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Posted: 6/17/2009 8:25:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 8:25:15 AM EST by kabob983]
Two questions,

1) Which active duty branch of the military gives the most marksmanship (mostly M-16 I guess) training to it's troops?

2) Which reserve branch of the military gives the most marksmanship training to it's troops?

Just curious, I assume it'd be the Army or Marines. Also, how does the overall training doctrine between the branches differ?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:29:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By kabob983:
Two questions,

1) Which active duty branch of the military gives the most marksmanship (mostly M-16 I guess) training to it's troops?

2) Which reserve branch of the military gives the most marksmanship training to it's troops?

Just curious, I assume it'd be the Army or Marines. Also, how does the overall training doctrine between the branches differ?

Overall, the Marines have a much greater service-wide emphasis on rifle marksmanship...

The Army is very much a 'not my lane' type organization, where the combat arms folks are heavily trained, but support folks qualify twice a year and in many cases never shoot live ammo outside of those qualifications....

In terms of doctrine, the Marines are much more focused on 'fundamentals' (500yd known-distance shooting, for example) whereas the Army focuses more on 'practical shooting' (reflex shoots, qualification is against reactive pop-up targets from multiple positions & varying ranges, etc)....


Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:34:41 AM EST
Marine training encompasses the 500yd shooting in basic as well as the EMP/Gunfighter program designed by Pat Rogers, at least back in 06 most deploying units had to go through it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:36:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By kabob983:
Two questions,

1) Which active duty branch of the military gives the most marksmanship (mostly M-16 I guess) training to it's troops?

2) Which reserve branch of the military gives the most marksmanship training to it's troops?

Just curious, I assume it'd be the Army or Marines. Also, how does the overall training doctrine between the branches differ?

Overall, the Marines have a much greater service-wide emphasis on rifle marksmanship...

The Army is very much a 'not my lane' type organization, where the combat arms folks are heavily trained, but support folks qualify twice a year and in many cases never shoot live ammo outside of those qualifications....

In terms of doctrine, the Marines are much more focused on 'fundamentals' (500yd known-distance shooting, for example) whereas the Army focuses more on 'practical shooting' (reflex shoots, qualification is against reactive pop-up targets from multiple positions & varying ranges, etc)....




What he said.

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 10:23:44 AM EST
I figured the Marines would emphasize it the most but I didn't think the Army would have a lack of focus on it...hrm. Another question, what's the typical amount of time that said branches train with firearms? Also, no one answered the original question #2 (or is there no good answer?).

What is the EMP/Gunfighter training you mentioned? The name would suggest "if an EMP went off and all technology is gone, how do you fight" or something of the sort.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 12:40:05 PM EST
USMC hands down, without question. I know this to be fact and I was in the Army.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:01:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By kabob983:
I figured the Marines would emphasize it the most but I didn't think the Army would have a lack of focus on it...hrm. Another question, what's the typical amount of time that said branches train with firearms? Also, no one answered the original question #2 (or is there no good answer?).

What is the EMP/Gunfighter training you mentioned? The name would suggest "if an EMP went off and all technology is gone, how do you fight" or something of the sort.

1) It's not so much that the Army doesn't emphasize it - they do IF you are (Infantry, Armor, MP, etc)...

It's just that the Army is HUGE compared to the Marines, and 'everyone's a rifleman' is NOT in our organizational culture... Infantrymen are 'Riflemen' - Aviation Mechanics (for example) are... Mechanics...

2) Nothing to do with the survival-fiction EMP crap... It's the Marine Corps practical-shooting training program (basically, they increased their emphasis on the sort of stuff the Army traditionally focuses on, in addition to their known-distance marksmanship program)...


Link Posted: 6/17/2009 3:27:53 PM EST
former Marine, now a Soldier.


the Marines are far better at weapons training for the average troop (ie, not SF, Recon, Rangers, etc). most of this is a different mindset.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:14:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By cookhj:
former Marine, now a Soldier.


the Marines are far better at weapons training for the average troop (ie, not SF, Recon, Rangers, etc). most of this is a different mindset.


