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Has anyone used the Pacific Tool & Gauge $66.00 5.56 Throat and Neck reamer with any success? It would be a rather cheap solution and a considerable cost savings for reaming a .223 cal chamber out to 5.56 NATO if that is what the cut on the "5.56 cal." option is. Google Michiguns LTD |
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Here's a reamer/chamber comparison pic I drew-up, since all the ones I've seen before are drawn with tiny font size and tiny lines and arrows. All data pulled from PTG prints.
The lengths of the (L)leads and (T)throats are drawn to-scale from their start to end points. .223 Remington vs 5.56 NATO vs .223 Wylde chambers: 
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Here's a reamer/chamber comparison pic I drew-up, since all the ones I've seen before are drawn with tiny font size and tiny lines and arrows. All data pulled from PTG prints. The lengths of the (L)leads and (T)throats are drawn to-scale from their start to end points. .223 Remington vs 5.56 NATO vs .223 Wylde chambers: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p203/CHRIS65-IL/223-vs-NATO-vs-WYLDE-chambers.jpg Interesting. The body of the Wylde chamber is even "sluttier" than the 5.56mm NATO chamber. |
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A comparison of the SAAMI and NATO pressure systems (though not direct due to the difference in the location that the pressues were measured, cae mouth vs case body) from the FBI TEP:
"Independent test data has shown that ammunition tested to both SAAMI (.223) and NATO (5.56) standards typically reports SAAMI pressures 14% higher than NATO pressures. For example, ammunition showing 53,597 psi NATO showed 61,300 psi when tested to SAAMI standards." |
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New member here, looking to buy my first AR so chambering is a fair part of that decision. I'm no techie on all of this but grew up hunting, so (thankfully) I am able to follow the discussion. Here's what I have been able to glean from the conversation. 5.56 will shoot both rounds (.223 and 5.56). A .223 chamber can't handle (or shouldn't be subjected to) the pressure of the larger 5.56 casing. I see two lines of thinking in this discussion.
1. Utility - Get the 5.56 chamber because then you are able to shoot both rounds. You are able to shoot the more powerful 5.56 round with higher pressures (and I assume muzzle velocity). This would give you more knockdown power (though the type of bullet will arguable have more impact on that issue). Would this also be an argument for a more accurate setup (using a 5.56 round in a 5.56 gun)? 2. Accuracy - It occurs to me that you would want the chamber of your gun to match (as close as possible) the type of cartridge you are using. Given the very limited commercial availability of 5.56 ammo, why would someone want a 5.56 weapon (unless they were actually planning on shooting 5.56 ammo)? This discussion centers around the topic of chamber and ammunition. The real question is what impact is that going to have downrange? Now you can certainly make the argument that a .223 round in a 5.56 chamber will not be as accurate or powerful as a .223 round in a .223 chamber. It makes sense. The question is, how much of a difference will it make? My sneaking suspicion is that all but the above average marksman would even be able to tell the difference. I’m not as concerned about muzzle velocity or power, as I am about accuracy. I realize the concepts are somewhat intertwined, but this is a detailed enough discussion to separate them out. The average user (me) probably has enough glitches in their accuracy (whether through low end components or poor shooting habits), that these slight variations would not ever be noticed. All I'm getting at is unless you are shooting competitively at 400+ yds, then these chambering vs. ammunition arguments probably don't play a very significant role. For most people, this is an academic debate. Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful you guys are having it as it furthers my understanding of the chambering options available in the AR line. To throw a third component into the fray, I've seen several references to the Wylde .223 chamber. This seems to be a compromise between the two. It can handle the pressure of either round, while providing a better fit for the more commonly used .223 round. So if you want absolute utility and have reasonable access to 5.56 ammo, the 5.56 chamber seems the obvious choice. That’s not me. Don’t have access to 5.56 and will be using my gun for recreational shooting. If I ever want to compete, I will most certainly buy another weapon. On the other hand, the economical choice would be to get the .223 chamber as it will give you (arguably) the most accurate setup for the price. If you just can’t make up your mind, go with the Wylde (or should you buy the Wylde in all cases?). Right now, I’m inclined to go with a .223 chamber as that is likely the only type of ammo I will ever shoot out of it. I’m a hobbyist, not a purist so it isn’t worth the time and money to search out the 5.56 rounds. If someone could tell me why I would want to use the 5.56 round or why the Wylde chamber is the superior option, I’m open to suggestion. Thanks again guys, great discussion. |
