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Posted: 7/12/2007 1:44:28 PM EDT
I've never taken a rifle class and was wondering what the recomended speed of movement is when shooting on the move. I've found I can stay on target much better when I slow down to a walk. I also wonder if it would be wiser to not try to shoot but rather just sprint for cover if its availible. I'd like to hear any other ideas anyone has also. Thanks
Link Posted: 7/12/2007 3:19:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Take a two-day rifle class.  Seriously.

Trying to learn on your own may seem like a good idea at the moment, but it will probably ingrain some bad habits.

Sorry to come off like that, but it's the best advice I can give.
Link Posted: 7/12/2007 3:40:57 PM EDT
[#2]
FMD is right, Take a class and get some good fundamentals.
Link Posted: 7/12/2007 6:35:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Do not move so fast that you cannot hit your target.

Don't worry if you suck at it.

It is a skill in the toolbox, but its usefullness is debated depending on what you do.

For instance, Paul Howe (of Delta Force) cannot remember shooting on the move in Somolia (Black Hawk Down), but stated that he fired from cover or took also dropped to a knee for quick shots on movers.

No doubt he had trained on it and could do it better than any of us hear, just didn't need the skill.

He was either hauling ass to cover or shooting from a steady position. YMMV


Link Posted: 7/12/2007 8:36:09 PM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
I've never taken a rifle class and was wondering what the recomended speed of movement is when shooting on the move. I've found I can stay on target much better when I slow down to a walk. I also wonder if it would be wiser to not try to shoot but rather just sprint for cover if its availible. I'd like to hear any other ideas anyone has also. Thanks


You move as fast as you can get good hits on your target.  The better you get at doing it, the faster you can move.  

We already know how to shoot from stationary positions and haul a** in between, so shooting on the move is a skill that is worth learning.

When to do which is something no one can answer for you.  It depends on the situation, your skill level, and how fast you can move.

In my case, I can shoot and get good hits while moving about as fast as I can move without shooting (I'm slow!).  Shooting on the move is going to be the better option for me more often than someone who can sprint fast enough to be a difficult target.

Link Posted: 7/13/2007 2:54:01 AM EDT
[#5]
A good class is always a good idea, but...........

One thing to remember is that you are shooting on the move.  It is a flowing action of constant motion.  Do not move slow to a pause, shoot, move slow to a pause shoot, over and over.  This is a common mistake for people learning to shoot on the move.  It takes a lot of reps to be smooth, and it is easier once you get smooth.
Link Posted: 7/13/2007 5:29:56 PM EDT
[#6]
I don't remember who said it first "Slow is smoothe and smoothe is fast" but they were right
Link Posted: 7/15/2007 1:41:08 AM EDT
[#7]
Practice shooting on the move if you can, but tactically it is far more sound to move to cover before shooting, in most cases.
Link Posted: 7/15/2007 5:51:23 AM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
Practice shooting on the move if you can, but tactically it is far more sound to move to cover before shooting, in most cases.


What he said!
Link Posted: 7/15/2007 5:19:51 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
A good class is always a good idea, but...........

One thing to remember is that you are shooting on the move.  It is a flowing action of constant motion.  Do not move slow to a pause, shoot, move slow to a pause shoot, over and over.  This is a common mistake for people learning to shoot on the move.  It takes a lot of reps to be smooth, and it is easier once you get smooth.


Missed you this weekend.

Great class.  
Link Posted: 7/15/2007 5:26:38 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:
Practice shooting on the move if you can, but tactically it is far more sound to move to cover before shooting, in most cases.


the ability to fire accurately while advancing / retreating / moving laterally toward cover is a very, very useful skill.

Cover is nice, but not always available, and if it is, it's generally somewhere other than where you currently are.

moving and shooting is another tool in the tool box, and one that should definitely be kept sharp, in my not so professional opinion.
Link Posted: 7/16/2007 1:16:03 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Practice shooting on the move if you can, but tactically it is far more sound to move to cover before shooting, in most cases.


the ability to fire accurately while advancing / retreating / moving laterally toward cover is a very, very useful skill.

Cover is nice, but not always available, and if it is, it's generally somewhere other than where you currently are.

moving and shooting is another tool in the tool box, and one that should definitely be kept sharp, in my not so professional opinion.


I respectfully disagree.  If cover is not available, don't keep moving while standing!  Get prone!  Try standing in the open during a gunfight...

Why do you think the Army spends so much time training us to CRAWL?!
Link Posted: 7/16/2007 4:19:53 AM EDT
[#12]
If you don't have your next shooting point (behind cover) picked out, you shouldn't be moving from your current place of cover. Taking off in the middle of gun fight, with no idea where you are going is not a good thing to do. You should have your next point of cover (firing position) picked out before you get up and take off.

