Wow.  I still can't believe the experience I had.  Thinking back I wish I would have taken video footage.  Anyway, TDI (Tactical Defense Institute) In SE Ohio came highly recommended and is even linked on Clint Smith's web-site.  I live in N KY and invited my friends from MI (who have both trained with Clint and Scott Reitz) down for a weekend of training.  We took Handgun II.  The lecture was great.  The first drill was decent.  Then we broke into three groups and the INSANITY started...

    My two friends and I were in a group with our instructor John (not Benner) for emergency and tactical reloads.  He made everyone have their weapon checked three times to make sure it was unloaded.  Then he began a lecture that lasted about twenety minutes, during which he fiddled with his gun, holsetring it repeatedly, and DRY FIRING IT AT THE STUDENTS WITH THE SLIDE LOCKED FORWARD!!!  One of my friends hid behind another student.  The instructor asked him to come out from behind the student and my friend said, "I'm just not comfortable with how much you're covering me with your muzzle."  John relpied, "We do that so you will get over your fear of pointing your gun at people."  (!?!?!?!?)  My friend said, "I have no problem pointing my gun at people.  I just don't want YOUR gun pointed at ME!"  John replied, "Well, we check the guns three times; I don't know what more we can do.  That's the way we train and that's why you signed a waiver."

UNBELIEVABLE.

    Then we went to a smooth draw drill where ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR repeatedly drew and holstered his weapon, POINTING IT AT STUDENTS.  When this instructor LAUGHED while telling a story of an AD at a previous class, we decided we'd had enough.  We complained to John Benner, the founder of TDI and he stood by his instructors, saying we were the FIRST students to complain about this policy of COVERING PEOPLE WITH YOUR MUZZLE DURING TRAINING.  On the way out, we saw the third drill (which we didn't participate in because we left early) which was malfuction clearing.  THE INSTRUCTORS AND STUDENTS WERE STANDING IN A CIRCLE, TAPPING AND RACKING AT EACH OTHER!!!  I really kick myself for not getting video of this one.  

    Ity's one thing for the instructors to cover their students with their muzzle, EVEN WHEN THE DRILLS DIDN'T CALL FOR IT.  But they were creating this value in their students.  How many TDI students are at home showing their buddies what they learned, all the while pointing their guns at people.  This just blows my mind.  Not to mention the CHAOTIC atmosphere of the classes themselves.  There was so much going on and so many students, the guy next to me didn't know which way was up, let alone which of his magazines was unloaded.  I'm ASTONISHED that no one has been killed at TDI yet.  

    Thoughts?  Am I crazy for thinking this is a BAD thing?

You did fine.

You did the right thing.

Don't get me wrong, the facility was top-notch and all the instructors had great military/law enforcement  credentials (one of them was David Bowie of Bowie tactical).  But ALL the instructors PRACTICED and ENCOURAGED covering people with your muzzle while training.  It was like I was in another dimension where everyone was one crazy pills.  At least the smooth draw drills could have been done with dummy guns.  But these were REAL guns that had merely been 'checked' to make sure they were unloaded.  Made me physically ishy in the gut.  And, again, the atmosphere was confusing and disorganized.  I've never trained with Clint, but my friend said he was going to request that CLint remove TDI from the Thunder Ranch site...seeing as Clint actually believes in handling firearms respectfully.  I just don't see the benefit of training in this manner.  When is it NECESSARY to point your weapon at someone during training?  Certainly not during reload, smooth draw, and malfunction clearing drills.

good job

Wow.

I don't care if you quadruple check your weapon, it is not ok to dry fire it on another person.  That's why we have dummy guns.

I was trying to decide where to sign up for a course, and TDI was on the short list.

Not good.

Never point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy.

I've never attended TDI so I can't speak for their instructors, however I have received similar training. If the firearms are checked, checked and rechecked then yes we have used real firearms for training, weapons retention and dry fireing at other humans. I'm not going to join into some huge debate on this, just stating my personal feelings, just like you did.

You didn't like it? Then you made the right choice to leave, those who did not, well, just like me, they choose to train in that manner.

