine is about 35 ounces.

Mark's comments to Molon has changed my mind about considering a LaRue Stealth barrel for my next SPR build.

Even though LaRue's current price to accuracy ratio for their barrels is very attractive and well documented, Mark's self-aggrandizement and pokes at respected members really disappoints me.  



Molon's presence here has consistently been full of helpful controlled, scientific, and unbiased reviews that you rarely see in the shooting world (using multiple barrels on each review typically - not just a sample of 1), where most people have an agenda to try and sell equipment and/or advertisements in their publications.

That's okay.  I'm planning on buying another because I like his straight-up style and fantastic products.

So maybe we will cancel each other out.

And, Molon is a respected member and is great at what he does.  But he's also a big-boy and doesn't mind throwing jabs either.

You bet man.  I think they are similar.  I should have weighed mine before I installed it.  That's really why I think a barrel like yours is a better comparison.  I know for a fact from your initial evidence that yours definitely is a shooter.  So honestly....I dunno.  Lol.  Shame we don't live a little closer so you/we could check them out in person.

I got a feeling we would agree to liking both.

You are trying to throw ARFCOM into economic collapse.  

 

No feels were hurt, I just personally prefer seeing a bit of humility in lieu of intentionally putting others down to create an air of superiority, or handicapping the requirements to make things appear equal.  To each his own!

I have nothing to add except for this barrel that came in the mail today.

Well, I guess that seals the deal! LaRue is willing to swing some purses in order to defend his product and win customers! I'm placing an order tonight!

I'm inclined to agree.  Either barrel is probably better than me on a good day.

I am wondering if Molon has ever tried a Larue barrel in any of his ammo tests?
Would be curious to see how one would do clamped in block in a front rest like the one he used for his Krieger barrel review pictured below.

You could always offer barrel blanks like other premium barrel makers...

A shooter made a ridiculous claim which happens all of the time.  Molon, like many others, probably gets tired of seeing this kind of stuff posted as fact.  

I don't think it's a dig at Larue barrels.  He's simply pointing out the ridiculous claim.  Maybe a bit a brash, but "Ronbo" got taught a lesson.  

I'm glad ar15.com has the MOA All Day challenge and the Wall of Claim.  Cuts down on the BS.

Going to try to shoot the MOA Challenge again and try to see how the Larue 20" Stealth does again within the next week or so.
Will be hard to improve on what I got but damned if I am not going to at least try.

Besides that one .806 group pisses me off because I know it was all my fault, as I shot too quickly and heat waves were giving me fits at that point.....And I still shot anyway.
I know it sounds crazy being pissed about that one group especially since my other barrels I would consider it very good, but as I shot I knew the barrel is better than I am by a large margin. When you get barrels like that you just go-.

Clamping a rifle in a front rest may reveal it's ultimate potential but I like to hone my skills and save money on ammo. I like being part of the equation when I shoot even if I may blow it now and then.
There is nothing wrong with doing tests as Molon does. I do think his reviews are of benefit to many of us that cannot afford to shoot controlled tests ourselves on the multitude of different manufactured ammo out there.

When I work up some hand loads I bet the Larue will be insanely accurate and I will try it again with them later as well. It already is out shooting me with factory ammo.
I realize most barrels can outshoot the operator but when you get one like this it really opens your eyes. People that shoot a lot know what I am trying to convey.

I consider myself a decent shot but not the greatest by any means. If I can do it with the Larue barrel then I think many others can as well which is proven by all the Larue barrels showing up in the MOA Challenge results.
I have shot in the AR-15 platform Larue, Lothar Walther, Green Mountain, Krieger, WOA, Douglas, Wilson, Ballistic Advantage and many others.
When I say the Larue barrel I have is the best I have ever shot it comes from someone that has a comparison of many examples over the years.

Can I guarantee your Larue barrel can shoot like mine? No, but I would bet you will kick yourself in the butt if you do not get one and see before the sale ends on July 4th!
My barrel as Mr. Larue stated was one on sale and it's obvious they shoot extremely well.
No fan boy or crap like that just a person that when I get something that performs way beyond my expectations... I will pass on to others that fact so they may enjoy the same.
Just do it.

Are the LaRue barrels tested before being sold? Maybe a dumb question certainly a noob one!

Krieger makes a great barrel for plugging into an AR15.   You don't see as many bartleins on ar15s.  I have a krieger in 6.5 creedmoor and its a great barrel on a great gun.  I don't have one on an AR15 but would like to have one some day.  I haven't had time for much hand loading lately so I have been a bit forgiving on overall accuracy capabilities.  That said I recently got a white oak armament through brownells and it has been a great shooting barrel.  Satern barrels is just down the road and I have been watching for them to have something I just need to come in stock randomly.

I hope molon doesn't run off over some industry partner.

I got a barrel in the mail yesterday that didn't look particularly clean, so I gave it a quick scrubbing and threw it on an upper that has been giving me trouble in the accuracy dept.

I should note that it's hot as balls in Houston this time of year and even at 100 yards, mirage was something my spotter and I were dealing with.