I don't think anybody is saying that you shouldn't practice shooting while moving, nor that it isn't a good "tool" to have in your tool box. I think what some are saying is that in the middle of gun fight, your concern should be to haul ass between shooting positions that provide good cover. YMMV
Link Posted: 7/16/2007 9:04:51 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Practice shooting on the move if you can, but tactically it is far more sound to move to cover before shooting, in most cases.


the ability to fire accurately while advancing / retreating / moving laterally toward cover is a very, very useful skill.

Cover is nice, but not always available, and if it is, it's generally somewhere other than where you currently are.

moving and shooting is another tool in the tool box, and one that should definitely be kept sharp, in my not so professional opinion.


I respectfully disagree.  If cover is not available, don't keep moving while standing!  Get prone!  Try standing in the open during a gunfight...

Why do you think the Army spends so much time training us to CRAWL?!


i was under the assumption that going prone was rather common sense, so i considered it beyond the scope of this discussion. but, you bring up a good point.
Link Posted: 7/22/2007 7:55:04 AM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:
I've never taken a rifle class and was wondering what the recomended speed of movement is when shooting on the move. I've found I can stay on target much better when I slow down to a walk. I also wonder if it would be wiser to not try to shoot but rather just sprint for cover if its availible. I'd like to hear any other ideas anyone has also. Thanks



It depends on a lot of variables!

Every additional skill you can learn is an advantage that said there is a huge difference in tactics that you waould want to employ based on the big picture.  Are you training to fire with a team, lone self defense, ect?  
There are two schools of thought here:
1. Get to concelement/cover ASAP
2. Fire off some rounds on the move to concelement/cover
Both have merit but depend on how long it takes you to get to cover / how many are shooting at you/ how many are shooting back
Example:
If I was caught in the open alone  where it takes more than a few seconds to find cover then option 2 would be the best bet, even if you don;t hit anything making a 2 way range rattles the BG and forces them to do more than take aimed fire at you.

Example2: If I was in say a building and came under fire, I would try and get myself to cover ASAP (but be ready to take a few snap shots on the move if a target presented its self)


There are also ROE/Legal things that have to come into play.  From a tactics standpoint volume of fire is always good in breaking an ambush.  However in a shopping mall supressive fire is putting a lot of non involveds at risk



Bottom line firing on the move is a must have skill in my opinion

Do it slow and safe to start then after you get the concepts down try and increase the speed.  With any drill get the concept down first then go for accuracy/speed


*Disclaimer I am not a trainer and there are many more knoweledgable than me on this type of subject
Link Posted: 7/22/2007 7:57:14 AM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
Do not move so fast that you cannot hit your target.

Don't worry if you suck at it.

It is a skill in the toolbox, but its usefullness is debated depending on what you do.

For instance, Paul Howe (of Delta Force) cannot remember shooting on the move in Somolia (Black Hawk Down), but stated that he fired from cover or took also dropped to a knee for quick shots on movers.

No doubt he had trained on it and could do it better than any of us hear, just didn't need the skill.

He was either hauling ass to cover or shooting from a steady position. YMMV




I bet Paul had 3 other guys laying down a shitload of suppressive fire while he was moving, and that Paul layed down a shitload of fire while his team was moving , sadly most of the ARFCOM will never have a fireteam with automatic rifles to assist when the SHTF for them

Bound, know it love it use it.... If you can



Link Posted: 7/22/2007 3:22:11 PM EDT
[#16]
yes good points but again big differance between LEO/MIL /Joe Q
there needs.
Link Posted: 7/22/2007 4:44:25 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
yes good points but again big differance between LEO/MIL /Joe Q
there needs.


Not really, they all need to survive.
Link Posted: 7/22/2007 5:37:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 7/22/2007 8:05:32 PM EDT
[#19]
If you're just a few yards away from someone who is trying to kill you, it makes really good sense to be moving.  It makes even better sense to be able to shoot accurately while you're moving, especially at those ranges.

Going prone when your assailant is almost within contact distance is probably not one of the greatest ideas.

Link Posted: 7/23/2007 1:54:21 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:


Link Posted: 7/23/2007 1:57:03 AM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
If you're just a few yards away from someone who is trying to kill you, it makes really no good sense to be moving.  It makes even better sense to be able to shoot accurately while you're moving, especially at those ranges.

Going prone when your assailant is almost within contact distance is probably not one of the greatest ideas.



If the guy is that close, just shoot him... why move at all?  At that range it's a quick draw.
Link Posted: 7/23/2007 4:56:49 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If you're just a few yards away from someone who is trying to kill you, it makes really no good sense to be moving.  It makes even better sense to be able to shoot accurately while you're moving, especially at those ranges.

Going prone when your assailant is almost within contact distance is probably not one of the greatest ideas.