Quoted: I've never attended TDI so I can't speak for their instructors, however I have received similar training. If the firearms are checked, checked and rechecked then yes we have used real firearms for training, weapons retention and dry fireing at other humans. I'm not going to join into some huge debate on this, just stating my personal feelings, just like you did. You didn't like it? Then you made the right choice to leave, those who did not, well, just like me, they choose to train in that manner.

Screw that! I'm not gonna want to train with other guys pointing their weapons at me,especially since many don't have much trigger time to begin with(I'm not talking about the trainers,I mean the students). That just reinforces poor muzzle discipline.

I lean towards the OP on this one.

There's a reason why "red guns" and "blue guns" are made and used.  There's a reason why specifically-marked LL shotguns (usually with orange stock and hardware) are used.  There's a reason why dedicated simunitions guns are used (that cannot fire real ammo)... because even elite teams have had ADs/NDs occur in training, leading to officer deaths.

OP, you're not the only one who would object to having a functional weapon pointed at you.

It's a fair objection... and one that MANY actual BTDT types could understand.

Although I would like to hear one of the instructors explain what they thought they were doing, I think the only mistake you made was putting up with it beyond the first instance.  Leaving right now is one of only two rational responses to that sort of nonsense.

The other rational response is to point back.  However, for reasons of safety, I think leaving is the better option.  One either believes in Rule No. 2, or they do not.  I am not aware of any valid exceptions to that Rule.

A well known instructor I trained under would occasionally, when covered with another person's weapon, to draw his own and point back.  At the time I thought that was too extreme, especially when dealing with students.  Since then, I'm starting to come around to his way of thinking, at least in some circumstances.  

If someone purporting to train students to defend themselves with - or from - firearms wants to acclimate the students to having a gun pointed at them, it seems to me they should also be encouraging the student to immediately move and point back.  I don't suppose that was part of the curriculm.

(Why one should become acclimated to being on the muzzle end of a gun is another question.)

I don't care how many places one has been or how much stuff one has done, there is still no substitute for common sense.

I am also astounded at the mentality of students who would remain in that situation.  Man, the power of authority figures ...

THANK YOU, OP!

I live in the Cinci area and was considering taking several courses there.  I was unsure of the caliber of instruction at first but unless I'm told otherwise (and I may just call to see), I too would not appreciate being swept by a class full of novices with firearms.  

I see it as good, safe practicing at the range, at home, or while training - there's no need to have ammo, guns and a cavalier attitude towards muzzle discipline all in the same place.

I am still looking for reasonably close instruction, perhaps I'll spend my money at Point Blank instead...

John Wayne777-

    I completely understand your skepticism.  For what it's worth, I'm happy to post my personal information.  I'm a public figure anyway and have nothing to hide.  My name is Ashley Peacock and I am a pastor on staff at Vineyard Christian Church in Florence, KY.  You can call our office at 859.689.0777 and ask for me, or interview my co-workers for a character reference.  If you'd like to talk to me personally, again, feel free to call the office or just call my cell phone at 513.807.9155.  Here's my personal MySpace, too, FWIW: http://www.myspace.com/ashley___peacock

    I have only been a gun owner since January, and went to TDI to learn more about how to properly handle the responsibility that I commited to when I slapped down my cash for a G21.  So my novice status would account for my being a 'newbie' here on AR15.com.  If you want to know more about me or my experience, just ask.  As I mentioned in the original post, there were two friends who went with me from MI who would love to talk about it as well...one is an aquaintance of Clint Smith (he actually bought Heidi's Les Baer AR from her).  Their names are Zac and Caitlin.  Caitlin had the pleasure of our first instructor's gun being dry fired at her head several times as she stood directly in front of him.

    Also, just call John Benner at TDI.  He's a really nice guy and he listened to our complaint with humility and patience...he just flatly disagreed with us and stood by his training methods.

When I took classes by Argive Defense Systems, we stand with slide locked back, 2 instructors check the chaimber, 1 inserts a piece of yellow nylon rope and tells you to drop the slide forward. The rope is now in your barrel and keeping action 1/2 open and about 3" is sticking out. If you remove the yellow rope during non firing portion you're going home.

Then we did some work where yes other people were covered with the gun, mostly the instructor and the bag guy during bag/striking drills.

