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Posted: 6/15/2023 12:44:11 PM EDT
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Are there any plans to build JAKL uppers with a more appropriate twist rate for modern subsonic ammunition at some point? For instance, with Mos-Tek 1:3 or 1:5 twist barrels? If you've kept up with development of fast twist barrels and the new generation of subsonic projectiles from companies like Maker, for cartridges like .300 BLK, 8.6 Blackout, and .338 Razorback, then you already understand why people would want this. 8 twist is....technically adequate. Far from ideal. A 5 twist 6.5" upper would be amazing. This platform is so close to being really ideal for a dedicated short suppressed-always gun, but not in the currently offered configurations. If there are no plans to do something like this, how hard is it to put a new barrel in one of these? |
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1:8 is still the best all around twist rate for supers and subs, and the JAKL should retain that versatility. I'm not sure if you were baiting with your thread title, but there is no "better" or superior twist rate... it's all just simple physics. There's also nothing "new generation," because there are not actually "generations" progressing towards what are simply longer projectiles. The original hyper-twist barrels were designed for a super niche application- never to be shot more than perhaps three arms lengths distance-to-target, and fed only a diet of long, heavy monos on the taxpayer dime. The exotic ammunition you mentioned is never going to catch on big as a consumer trend, and there definitely won't be many off the shelf weapons locked in to it's unique specs. https://www.stillwoodammo.com/product/300-blk-200-gr-rex-subsonic/ I mean this as no insult, but it's a novelty item... and a pricey one at that. |
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We will be sticking with the 1/8 twist barrels. It is not advised to swap barrels as there is a lot of things that have to be done precisely when disassembling/assembling. Thank you, Josiah |
Palmetto State Armory
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Originally Posted By PalmettoStateArmory: We will be sticking with the 1/8 twist barrels. It is not advised to swap barrels as there is a lot of things that have to be done precisely when disassembling/assembling. Thank you, Josiah Will you be releasing any versions with shorter barrels (6.5" or so)? |
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Originally Posted By NewWind: Will you be releasing any versions with shorter barrels (6.5" or so)? Optimal barrel length for .300 BLK is 8-10", and the cartridge was originally designed around an 8.2" barrel. Many suppressors are not spec'd to go that low on .300 BLK... the Silencerco Omega 300 won't... because they are containing burning powder rather than just expanding gasses at that length. (Though many newer models say "no minimum barrel length," the laws of reality still apply.) Additionally, you won't feel much benefit for moving to a suboptimal configuration, because the < 2" ends up being the difference between 14" and 15" chamber to endcap. |
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Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101: 1:8 is still the best all around twist rate for supers and subs, and the JAKL should retain that versatility. I'm not sure if you were baiting with your thread title, but there is no "better" or superior twist rate... it's all just simple physics. There's also nothing "new generation," because there are not actually "generations" progressing towards what are simply longer projectiles. The original hyper-twist barrels were designed for a super niche application- never to be shot more than perhaps three arms lengths distance-to-target, and fed only a diet of long, heavy monos on the taxpayer dime. The exotic ammunition you mentioned is never going to catch on big as a consumer trend, and there definitely won't be many off the shelf weapons locked in to it's unique specs. https://www.stillwoodammo.com/product/300-blk-200-gr-rex-subsonic/ I mean this as no insult, but it's a novelty item... and a pricey one at that. It kinda seems like you haven't kept up on the recent developments, so I don't blame you for still holding this opinion. The fast twist barrels shoot supers just as well as the older slow twist barrels, but the effects on target with subsonic bullets designed to take advantage of the faster twist rate are magnificent. I mean dramatically more damage on the target. Not even close. It's not a niche, it's a massive upgrade in flexibility and capability with no downsides since supers and older designs of subsonic bullets all still shoot just as well. There is a better twist rate, and it is indeed simple physics. A higher RPM as the bullet petals travel through the target produces a greater wounding area. Leaving performance on the table by refusing to switch twist rates seems like a questionable decision. This particular video features 8.6 Blackout, but similar results in testing have been found with the .300 BLK fast twist barrels as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlbjdobIWYU |
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Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101: 1:8 is still the best all around twist rate for supers and subs, and the JAKL should retain that versatility. I'm not sure if you were baiting with your thread title, but there is no "better" or superior twist rate... it's all just simple physics. There's also nothing "new generation," because there are not actually "generations" progressing towards what are simply longer projectiles. The original hyper-twist barrels were designed for a super niche application- never to be shot more than perhaps three arms lengths distance-to-target, and fed only a diet of long, heavy monos on the taxpayer dime. The exotic ammunition you mentioned is never going to catch on big as a consumer trend, and there definitely won't be many off the shelf weapons locked in to it's unique specs. https://www.stillwoodammo.com/product/300-blk-200-gr-rex-subsonic/ I mean this as no insult, but it's a novelty item... and a pricey one at that. My 1 in 7 shoots the 200gr Maker Rex very well. |
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Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101: Optimal barrel length for .300 BLK is 8-10", and the cartridge was originally designed around an 8.2" barrel. Many suppressors are not spec'd to go that low on .300 BLK... the Silencerco Omega 300 won't... because they are containing burning powder rather than just expanding gasses at that length. (Though many newer models say "no minimum barrel length," the laws of reality still apply.) Additionally, you won't feel much benefit for moving to a suboptimal configuration, because the < 2" ends up being the difference between 14" and 15" chamber to endcap. 5.56 was originally designed for a 20" barrel, and we have 18" 16", 14.5", 13.9", 13.7", 12.5", 11.5", and 10.5" very commonly available. I will take the 8.5" if it's all they'll do, but if I could get shorter they'd get my dollars a bit faster for sure. |
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Originally Posted By Erebos: It kinda seems like you haven't kept up on the recent developments... The fast twist barrels shoot supers just as well as the older slow twist barrels... ...but the effects on target ... are magnificent... ... a massive upgrade in flexibility ...no downsides since supers and older designs ...better twist rate ...bullet petals ...Leaving performance on the table... This ... video features 8.6 Blackout... There are no "recent developments" in the physical laws of the planet that we inhabit. 1:8 is certainly not an "older slow twist barrel," and if you look at other weapons firing projectiles of similar length and caliber, you will find that 1:10 is usually optimal for the conventional (supersonic) loads they are designed to operate with. .300 BLK was designed to do a magic trick- no gas adjustment, same mags, great performance from supers on target and in the usual envelope, quiet + great performance from subs up close, similar size to an MP5, and absolute minimum unique parts to the AR platform. This necessitates a faster twist to adequately stabilize the longer projectiles in the subsonic loading. The sweet spot is 1:8- 1:9 - leaning towards supers 1:8 - best compromise 1:7 - leaning towards subs The 1:5 twist is for subs only- and long/ heavy ones at that. It is unsuited for supers. JAKL should not be robbed of that versatility, nor should we see members in the future starting threads asking which suppressors are rated to run on an inappropriately short barrelled JAKL... when you can barely feel the difference in length at the muzzle, even in the shoothouse. I'll also mention that you are bizarrely using English words out of context like "upgrade," "better," "older designs..." I'm sure if PSA said yes to 1:5 twists for indoor use with long monos, you would ask for a 5" barrel... and then if you got a 5" barrel, you would want a 3" barrel... and then you would ask for a 1:3... and maybe that's part of the mentality of the crowd that was willing to give it a shot- they think they are participating in the creation of something new. And at the three-arms-length distance the long heavy monos are suited for... at speed and under pressure... in volume... it doesn't matter if you are using a 1:5 or a 1:10 on the target. |
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Originally Posted By chevrofreak: My 1 in 7 shoots the 200gr Maker Rex very well. Originally Posted By chevrofreak: My 1 in 7 shoots the 200gr Maker Rex very well. I know, it's actually a moot point, and I was hoping someone with experience with that particular round would chime in... since the manufacturer says 1:8 is GTG: Recommended for barrels with a twist rate of 1:8 or faster – e.g., 1:8, 1:7, 1:6, 1:5. Slower twist rates (e.g., 1:9, 1:10) may under-stabilize the bullet and inhibit accuracy. |