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A comparison of the SAAMI and NATO pressure systems (though not direct due to the difference in the location that the pressues were measured, case mouth vs case body) from the FBI TEP: "Independent test data has shown that ammunition tested to both SAAMI (.223) and NATO (5.56) standards typically reports SAAMI pressures 14% higher than NATO pressures. For example, ammunition showing 53,597 psi NATO showed 61,300 psi when tested to SAAMI standards." Is the pressure diferential attributable entirely to the positioning of the measuring device or is this a case of NATO pressures being developed/generated in NATO chambers, and then using those same reference cartridges in a SAAMI chamber and noting the huge pressure spike? |
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From Ned:
". . . In short, you can safely fire all 5.56 AND 223 ammunition in a gun properly chambered for 5.56. You MUST NOT fire 5.56 ammunition in a 223 rifle. As case in point, I fired XM193 5.56 ammunition in a 223 test barrel with average pressures (conformal transducer) of 72,550 psi, and peak pressure registered at 76,250 psi. . ." Wow. Just to put that into perspective, an M197 HPT (high pressure test) round generates around 70,000 PSI, with a +/- of 3k PSI if I remember correctly. Dancing with the worst case scenario isn't a habit I'd willingly choose to get into. |
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New member here, looking to buy my first AR so chambering is a fair part of that decision. I'm no techie on all of this but grew up hunting, so (thankfully) I am able to follow the discussion. Here's what I have been able to glean from the conversation. 5.56 will shoot both rounds (.223 and 5.56). A .223 chamber can't handle (or shouldn't be subjected to) the pressure of the larger 5.56 casing. I see two lines of thinking in this discussion. 1. Utility - Get the 5.56 chamber because then you are able to shoot both rounds. You are able to shoot the more powerful 5.56 round with higher pressures (and I assume muzzle velocity). This would give you more knockdown power (though the type of bullet will arguable have more impact on that issue). Would this also be an argument for a more accurate setup (using a 5.56 round in a 5.56 gun)? 2. Accuracy - It occurs to me that you would want the chamber of your gun to match (as close as possible) the type of cartridge you are using. Given the very limited commercial availability of 5.56 ammo, why would someone want a 5.56 weapon (unless they were actually planning on shooting 5.56 ammo)? This discussion centers around the topic of chamber and ammunition. The real question is what impact is that going to have downrange? Now you can certainly make the argument that a .223 round in a 5.56 chamber will not be as accurate or powerful as a .223 round in a .223 chamber. It makes sense. The question is, how much of a difference will it make? My sneaking suspicion is that all but the above average marksman would even be able to tell the difference. I’m not as concerned about muzzle velocity or power, as I am about accuracy. I realize the concepts are somewhat intertwined, but this is a detailed enough discussion to separate them out. The average user (me) probably has enough glitches in their accuracy (whether through low end components or poor shooting habits), that these slight variations would not ever be noticed. All I'm getting at is unless you are shooting competitively at 400+ yds, then these chambering vs. ammunition arguments probably don't play a very significant role. For most people, this is an academic debate. Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful you guys are having it as it furthers my understanding of the chambering options available in the AR line. To throw a third component into the fray, I've seen several references to the Wylde .223 chamber. This seems to be a compromise between the two. It can handle the pressure of either round, while providing a better fit for the more commonly used .223 round. So if you want absolute utility and have reasonable access to 5.56 ammo, the 5.56 chamber seems the obvious choice. That’s not me. Don’t have access to 5.56 and will be using my gun for recreational shooting. If I ever want to compete, I will most certainly buy another weapon. On the other hand, the economical choice would be to get the .223 chamber as it will give you (arguably) the most accurate setup for the price. If you just can’t make up your mind, go with the Wylde (or should you buy the Wylde in all cases?). Right now, I’m inclined to go with a .223 chamber as that is likely the only type of ammo I will ever shoot out of it. I’m a hobbyist, not a purist so it isn’t worth the time and money to search out the 5.56 rounds. If someone could tell me why I would want to use the 5.56 round or why the Wylde chamber is the superior option, I’m open to suggestion. Thanks again guys, great discussion. You bring up some good points. However one you may have missed is that one of the main reasons why some(most?) choose a 5.56 chamber is that 5.56 ammo(M/XM193) is cheaper to shoot than almost any 223 ammo you can buy. So for practice, plinking, SHTF, etc 5.56 is probably the better round to use thus requiring the 5.56 chamber(or Wylde)! |