It felt OK with inoperable action and when you see the yellow rope sticking out etc. It would NOT be fine with merely checked weapons. You did the right thing in going home.

Quoted: I lean towards the OP on this one. There's a reason why "red guns" and "blue guns" are made and used.  There's a reason why specifically-marked LL shotguns (usually with orange stock and hardware) are used.  There's a reason why dedicated simunitions guns are used (that cannot fire real ammo)... because even elite teams have had ADs/NDs occur in training, leading to officer deaths. OP, you're not the only one who would object to having a functional weapon pointed at you. It's a fair objection... and one that MANY actual BTDT types could understand.

Heck, for $12/per everyone in the class could have one of these

Um..........I've been trained in a similar fashion since the police academy. No incidents since 1996.


No live rounds on range or in class. All weapons & mags checked. Instructors provide their weapons to students for inspection.

What's the problem.


Bullets are not going to "magic" their way into the equasion w/out someone putting them there.

So I take it you would not hold a target and let another shooter shoot it?

This is part of the advanced shooter training, you have to know what it sounds like to get shot at.

You were at an advanced shooter training, you were getting advanced shooter education.  Man up.

Quoted: Bullets are not going to "magic" their way into the equasion w/out someone putting them there.

No, bullets won't "magically" find their way in there - but people are imperfect.  Sometimes naive people do stupid things, or think they're above the rules.  You wouldn't think a "highly trained professional" would fark with a chambered weapon in a room full of grade schoolers and wind up ND-ing a round into his thigh - but it happened.  

Pointing guns at peoples' heads and pulling the trigger is a cavalier, ignorant and INHO negative training aid.   There is NO situation or purpose that I can fathom where I would "adjust" to the thought of someone pointing a weapon at me.  I cannot imagine how that would be effective in training with dozens of people you don't know - given the availability and low cost of "blue" guns or action blocks as noted - it's low class and asking for accidents.

It is just not worth the risk, or the risk of bad PR when CNN gets ahold of the videos....  

I took a class there last weekend and 3 classes there about 8 years ago.  I didn't see anything unsafe at any of these classes.  Before any demostration with any weapon it is checked by 3 or more people.  With three posts, you look a lot like a troll trying to bad mouth a very good training outfit.  

    Yes, that's exactly what I said.  The instructors checked all weapons three times before 'demonstrating' with them.  I wasn't bad mouthing anybody, just REPORTING WHAT HAPPENED.  Apparently some people thinnk this is an acceptable way to train.  I'm a new shooter and trying to soak up as much as I can, but this just makes me ill.  Call me what you like: wuss, troll, whatever.  And, yes, I AM a 'Johnny Come Lately'...but at least I came.  

Here's the deal...there are TWO possible scenarios here:

Scenario one: I'M LYING - Say for one reason or another I'm trying to give John and TDI a hard time.  Why would I want a bunch of military and police officers with connections to be pissed at me?

Scenario two: I'M TELLING THE TRUTH - I'm a new shooter trying to learn properly and saw something that disturbed me.  I'm reporting it here to get your thoughts and possibly warn others about unsafe practices.

CONCLUSION: This is a win win for everyone...INCLUDING TDI.  If I'm lying, and they DON'T point their muzzle at people, then I get found out and they keep teaching quality technique like they've apparently done for years.  If I'm telling the truth, hopefully people will find out and they'll come to their senses and start teaching in a safe manner, thus improving their training methods and becoming an even BETTER facility.  Either way, hopefully they'll get a few more folks going out there to see what the heck is going on, which increases business anyway.  BUT DO ME A FAVOR:  IF YOU DO GO TO TDI AND SEE THE INSANITY THAT I SAW, PLEASE GET A VIDEO OF IT ON YOUR CELL PHONE AND POST IT.  I was standing right there in front of the tap and rack 'circle' (lead by David Bowie) with my phone in my pocket and I didn't think to get the madness on video.

I don't know, I think some people are too paranoid.

I'm sorry. But I don't believe that an "instructor" is going to verify that a weapon is empty in front of a class and then "slight hand" and loaded magazine into it.

Like I said, training acadamies all across this country have the same type of training and I don't hear of too many accidents. In fact, no accidents.

