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Posted: 7/22/2025 11:20:32 AM EDT
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Hi all - I post mostly in the Retro AR forum and have a ton of retro/vietnam era ARs and I think it would be cool to round out the collection with the “adversary’s” weapon. I don’t know a ton about AKs - certainly not as much as I know about early ARs - so please go easy. From what I have read, there were far more Chinese AKs used by the NVA and Viet Cong than any other. My understanding is that a lot of these (maybe the majority?) were milled guns, specifically Norincos? I know that milled Norinco Type 56s would thus be representative of something used in Vietnam. What about the milled Polytechs? What other AKs were found there? I’m mainly interested in those with milled receivers. Are there any other models to keep an eye out for that fit the bill? Thanks! |
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid"
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
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Hungarian rifles were apparently also present in numbers, with there being a lot of photos out there of the AMD-65 in Vietnam. I'm sure there were probably also Hungarian milled AK-55 rifles in the mix there. Milled and stamped Chinese Type 56 rifles are likely to be the most common overall. |
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Around what time would the stamped guns have started to be found in significant numbers? Id want to be looking for something representative of about 1967 and earlier (1967 being the standardization of the AR as the “M16A1,” and when I kind-of lose interest. So, i want something prior to that, as most of my ARs are about that old.) |
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid"
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
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Originally Posted By ArmaLite_Aficionado: Around what time would the stamped guns have started to be found in significant numbers? Id want to be looking for something representative of about 1967 and earlier (1967 being the standardization of the AR as the “M16A1,” and when I kind-of lose interest. So, i want something prior to that, as most of my ARs are about that old.) Iirc China began producing the stamped type 56 in 1967 If you don't care about getting a China-made rifle and just want a stamped type 56, the PSA spiker is probably your cheapest option to get your hands on a Vietnam-era accurate rifle. |
| You are making it too complicated. All I saw were dogged out rusty run of the mill Chinese AKs. Had one for several months. No idea if the receiver was milled or not. Take any Chinese AK, leave it out in the rain and whatever for about a year, drag it a couple of miles behind a four wheeler through the woods every week or so. That would about cover it. |
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Originally Posted By axl: You are making it too complicated. All I saw were dogged out rusty run of the mill Chinese AKs. Had one for several months. No idea if the receiver was milled or not. Take any Chinese AK, leave it out in the rain and whatever for about a year, drag it a couple of miles behind a four wheeler through the woods every week or so. That would about cover it. Lol |
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid"
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
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Atlantic Firearms has Bulgarian milled AK's available at the moment. Change the furniture to wood and it could be a decent representation of a type 3 milled seen during the time period. Lots of pics with captured Polish kbkg wz 1960 grenade launching AK's. On the stamped AKM side the Romanian MD63 with the "dong" handguard was around. |
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I know a guy locally who has a legit papered bringback Chinese M22. It's a type 3 milled fixed stock non spiker, Ive shot a mag through it a few years ago. If I wanted to clone it I'd find a milled Norinco or Polytech with wood fixed furniture or a angled underfolder. His looks exactly like this one, maybe in slightly better condition:  Also not his, but marked the same as this one: 
