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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - (Official) Hornady Frontier - Kabooms, Issues, Info, and Data Thread (List Updated 10/26) (Page 3 of 4)
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Quoted: I do reload and with ball powder you can absolutely overcharge a 5.56x45 case. Quoted:
I handload but not for 5.56. Not up with all the powders that would be used with it. As a refresher, here's the data from a pull & weigh that Buffman did for his chrono video year & a half ago; without having to shoot them it would be interesting if someone had a scale & weighed some of the loaded rounds. Don't know the powder type; 27.3gr of "something" but it shot real well back then (note the Lot #). https://i.imgur.com/5Rt3qDn.jpg I have in a handful of instances over the years seen where insufficient tension on the case neck of a round further down in a magazine will cause it to seat further, compressing the powder load, and being "hotter" when it comes time for it to be shot. Never seen it do damage like this but those were starting well below the top of the pressure curve and it's more of a "whoa!" event when you touch it off. As you say, "straws." :) Thank you both. |
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Quoted:
I handload but not for 5.56. Not up with all the powders that would be used with it. As a refresher, here's the data from a pull & weigh that Buffman did for his chrono video year & a half ago; without having to shoot them it would be interesting if someone had a scale & weighed some of the loaded rounds. Don't know the powder type; 27.3gr of "something" but it shot real well back then (note the Lot #). https://i.imgur.com/5Rt3qDn.jpg I have in a handful of instances over the years seen where insufficient tension on the case neck of a round further down in a magazine will cause it to seat further, compressing the powder load, and being "hotter" when it comes time for it to be shot. Never seen it do damage like this but those were starting well below the top of the pressure curve and it's more of a "whoa!" event when you touch it off. As you say, "straws." :) |
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Quoted: Looks like CFE223. There are a couple threads in the Reloading area I found with guys using that powder and going successfully well over the above listed charge, with 52-55gr bullets. Things that make you say 'hmmm'... |
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Quoted:
Thanks. Not familiar with that one but was an education. There are a couple threads in the Reloading area I found with guys using that powder and going successfully well over the above listed charge, with 52-55gr bullets. Things that make you say 'hmmm'... ETA Hornady' 10th edition shows 27.5gr for CFE in a 5.56 NATO chamber and 27.4 in a 223 chamber. If it is CFE it is close to max. I load soft, my load is 26.5 with the same powder and bullet. |
| Yeah, thanks. I saw that 27.5 mentioned in the Hodgdon online data as well. And some load combinations perform well up close to the max, others not (in terms of accuracy). This Frontier stuff (some of it anyway) has something weird goin' on though. Sporadically kB enough guns that user confidence in the ammo supply erodes. I almost wish I had a few boxes from one of the suspect lots, not to shoot, but to weigh. I have a grandson that likes repetitive tasks and understands numbers, etc. He'd be delighted to sit and weigh cartridges and sing out if something jumps away from that area of the 176.6gr weight that Buffman had. |
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Quoted:
Yeah, thanks. I saw that 27.5 mentioned in the Hodgdon online data as well. And some load combinations perform well up close to the max, others not (in terms of accuracy). This Frontier stuff (some of it anyway) has something weird goin' on though. Sporadically kB enough guns that user confidence in the ammo supply erodes. I almost wish I had a few boxes from one of the suspect lots, not to shoot, but to weigh. I have a grandson that likes repetitive tasks and understands numbers, etc. He'd be delighted to sit and weigh cartridges and sing out if something jumps away from that area of the 176.6gr weight that Buffman had. It's just speculation on my part but is, IMO, the most likely senerio. Since this stuff is loaded pretty much to the max, if their power dispensers started throwing slightly heavier powder charges, that's all it would take to create dangerous overpressure. It can happen with any and has happened with other ammunition; loaded hot. There is always an increased risk when you want ammunition that's loaded hot. There is no free ride. |
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IMO, while it could be a charge weight issue... I also believe it could be a burn rate issue.