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New member here, looking to buy my first AR so chambering is a fair part of that decision. I'm no techie on all of this but grew up hunting, so (thankfully) I am able to follow the discussion. Here's what I have been able to glean from the conversation. 5.56 will shoot both rounds (.223 and 5.56). A .223 chamber can't handle (or shouldn't be subjected to) the pressure of the larger 5.56 casing. I see two lines of thinking in this discussion. 1. Utility - Get the 5.56 chamber because then you are able to shoot both rounds. You are able to shoot the more powerful 5.56 round with higher pressures (and I assume muzzle velocity). This would give you more knockdown power (though the type of bullet will arguable have more impact on that issue). Would this also be an argument for a more accurate setup (using a 5.56 round in a 5.56 gun)? 2. Accuracy - It occurs to me that you would want the chamber of your gun to match (as close as possible) the type of cartridge you are using. Given the very limited commercial availability of 5.56 ammo, why would someone want a 5.56 weapon (unless they were actually planning on shooting 5.56 ammo)? This discussion centers around the topic of chamber and ammunition. The real question is what impact is that going to have downrange? Now you can certainly make the argument that a .223 round in a 5.56 chamber will not be as accurate or powerful as a .223 round in a .223 chamber. It makes sense. The question is, how much of a difference will it make? My sneaking suspicion is that all but the above average marksman would even be able to tell the difference. I’m not as concerned about muzzle velocity or power, as I am about accuracy. I realize the concepts are somewhat intertwined, but this is a detailed enough discussion to separate them out. The average user (me) probably has enough glitches in their accuracy (whether through low end components or poor shooting habits), that these slight variations would not ever be noticed. All I'm getting at is unless you are shooting competitively at 400+ yds, then these chambering vs. ammunition arguments probably don't play a very significant role. For most people, this is an academic debate. Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful you guys are having it as it furthers my understanding of the chambering options available in the AR line. To throw a third component into the fray, I've seen several references to the Wylde .223 chamber. This seems to be a compromise between the two. It can handle the pressure of either round, while providing a better fit for the more commonly used .223 round. So if you want absolute utility and have reasonable access to 5.56 ammo, the 5.56 chamber seems the obvious choice. That’s not me. Don’t have access to 5.56 and will be using my gun for recreational shooting. If I ever want to compete, I will most certainly buy another weapon. On the other hand, the economical choice would be to get the .223 chamber as it will give you (arguably) the most accurate setup for the price. If you just can’t make up your mind, go with the Wylde (or should you buy the Wylde in all cases?). Right now, I’m inclined to go with a .223 chamber as that is likely the only type of ammo I will ever shoot out of it. I’m a hobbyist, not a purist so it isn’t worth the time and money to search out the 5.56 rounds. If someone could tell me why I would want to use the 5.56 round or why the Wylde chamber is the superior option, I’m open to suggestion. Thanks again guys, great discussion. You bring up some good points. However one you may have missed is that one of the main reasons why some(most?) choose a 5.56 chamber is that 5.56 ammo(M/XM193) is cheaper to shoot than almost any 223 ammo you can buy. So for practice, plinking, SHTF, etc 5.56 is probably the better round to use thus requiring the 5.56 chamber(or Wylde)! Maybe you've got a supplier that I'm unaware of but my figures put .223Rem ammo cheaper than XM193. At MidwayUSA: Federal American Eagle XM193 500rds @ $0.43998 per rnd and 20 @ $0.4945 per rnd. prvi partizan .223Rem 55gr FMJ 20rnds @ $0.4745 per rnd. Brown Bear .223Rem 62 or 55 gr. FMJ 20 rnds @ $0.3495 per rnd. Fiocchi .223Rem 55gr FMJ 50 rnds @ $0.4138 per rnd. At Wideners: XM193 5.56 400 rnds @ $0.355 per rnd. Wolf .223Rem 55 gr. FMJ 20 rnds @ $0.2345 per rnd or 1,000 rnds @ $0.21 per rnd. Wolf .223Rem M/C 55 gr. FMJ 20 rnds. @ $0.2175 per rnd or 1,000 rnds @ .$0.1995 per rnd. At Brassmanbrass.com: Lake City M855 62 gr. 09 stuff would've been 1,000 rnds @ $0.40 per rnd had they any in stock. At Cheaper Than Dirt: Federal XM193 5.56 20 rnds. @ $0.5975 Lake City XM193 5.56 30 rnds @ $0.4063 Brown Bear .223Rem 55 gr. FMJ 20 rnds @ $0.2395 per rnd. Brown Bear .223Rem 62 gr. FMJ 20 rnds @ $0.2245 per rnd. Tula .223Rem 55 gr. FMJ 20 rnds @ $0.2145 per rnd. And I reload, so .223Rem is even cheaper. |