I think you are being a little paranoid. I know you are never supposed to point a loaded weapon at anyone but let us be reasonable.

    I see your point.  And, again, I'm sure ALL of you here are FAR more experienced than me.  So I'm open to learning and changing my mind.   But this fact remains...

    THERE WAS NO REASON TO POINT WEAPONS AT ANYONE.  We were doing emergency/tactical reloads, malfunction clearing, and smooth draw.  In each of these drills instructors AND students were pointing their weapons at each other UNNECCESSARILY.  The instructors would sweep students with their muzzles as they were talking, like it was part of a hand gesture, completely unrelated to even the drill at hand.  The sickening part was when John (not Benner) pointed his gun at my friend Caitlin's HEAD and DRY FIRED WITH THE SLIDE LOCKED FORWARD.

    And, yes, there have been ADs at TDI.  In the original post I mentioned we left when the smooth draw instructor recounted a story of an AD in class where a man was shot.  And, also, the instructor of the first drill told us a story of an AD, laughing, "Good thing it happened to be down range."  This was before he dry fired at Caitlin's head.

 

Quoted: I really hope that the instructors for this class (who now know of this threads' existence) will come here and tell their side of the story.

We're all hoping for this.

Quoted: I don't know, I think some people are too paranoid. I'm sorry. But I don't believe that an "instructor" is going to verify that a weapon is empty in front of a class and then "slight hand" and loaded magazine into it. Like I said, training acadamies all across this country have the same type of training and I don't hear of too many accidents. In fact, no accidents. I think you are being a little paranoid. I know you are never supposed to point a loaded weapon at anyone but let us be reasonable.

Check this link..  Page down to "Deputy William D. Bowman."

SWAT officer.  Killed in the line of duty in a training accident, when live ammo was inadvertently brought into a "no ammo" training exercise.

ETA: and lest anyone thing this is a purely American phenomenon, here is a story of a British officer being killed by a breaching round fired through a supposedly cleared LL shotgun.

Never apologize for having a safety focus... never.

ETA2:  If you have a copy of "Training at the Speed of Life," read the first 8-9 pages of the book... the chapter entitled "The Body Count."  You'll find a list of officers, TEMS operators, and role players killed during training by uncleared weapons, in supposedly "safe" training environments.

I'm very uneasy about taking newbie, green trainees who are just starting to undergo "advanced training" and having them point actual weapons at one another... but maybe I just have too much sphincter tone.  Reasonable people can disagree, but I think the OP has a valid concern.

Quoted: *Snip* I think the OP has a valid concern.

So do I. For the reasons above. With all the unavoidable risks out there, why create more unnessarily?

Quoted: Quoted: I don't know, I think some people are too paranoid. I'm sorry. But I don't believe that an "instructor" is going to verify that a weapon is empty in front of a class and then "slight hand" and loaded magazine into it. Like I said, training acadamies all across this country have the same type of training and I don't hear of too many accidents. In fact, no accidents. I think you are being a little paranoid. I know you are never supposed to point a loaded weapon at anyone but let us be reasonable. Out of curiosity I would like to know which 'academies all across the country' do this? I can say that I have been training cops for several decades and have never seen it done in this manner. Now using guns that have been 'safed' as mentioned earlier with the yellow rope, or by using an inert barrel insert, etc. is different, although red or blue trainers are better still. I have taken instruction from several shooting schools and if one ever told me to stand downrange and hold a target while someone else fired live ammo at it I would leave...period. I can tell you for sure at the Academy I teach at, the only trainers who ever tried that stunt were sent packing PDQ as soon as it became known...the class was disbarred from using the ranges and told to find somewhere else to train...they are not welcome back. There have been several deaths and more injuries from this typw traning over the years, and I guarantee you there will be more if it is going on as much as you indicate. I don't care if 30 instructors check the gun...shit happens. As to the school in question, the reports here seem to be mixed, and while I know Benner I have never trained with him, so I will withold judgement.

It was a Ken Hackathorn drill, real deal.  It was handgun level 2 or 3 don't really remember.

So I guess soldiers never advance with covering fire behind them either.

