After about 2 months of waiting I finally got the call from the Tioga county sheriff for me to go pick up my transfered Pistol Permit thankfully unrestricted.  I originally had my permit in Greene County which was full carry unrestricted and was afraid the Tioga would restrict it to range and hunting only when I went through the transfer process due to some things I heard from locals I work with.  It is so frustrating to have my right to defend myself decided by some judge on a whim.  Well kind of a rant but I am just happy to keep my carry legal

Anyone else had any troubles transfering counties?

Quoted: After about 2 months of waiting I finally got the call from the Tioga county sheriff for me to go pick up my transfered Pistol Permit thankfully unrestricted.  I originally had my permit in Greene County which was full carry unrestricted and was afraid the Tioga would restrict it to range and hunting only when I went through the transfer process due to some things I heard from locals I work with.  It is so frustrating to have my right to defend myself decided by some judge on a whim.  Well kind of a rant but I am just happy to keep my carry legal Anyone else had any troubles transfering counties?

carrying outside a restriction isnt illegal.

toss a .22 and some targets/ammo in your trunk.

im always on my way to or from the range...duh

I held off on transfering mine to erie from chautauqua
I finally had to and it transfered restriction free
the chautauqua county clerk said she thought they always transfer with the same restrictions, or lack there of, as how they currently were in the original county.
I don't know for sure, I'm just glad mine didn't change
I did notice that erie has a line on the card for restrictions (in my case it has the word "none" typed in). Chautauqua's doesn't even have a line for it, but it's rural there and pretty much shall issue

Quoted: Dieter, understand that the issuance of a permit is an administrative function and largely at the whim of the judge.  A police officer can not arrest you for carrying outside your restrictions and he or she may refer it to the judge.  Your excuse that you were on your way to the range may or may not pass muster.  Unless you are a member of a 24 hour indoor pistol range, you won't even stand a chance with that excuse depending on the time of day.  Once before a judge, they can revoke or suspend your permit pretty much at whim.  You can article 78, but chances are you WILL lose and it will cost you a good deal of money to lose. The fact is the restrictions legally mean nothing.  They do however have a very real effect in that they can be the basis for a judge to take action.  You are playing a game of roulette.  While I certainly would never tell you what to do with your life, and certainly agree with the sentiment that you are expressing, I once again find your advice to be lacking and in total disregard for the real world ramifications of following it.  I would advise against trying to go this route. I'm just curious, you carry against restrictions and go to say the movies.  Many theatres in the capital region hire off duty officers to act as security.  Somebody sees a suspicious bulge under your shirt and tells security.  They approach you and ask, and you inform them you have a permit.  They run the permit and it is valid, though they note your's is restricted... and you comeback with... "I just came bacl/am going from/to the range."  How well do you think that will work for you? You don't just have to worry about interacting with law enforcement at a traffic stop, where the excuse MIGHT work... There are any number of instances where day to day life could expose you.  Hell I was carrying beneath my jacket and under a sweater last fall.  No print whatsoever, but I happened to back into a guy in line at Stewart's and he felt the pistol brush his hand.  Completely inadvertent.  He pulled out his shield and identified himself and asked if he could speak with me for a second.  He asked if I had a firearm and I responded that I did have my licensed pistol on my back right hip.  He asked to see my permit, which I keep in my shirt pocket.  I produced it, he examined it... we were cool.  Just goes to show things can happen anywhere at any time.  Had I possessed a restricted permit, he would have been within his rights to report it to the judge. Like I said, I would not consider pulling the range ploy... you don't think every cop and judge in the state knows of it?

they COULD report you to the judge...

thing is, many LEOs dont even know the different types of restrictions/permits anyhow.  even those who DO know the difference, from who i have spoken to, dont give a crap if its restricted or not, as long as your not an ass or doing something thats just wrong.

the LEO has to really be hellbent and driven to take his time to do the paperwork to report a law abiding citizen who on a traffic stop has a LICENSED pistol and a permit that clearly reads "permit to carry concealed pistol" with the small size 2 font at the top "Hunting/Target" with no clear written restrictions on it aside from not being able to goto NYC with it.

