I have a better idea.  When we catchem we send em to shoddy cheap as dirt to run interment camps where they are taght skilled labor.  We keep them in the camps and make em work for 8 years for free in controlled facilities.  The govt sells their labor for cheap to just barely pay for their housing education etc to companies that have relocated overseas if they bring facilities back to the US.  We work them about 60 hours a week 52 weeks a year.  After the illegals have completed their sentence they are deported.  If they are good workers the companies will sponser a work VISA for the now educated and proven illegals and they can come over to work and enter legally.  If they get caught coming back across illegally we put em to work in the interment camp for 10 years and deport them again.  That we we dont pay to teach em again and we can use up all the good years of their working life. The ones too stupid to learn skilled labor get put to work for 60 hours a week of hard physical labor.

That would stop illegals from coming back after they get deported ad keep those who dont want to work or have job skills from coming at all.  What do you think? Its a hell of a lot cheaper than putting the military on the border and is practically self supporting.

Man, would I love to see this bill go somewhere!

Boy would that screw the farmers and ranchers of Texas....

Go go big agribusiness!

Hayworth's bill also aims to cut off job opportunities that draw illegal immigrants, increasing fines against employers who hire illegal workers from $10,000 to $50,000. Jail terms for employers would be increased from six months to a maximum five years

Ok... so let's take farmers and ranchers in South Texas, who need to hire help for jobs that no American will do for any wage they can afford to pay (real physical labor out in the boonies), and throw them in jail or fine them...

While something needs to be done, this kind of legislation will do serious damage to the agricultural communtiy (and construction as well as any labor intensive small business) along the border.  Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has never tried to hire someone to grub brush in the South Texas heat for less than $20/hour....

Hell, I couldn't hire an FFA student (at any wage) to carry 6 50# sacks of feed 100 yards on a daily basis for 6 weeks.

I still contend that (aside from the folks who pop over the border specifically to have their kids) most Mexican immigrants contribute more to the U.S. economy with their cheap labor than they ever take (and they get a better life out of it to boot).  Most people who bitch about "those damned wetbacks" have no clue how much our economy depends on them.  Sad fact is, with our high standard of living, most Americans consider themselves above the kind of work that illegal immigrants do.

Also sad that the ones who really suffer from this are the family farm and ranch operations, and big corporate agriculture will buy them up when they go broke, eliminating a large piece of border culture.

Quoted: Most people who bitch about "those damned wetbacks" have no clue how much our economy depends on them.  Sad fact is, with our high standard of living, most Americans consider themselves above the kind of work that illegal immigrants do.

Our economy does NOT depend on illegal immigration.  Illegal immigration has helped make our economy what it is today, which isn't a good thing.  50 years ago, when almost all immigration was LEGAL immigration, Americans were willing to work hard for their money.  Now, the influx of illegal aliens (~12 million of them, with millions more coming every year!) and the presence of the welfare mentality, we have good jobs that are difficult (NOT impossible) to fill with Americans.

You think that allowing illegal aliens to come to our country to take more jobs away from Americans is a good thing?  It's just going to make the situation worse...

It's not possible to snap our fingers (or pass a law) and make all the illegal aliens magically disappear from the United States.  But it's past time to try to stem the tide and attempt to reverse the flow...

Quoted: Boy would that screw the farmers and ranchers of Texas.... Go go big agribusiness! Ok... so let's take farmers and ranchers in South Texas, who need to hire help for jobs that no American will do for any wage they can afford to pay (real physical labor out in the boonies), and throw them in jail or fine them... While something needs to be done, this kind of legislation will do serious damage to the agricultural communtiy (and construction as well as any labor intensive small business) along the border.  Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has never tried to hire someone to grub brush in the South Texas heat for less than $20/hour.... Hell, I couldn't hire an FFA student (at any wage) to carry 6 50# sacks of feed 100 yards on a daily basis for 6 weeks.