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Originally Posted By mech4matsnova: I know a guy locally who has a legit papered bringback Chinese M22. It's a type 3 milled fixed stock non spiker, Ive shot a mag through it a few years ago. If I wanted to clone it I'd find a milled Norinco or Polytech with wood fixed furniture or a angled underfolder. His looks exactly like this one, maybe in slightly better condition: https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/78/1589.jpg Also not his, but marked the same as this one: https://www.theakforum.net/attachments/pix855497182-jpg.298846/ https://atlanticfirearms.com/461982-atlantic_xl/bulgarian-milled-ak-underfolder.jpg I have never heard of the M22, so thanks for the info. Interesting that the one pictured doesn’t have the full hooded front sight like most Type 56s. I’ll read into it, but did the same factory (ie Norinco/66) make the M22 as did the Type 56? Or is the M22 just an internal, Chinese military Type 56, with the Type 56 being an export? Or maybe vice versa? I’m jealous of that guy lol. I have no select-fire firearms but maybe that’ll change one day. I’ve fired ARs, MP5, MP7, M249, M240, M2, BAR, Thompson, Sten, MP40, M1919 all on full auto - the MP5 being my favorite, with the AK a close second lol |
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid"
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
| As mentioned above, also check out the VZ-58. It really is an excellent gun and an improvement over the AK. I have one and love it. It is lighter, has a last round bolt hold open, and can be more accurate (depending on the barrel). The Czech made guns always went for a premium over AKs in the past. With AKs through the roof, they are right in line with them now and won't cost you much more than a milled AK unless you find a deal. |
| The VZ-58 is an interesting gun, but doesn’t scratch the itch for me, so to speak. |
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid"
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
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Originally Posted By ArmaLite_Aficionado: I have never heard of the M22, so thanks for the info. Interesting that the one pictured doesn’t have the full hooded front sight like most Type 56s. I’ll read into it, but did the same factory (ie Norinco/66) make the M22 as did the Type 56? Or is the M22 just an internal, Chinese military Type 56, with the Type 56 being an export? Or maybe vice versa? I’m jealous of that guy lol. I have no select-fire firearms but maybe that’ll change one day. I’ve fired ARs, MP5, MP7, M249, M240, M2, BAR, Thompson, Sten, MP40, M1919 all on full auto - the MP5 being my favorite, with the AK a close second lol Originally Posted By ArmaLite_Aficionado: Originally Posted By mech4matsnova: I know a guy locally who has a legit papered bringback Chinese M22. It's a type 3 milled fixed stock non spiker, Ive shot a mag through it a few years ago. If I wanted to clone it I'd find a milled Norinco or Polytech with wood fixed furniture or a angled underfolder. His looks exactly like this one, maybe in slightly better condition: https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/78/1589.jpg Also not his, but marked the same as this one: https://www.theakforum.net/attachments/pix855497182-jpg.298846/ https://atlanticfirearms.com/461982-atlantic_xl/bulgarian-milled-ak-underfolder.jpg I have never heard of the M22, so thanks for the info. Interesting that the one pictured doesn’t have the full hooded front sight like most Type 56s. I’ll read into it, but did the same factory (ie Norinco/66) make the M22 as did the Type 56? Or is the M22 just an internal, Chinese military Type 56, with the Type 56 being an export? Or maybe vice versa? I’m jealous of that guy lol. I have no select-fire firearms but maybe that’ll change one day. I’ve fired ARs, MP5, MP7, M249, M240, M2, BAR, Thompson, Sten, MP40, M1919 all on full auto - the MP5 being my favorite, with the AK a close second lol I'm not sure on which factory made them, but I'd assume /66\ did or did at one point until moved somewhere else. My understanding is they were marked and configured that way in an attempt to hide their country of origin before making their way into the hands of VC/NVA(mostly NVA). I've only shot it the one time but I've handled it several times, it's very solid feeling well made, it's definitely a different feel from the later stamped guns. |
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Don't forget the spiker. https://palmettostatearmory.com/soviet-arms-ak-47-spiker-rifle-redwood.html |
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M22 was a "deniable war aid" AK47 that was Chinese made. M21 was a "deniable war aid" SKS that was Chinese made. I own one. M20 was a Tokarev pistol. |