Guys it is called advanced training, you train like you fight.  You don't ever get to see a real man in you sight picture, you are not training properly.  I guarantee you, you will never be assaulted  by a paper silhouette.

NoHarmNoFAL - are you associated in any way with any of those involved?

Quoted: NoHarmNoFAL - are you associated in any way with any of those involved?

Nope, I just know of what goes on in some of the high level training classes.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm very uneasy about taking newbie, green trainees who are just starting to undergo "advanced training" and having them point actual weapons at one another... but maybe I just have too much sphincter tone. I'm with you there. I've done things like retention training and the like with real weapons, but it's always been on a dedicated cold area....meaning everybody got their weapons checked by the instructor and the AI's and at least two other studets. Nobody was allowed to have live ammo in that area. No loaded mags on your belt, no ammo in your pocket, nothing. THAT is a safe practice.

OK, I will go with you on the fact there probably should not have been mags in the guns and I would even think that there should be dummy barrels in there too but these drills serve a purpose.  I also agree that only people who know what they are doing should be doing this stuff.

Now, if the instructor was just sweeping and pointing to show that he was the biggest swinging dick in the room, I would be pissed too.

Joe Six-Pack who thinks the sound of an 870 jacking a round into the chamber is a good defense should definitely NOT be involved.

I know for a fact that Ken does a drill where he shoot a paper plate that someone is holding.

Quoted: Quoted: NoHarmNoFAL - are you associated in any way with any of those involved? Nope, I just know of what goes on in some of the high level training classes.

And I have seen that done in training, and have done it myself.  

I'm not trying to be a hypocrite, and I'm not completely painting the practice as a tool of Satan, but all such classes where that was done were advanced LE/.mil training.  The participants were all active SWAT operators, or military Spec-ops types... guys with years of experience and training; no newbies.  Safety was lived/breathed/preached, and even with all that, I was frankly so uncomfortable with the idea of pointing a "real" weapon at another officer and pulling the trigger that I found myself unconsciously press-checking my pistol for an empty chamber... I must have done that a dozen times or more before I realized I was doing it, and had to consciously stop myself.

It was actually a little weird... like an automatism.  Talk about ingrained habits.

The incident the OP discussed apparently happened in Handgun II.  A one-day course where you learn "high level" stuff like basic drawing from the holster and malfunction-clearing.  I don't know if Handgun I is the only prerequisite, but that's also a one-day course, where you only fire 150 rounds, and learn basics like sight picture and weapon handling.

It's not my call, not my course, and not my range... so my opinion isn't really important here.  That said, I can certainly understand some individuals being a little uncomfortable with trainees of that experience level dry-firing functional weapons at one another.

In short, I can see there from here.

I was in a defensive handgun class a few weeks ago. There was a handgun carry permit class in the next bay, ran by one of the instructors here in Nashville that the press goes to anytime there is something in the news concerning handgun carry laws.
He had 20 to 40 people in class at once. I glanced over there several times during our lunch break and saw the ENTIRE CLASS pointing their handguns at him dry firing. He does this so he can see trigger manipulation, sight picture, etc.
I fell out laughing. My instructor asked me what was so funny. I pointed over to the firing squad over there ans asked him if we were going to cover THAT in our class. he said only if we wanted him to kick our ass in front of everyone else :-)

I keep waiting to hear about some student dropping his ass on the firing line. I don't care how many times a weapon is checked. If it is out of my direct control for more than a second...I treat it as a loaded gun until I check it again.
It would be too easy for someone in that situation (30 students) to "accidentally" load a round.

Quoted: You don't ever get to see a real man in you sight picture, you are not training properly. I disagree STRONGLY with that statement.

Actually I bet you don't, but you are locked into the discussion.

I would bet that you see the value of Force on Force training with Simms, UTM, or even airsoft. I've taken a couple and been used as an actor in a couple classes, and there is no substitute. In general it it probably the first and only time most people will put sights on a real person and pull the trigger.


We are talking about somehting different in this thread though, and I know what you are saying.

Quoted: Quoted: I know for a fact that Ken does a drill where he shoot a paper plate that someone is holding. Recognize that for what it is ........ a gimmick.

Not hardly, you better know how to think and keep your stuff together when there is someone else shooting at you, otherwise you are a target.