If you are upstanding (which you should be, having a permit and all), and not up to no good, you should be fine.  

i went to my sheriffs office in Saratoga, and asked the clerks there for some information on the "restrictions" on our permits, they looked at me with a blank look and said they couldn't help me.  Sorry but if those who issue the permits wont give info on them, and nothing is clearly stated aside from  "permit to carry concealed pistol", "hunting/target" at the top, and on the backside stating that the thing is no good in NYC...then oh well.  Its bad enough the judge already had launched an inquiry to me for simply buying a "quantity" of pistols quickly, and put a hold on two other guns which were sitting at the shop already paid off and waiting to be picked up...until i wrote him a letter explaining to him where pistols are stored, why i need so many, why buying so many so quickly, etc.  I am already being treated like I am a gun runner soooo.....yeah.

also as for accidentally printing...hell if you print and get reported, your permit will be yanked regardless if you have restrictions on it or not, thats breaking the law.  not worried so much about that.  dress appropriately and get a good holster.  learn to carry the pistol so its not noticeable.

oh...and yes, my range is open 24/7 for access, though shooting hours is until dark.  Who is to say i went there earlier in the day and didnt stop home yet?

also what if you transport a pistol to a friends house, stop at a gas station or whatever, your NOT supposed to leave gun in the car, so then carry it on your person.  

theres a billion ways to circumvent the ridiculous administrative restriction.  YES i tried the  official way to remove it...I stated that my job would warrant the restriction lifted, being I transport LARGE quantities of some potentially very dangerous firearms.  Judge said that wasnt reason enough.  Hmmm, what local politicians do i know, maybe that will work better?

oh heres a copy of my permit...look at how it is written out.... on the backside it just mentions under "restrictions" about NYC being a no-go.  Thats it.

and then below a copy of that letter the judge sent me...real nice right?  

height=8

Quoted: Dieter, understand that the issuance of a permit is an administrative function and largely at the whim of the judge.  A police officer can not arrest you for carrying outside your restrictions and he or she may refer it to the judge.  Your excuse that you were on your way to the range may or may not pass muster.  Unless you are a member of a 24 hour indoor pistol range, you won't even stand a chance with that excuse depending on the time of day.  Once before a judge, they can revoke or suspend your permit pretty much at whim.  You can article 78, but chances are you WILL lose and it will cost you a good deal of money to lose. The fact is the restrictions legally mean nothing.  They do however have a very real effect in that they can be the basis for a judge to take action.  You are playing a game of roulette.  While I certainly would never tell you what to do with your life, and certainly agree with the sentiment that you are expressing, I once again find your advice to be lacking and in total disregard for the real world ramifications of following it.  I would advise against trying to go this route. snip

 Can you tell me where you learned this ?  I am not doubting your
knowledge I just have alot of people ask me questions concerning concealed carry and I would like to have the actual legal reference to work off.  

Great info though.  I never knew that people who carried outside of restrictions were not breaking the "law" per say

Quoted: Quoted: Dieter, understand that the issuance of a permit is an administrative function and largely at the whim of the judge.  A police officer can not arrest you for carrying outside your restrictions and he or she may refer it to the judge.  Your excuse that you were on your way to the range may or may not pass muster.  Unless you are a member of a 24 hour indoor pistol range, you won't even stand a chance with that excuse depending on the time of day.  Once before a judge, they can revoke or suspend your permit pretty much at whim.  You can article 78, but chances are you WILL lose and it will cost you a good deal of money to lose. The fact is the restrictions legally mean nothing.  They do however have a very real effect in that they can be the basis for a judge to take action.  You are playing a game of roulette.  While I certainly would never tell you what to do with your life, and certainly agree with the sentiment that you are expressing, I once again find your advice to be lacking and in total disregard for the real world ramifications of following it.  I would advise against trying to go this route. snip  Can you tell me where you learned this ?  I am not doubting your knowledge I just have alot of people ask me questions concerning concealed carry and I would like to have the actual legal reference to work off.   Great info though.  I never knew that people who carried outside of restrictions were not breaking the "law" per say

all i would say is..