I know I am going to get hammered for asking this, you say "former Marine, now a Soldier." You moved from the Marine Corps to the Army? Not down 100% with the PC terminology.

If so I didn't know you could switch branches.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:28:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By kabob983:
Originally Posted By cookhj:
former Marine, now a Soldier.


the Marines are far better at weapons training for the average troop (ie, not SF, Recon, Rangers, etc). most of this is a different mindset.


I know I am going to get hammered for asking this, you say "former Marine, now a Soldier." You moved from the Marine Corps to the Army? Not down 100% with the PC terminology.

If so I didn't know you could switch branches.


Generally speaking: after you do your time with one branch you can re-enlist with another branch.

And, like everybody else said, the Corps places more of an emphasis on marksmanship than other branches. At least that's what I gather by talking to friends who were in the other services.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:48:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 6:49:25 PM EST by TheFlynDutchman]
Originally Posted By kabob983:
I figured the Marines would emphasize it the most but I didn't think the Army would have a lack of focus on it...hrm. Another question, what's the typical amount of time that said branches train with firearms? Also, no one answered the original question #2 (or is there no good answer?).

What is the EMP/Gunfighter training you mentioned? The name would suggest "if an EMP went off and all technology is gone, how do you fight" or something of the sort.


4 years....(depending on your MOS)

I was a USMC grunt.....

The training never ended
Link Posted: 7/4/2009 4:51:43 PM EST
I went to boot camp in 93/94. We spent about a month at Edson Range, and I think about 3 weeks of that was focused on the M16A2.
Link Posted: 7/4/2009 10:14:10 PM EST
Thank god nobody said Air Force...

USMC - I'm the anomaly in that I've gone 2.5 years without shooting on the taxpayer's dime, but our program is built around very fundamental shooting, and goes as far as applying it to shooting from various positions and on the move - non combat arms stops there, then moves to more stuff pre deployment.
Link Posted: 7/4/2009 11:25:11 PM EST
Not the Army

I was in boot camp, and this bolo spent the entire day on the range

He knew nothing about trigger pull, and the retard drill Sgt's for some reason didn't tuitor him

He qualified about 20 times until the range closed, and didn't pass

Long and behold, he still grad, with the rest of us......

FYI.... The whole company was infantry

standards have fallen so you can imagine what is going on now
Link Posted: 7/5/2009 12:18:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By TehLlama42:
Thank god nobody said Air Force...
.


Ummmmmmmmmm

You mean when we shot 80 rounds in basic that was not enough.

Then about the same every two years or so.....

I am sure glad I sent off the Pilot to get shot at and not me, he could at least blow the enemy up. I could have thrown a wrench at some one though....
Link Posted: 7/5/2009 1:45:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By kabob983:
What is the EMP/Gunfighter training you mentioned? The name would suggest "if an EMP went off and all technology is gone, how do you fight" or something of the sort.


Enhanced Marksmanship Program, it no longer being done. Now the CMP (Combat Marksmanship Program) encompasses aspects of EMP into its table 3 and 4. If you do Tables 1-4 you will shoot 1264 rounds from 7 meters to 500 meters, both know and unknown distance.

EMP was developed from the POI (Program of Instruction) used by Marine Security Forces, which was developed by a future Gunsite staffer.

At the same time we did EMP on one coast, the other coast was doing MOCS (Mission Oriented Combat Shooting) which it was totally based on the Gunsite Carbine Course.
Link Posted: 7/24/2009 4:03:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By kabob983:
What is the EMP/Gunfighter training you mentioned? The name would suggest "if an EMP went off and all technology is gone, how do you fight" or something of the sort.


Enhanced Marksmanship Program, it no longer being done. Now the CMP (Combat Marksmanship Program) encompasses aspects of EMP into its table 3 and 4. If you do Tables 1-4 you will shoot 1264 rounds from 7 meters to 500 meters, both know and unknown distance.