As far as I know... LC buys and uses propellant that is not for sale commercially.. they get a huge pile of it ( for lack of a better term ), and test it for the burn rate in a specific ammo ( 5.56 ), then calculate the charge weight since there can be variable burn rates within the various powder production lots as supplied by the "bulk" propellant manufacturer. Rarely can Mil-Spec powder be made repeatably the "exact" same... and that is why the Bulk powder used by LC is constantly tested. For that specific burn rate, resulting in the charge weight used. The testing is very sophisticated and complicated , and is specific to that production "Lot" of powder and round being loaded for... ( and will yield different pressure and burn characteristics in in different calibers ) Any of us that reload, have seen the various pulldown LC 5.56 powders for sale... the ones labeled with VERY vague reloading data ( pretty much all of them )... "Burn rate similiar to so and so powder" ...but never with specific data for that exact powder. Another consideration to me is, did a "lot" ( pile of powder ) get mislabeled ? ... or not "blended" correctly ? Or given the various powder additives flash suppressing, hotter burning for Tracers ... IE no flash retardant additives , or Non-Copper fouling accidentally get used ? The reason for the Lot Numbers on the boxes, is so you can track all the specific components used, brass production lots, primer production lots, powder production lots and bullet production lots... all those should have been tested to be within "Mil-Spec LC guidelines. Then add the actual reloading machinery adjustments seating , neck tension, crimp.... etc.. "If" we could see the ammo "Lot" specifics... we "might" be able to nail down the reason for the KaBooms. Commercially sold powder MUST be more consistent, since you are using it with common published data... and even that data varies quite bit. ( For various test barrels ) So, I guess what I am saying is.... It clearly is happening, I will avoid the ammo in question because of the data presented here... And Hornady should be much more proactive in helping us. After all... it could ultimately, truly be LC's fault.. but Hornady is distributing the ammo concerned. Over the decades, we all have seen various "M193" ammos be to hot. IMI ( including Fed. Independence made by IMI ) , This Hornady, Some lots of late '90's Winc. and many more. And those same ones had the same various chambers, throats and leades... so , to me... it all leads back to the part we don't know... the "Pile" of Mil-Spec powder used. |
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Good thread: nice work. I was curious if all the kabooms were experienced in semi-auto rifles. Were any kabooms in bolt actions or break-opens? Any blown primers or other pressure signs in surviving cases shot in bolts? It sure sounds like it is almost certainly ammo-related with possible increased risk given fairly high published velocity. I know that most of this ammo would be shot in semi's, so odds are better that more problems would be reported in semis than bolts. But maybe there would be clues if more of gun and fired case survived in slightly-more-robust and contained bolt actions. I have bolt guns in 223 and 556 but can't recall shooting any of my small amount of Frontier ammo in any of these (I reload for the plinking I do). |
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Quoted:
Good thread: nice work. I was curious if all the kabooms were experienced in semi-auto rifles. Were any kabooms in bolt actions or break-opens? Any blown primers or other pressure signs in surviving cases shot in bolts? It sure sounds like it is almost certainly ammo-related with possible increased risk given fairly high published velocity. I know that most of this ammo would be shot in semi's, so odds are better that more problems would be reported in semis than bolts. But maybe there would be clues if more of gun and fired case survived in slightly-more-robust and contained bolt actions. I have bolt guns in 223 and 556 but can't recall shooting any of my small amount of Frontier ammo in any of these (I reload for the plinking I do). |
| Long time lurker. Took interest with the Hornady ammo thread, as that's what I have in my HD weapon. I've fired about a hundred or so rounds of the 62 grain SP through a stock DPMS I bought in 2005-2006, don't remember exactly. Just fired 3 more just to see, didn't see any overpreesure signs or anything unusual. Can post pictures if anyone is interested. |
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Quoted:
It appears like the issues are limited to some older lots of the 55 grain. Quoted:
Quoted:
I have shot over a thousand rounds of the 75g frontier. My AR LOVES it. Very accurate with no issues. 2hut8 |
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Quoted: Some of the lots have not been identified so this "limited to older lots" is pure speculation. Yes, he said "appears" but it important to note that nothing has been proven so take "appears" with a grain of salt. It also "appears" that this issue is limited to 55 grain bullets. So again, take this information with a grain of salt. Hornady has not taken responsibility and in some case blamed the rifle for firing "out of battery" which isn't possible on an AR. I expect better from an ammo manufacturer. This is all of the more reason that I will avoid this ammo regardless of the age of the lot. 2hut8 That being said, we have the facts that ALL of the reported Kaboom lot numbers are all the same. SMQ18C8 That and, IMO, if this were an ongoing problem, the reports of kabooms would be FAR more frequent and there would be more recent ( and different) lot numbers reported. All that being said, Hornady not taking responsibility for these bad lots is BULLSHIT. The reasons why they aren't taking responsibility and placing the sole blame on the firearms is; it's an admition of liability and they don't want to eat the cost of a recall and or damages to peoples property. Unfortunately, they aren't the first or will be the last manufaturer who will not take responsibility for a bad and or defective product.(without being forced to) |
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Quoted: Some of the lots have not been identified so this "limited to older lots" is pure speculation. Yes, he said "appears" but it important to note that nothing has been proven so take "appears" with a grain of salt. It also "appears" that this issue is limited to 55 grain bullets. So again, take this information with a grain of salt. Hornady has not taken responsibility and in some case blamed the rifle for firing "out of battery" which isn't possible on an AR. I expect better from an ammo manufacturer. This is all of the more reason that I will avoid this ammo regardless of the age of the lot. 2hut8 |
