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Posted: 9/30/2015 7:54:25 AM EDT
There were some questions raised about the Tactical Clearance techniques shown in this video from the MVT Rifleman Challenge:



This is an intro for students at the end of the Challenge. We do run a 2 day Citizen Class Combat class  which goes into detail, but this class is only for alumni of Combat Team Tactics (it's a progression).

I have written several blog posts on Tactical Clearance. I am currently, as a new account, limited to only 2000 characters per post, so I'll put the first part and the link to the post.

BLUF: these techniques are designed for the reality of CQB room entry and clearance in high threat environments. There are other schools teaching similar techniques. I did not invent this, those that know, know. It is what those of us who have BTDT recognize as the truth of it. This topic will unfortunately and inevitably attract a lot of trolls, because it is not what is mostly taught at SWAT fantasy camp.

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Tactical Clearance: An Alternative CQB Technique

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For those of you who have read my blog for a while, you will know that I have big issues with the way CQB is taught and conducted. Traditional dynamic entry/immediate entry style CQB clearance methods show obvious tactical disadvantages against prepared or barricaded defenders. What is needed is a shift in thinking and training in the way CQB is conducted, with the priority becoming gaining an immediate tactical advantage, leading to greater survivability........more at link.
Link Posted: 9/30/2015 9:02:32 AM EDT
As I guy who was at the Rifleman Challenge, where this vid was shot, and a guy who just went through the Citizen Close Combat course, I can give you my opinion of this subject.  In the vid, we were just given an intro to room clearing techniques, on the 3d day of training.  We were pretty smoked and did some things incorrectly.  These were subsequently corrected.  When I got to C3 class, I again saw what we did wrong, and spent a couple of days learning how to do it correctly.  To answer the criticism, the corners are (usually) cleared before entry, using this technique.  It is just unfortunate that the vid picked up our mistake.  I'm sure you can cherry-pick anything you like and find mistakes in it.  That does not invalidate the training program, as far as I'm concerned.  

Let me explain where this came from.  The instructor deployed to Iraq, using all the techniques he had been taught by "DOD".  The vaunted COI so loved by .gov types.  Well, he found out that a lot of it was bullshit.  In fact, a lot of guys got killed before they figured that out.  Here's an example.  The team is stacked and ready to enter a room.  Uh rah, let's jump on in there and kick some ass.  They flood the room, and try to go for domination.  In the meantime, the oppo has cut a little mouse hole to the adjoining room, and have a guy with an AK sitting in there.  As soon as the guys flood the room, he opens up, through the opening, and just massacres the entry team.  They try to return fire, but the aperture is so small they can't get any hits.

What this led to was using a double "pie" technique, from the doorway, which allows you to scan (and service targets) on about 85% of the room.  This way, you're not committed before clearing a good portion of the room.  If you did hit a prepared position like this example, you could more easily pull back out of the way.  Then before entry, you both "pop" and clear the last 15% of the corners you couldn't see.  Again, you're not in the room yet.  You "roll" in, check for targets, then enter.  Once you enter, you run the walls, to your domination point.

Again, when done correctly, this is a very viable technique, in my opinion.  

So if you want to blame someone, blame the dumb-ass students who didn't do the entry correctly.  The COI is GTG, in my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/1/2015 7:52:08 PM EDT
I had a chance to try this technique and think it compares favorably with the alternatives.
everything about it just passes the common sense test.

I always had  some discomfort with the "flood the room " method as it was taught at places but was always told that "this is the way its done by those who know what they are doing".

But it never really made  a lot of sense to me just form the geometry and lines of fire and the ability of others to take you under fire.

Flooding the room probably is great shock and awe against the average teenage Methhead asleep with his Glock, but against determined opposition the :"fight from the door" makes much more sense.
.
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 3:04:40 PM EDT
Since a discussion was requested about this, I'll leave this from another thread:

Quoted:
Quoted:
You don't know what we teach, other than watching a couple of highlights videos.

'Combat clearance' is widely used, for example by Ranger Regiment.


View Quote



Nope.  Called and spoke with some of my old teammates yesterday about this.  They are currently utilizing variations of width and depth, and zone clearance.  They specifically do not use what you are advocating for the following reasons:

1) walls are not cover and you cannot just back up with a stack of guys
2) the doorways are too narrow to allow 2 shooters at the same time, even posted at the corner
3) you lose all aggressiveness shooting from a doorway and enable any return fire to be focused on you
4) it doesn't allow for control of civilians and enables the threats to briefly act rather than react.  It cancels out the element of surprise.

In short, 75th DOES NOT USE IT because it doesn't work.  