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The actual testing shows virtually everything you've said is incorrect, both in gel and on live animals. Three and five twist barrels work fine for supers, and rotating the expanded bullet a greater number of times as it travels through the target does more damage. The industry is advancing, but not every company and customer cares about staying at the leading edge. Some are comfortable with sitting on their hands and making do with 20+ year old tech. I'd encourage those interested in learning to go watch the testing performed by the staff at Q and Mos-Tek and people like Nito Mortera of AP2020 Outdoors. The information is out there. Ignorance is a choice. |
| Again, there's no real downside. There's no .300 BLK ammo that a 5 twist barrel can't shoot well. I understand not everybody wants a 6.5" barrel, but it would be wild for them not to at least consider making the exact same 8.5" configuration they already offer, but starting with blanks with a different twist. It's a small change, and it'll get the whole gun-sphere talking about how PSA is one of the forward looking companies at the leading edge of the industry. At the very least, it'll get people talking. That's good marketing. |
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Originally Posted By Erebos: Again, there's no real downside. There's no .300 BLK ammo that a 5 twist barrel can't shoot well. I understand not everybody wants a 6.5" barrel, but it would be wild for them not to at least consider making the exact same 8.5" configuration they already offer, but starting with blanks with a different twist. It's a small change, and it'll get the whole gun-sphere talking about how PSA is one of the forward looking companies at the leading edge of the industry. At the very least, it'll get people talking. That's good marketing. I mean, PSA can barely keep individual SKUs in stock as it is. They innovate by being value at low cost, and everyone's already talking about them. |
Death to quislings.
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Originally Posted By Erebos: The industry is advancing, but not every company and customer cares about staying at the leading edge. You keep using bizarre language like this... it's... ODD. Do you view yourself as being "on the leading edge?" ...of what, exactly? That longer bullets require faster twist rates to adequately stabilize, and that "overstabilizing" your shorter bullets is less detrimental than failing to stabilize your longer bullets? Nothing I've said is incorrect in any way, and none of this is new. I just realized you sound like a booth babe at a tech expo repeating that "XYZ corp is on the bleeding edge of antenna design!" There is nothing new about spinning a projectile to stabilize it, or propagating waves from an antenna. It's not "20 year old tech" either (THAT was a revealing statement). It's very cool that you probably transcribed that post while talking to your apple watch or wearing a blue tooth device in your ear, but people that actually shoot know this- even better than people that shoot for the 'tube and their sponsors. It's also a thing that nobody wants to hear, but if you had your choice of optimizing twist for supers at distance or subs down the hallway to deliver the most consistent groups, you would choose to lean towards supers. Even slaying paper, folks shoot a whole lot more supers than subs in 300 BLK. |
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"Everything I don't like is odd/ bizarre" That's all a lot of words to say your mind is already made up and you're not open to learning/ trying anything new. You didn't have to come back 5 times to confirm that. It's wild how this is apparently so upsetting to you that you feel the need to go off like that and try to make it personal. Just go find another conversation about something you don't hate and let people try things. Somebody wants to try something different?! Get him! Lol |