Went to the range today and tried a few different kinds of ammo:

hornady match 75gr
black hills 52gr match
hornady TAP 75gr 223
fiocchi 77gr smk
FGMM 69gr smk
Nosler 69gr match

I sighted in with the 52gr black hills since I have a couple hundred rounds of it, but it didn't prove to shoot very well.
The hornady 75gr match wasn't very accurate in this barrel either, shooting roughly 2" groups.
The nosler 69gr shot somewhat better, coming in at .987" center to center
Fiocchi shot well, .778
Hornady Tap shot very well , at .57" I think I may have pulled a shot in this group. More testing of this one is going to happen.
FGMM was the rockstar of this test, turning in a 5 shot group measuring .351" I'll probably end up stretching the legs on this on the next range trip.

The barrel shot extremely well with all but two of the loads I had on hand for it's first range trip, and at under $300, it outperforms the barrel it replaced for almost half the price. No break-in procedure or other voodoo was done on this barrel before sight in and testing. All groups and sight in were shot using a surefire socom 556rc. There were no malfunctions of any kind during this test.


Obviously this is a sample of one, and is statistically meaningless, but so was the noveske barrel it replaced.

Molon has a valid point that there needs to be a specific scientific method to test and quantify precision.

Are the LaRue groups measured using AMR or Extreme Spread?  It looks like ES which is the least accuracy measurement method from a purely statistical standpoint.  AMR is a much more precise method to determine performance from round to round.  

10 shot groups are not required for zero but if you are specifically testing the precision of a system, they are the scientifically correct method which should also be followed up by AMR measurements, not ES.  

There is too much confusion here on 3 vs 10 and ES vs AMR.  10 shots is for testing and AMR is likewise used to quantify true shot to shot precision.

ES and 3 shot groups are for zero and confirming what has already been proven.  

See DonKey153's response-"Obviously this is a sample of one, and is statistically meaningless, but so was the noveske barrel it replaced."

See what I mean all. Don't be the guy kicking himself in the arse for not getting one while they are on sale

Chrome lined?

Years ago when I got a Lilja barrel for my Winchester model 70 in .270 Win, I chased really small groups. Realizing that this gun was going to be a deer killing machine, I figured It was far more important where the first shot lands than the subsequent shots, so I devised my own accuracy testing procedure.

Go to the range and fire one shot under field conditions, pack up and go home. Repeat this once a week for about five or six weeks with no regard to the weather conditions. I did this at 200 yards and could cover all the rounds with my fist. All of them would have easily put the lights out on any whitetail.

Don't get me wrong, small groups are nice, but you have to keep things in perspective for the intended use of the weapon.

273 iirc with ship, tax, and m4 ramps. So sub $300.

Preliminary tests indicate I stole it from you at that price too.

Sounds like it broke in at the end.





 

What's the weight difference between a 20" DCM and Stealth?

We'll agree to disagree then.

I don't buy into 3 round groups.  Not saying your barrels aren't accurate or that this Ronbo fella isn't a good shooter.  I'm saying that shooting 3 round groups for accuracy claims means little.

Molon's made an excellent case for using 10 round groups to analyze barrels and ammunition.


ETA: And I'll guarantee "Ronbo" wasn't shooting that POS superperformance 5.56 Hornady into 1/4 MOA groups.  I haven't found a barrel yet that will stack that ammo.

Mark,

You make great stuff....so don't take this personally...

Molon is correct on the scientifically valid method he uses to test the precision of a given load through that specific gun on that specific day.  He shoots control groups every time with known ammo at the same range, same gear, eliminating as many variables as possible.  

He is correct with his methodology.  

It doesn't mean that another barrel or ammo won't perform to the same level...just that he has a clear method (not dissimilar from some parts of DOD on the procurement side who do similar lot acceptance testing of ammo) for proving on paper what does what.

I have zero doubt that you could send Molon or someone a similar upper and it would perform in a similar manner under the same conditions.  Barrel making isn't magic.  

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised you guys are still using humans to shoot the rifles.  I figured a machining guru such as yourself would have a test fixture made up to take the human element out and thus shrink groups even farther...

Off topic but I am in the market for a aim point sight a LaRue has some great deals on that as well!

Any help with this question? Weight?

I'll bet everything I own this guy could not shoot a 1/4 MOA 5 shot group with 5.56 Superperformance hornady.  I don't care what barrel he uses.


Again, it has nothing to do with the barrel.  I don't venture to TOS so I don't know, nor care, what bias the site or its owners have.  


Molon has made a point of contributing statistically significant testing to the firearms community.  He saved me lots of money on hype ammo, cost me some when he uncovers an unexpected bright spot (Geco 55gr for example).  The only downside is that he isn't able to do more.

He can be abrasive.  So can you.  I'm looking for facts, not BS when researching future purchases. Your spots on the MOA ALL DAY challenge are evidence your barrels shoot well.  What's the hang-up here?

Not chrome lined.

So a potential customer has the owner of LaRue right here in a thread and I can't get an answer to questions about a product? I checked the website and could not find the info there.