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Cool info, love learning new gun stuff! Thanks guys For shits and gigs, heres a couple pics of the times I did get to shoot select-fire AKs back in 2018 and 2019 Attached File Attached File |
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid"
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
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The sam7; with wood resembles some of the rifles I've seen in pictures. The Chinese SKS's are still available and relatively cheap still and come battlewarn if you wanted a couple different rifles. A real chicom is going to cost but they are around. With all that said I'm just going off what I have seen in movies and pictures. |
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Examples of just about every nation's AK production showed up during the war. Most of what they used was Chinese made. Even snarking over the vz.58's appearance in Full Metal Jacket, some of those ended up in Vietnam too. Not many, but there's pictures. |
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Originally Posted By Z09SS: Even snarking over the vz.58's appearance in Full Metal Jacket, some of those ended up in Vietnam too. Not many, but there's pictures. I'm curious what Czechoslovakia's export policy on vz 58s was. They showed up in Rhodesia and Angola, too, but, in both cases, their numbers were extremely limited. |
"What is socialism? The most difficult and tortuous way to progress from capitalism to capitalism." -Stated at an intel conference, East Berlin, Oct. 1988
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
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Originally Posted By lew: I'm curious what Czechoslovakia's export policy on vz 58s was. They showed up in Rhodesia and Angola, too, but, in both cases, their numbers were extremely limited. I think it's pretty interesting to consider which eastern bloc countries made sales or "aid" at the behest of the USSR, or just did so independently on their own volition. Iirc East Germany got into some shit with the USSR for making foreign arms deals when their economy started to falter in the 70s and 80s. |
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Originally Posted By mancat: I think it's pretty interesting to consider which eastern bloc countries made sales or "aid" at the behest of the USSR, or just did so independently on their own volition. Iirc East Germany got into some shit with the USSR for making foreign arms deals when their economy started to falter in the 70s and 80s. Originally Posted By mancat: Originally Posted By lew: I'm curious what Czechoslovakia's export policy on vz 58s was. They showed up in Rhodesia and Angola, too, but, in both cases, their numbers were extremely limited. I think it's pretty interesting to consider which eastern bloc countries made sales or "aid" at the behest of the USSR, or just did so independently on their own volition. Iirc East Germany got into some shit with the USSR for making foreign arms deals when their economy started to falter in the 70s and 80s. Indeed, though it seems Czechoslovakia had way more latitude than other Soviet satellites. For example, their support of the FLN/ALN in Algeria was done with little Russian interference/involvement. Moscow actually declined anything more than token support for the rebels, while the Czechoslovaks sent piles of materiel. |
"What is socialism? The most difficult and tortuous way to progress from capitalism to capitalism." -Stated at an intel conference, East Berlin, Oct. 1988
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." -H.L. Mencken
| “Polytech” was just a commercial entity. There would be no “Polytech” rifles in Vietnam. They were like the premium brand Norinco. A Polytech Legend (milled receiver) is your best for a Vietnam style AK rifle you can find (if you’re lucky), but it will cost you. A PSA is the cheapest easiest way to get into something very similar if you want Chinese style. A Romy would also work assuming you don’t have crazy money to burn. |
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I’m aware that Norinco and Polytech are commercial entities, but I bring them up because they both sold rifles made in the factories where Type 56s were made. Thanks for the info. |
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid"
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both"
“So Freedom Will Reign” / “SEEK! STRIKE! DESTROY!” / “Led By Love Of Country!”