I also called some friends at SFAUC in the Springs.  They had someone show them this method and it looked ok until UTMs were flying.  Entry man got shot up EVERY TIME with this method.  They do not advocate it.  


I know Max will refute this with his dying breath, even though he has not been to any of the units that he claims are using it other than the Para (regular UK infantry).  If someone can name a source in 75th that is using it (name, rank, company & Bn), I can call them to verify.
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Link Posted: 10/7/2015 3:20:29 PM EDT
Is Diz an instructor or paid advertiser?  
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 4:20:27 PM EDT
Neither one, funny guy.

You want full disclosure Jersey boy?  Here you go:

Cold war jarhead, nuthin' special, deployed to Korea, Okinawa, and the Philippines.

Various classes, CCW, Fighting Rifle, Pistol, etc.

Been to MVT 6 times this year, taking various classes there.  CTT, CP, NOD-F, RC II, C3.  Paid for each of these classes.

Designed MVT line of tactical nylon for Max.

Oh yeah, Moderator at MVT forum.

Gear maker by trade.

I just happen to believe it's good place to go for training.  



 

Link Posted: 10/7/2015 4:20:30 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is Diz an instructor or paid advertiser?  
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Moderator on MVT's forum. He gets discounts for posting here to help out Max Velocity.

From MVT's forum:  
"I already offered D_J, who started the huge Max Velocity Tactical thread, which is now locked and has 3081 views, a 50% discount off a class of his choice. His original inquiry was about MVT and whether we are legit.

So, I may offer something similar to anyone who, above and beyond the line of duty, does heroic things for MVT on ARFCOM. Diz already earned his 50% discount for heroic efforts made."
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 4:21:38 PM EDT
Dude that was combat pay for posting over here.

If I wanted this shit, I woulda gone to socnet and talked about their mothers.
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 5:42:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Dude that was combat pay for posting over here.

If I wanted this shit, I woulda gone to socnet and talked about their mothers.
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I don't think you'd be welcome there after some of your posts on here. I have challenged Max to go to similar forums and start his "discussions."  I'm not holding my breath though.  

Link Posted: 10/7/2015 6:23:43 PM EDT
Nah, I'll pass.  Did you read my other threads?

Here's the deal, seriously, all bullshit aside, Ranger.  I think most civilians involved in tactical training are there as a hobby, because it's fun to dress up and play CAG/DevGru assaulter. I think very few are there because they think they'll actually need this stuff.  Fact is, I really don't like to shoot.  To me, my rifle represents my freedom.  I train with it because I want to prepared for anything that comes my way.  The reason I went to Max is because I wanted to get off the square range and get up to speed on SUT again, with live fire training.  The vast majority of guys end their training at the square range.  I wanted to come over here with the message if you're like me, and want to be ready for possible hard times, here's a school to look into.  That's it, end of story.

I am not a MVT employee.  I have paid for all my courses so far.  Max offered me a discount on my next class for helping to spread the word over here.  Just his way of saying thanks.  

I have done the design work for his new line of tac gear.  And yeah, they made me a moderator over there because I kept posting so much shit.  

I consider him a friend.  And I am just loyal to my friends.  That's all it is.  
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 7:22:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nah, I'll pass.  Did you read my other threads?

Here's the deal, seriously, all bullshit aside, Ranger.  I think most civilians involved in tactical training are there as a hobby, because it's fun to dress up and play CAG/DevGru assaulter. I think very few are there because they think they'll actually need this stuff.  Fact is, I really don't like to shoot.  To me, my rifle represents my freedom.  I train with it because I want to prepared for anything that comes my way.  The reason I went to Max is because I wanted to get off the square range and get up to speed on SUT again, with live fire training.  The vast majority of guys end their training at the square range.  I wanted to come over here with the message if you're like me, and want to be ready for possible hard times, here's a school to look into.  That's it, end of story.

I am not a MVT employee.  I have paid for all my courses so far.  Max offered me a discount on my next class for helping to spread the word over here.  Just his way of saying thanks.  

I have done the design work for his new line of tac gear.  And yeah, they made me a moderator over there because I kept posting so much shit.  

I consider him a friend.  And I am just loyal to my friends.  That's all it is.  
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There is nothing wrong with anything you just said. More people do need to get out and train. I would encourage you to find other trainers and other schools of thought.  If you've taken the vast majority of your classes from 2-3 trainers only (one of them 6 times in 1 year?), then your views and scope are limited to just what they teach. I won't discuss the tactics by MVT or Yeager in this post, but you are in an area saturated by well vetted and respected instructors, most with 20+ yrs in SOF. It would be remiss to not seek out their knowledge.