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Quoted:
Yeah, if anything your guessolgy is consistent. I won't post in it anymore. Please don't ruin it for the OP and others. |
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Quoted: Whatever you say. I agree with you. Hornady Frontier Sucks. Whatever... Just please don't get this thread locked; like that last several you did. I won't post in it anymore. Please don't ruin it for the OP and others. What does interest me is what/if any new facts data are posted. I'd like to NOT see another thread locked due to constant interjection of guessing/opinion and arguing against facts. This thread has the data fairly streamlined with easy access, it'd be nice if anybody with enough sense to research before buying could view it. FWIW, a guy at my shop showed up Friday excitedly sharing his story about his 1200 rd purchase of Frontier 55 and how "everybody says it's the greatest". I shared links to the threads here. I'm trying to get lot #s. Unfortunately, he's good for shooting about 150 rds/year on average. Dude is bummed out. |
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Quoted: It appears like the issues are limited to some older lots of the 55 grain. In addition to an actual documented KB with their 62 grain BTHP, there have been numerous instances of overpressure signs with a variety of different projectile weights in the Frontier line. Not to mention that saying “some older lots” seems to downplay the extent of the issues. As far as we know, no two KBs, or other instances of overpressure, can be traced back to the same lot number. That’s what really makes this saga concerning. If it were all from one or two lots, it’d be a different story. And many of us would be less inclined to worry about shooting our Frontier ammo. But, in reality, we have no idea just how far the issues with this ammo spans. |
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Quoted:
I'm disappointed in Hornady. I won't buy any new Hornady ammo once mine is used up. Has any of this KB shit happened with their 75 grain Steel Match ammo??? I just got a bit of that and my Recce loves it... If I had the steel match ammo on hand, I’d personally have little concern in shooting it. But, like you, I don’t plan to buy any more Hornady ammo. |
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Quoted:
I haven’t heard anything about the 75 grain steel match. Everything I’ve seen and documented in the OP has been specific to the Frontier line. If I had the steel match ammo on hand, I’d personally have little concern in shooting it. But, like you, I don’t plan to buy any more Hornady ammo. Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm disappointed in Hornady. I won't buy any new Hornady ammo once mine is used up. Has any of this KB shit happened with their 75 grain Steel Match ammo??? I just got a bit of that and my Recce loves it... If I had the steel match ammo on hand, I’d personally have little concern in shooting it. But, like you, I don’t plan to buy any more Hornady ammo. |
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Quoted:
I haven’t heard anything about the 75 grain steel match. Everything I’ve seen and documented in the OP has been specific to the Frontier line. If I had the steel match ammo on hand, I’d personally have little concern in shooting it. But, like you, I don’t plan to buy any more Hornady ammo. Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm disappointed in Hornady. I won't buy any new Hornady ammo once mine is used up. Has any of this KB shit happened with their 75 grain Steel Match ammo??? I just got a bit of that and my Recce loves it... If I had the steel match ammo on hand, I’d personally have little concern in shooting it. But, like you, I don’t plan to buy any more Hornady ammo. ETA-Just to clarify, I get 2580 from an 18" bbl. I get sub MOA accuracy and the bullets frag in 20% gel from a 10.5" bbl. It's excellent ammo for the $ and I'm bummed that they stopped making it. |
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Quoted:
Interested in results in the event that you get an opportunity. I chronographed one twenty round box selected at random from what remains of the aforementioned case. My lot is SMQ19B837-011. ETA: .223 55gr spire points from a 10.5" Faxon 1/8 twist barrel. Results were as follows: 2564 2499 2547 2547 2498 2512 2552 2517 2472 2591 2547 2535 2482 2524 2548 2623 2586 2502 2502 2515 ETA: Measured in FPS Average velocity of 2533 Standard Devation of 37.5 ETA: whatever you fucking do don't copy and paste from excel. Fucking nightmare of formatting weirdness. |
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Quoted: @Tigwelder1971 I chronographed one twenty round box selected at random from what remains of the aforementioned case. My lot is SMQ19B837-011. ETA: .223 55gr spire points from a 10.5" Faxon 1/8 twist barrel. Results were as follows: 2564 2499 2547 2547 2498 2512 2552 2517 2472 2591 2547 2535 2482 2524 2548 2623 2586 2502 2502 2515 ETA: Measured in FPS Average velocity of 2533 Standard Devation of 37.5 ETA: whatever you fucking do don't copy and paste from excel. Fucking nightmare of formatting weirdness. Should perform well in a HD situation in that configuration. |
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Quoted:
Thanks man. Doesn't appear abnormal in the least. +/- 40 fps Should perform well in a HD situation in that configuration. |
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Quoted: @Tigwelder1971 I chronographed one twenty round box selected at random from what remains of the aforementioned case. My lot is SMQ19B837-011. ETA: .223 55gr spire points from a 10.5" Faxon 1/8 twist barrel. Results were as follows: Looking back at the first page of this thread and the table on it in the OP, perhaps another lesson going forward is that if folks are going to post a review rant at the retailer's website, for the love of all that is holy and in the name of really well-made biscuits w/sausage gravy. INCLUDE THE LOT NUMBER. So many more points that could've been there. |
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Quoted: Approximately 15-20 feet. I'm trying to talk a workmate into giving up 100 rds of his Frontier just to do some dicking around with (1 random round from 50 boxes). Another guy at my shop has a chrony and offered to run some for "curiosity". IF I can pull it off, I will put something here. Right now he is too scared to shoot it in his guns and is positive that Hornady will replace it with something else "if" anything goes wrong. 