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As Maineyack indicates, the prices I was able to find for .223 and 5.56 ammo is what lies behind my decision to go with the .223 chambering option. Is there a shortage (and corresponding increase in prices) for 5.56 ammo due to the conflict in the middle east? You're basing all this on the presumption that a .223 chamber, being tighter, will be more accurate than a 5.56 chamber. I think this is a faulty premise. In my experience, there's no discernable difference in accuracy. Many guns used in highpower competition have Wylde chambers, which are "looser" than .223 and can shoot 5.56, and they're built for accuracy. You can shoot the cheaper .223 ammo if you chose, even wih a 5.56 chamber, and I almost guarantee that you won't see any difference in accuracy. You'd have the option, though, to shoot 5.56; if you go with a .223 chamber, that's what you're stuck with. If you're that worried about it, just get something with a Wylde chamber and call it a day. Personally, I won't own a .223 chamber, and accuracy is always of primary importance to me. |
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Here's a reamer/chamber comparison pic I drew-up, since all the ones I've seen before are drawn with tiny font size and tiny lines and arrows. All data pulled from PTG prints. The lengths of the (L)leads and (T)throats are drawn to-scale from their start to end points. .223 Remington vs 5.56 NATO vs .223 Wylde chambers: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p203/CHRIS65-IL/223-vs-NATO-vs-WYLDE-chambers.jpg Interesting. The body of the Wylde chamber is even "sluttier" than the 5.56mm NATO chamber. Molon, thanks for the info, so I'm thinking of building (or have built) a Remmy 700 in 5.56, so I can run my 556 pressure loads in it, would I be better off going Wylde or 556 chamber? |
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So why hasn't someone tested 5.56 using the SAAMI transducer or copper crusher method?  Look above.
I have read the "above" and I understand that the Mil spec calls for a different testing method for 5.56. My point is this: Since the civilian market has been flooded with rifles chambered for 5.56 why not test 5.56 using civilian methods so we can have some SAAMI approved numbers to work with?
Edit to add: In other words, create a SAAMI spec for 5.56. Don't argue with Molon, just do as the Tier Snobs order you to do: Buy only from the, lets have some dramatic reverance music in the back ground, "CHART." Only a barrel in 1/7 twist, chrome lined, and from ONLY an approved vendor/maker such as BCM, Colt, or Noveske will do. Don't argue with Molon, if you shoot one single round of NATO spec ammo in any barrel not marked 5.56NATO not only will you die a most horrible death but your entire family and 100 future generations of your family will parish horribly!!!!!!! If you have any doubts about your barrel's makings post a clear pic of it here so that Molon can give you the O.K. before shooting. If your barrel has no markings at all then you should run for your *#@!% life after melting it down. effing newbies will be the down fall of this site, dont you need to go clean your room or are you locked in your room????? |
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Maineyack, I'm a regular guy with an irregular fascination with this information. I appreciate fact based threads. Factual information to contradict the info here would be great. Your contribution to this thread, at least to my regular guy eye, has not provided this. The only fact that I can recall is that a whole lot of 5.56 has been fired from .223 chambers without issue. While I can appreciate this fact, it does not change the numbers which have been posted. To put it another way, people drink and drive and get away with it all the time. Probably even more people text and drive and get away with it all the time. None of this means that it is a safe practice which can be endorsed.
Like I said, I enjoy it when a group of people can discuss facts and develop ideas based on the results. Please begin your next post in this thread (and others for that matter) accordingly or you may find yourself reading without the ability to post. Molon eluded to AR15.com's more lenient moderation, and that's certainly true. But there is a limit. Thank you in advance for your future cooperation. 