And yes, there are way too many of the tacticool ninjas out there just to play dress up. You don't sound like one of them. Keep the thoughts flowing...
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 7:48:27 PM EDT
Legitimate points, coloccw... The problem is that most of them will not teach any kind of team tactics to civilians.  PLEASE understand I am NOT trying to stir up any shit by saying that!   Regardless of what you think of their tactics, MVT, "Mosby", and Yeager are really the only trainers I know about that are teaching team tactics to civilians.

I know Pat Rogers has his shoot-house courses, which are probably great 2-man CQB tactics.  Paul Howe has his "Citizen Response to Active Shooter" shoot house class, which is 1-man tactics oriented, and I can attest is an AWESOME course!  But where else can a "regular guy" step up to 2+ man team tactics, in or out of a shoot house?




Link Posted: 10/7/2015 7:54:43 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Legitimate points, coloccw... The problem is that most of them will not teach any kind of team tactics to civilians.  PLEASE understand I am NOT trying to stir up any shit by saying that!   Regardless of what you think of their tactics, MVT, "Mosby", and Yeager are really the only trainers I know about that are teaching team tactics to civilians.

I know Pat Rogers has his shoot-house courses, which are probably great 2-man CQB tactics.  Paul Howe has his "Citizen Response to Active Shooter" shoot house class, which is 1-man tactics oriented, and I can attest is an AWESOME course!  But where else can a "regular guy" step up to 2+ man team tactics, in or out of a shoot house?




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DARC has a team class that's designed for non-professional firearm users.  You should take a look at it.
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:22:48 PM EDT
Whiskey (username) on this forum is another Ranger who teaches team tactics to civilians. I'll see if I can locate his website.
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:29:48 PM EDT
Whiskey (username) on this forum is another Ranger who teaches team tactics to civilians. I'll see if I can locate his website.

Edit:  here it is.  http://www.gmtgtactical.com/
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:35:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:38:00 PM EDT
Glad to see the conversation has become more civil.

Thanks guys!
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:41:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

DARC has a team class that's designed for non-professional firearm users.  You should take a look at it.
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Cool.  I just looked at the darc1.com website...  Is their "Advanced Urban Warfare" course the one you're talking about?  



Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:47:52 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Whiskey (username) on this forum is another Ranger who teaches team tactics to civilians. I'll see if I can locate his website.

Edit:  here it is.  http://www.gmtgtactical.com/
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Thanks!  I will check it out.

Link Posted: 10/7/2015 8:59:03 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Cool.  I just looked at the darc1.com website...  Is their "Advanced Urban Warfare" course the one you're talking about?  



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

DARC has a team class that's designed for non-professional firearm users.  You should take a look at it.


Cool.  I just looked at the darc1.com website...  Is their "Advanced Urban Warfare" course the one you're talking about?  






Think it's called Tactical Urban Sustainment.
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 9:29:28 PM EDT
Deleted- withdrawing from any conversations with the OP
Link Posted: 10/7/2015 9:34:58 PM EDT
The more the merrier.

I think it's crucial that civilian first defenders take this kind of training like described by the OP as part of their training progression.

I think it's a better pay off IMO than even perfecting the carbine speeds (though that certainly doesnt hurt)  because ;learning to use cover in a real environment will pay even bigger dividends when bullets fly.

PS: Also really liking the improved nature of the discourse.
Link Posted: 10/8/2015 8:17:09 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Neither one, funny guy.

You want full disclosure Jersey boy?  Here you go:

Cold war jarhead, nuthin' special, deployed to Korea, Okinawa, and the Philippines.

Various classes, CCW, Fighting Rifle, Pistol, etc.

Been to MVT 6 times this year, taking various classes there.  CTT, CP, NOD-F, RC II, C3.  Paid for each of these classes.

Designed MVT line of tactical nylon for Max.

Oh yeah, Moderator at MVT forum.

Gear maker by trade.

I just happen to believe it's good place to go for training.  



 

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So then yes, you are indeed affiliated with the company and make money off his success which is why you defend it so much (not getting into the shitstorm between you, Max and others I was just curious why you were going to great lengths to defend it, and now I know why, $$$$$$).  But glad to see the company and it's employers still result to name calling ;)
Link Posted: 10/8/2015 10:15:24 AM EDT
That's bullshit.   I've said twice, for the hard of understanding, that I have paid for every class I have taken there.  I defended Max over here because I consider him a friend.  He offered a 1/2 price discount on my next class as a way of saying thanks.  

You say you have no dog in the fight, but yet talk shit about me.

Whatever dude.  

Link Posted: 10/8/2015 11:29:47 AM EDT
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