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Quoted:
Awesome . Thanks again for the update on a sampling of ammo. I'm trying to talk a workmate into giving up 100 rds of his Frontier just to do some dicking around with (1 random round from 50 boxes). Another guy at my shop has a chrony and offered to run some for "curiosity". IF I can pull it off, I will put something here. Right now he is too scared to shoot it in his guns and is positive that Hornady will replace it with something else "if" anything goes wrong. |
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Quoted: Is it from a suspect lot number? If I can make any headway or at least get info, I'll pass it on here. Edited: because I can spell real good. |
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Quoted:
I cannot say...I have not seen/heard any info back from him. I harassed him Wednesday about it again. Supposedly he is in contact with Hornady. I linked him the threads here when I found out that he FO'd on 1200 rds locally, he was not too enthusiastic. If I can make any headway or at least get info, I'll pass it on here. Edited: because I can spell real good. |
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Quoted:
I cannot say...I have not seen/heard any info back from him. I harassed him Wednesday about it again. Supposedly he is in contact with Hornady. I linked him the threads here when I found out that he FO'd on 1200 rds locally, he was not too enthusiastic. If I can make any headway or at least get info, I'll pass it on here. Edited: because I can spell real good. Any luck? |
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Quoted: @tigwelder1971 Any luck? Negative man. Guy actually tuned me out entirely, refuses to discuss it with me any more. According to another guy in his department, Hornady assured him that there is nothing to be concerned with, and that reported ammo issues have actually been firearm related rather than the fault of ammo. Supposedly, he is content with that response. I do not know if he has even fired any. |
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Quoted:
@Texsylvanian Negative man. Guy actually tuned me out entirely, refuses to discuss it with me any more. According to another guy in his department, Hornady assured him that there is nothing to be concerned with, and that reported ammo issues have actually been firearm related rather than the fault of ammo. Supposedly, he is content with that response. I do not know if he has even fired any. Riiiiiiiight, all of a sudden a bunch of people randomly had kabooms all around the same timeframe and it’s just a vicious coincidence that they were all with your ammo. I have enjoyed a lot of Hornady products but it’s a shame to see that they can’t even do something as basic as admitting they made a mistake. |
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Quoted: @Tigwelder1971 Riiiiiiiight, all of a sudden a bunch of people randomly had kabooms all around the same timeframe and it’s just a vicious coincidence that they were all with your ammo. I have enjoyed a lot of Hornady products but it’s a shame to see that they can’t even do something as basic as admitting they made a mistake. |
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Just seeing this. Was thinking of buying some Frontier 5.56 75g. Reminded me of something from years back: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/55-grain-bullets-and-1-7-twist-An-Accuracy-test/118-436376/#i3988166 |
| Thanks for the info. I was looking at this ammo as a cheaper alternative fall back ammo to for my current 62gr Gold Dots for duty but I will hold off a bit. Unfortunately here I must provide my own duty ammo and no one sells any bullets locally that is worth salt or not over priced by 50%. Will still carry Gold Dots as my first 4 mags but just wanted something cheaper to carry that was decent that I can toss to somone else or was cheaper to stack deep for a prolonged incident. |
| I went ahead and shot one box of 20 rounds. The lot number was SMQ18C847-001. Didn't have any issues. I grabbed a few of the spent casings and I didn't see any signs of over pressure. Everything looked and felt normal. I made sure to be very careful about not being out of battery. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - (Official) Hornady Frontier - Kabooms, Issues, Info, and Data Thread (List Updated 10/26) (Page 3 of 4)
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