There seems to be a lot of NRA rules only, paper punchers in this thread.  If you are going to train to kill someone, you darn well better know what it is going look like, feel like and sound like.  Otherwise, are just punching paper.  If you don't want to train at this level, don't.

If the OP was uncomfortable, he was dangerous and should have left.  I am by no means saying that this type of training is for everyone but those that have a clue can learn lots from it.

I am no gunslinger but I have done some practice drills that would make an RO drop a golden brick and get kicked off any public ranges.  I learned a lot though.

I have only seen real guns pointed at people once in a training environment. That was a police sniper course.

The bolts were removed from the rifles and locked away in the instructor's vehicle. Nylon ties were then run through the actions. The officers were then allowed to take positions and watch actors through their scopes in various scenarios.

The drill was to get the snipers accustomed to watching and tracking real people doing real activities. There was no dry firing at the actors or anything like that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know for a fact that Ken does a drill where he shoot a paper plate that someone is holding. Recognize that for what it is ........ a gimmick. Not hardly, you better know how to think and keep your stuff together when there is someone else shooting at you, otherwise you are a target. There seems to be a lot of NRA rules only, paper punchers in this thread.  If you are going to train to kill someone, you darn well better know what it is going look like, feel like and sound like.  Otherwise, are just punching paper.  If you don't want to train at this level, don't. If the OP was uncomfortable, he was dangerous and should have left.  I am by no means saying that this type of training is for everyone but those that have a clue can learn lots from it. I am no gunslinger but I have done some practice drills that would make an RO drop a golden brick and get kicked off any public ranges.  I learned a lot though.

You are really taking your bad-assedness too far in this. Training has changed a lot in the last 10 years and I'm sure that anyone that has taken a class recently has done something that would have freaked people out 10 years ago. Team movement drills, stack drills, shooting from cars, etc.

I have pulled the trigger with people down range from me, and been down range with others shooting, but only in the NRA 180* rule sense of down range, at no time was I pointing a gun in someones direction or them at me.

In more advanced stuff like the TR HRCC class the lines became even a little more blurred, because you are right that higher level training does see the rules relax a bit.

Still, this is something completely unnecessary, there was never a need to point a gun at someone in anything they were doing, and the idea that they were doing it to get people used to having guns pointed at them or pointing guns at people is fucking stupid. They make Force on Force / Scenerio training for that, people are searched for any and all weapons or ammo before hand and simmunitions/utm/airsoft is used.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know for a fact that Ken does a drill where he shoot a paper plate that someone is holding. Recognize that for what it is ........ a gimmick. Not hardly, you better know how to think and keep your stuff together when there is someone else shooting at you, otherwise you are a target. There seems to be a lot of NRA rules only, paper punchers in this thread.  If you are going to train to kill someone, you darn well better know what it is going look like, feel like and sound like.  Otherwise, are just punching paper.  If you don't want to train at this level, don't. If the OP was uncomfortable, he was dangerous and should have left.  I am by no means saying that this type of training is for everyone but those that have a clue can learn lots from it. I am no gunslinger but I have done some practice drills that would make an RO drop a golden brick and get kicked off any public ranges.  I learned a lot though.

Hmmm...

Multiple participants in this thread have done RBT/force-on-force training (including myself)... and professionally at that.  Let's not wander too far OT into the e-penis measuring realm... The OP was relating a training situation in a very basic-level handgun course, and I think there's a legitimate argument to be made that the referenced activity is pushing the safety envelope for that specific level of training.

It doesn't really matter... this is an academic discussion.  It's not any of our gigs, nor any of our collective or individual responsibilities to tell TDI how to take care of business.  I think, however, that intimating sour-grapes motives to the naysayers, or painting the caution-flag-fliers as nothing but a bunch of NRA-bullseye, paper-punching-tactical-wanna-bes is a little specious.  

You have multiple individuals who have run the training gamut, who all seem to think this is potentially problematic.  That is not a coincidence.

If you have a copy of "Training at the Speed of Life" (mine is the 2004 edition, and is sitting at my left elbow), start reading at around page 132, and prepare to spend a while digesting the next 70 pages.  That entire section deals extensively with these issues.

Wow . . . .