-drive the speed limit
-get a good holster and learn to carry properly
-dont put yourself in a poor situation to begin with

in my head, this is what i am thinking..

either disreguard/skirt a rediculous judge's order which has zero legal ramifications aside from MAYBE my permit being yanked....or be without a means to defend myself.

goes back to, would you rather be carried by 6 or judged by 12.  Not even breaking the law in carrying outside restrictions, just disobeying the judge.

i DO goto the range at weird hours, and not return immediatly after going..nor do i do a direct route there always.  Ive got a .22LR in my trunk, some targets (some shot up), .22LR ammo, 9mm ammo, hearing protection, eye protection, my range user card/ID card, and my range electronic access card.

prove that im going to the range if i stop for ice cream with a friend?  ive got a trunk full of stuff that says im going to the range.  Prove that I am NOT going to the range, thats impossible.

I'm in Tompkins...if you need someone to shoot with, feel free to drop me an IM.

Quoted: also as for accidentally printing...hell if you print and get reported, your permit will be yanked regardless if you have restrictions on it or not, thats breaking the law.

are you sure about this?




this is without a doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life...why oh why do they give a rat's ass how many handguns you own.

i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dieter122/Matt2t.jpg

Quoted: [ this is without a doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life...why oh why do they give a rat's ass how many handguns you own. i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dieter122/Matt2t.jpg

The judges aren't alone. There was a local burg/ home invasion today:

www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070814/NEWS01/70814007

Note the little blurb at the bottom and then the comment in the local forums section from Dogpedal:


forums.theithacajournal.com/viewtopic.php?t=6983

height=8

Quoted: *snip* this is without a doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life...why oh why do they give a rat's ass how many handguns you own. height=8 i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dieter122/Matt2t.jpg

There has to be some legal recourse for that.  Isn't the whole purpose of the permit application and issuance to insure that the individual is deemed "fit" to own firearms?  Why should a judge be able to limit the amount of handguns you purchase?  If you have the means to purchase it and have a permit why should the judge care?  Do these Judges really have that much free time to waste counting handgun purchases?  They should spend more time hearing criminal cases and less time hasseling legal gun owners  

Quoted: Quoted: also as for accidentally printing...hell if you print and get reported, your permit will be yanked regardless if you have restrictions on it or not, thats breaking the law. are you sure about this? this is without a doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life...why oh why do they give a rat's ass how many handguns you own. i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dieter122/Matt2t.jpg

yep, printing in public in NYS even with a unrestricted permit is enough to have your permit yanked.  They warned us about it in my pistol safety course when I took it.

they give a rats ass about how many pistols I own cause...I might be selling my junker pistols like my two USPs to gang bangers or drug lords obviously.  OHHH NO, two of the same gun! I am up to 13 pistols now...I waste no time in buying.

Quoted: Quoted: [ this is without a doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life...why oh why do they give a rat's ass how many handguns you own. i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dieter122/Matt2t.jpg The judges aren't alone. There was a local burg/ home invasion today: www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070814/NEWS01/70814007 Note the little blurb at the bottom and then the comment in the local forums section from Dogpedal: forums.theithacajournal.com/viewtopic.php?t=6983

yep, its ridiculous alright....  if the judge is worried about a few pistols, my god...he must have no idea about all the AKs ive got

Ohhh no, the EBRssssss are coming for the childrenssss

Quoted: Quoted: *snip* this is without a doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life...why oh why do they give a rat's ass how many handguns you own. i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dieter122/Matt2t.jpg There has to be some legal recourse for that.  Isn't the whole purpose of the permit application and issuance to insure that the individual is deemed "fit" to own firearms?  Why should a judge be able to limit the amount of handguns you purchase?  If you have the means to purchase it and have a permit why should the judge care?  Do these Judges really have that much free time to waste counting handgun purchases?  They should spend more time hearing criminal cases and less time hasseling legal gun owners

Yep, I was fuming when I got this letter.  Being away at college (senior year), my parents got the letter in the mail box.  They had no idea what to think, they were waiting for a knock on the door from the police or alphabet boys.