EMP was developed from the POI (Program of Instruction) used by Marine Security Forces, which was developed by a future Gunsite staffer.

At the same time we did EMP on one coast, the other coast was doing MOCS (Mission Oriented Combat Shooting) which it was totally based on the Gunsite Carbine Course.


Dang - I am outdated already
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 6:35:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2009 6:35:59 AM EST by Herk-Healer]
quote]Originally Posted By Kent2:
Originally Posted By TehLlama42:
Thank god nobody said Air Force...
.




Its 100rds and a pretty gruling course. First you have to be to the gun range buy 8am, they you have to sit in a class listing to some CATAM instructor tell you about your rifle. Around lunch time you go out and shoot 100rds, buy 1 pm your at home drinking beer, pretty freaking hard.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 9:54:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2009 9:55:22 AM EST by JPC]
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By kabob983:
What is the EMP/Gunfighter training you mentioned? The name would suggest "if an EMP went off and all technology is gone, how do you fight" or something of the sort.


Enhanced Marksmanship Program, it no longer being done. Now the CMP (Combat Marksmanship Program) encompasses aspects of EMP into its table 3 and 4. If you do Tables 1-4 you will shoot 1264 rounds from 7 meters to 500 meters, both know and unknown distance.

EMP was developed from the POI (Program of Instruction) used by Marine Security Forces, which was developed by a future Gunsite staffer.

At the same time we did EMP on one coast, the other coast was doing MOCS (Mission Oriented Combat Shooting) which it was totally based on the Gunsite Carbine Course.


Dang - I am outdated already


All of this developed from certain Recon training,waay back
aka HRT and combat walk training,,so who's the boot?
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 10:43:47 AM EST
the army really didn't seem to emphasisze marksmanship when I was in.
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 4:43:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By JPC:
All of this developed from certain Recon training,waay back
aka HRT and combat walk training,,so who's the boot?


Combat glide?

Ever hear the phrase "Didgies up!"? (spelling wrong on purpose for pronounciation purposes).

Sorry, hijack...
Link Posted: 7/25/2009 9:43:41 PM EST
Ahh the old "Marines are riflemen first"... myth. Yes myth. A Marine who's an admin clerk is the same as Soldier who's an admin clerk. Shooting once or twice a year or even four times a year does not make someone a "rifleman". Having served along side them in two theaters of war I just smile at this. The Marine who's carrying her weapon in a chow slung position is no better prepared than the Airman or the Soldier doing the same.

However, to the argument at hand. The Marines do start out with a better focus on marksmanship. However the Army has far more courses and professional development for our shooters. This speaks to money, time, and personnel- we have it and can rotate more people to shooting courses than the Marines can. Which is why a lot of these courses are joint.

Bottom line, a company of Rangers will spend more time at a range in one month than most do all year and focus on everything from 300m+ shooting to shoot houses and other stress fires. Much can be said for a company of infantryman in either the Army or Marines, just less time at a range. Now obviously those in the SOF community spend more time at a range but will focus on different distances and techniques. Its not unheard of to watch them go through 2,000 rounds per individual per day for a week. During one course I (non-SOF) personally shot a 1,000 rounds a day for a week straight and learned more about me, my weapon, and fundamentals than anyone who spends 5 hours on a 500m or 300m range zeroing and qualifying.

You want to watch some wizards go through some rounds? Visit the Army's Marksmanship Unit at Ft. Benning, GA, that is all they do all day long. No special optics for the most part and their weapons are pristine. They are as much as a training unit as they are a demonstration and rewards program that gives outstanding shooters a way to demonstrate skills and take a break from multiple deployments. Hell one of their shooters won a gold medal these past Olympics.
Link Posted: 7/26/2009 2:07:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By kudzu630:
Ahh the old "Marines are riflemen first"... myth. Yes myth. A Marine who's an admin clerk is the same as Soldier who's an admin clerk. Shooting once or twice a year or even four times a year does not make someone a "rifleman". Having served along side them in two theaters of war I just smile at this. The Marine who's carrying her weapon in a chow slung position is no better prepared than the Airman or the Soldier doing the same.