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If I had the money, I’d go with either a 1980s made fixed stock Polytech Spiker, with a stamped receiver or a Norinco fixed stock Legend with a milled receiver. Not a Vietnam vet, but I’d go with a Chinese AK… To keep it simple and “Asian.” This way you can say “Here’s the Chicom AK…” and be factually correct. |
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Originally Posted By bergunx: If I had the money, I’d go with either a 1980s made fixed stock Polytech Spiker, with a stamped receiver or a Norinco fixed stock Legend with a milled receiver. Not a Vietnam vet, but I’d go with a Chinese AK… To keep it simple and “Asian.” This way you can say “Here’s the Chicom AK…” and be factually correct. If PSA doesn't already sell a "spiker conversion kit" with all of the parts necessary to fully restore/convert a sporter Norinco/Polytech, they should. |
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My dad was a Marine in Vietnam in 67-68 and he told me that the AK47 was a stamped together sheet metal piece of junk, so I'm guessing he ran into stamped variants. He didn't get any pics of enemy weapons, but he did bring back a Chicom AK mag. He was near the DMZ, so my guess is the enemy would have had new production rifles. The magazine he picked up after a firefight:  |
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According to North Vietnam's records 62% of small arms came from China, 12% from the Soviets, and 26% from all other communist countries (Romania, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, North Korea, and East Germany) combined. Almost all of the of AKs were milled, I would estimate in excess of 95%. The majority were Chinese. Both 1-5 Million serial numbers (open front sights, detachable knife bayonets although in practice bayonets seem to have rarely been issued), 8-10 million (hooded front sight, detachable knife bayonet) and M22 export models, which based on their physical characteristics seem to have been made at roughly the same time as the 8-10 million range all show up from the start in 1965. Chinese weapons were delivered brand new. The 11 million range, which based on the Chinese serial number theory would be 1966 production, seem to start showing up around 1967, the transition from knife bayonet to folding spike bayonet occured in this range. The 12 million range, with stamped front sling swivels and non-checkered pistol grips appears in 1968. Soviet AKs were mostly "Type 3" later milled rifles but earlier "Type 2" milled rifles appeared sporadically. I have seen only a single example of a "Type 1" early stamped rifle. Polish Kbk gn wz. 60 rifle grenade launchers appeared at least as early as 1968 and were reasonably common considering they were a specialist weapon issued one per squad. Polish kbk AKs, Bulgarian AKKs, North Korean Type 58s, and East German MPi-Ks all appeared but it's hard to judge exactly how frequently as they appear so similar to each other unless the markings are specifically written out or photographed. |
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Of what few stamped AKs were used most were Romanian PM md 63s and 65s, they began to show up around 1968 and got a little more common as the war went on. Both those with and without foregrips were used. They seem to have been delivered brand new, with a 1967 dated example being captured in March 1968 and a 1971 and a 1972 example being used in 1972. Hungarian AKM-63s and AMD-65s were also present in very small numbers, again appearing in 1968. The earliest stamped Type 56 I have seen was in 1973, with one possible but uncertain instance in 1972. Early production Type 56s had no mag well dimple, and of all the stamped Type 56s I have seen used in the war were of this type. A few Soviet AKMs had made it to Vietnam by 1975 at least, but I have yet to see any evidence of them earlier. A US intelligence report from 1970 conclusively stated that no Soviet AKMs or East German Mpi-KMs had been encountered. Of course intelligence reports are not infallible, but at the very least it would suggest the number was so miniscule as to go unnoticed. Czechoslovakia supplied Vietnam with 1,300-1,500 vz. 58s in 1965, 10,000 in 1969, 8,000 in 1970, and 10,000-15,000 per year from 1971-1975. |
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Originally Posted By Cap_Camouflage: Of what few stamped AKs were used most were Romanian PM md 63s and 65s, they began to show up around 1968 and got a little more common as the war went on. Both those with and without foregrips were used. They seem to have been delivered brand new, with a 1967 dated example being captured in March 1968 and a 1971 and a 1972 example being used in 1972. Hungarian AKM-63s and AMD-65s were also present in very small numbers, again appearing in 1968. The earliest stamped Type 56 I have seen was in 1973, with one possible but uncertain instance in 1972. Early production Type 56s had no mag well dimple, and of all the stamped Type 56s I have seen used in the war were of this type. A few Soviet AKMs had made it to Vietnam by 1975 at least, but I have yet to see any evidence of them earlier. A US intelligence report from 1970 conclusively stated that no Soviet AKMs or East German Mpi-KMs had been encountered. Of course intelligence reports are not infallible, but at the very least it would suggest the number was so miniscule as to go unnoticed. Czechoslovakia supplied Vietnam with 1,300-1,500 vz. 58s in 1965, 10,000 in 1969, 8,000 in 1970, and 10,000-15,000 per year from 1971-1975.  You are off to a great start with your informative posts. |
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