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Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101: You keep using bizarre language like this... it's... ODD. Do you view yourself as being "on the leading edge?" ...of what, exactly? That longer bullets require faster twist rates to adequately stabilize, and that "overstabilizing" your shorter bullets is less detrimental than failing to stabilize your longer bullets? Nothing I've said is incorrect in any way, and none of this is new. I just realized you sound like a booth babe at a tech expo repeating that "XYZ corp is on the bleeding edge of antenna design!" There is nothing new about spinning a projectile to stabilize it, or propagating waves from an antenna. It's not "20 year old tech" either (THAT was a revealing statement). It's very cool that you probably transcribed that post while talking to your apple watch or wearing a blue tooth device in your ear, but people that actually shoot know this- even better than people that shoot for the 'tube and their sponsors. It's also a thing that nobody wants to hear, but if you had your choice of optimizing twist for supers at distance or subs down the hallway to deliver the most consistent groups, you would choose to lean towards supers. Even slaying paper, folks shoot a whole lot more supers than subs in 300 BLK. Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101: Originally Posted By Erebos: The industry is advancing, but not every company and customer cares about staying at the leading edge. You keep using bizarre language like this... it's... ODD. Do you view yourself as being "on the leading edge?" ...of what, exactly? That longer bullets require faster twist rates to adequately stabilize, and that "overstabilizing" your shorter bullets is less detrimental than failing to stabilize your longer bullets? Nothing I've said is incorrect in any way, and none of this is new. I just realized you sound like a booth babe at a tech expo repeating that "XYZ corp is on the bleeding edge of antenna design!" There is nothing new about spinning a projectile to stabilize it, or propagating waves from an antenna. It's not "20 year old tech" either (THAT was a revealing statement). It's very cool that you probably transcribed that post while talking to your apple watch or wearing a blue tooth device in your ear, but people that actually shoot know this- even better than people that shoot for the 'tube and their sponsors. It's also a thing that nobody wants to hear, but if you had your choice of optimizing twist for supers at distance or subs down the hallway to deliver the most consistent groups, you would choose to lean towards supers. Even slaying paper, folks shoot a whole lot more supers than subs in 300 BLK. Do they really have booth babes promoting antennae? I may have to get my Amateur license. |
Death to quislings.
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Originally Posted By Erebos: "Everything I don't like is odd/ bizarre" That's all a lot of words to say your mind is already made up and you're not open to learning/ trying anything new. You didn't have to come back 5 times to confirm that. It's wild how this is apparently so upsetting to you that you feel the need to go off like that and try to make it personal. Just go find another conversation about something you don't hate and let people try things. Somebody wants to try something different?! Get him! Lol Try new things? Where did you find a 1:5 JAKL to try?? You didn't, because it's undesirable for the reasons stated above. The same for taking two inches off the already-extremely-short barrel. It's undesirable for all but a super niche use case, and robs versatility from the weapon. It's inappropriate for the cartridge. I say to you- there is no reason to keep coming back and pretending not to understand twist rate and saying: get with the "leading edge" of twist rates. Probably in some alternate reality PSA really does make a 1:5 JAKL option and some weirdo is telling you to get with the "leading edge" and join him in calling for a 3-inch 1:3. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Do they really have booth babes promoting antennae? I may have to get my Amateur license. There was a (not antenna, but similar) company that went all out and brought actual Las Vegas showgirls with cleavage and strong perfume and everything. They all had a speech that they perfectly memorized (it was part of some service) and the business cards/ Points of Contact for questions in different fields to actual mini-bosses... who were also in the giant booth. Then the mini-bosses acted like big shots like "hot chicks broker my time," or "just email it and maybe I'll answer your peasant question..." They spent a huge chunk of VC $$$,$$$ their first year... and then nobody ever heard from them again. Walking things back on topic: I could picture Brittingham hiring the same service to tell guys "the future is now- 1:3 twist is HERE!" at SHOT 2035. The rest of us will still be shooting the same twist rate(s) that were proven to deliver maximum versatility since the Whisper days..... |
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Originally Posted By Kalashnikev101: The same for taking two inches off the already-extremely-short barrel. It's undesirable for all but a super niche use case, and robs versatility from the weapon. It's inappropriate for the cartridge. "anyone who has a use case other than mine is wrong" btw do you have a jakl? |
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Asked and answered by PSA. Conversation is devolving into COC6 territory, and this isn't GD, it's tech. |
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