I did contact the NRA about how the judge put a hold on issuing purchase coupons for my pistols which were already paid for and sitting at the local shop near my college...got no reply.  Some use they are.   Sorry, but what happened was borderline criminal in my mind.

height=8

Quoted: snip I did contact the NRA about how the judge put a hold on issuing purchase coupons for my pistols which were already paid for and sitting at the local shop near my college...got no reply.  Some use they are.   Sorry, but what happened was borderline criminal in my mind.

Sometimes I think that the NRA sees us as a lost cause.  They can make more money and political hay in established progun states than trying to save the suckers behind the lines.  Sure they help with the Sportsman stuff but thats as far as they are willing to go.

Quoted: A police officer can not arrest you for carrying outside your restrictions...

I would have to disagree with this. The officer involved may not know that, and it will surely ruin your day until things get straightened out. With guns involved they're more likely to err on the side of safety and again it will ruin your day at best.


"If you are upstanding (which you should be, having a permit and all), and not up to no good, you should be fine."

"Should"s aren't very comforting.

What would expect the NRA to do? Call up the judge and say you can't do that? NY's highest court has repeatably stated that you have no individual right to possess a firearm in NYS.

Quoted: Quoted: A police officer can not arrest you for carrying outside your restrictions... I would have to disagree with this. The officer involved may not know that, and it will surely ruin your day until things get straightened out. With guns involved they're more likely to err on the side of safety and again it will ruin your day at best.

What section of the PL would he/she charge you with violating?  The NYSP Legal Division issued a memo years ago that Troopers and Police Officers in NYS are not to make an arrest if the subject has a valid NYS pistol license and has not committed any other criminal offense such as menacing etc.

Quoted: What would expect the NRA to do? Call up the judge and say you can't do that? NY's highest court has repeatably stated that you have no individual right to possess a firearm in NYS.

to possess a firearm in NYS..right..

look at DC now, even thats changed.

I dont see how they could eliminate the notion of the 2nd alltogether, thats not feasible I dont believe.

maybe to carry a firearm, but simply possess/own, is a different deal.

and id of expected the NRA to at least send me a reply of some sort...instead all I get is reminders that my membership is about to expire.  They NEVER fail to remember to send me THOSE messages.  

I have absolutely no doubt that my judge would pull my permit with a smile on his face if I carried outside my restrictions and got caught.

Not only that, he would probably grieve me to the local bar.  "Conduct prejudicial to the administration of justice" or something like that.

When I appealed my restrictions, I produced police reports detailing violence committed against my clients by their spouses, ex's, etc.

He sent back a letter telling me that those were threats against my client and not me, and therefore I had no need for a carry permit.

Quoted: Quoted: What would expect the NRA to do? Call up the judge and say you can't do that? NY's highest court has repeatably stated that you have no individual right to possess a firearm in NYS. to possess a firearm in NYS..right.. look at DC now, even thats changed. I dont see how they could eliminate the notion of the 2nd alltogether, thats not feasible I dont believe. maybe to carry a firearm, but simply possess/own, is a different deal. and id of expected the NRA to at least send me a reply of some sort...instead all I get is reminders that my membership is about to expire.  They NEVER fail to remember to send me THOSE messages.

The DC Circuit's opinion is binding only in DC.  The Second Circuit has not directly ruled on a 2nd Amendment issue.  NYSCOA opinions are clear that the state recognizes no individual right to own firearms.  With no federal protection to overrule that holding, we are SOL for the time being.

I think a favorable ruling on Parker in SCOTUS will change things in this state.

that letter is lame
around here the judge wouldn't know you were planning on adding a gun until after it was added, that's if they even care

Quoted: that letter is lame around here the judge wouldn't know you were planning on adding a gun until after it was added, that's if they even care

Same here.

I can't get a carry permit but I could add 50 pistols to my permit in one day.

Quoted: Quoted: that letter is lame around here the judge wouldn't know you were planning on adding a gun until after it was added, that's if they even care Same here. I can't get a carry permit but I could add 50 pistols to my permit in one day.

i wonder yet what would happen if i didnt acknowledge his letter?

probably would have my pistols sitting at the dealer still...

i love having to explain why I buy what I do...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: that letter is lame around here the judge wouldn't know you were planning on adding a gun until after it was added, that's if they even care Same here. I can't get a carry permit but I could add 50 pistols to my permit in one day. i wonder yet what would happen if i didnt acknowledge his letter? probably would have my pistols sitting at the dealer still... i love having to explain why I buy what I do...