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As Maineyack indicates, the prices I was able to find for .223 and 5.56 ammo is what lies behind my decision to go with the .223 chambering option. Is there a shortage (and corresponding increase in prices) for 5.56 ammo due to the conflict in the middle east? You're basing all this on the presumption that a .223 chamber, being tighter, will be more accurate than a 5.56 chamber. I think this is a faulty premise. In my experience, there's no discernable difference in accuracy. Many guns used in highpower competition have Wylde chambers, which are "looser" than .223 and can shoot 5.56, and they're built for accuracy. You can shoot the cheaper .223 ammo if you chose, even wih a 5.56 chamber, and I almost guarantee that you won't see any difference in accuracy. You'd have the option, though, to shoot 5.56; if you go with a .223 chamber, that's what you're stuck with. If you're that worried about it, just get something with a Wylde chamber and call it a day. Personally, I won't own a .223 chamber, and accuracy is always of primary importance to me. I hope that's not how my post came across. I'm not aware of any significant differences in accuracy from .223 to 5.56. I would think there were far more significant variables to be found in the source of the ammo, type of barrel, optics...etc. My decision to go with .223 is based on two things. One, the .223 ammo seems to be much more available than 5.56 and cheaper at that. Two, I don't have any special need (and am not aware of any) to seek out the 5.56 ammo. Accordingly, I want my rifle to match the ammo I will be using. My question is this, why would I use 5.56 ammo (thus justifying the 5.56 rifle)? I checked the prices on ammo and found the .223 stuff to be 30-50% cheaper than the 5.56. Not to mention, most places have about 10 times more varieties of .223 ammo. Even sites that listed 5.56 ammo, often had "Out of Stock" shown. As I mentioned, I'm new to the AR world so maybe this availability is a recent trend. The comment was made that many AR users choose 5.56 because it is cheaper, and that just doesn't seem accurate to me. Maybe there is a source for 5.56 ammo that I'm not aware of. You yourself made the comment that "You can shoot the cheaper .223 ammo if you chose, even wih a 5.56 chamber, and I almost guarantee that you won't see any difference in accuracy." So if the cheaper ammo is just as accurate, why would you chamber in 5.56? Let me ask these two questions of you: 1. Why did you choose the chamber that you have (Wylde or 5.56)? 2. How often do you shoot 5.56 ammo? |
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I checked the prices on ammo and found the .223 stuff to be 30-50% cheaper than the 5.56. Not to mention, most places have about 10 times more varieties of .223 ammo. Even sites that listed 5.56 ammo, often had "Out of Stock" shown. As I mentioned, I'm new to the AR world so maybe this availability is a recent trend. The comment was made that many AR users choose 5.56 because it is cheaper, and that just doesn't seem accurate to me. Maybe there is a source for 5.56 ammo that I'm not aware of. You yourself made the comment that "You can shoot the cheaper .223 ammo if you chose, even wih a 5.56 chamber, and I almost guarantee that you won't see any difference in accuracy." So if the cheaper ammo is just as accurate, why would you chamber in 5.56? Let me ask these two questions of you: 1. Why did you choose the chamber that you have (Wylde or 5.56)? 2. How often do you shoot 5.56 ammo? A better question would be "If a chamber is available that allows you to shoot a wider variety of ammo with no appreciable difference in accuracy, why would you want to limit yourself?" I have 4 AR's. Two (White Oak Armament upper and LaRue upper) have Wylde chambers. I didn't seek them out for that, that's just how they came. The White Oak upper was for service rifle competition, and I won the LaRue upper. They're both tack drivers and they both have stainless barrels. The other two have 5.56 chambers; a Colt SP1 Carbine and a DPMS upper, and while neither of those are accuracy-built rigs, they both shoot every bit as well as they're supposed to if I feed them decent ammo. I shoot 5.56 all the time, since I'm sitting on a lot of XM193. You're all hung up on which is cheaper and all that, and it just doesn't matter. You don't know what's going to be coming down the pike as far as surplus in the future. If a bunch of 5.56 surplus comes in and it's cheaper than .223, then what? If you get a 5.56 chamber and never do anything but shoot cheap .223 through it, you're fine. If you get a .223 chamber and then want to shoot 5.56 for whatever reason, be it cost or performance or whatever, then you're stuck. You don't have to have a "special need" for 5.56 ammo. But it IS out there, and there may come a day when you WANT to shoot it. Why limit yourself? Of course, there's also the fact that, from what I've seen, the majority of manufacturers these days seem to be going with 5.56 or Wylde chambers and NOT .223. You may run into a situation where it's just a lot easier to find a 5.56/Wylde chamber than a .223. |
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As for the problems you'll encounter using 5.56 in a .223 chamber, it comes down to luck. If you shoot enough 5.56 in .223, you'll pop a certain number of primers out of your cases. You may never have more of a problem. ("I've shot cartons of 5.56 through my .223-chambered AR, and I've never had a problem.")
But Ned and I see a lot of ammo go downrange every year. And we see regular occurrences of popped primers wedging in places they ought not to, and creating problems. Last year we saw the infamous "burst fire" incident, where an LEO had a popped primer wedge under his trigger, and kick off a burst when he went to push the selector to Safe. Just last month I personally saw a varmint-built AR with a .223 chamber wedge partially open when fed 5.56 ammo. The popped primer jammed the carrier key, and that was that. If a rifle is popping primers, it is telling you something, and that something is not "everything is OK." |
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