If the guy is that close, just shoot him... why move at all?  At that range it's a quick draw.


There is more than one corect answer on the two way range, and every single session is different.   To steer the thread abck on track, after all this is a training forum. Shooting on the move is a must  have skill and you also need to train like you would fight:

Example you go to a carbine class geared for LE/.mil well the correct situation in that case would be most likely to move as quickly to cover as possible as you are going to have guy laying down suppressive fire. As a civi you are not going to have supressive fire other than what you provide so it makes a lot of sense to learn to shoot while moving quickly
Link Posted: 7/23/2007 5:25:33 AM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
If you're just a few yards away from someone who is trying to kill you, it makes really no good sense to be moving.  It makes even better sense to be able to shoot accurately while you're moving, especially at those ranges.

Going prone when your assailant is almost within contact distance is probably not one of the greatest ideas.



If the guy is that close, just shoot him... why move at all?  At that range it's a quick draw.


There is more than one corect answer on the two way range, and every single session is different.   To steer the thread abck on track, after all this is a training forum. Shooting on the move is a must  have skill and you also need to train like you would fight:

Example you go to a carbine class geared for LE/.mil well the correct situation in that case would be most likely to move as quickly to cover as possible as you are going to have guy laying down suppressive fire. As a civi you are not going to have supressive fire other than what you provide so it makes a lot of sense to learn to shoot while moving quickly


I agree, check my first post.  

I only disagree with some of the possible solutions to some scenarios that were offered aside from the main point.
Link Posted: 7/23/2007 2:18:11 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
I've never taken a rifle class and was wondering what the recomended speed of movement is when shooting on the move. I've found I can stay on target much better when I slow down to a walk. I also wonder if it would be wiser to not try to shoot but rather just sprint for cover if its availible. I'd like to hear any other ideas anyone has also. Thanks


Different methods are taught by different people, and nobody is in any position to say which is "right" or "best" or which is "wrong" or doesn't work.  

There is no doubt that if you are trying to shoot and move laterally to your adversary at the same time, you will be more accurate at a slow walk.  It is also true that the slower you walk, the less you are moving, and the easier you are to hit.  The faster you move laterally to your adversary, the more difficult you are to hit; but the more difficult it is for you to take an aimed shot.  

At what speed would you be moving so slowly that you would be so easy to hit that you would you be better off abandoning the idea of moving, planting your feet and getting accurate fire down range?  Conversely, at what point would you be moving so quickly that the risk of missing your target (perhaps complicated by the possiblity of your round hitting someone unintended) exceeds the benefits of shooting back at all, and you should just bolt full-bore without shooting back?

When we do movement drills, there is a VERY strong tendancy for people to want to plant thier feet before taking a shot.  This is natural.  It is, after all, difficult to get a sight picture when one is booking along, and every basic course involves lots of talk and practice regarding a "stable shooting platform."  (Some instructors started inserting movement while shooting into Level I courses, to avoid inadvertently training people to stop and plant thier feet before shooting.)  But do we do people a favor if we insist they keep moving while they shoot, if the result is misses?

The facile response will be "learn to be accurate while moving."  It's nice work, if you can get it.  Few people have the time or money to train so much that they can shoot really well while hustling along sideways.

Ultimately, it's a trade-off, and everyone has to work out for himself what he can reasonably expect of himself.  I respectfully submit you will not be in a position to work this out without some instruction on basic marksmanship, gun handling and movement, and supervised practice under the eye of someone who knows what he or she is looking at.

For myself, I have concluded (until experience shows me otherwise) that I am better off shooting OR moving, except:

1)  When advancing or retreating tactically (slow, deliberate, preserving shooting stance); or

2)   Rapidly advancing directly at a target while firing ("groucho walk").  

If I need to move laterally to get away (as distinct from taking a step or two to get "off line" and then firing), I move out briskly and hold my fire.  Otherwise, I find myself missing.  Misses are unacceptable in my circumstances.  

"Get to cover" is obvious.  The question here is not whether to move to cover (assuming cover is available); the question is whether to fire while moving to cover and, if so, how much one can trade off speed in moving for accuracy shooting.

As I said; personally, if it matters whether I get good hits, I am inclinded toward one or the other.  I cannot do both.
Link Posted: 7/27/2007 3:04:54 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A good class is always a good idea, but...........

One thing to remember is that you are shooting on the move.  It is a flowing action of constant motion.  Do not move slow to a pause, shoot, move slow to a pause shoot, over and over.  This is a common mistake for people learning to shoot on the move.  It takes a lot of reps to be smooth, and it is easier once you get smooth.


Missed you this weekend.

Great class.  



Glad you enjoyed it.  Schedules just did not play out right for me that weekend.