Not probably - that is exactly what would be happening.

wonder yet what would happen if i didnt acknowledge his letter? probably would have my pistols sitting at the dealer still... i love having to explain why I buy what I do...

Move back to Otsego County and transfer your permit.

All restrictions will go away. No BS with waiting for coupons. No BS with the judges unless you f up and get a DWI or something like that.

You already lived there while going to school- you are still young- move back down there and get a job- apply to OPD etc.

Quoted: wonder yet what would happen if i didnt acknowledge his letter? probably would have my pistols sitting at the dealer still... i love having to explain why I buy what I do... Move back to Otsego County and transfer your permit. All restrictions will go away. No BS with waiting for coupons. No BS with the judges unless you f up and get a DWI or something like that. You already lived there while going to school- you are still young- move back down there and get a job- apply to OPD etc.

i have a bunch of apps in all over, Border Patrol, NYS Troopers, ATF, NSA, etc.  No testing for local PDs until the start of next year unfortunately.  

If you go LE, the restrictions wont exist.  Right now I am going to be writing another letter to the judge to try and get the restrictions removed.  My boss is also hopefully going to be writing a letter for this cause.

I confess to not reading all the replies (just the 1st few) so..............

I have a problem with the guy who "bumped" into some other guy in plain clothes who then whips out a badge and wants to question if the guy had a concealed firearm. If that were me, i would've told the guy it's none of his business.....and if he wants to make it his business, he needs to contact the local police and get a search warrant. I'll be dammed if i answer some plain clothed "idiot with a badge".

2nd, about the permit restriction thing......if it says "Target & Hunting", that's it. The restriction is right there. Of course there's a big gray area but it's a restriction open to interpretation. While you may be within your right, you may lose your permit because of it. Does it suck? You bet, but that's how it goes. Hopefully you'll never get busted.

Ok, read a few more replies.......

Dieter, if your ambitions are to be a police officer, you're going about it the wrong way. Don't buck the system, it may cost you your future career. If you're fortunate enough to land your dream job, they reward you with a gun and H.R. 218.


About the number of handguns....what if you wanted to purchase a collection someone else as selling.....say, 8 handguns? What then? Can't do it?

Quoted: Hate to break it to you, but cops often get restricted permits.  That was the reason the State Police got the law amended to make the agency an issuing authority for Troopers.  Yes, State Police were receiving restricted permits.

Not only that but some departments will not allow a PO to even have a pistol license. I don't think he's aware that every acquisition/disposition of a handgun by a PO (including duty weapons) must also be registered with the NYSP Licensing division. The acquisition/disposition registration form sent to the NYSP must be signed off by the authorized LEA person and the PO is also required to obtain a letter authorizing the specific purchase. Some departments will only allow a PO to purchase  a handgun for BU/OD use from a list of authorized guns. The days of a PO walking into a dealer, flashing his shield (with no other authorization) and walking out with a new handgun have been gone for many years.

Quoted: HR 218 would seem to be a cop's Holy Grail... but agencies have been known to place restrictions on even that.  Some agencies restrict the handgun you may carry off duty, require that you carry certain types of ammunition that might be illegal in various jurisdictions.

Some departments due to liability concerns will not qualify retired officers as required by HR218.

Quoted: Quoted: HR 218 would seem to be a cop's Holy Grail... but agencies have been known to place restrictions on even that.  Some agencies restrict the handgun you may carry off duty, require that you carry certain types of ammunition that might be illegal in various jurisdictions.   Some departments due to liability concerns will not qualify retired officers as required by HR218.

Some? i think its still "most".

Quoted: Quoted: If you go LE, the restrictions wont exist.  Right now I am going to be writing another letter to the judge to try and get the restrictions removed.  My boss is also hopefully going to be writing a letter for this cause.

All of my coworkers are issued permits with all of the standard overstamped restrictions.

Quoted:Some? i think its still "most".

I don't doubt that it's most. I don't know for sure though.