However, to the argument at hand. The Marines do start out with a better focus on marksmanship. However the Army has far more courses and professional development for our shooters. This speaks to money, time, and personnel- we have it and can rotate more people to shooting courses than the Marines can. Which is why a lot of these courses are joint.

Bottom line, a company of Rangers will spend more time at a range in one month than most do all year and focus on everything from 300m+ shooting to shoot houses and other stress fires. Much can be said for a company of infantryman in either the Army or Marines, just less time at a range. Now obviously those in the SOF community spend more time at a range but will focus on different distances and techniques. Its not unheard of to watch them go through 2,000 rounds per individual per day for a week. During one course I (non-SOF) personally shot a 1,000 rounds a day for a week straight and learned more about me, my weapon, and fundamentals than anyone who spends 5 hours on a 500m or 300m range zeroing and qualifying.

You want to watch some wizards go through some rounds? Visit the Army's Marksmanship Unit at Ft. Benning, GA, that is all they do all day long. No special optics for the most part and their weapons are pristine. They are as much as a training unit as they are a demonstration and rewards program that gives outstanding shooters a way to demonstrate skills and take a break from multiple deployments. Hell one of their shooters won a gold medal these past Olympics.


I would agree that the "Ever Marine is a Riflemen" is a bit of marking hype and ethos building. However, that admin, pogue female did actually go through a short infantry school between boot camp and MOS school. When she gets to the fleet, she like ever other non-combat arms guy spends their time doing their MOS and will only shoot tables 1-2 of the CMP and prior to deploying she will shoot table 3, which is really only good to get her up to speed on self defense. If you are not in a combat arms MOS, or directly support those who are, that is about it. If you are in an infantry unit or combat arms unit doing a in lieu of mission, you will spend allot of time shooting prior to deploying. Will you be up to the level of a Ranger Company or a SMU? Of course not, but that is comparing apples to bananas.

Link Posted: 7/26/2009 5:27:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By kabob983:
Originally Posted By cookhj:
former Marine, now a Soldier.


the Marines are far better at weapons training for the average troop (ie, not SF, Recon, Rangers, etc). most of this is a different mindset.


I know I am going to get hammered for asking this, you say "former Marine, now a Soldier." You moved from the Marine Corps to the Army? Not down 100% with the PC terminology.

If so I didn't know you could switch branches.


yes you can switch branches. i went from blowing stuff up in the Corps to flying helicopters for the Army.

i would've stayed in the Corps but warrant officers don't fly in the Marines and i don't want to be a commissioned officer.
Link Posted: 8/1/2009 6:16:32 AM EST
USMC and Army give the needed basics during initial training with the Marines giving far more emphasis than the Army. In the Army, after basic training it becomes a numbers game of just having people qualified (23 hits out of 40 possible). Very little additional training is given unless your mission requires it, i.e. infantry. the thought process was "You're not infantry, so you don't need extra weapons training. You need to focus on getting your (clerk, mechanic, cook, etc.) job done!" The most difficult part of more training is convincing higher ups that it is needed for all.

After the incident involving PVT Lynch, the Army started scratching their heads thinking about more weapons training for all, including more traditionally infantry missions training. The Army offers advanced rifle training both long range (Squad Designated Marksman) and shorter range (Close Quarters Marskmanship). These courses are available to all soldiers, not just combat arms types. Very slowly, the Army is changing its mindset on weapons training.
As for the Navy and Air force, new recruits are given the bare minimum of training on weapons. All the Reserve and National Guard goes thru the regular services basic training then to there weekend unit. Most reserve and Guard units conduct minimal training until time to deploy then jump thru hoops to get better training.

It alll depends on which job you do and when you deploy next as to how much training you get.
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