Jeremy
Link Posted: 7/29/2007 10:14:47 PM EDT
[#26]
For what it's worth, you'll pretty much always shoot better moving forward/backward than sideways. When you are moving forward/backward, don't try to run (this is only for shooting while moving, I'm not saying don't haul ass to cover...always better). Bend your knees slightly (think shock absorbers), and roll your steps, heel toe. Don't clomp down with each step. Try this dry, without ammo before you try it on a range. Start slow, and when you're doing well with that, speed up as your skill improves. Your sight picture (assuming you have a target) should be without excess movement. It will move a bit, but it should not "bounce". You have to practice at it to find a good rhythm for you.

As for lateral movement, there are a few methods. One is the "cross leg" style, where you cross one leg behind the other. I've never been anywhere that trained this, as you're more likely to trip yourself than anything else. Another way is stepping with the outside leg, then catching up with the inside leg, and repeat. I, personally, don't do well with this, or rather I have an issue with it, as it is pretty slow in the movement department, and why not get on to cover if you're moving that slow. I, personally, tend to adopt a "moving weaver", walking backwards towards where I'm going, presenting sideways to the target. This has a few things wrong with it, depending on the point of view, but I move faster walking backwards, and my shots are more accurate. Where I actually would use this though, at work, I know the layout everywhere, and it's kept up so there's not debris laying around, which would be the only reason I do it. If I didn't know the environment, not a chance in hell. That's just me though, and I get flak every time I'm on the range at work. Another issue with it, though, is that it doesn't present your plates (if you have them). If you don't, it's irrelevant. Anyhow, hope this helps somehow. Cover is always your best friend, but if you have to shoot while you're in the open, go for it. It's a good skill either way. Try to attend a class, but I just wanted to throw this out anyhow. Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/30/2007 4:08:46 AM EDT
[#27]
One thing about moving and shooting, especially moving BACKWARDS.  I don't advise it.  Moving sideways and shooting, as noted above, is slow.  Moving backwards while shooting is very risky.  You can trip, run into something, etc.  

When moving, I always teach that you identify where you are going to before you move, then move to it as fast a possible.  

I would only advise shooting when moving forward in limited scenarios.  Moving backward and shooting is probably not a good idea in real combat.
Link Posted: 7/30/2007 4:56:26 AM EDT
[#28]
It is not an optimal plan but there may be situations that arise that would require it, so therefore it is good to practice. The rifle class I took in Nov had us doing serpentine drills around barrels while firing, firing while walking up and down the line, and firing while being drug around the pit by our collars. You never know when the killshot opportunity will arise, or when you might have to keep heads down, so it makes sense to me to know your limitations when firing from all sorts of positions & activities. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 8/8/2007 6:26:47 PM EDT
[#29]
H&K taught this technique many years ago and has again switched.  We still use it.  Moving into the target I like to roll my feet in a heal toe motion, trying to mimic a tank track with my feet.  In this motion you take the gait out of your step.  In moving away from the target I like to step drag.  If you are right handed the right foot shoots back and feels for obstructions, doors or whatever, then the front foot slides back to meet but does not cross.  Walking backwards is a sure method to end up on your butt.  This method also allows you to feel your way out of a situation without turning from your target to look.  The thing to remember is you can run real quick and you can shoot real accurate but you can't do both at the same time and expect to hit anything.  If it were I, I would stop what I was doing and kill what needed to be killed and move on if at all possible.  Other then that, if I was moving and taking fire from someone static the only thing you can hope to do is make noise, get them to duck, and find cover quick.
Link Posted: 8/11/2007 2:04:37 PM EDT
[#30]
A moving target tends to usually be a harder target to hit. Stoping to duke it out with a person is foolish in my opinion. I drill to shoot moving laterally, forward, backward, etc.  All of them have there place in the grand scheme of things. For me, I do a lot of work on moving reward since this is a situation I am likely to find myself in (fighting my way from a threat during a traffic stop as an example). I also drill moving frward since I could likely find myself doing this while doing a warrant service on a residence.

ETA:

The drag step works decent as a searching manuver, but not well when things start to go sideways.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 3:41:15 PM EDT
[#31]
I feel that moving should be something that you incorporate into the tool box.  You may have to shoot if you're closing with a hostage taker (for instance).  In situations where you're moving back-distance favors a trained individual-you may need to take a shot.  Or lateral movement to be a more dificult target.  Or any directional possibililty of going for cover.

I do feel that sprinting to cover is far more usefull in most cases than slowing down for a shot.

As far as a lack of cover-go Prone?  I can't say I agree with this to a very significant degree.  Prone puts you in a difficult to move into/out of position.  If the bad guy is putting rounds your way, any low rounds will probably skip off the ground and nail you.  Just like hugging walls, rounds tend to follow terrain, etc.  If you've got some distance between you and the bad guy, wouldn't it make sense to GO to cover?
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