Quoted: I confess to not reading all the replies (just the 1st few) so.............. I have a problem with the guy who "bumped" into some other guy in plain clothes who then whips out a badge and wants to question if the guy had a concealed firearm. If that were me, i would've told the guy it's none of his business.....and if he wants to make it his business, he needs to contact the local police and get a search warrant. I'll be dammed if i answer some plain clothed "idiot with a badge".

 It happened in a public area. That would be "reasonable cause" and might
get you a charge of "failure to obey the Lawful order of a police officer:

oh boy, now off duty polizia can go around "bumping" into people and instead of
just sayin' "excuse me" they can ask ya what you're carrying......

....come on, jeeze, what if you had some kind of physical prosthetic device like a back brace or something along those lines...what gives him or anybody else the right to check into it further? bump into me and ask if ya can talk to me for a second, "yeah right", that'd be my reply...


well at least after he bumped into ya he was discrete about the hard-thing he felt and didn't just blurt out "..is that a pickle in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"  

So, it was a uniformed officer?....or was it an "undercover" officer who showed you his credentials? If it was a uniformed officer, disregard my previous post. If it was an undercover, i stand by my comments.

Sorry but there's no way i would have complied to his questioning. I would've respectfully request him to have a uniformed officer come to the scene and i would be happy to answer his questions. That's not being unreasonable in this day and age with all the "fake" cops running around. I too can get a detectives badge and two way radio via eBay.

And i hope you didn't take my original post as an "unbelievable attitude". There's nothing unreasonable about it.

EDIT for info

Case 1

Case 2

Case 3


Case 4

....all recent NY cases

Quoted: 'm sorry, but you are just plain wrong.   So I'm curious, very few federal agents wear uniforms.  If one approached you, showed you his ID and told you that you were under arrest... would you resist since anybody could have a fake ID?  Would you refuse to follow their orders?  Wouldn't somebody able to obtain a fake shield and police issue radio not also be able to obtain a fake uniform?

I'm not going to argue with you but i disagree. From the way i see it, i'm not wrong.


And if approached by a FED in your example, i would request either a supervisor or a uniformed officer to the scene.

Again, that's not an unreasonable request when you doubt the authenticity of someones ID.

Glad it worked out for you but i would have taken a different approach. It doesn't mean the approach i would have taken would've ended up getting me in trouble. It very well may have ended up the same as yours albeit a little longer.

Quoted: Quoted: 'm sorry, but you are just plain wrong.   So I'm curious, very few federal agents wear uniforms.  If one approached you, showed you his ID and told you that you were under arrest... would you resist since anybody could have a fake ID?  Would you refuse to follow their orders?  Wouldn't somebody able to obtain a fake shield and police issue radio not also be able to obtain a fake uniform? I'm not going to argue with you but i disagree. From the way i see it, i'm not wrong. And if approached by a FED in your example, i would request either a supervisor or a uniformed officer to the scene. Again, that's not an unreasonable request when you doubt the authenticity of someones ID. Glad it worked out for you but i would have taken a different approach. It doesn't mean the approach i would have taken would've ended up getting me in trouble. It very well may have ended up the same as yours albeit a little longer.

A NYS Pistol Permit is revocable at any time for any reason or for no reason at all.  It is solely at the whim of the issuing judge.

All the LEO needs to do is call your issuing judge and say you were disrespectful and uncooperative - even if you weren't, it's your word against his.  Many, many judges would not hesitate to yank your permit.

With the precarious position that Pistol Permit holders are in, it is best not to put yourself in a position where this might happen.

You may be well within your rights to act as you suggest, but that doesn't shield you from adverse consequences.

jrkarp & HiramRanger, thanks for your opinions. While they have validity to them, i'll stick to what i feel comfortable with.  

Agree also with you. People shouldn't take what's written on a forum as the supreme answer. What works for me may not work for you.

Oh well, at least we can agree on this

No one on this or any other Internet forum should ever rely on the "legal" information provided by anyone. Anything posted here is simply for discussion purposes. If you have a legal question or issue the only person who can properly advise you is your personal attorney.

As other's have said you would be foolish to carry outside of any restrictions placed on your pistol license. If you do just make sure you are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.