I think that problem is more within our own youth. I know when I was in NY I would help my uncle on his farm for 3 meals and a 20 spot. 150+/- head of dairy cow, not to mention all the other daily chores. Now when I go up to visit I help for what meals they give me. Most kids are too lazy and addicted to their PSP or xbox. Not to mention the whole idea of helping someone out without expecting anything in return has gone down the tube, along with being honest, having integrity, morals, and good work ethics.
But remember most  parents expect the school system to teach them all that.

Yeah, the problem is involves much more than just the illegals.

But the illegals are the illegal part of the problem.  

I'm not an economist by any stretch, but if you remove the supply (cheap labor) eventually the demand (employers) will stop.

The economy will adapt, and survive.

Close the borders.

Stop all the BS, back slapping foreign trade.  NAFTA CAFTA - fuck 'em all.

Tell every US citizen with business dealings OS he has 180 days to return his business to US soil, or he's locked out - permanently.

This country would thrive.  Big time.

"Backstop, you're a bloody isolationist!"  There, I said it for you.  

our economy will adapt

If by this you mean all the small farmers and ranchers will go broke and sell out to industrial farming, you're right.  If our economy gets depressed enough, eventually lower class Americans will decide they're not too good to be busboys or framers or dig ditches for $20 a day as our collective standard of living goes down until we're equal with what we think of now as "lesser economic powers".  If this cost works for you, keep wishing for it, but not me.

Illegal immigrants do not take jobs away from Americans... anyone who thinks so has absolutely no clue about the world we live in.  They do jobs that employers (especially small business employers which give rise to the middle class that is so important to us) can't afford to pay Americans to do.

We live in a mass market economy.  Everyone wants to pay the lowest possible price for stuff.  This means finding the cheapest possible labor is essential. Would you pay 3x as much to buy ... er... EVERYTHING just so small business owners could afford to pay 3x the salary they pay illegals so that they can coerce fat lazy TV junky Americans to swing a shovel or work a metal press all day?  Would you pay $100 minimum to take your wife/girlfriend to dinner at the local middle class eatery so all the busboys and dishwashers can make $18K a year? Don't lie, you'd scream bloody murder.  You (like me) probably love the outrageously high standard of living we as Americans have.  Even dirt-ass poor people in this country have it a hell of a lot better than people at the bottom of the Mexican (or any one of a hundred other nations) economy.  The ability of our economy to provide cheap as hell services and consumer goods is the reason why we have this standard of living.  This very trend is one nail in the coffin of small business (the backbone of the U.S. economy in the past) in this country, since they can't go overseas to get the REALLY cheap labor.  Getting rid of illegal immigrant labor in this country will finish it off for good.  If that's what you really want, keep wishing, but I guarantee the price we all pay is greater than you think.

As far as isolationism goes, I hate to break it to you, but there is no escape from the global economy.  It just doesn't work that way any more.  The demand for cheap goods in this country far exceeds our ability to produce them (ESPECIALLY without cheap illegal labor).  If you don't think so, you're fooling yourself.

Using the manufacture of autos as an example here.

So...we continue to allow illegals to barnstorm the borders.

Next year, all the Union auto workers are replaced by illegals.  Why?  Because the massive number of illegals will work for 50% of what the Union workers will.

And those displaced workers will become a burden to society.

So, I suspect you believe the price of autos should drop.  I believe that follows your model.

But they won't.

You're leaving out one key component in your equation.  Demand.  

The price of autos is not only driven by labor costs - it's is also driven by what the market will bear.  They will continue to charge the highest price they are able.

There are only two things cheap labor will accomplish:  the destruction of the middle class and greater profits for the auto manufacturers.

Quoted: Getting rid of illegal immigrant labor in this country will finish it off for good.

You've stated your position quite clearly with the above quote.

There's nothing more to be gained in our conversation.

Of course I'll read your response.

Good evening.

Quoted: We live in a mass market economy.  Everyone wants to pay the lowest possible price for stuff.  This means finding the cheapest possible labor is essential. Would you pay 3x as much to buy ... er... EVERYTHING just so small business owners could afford to pay 3x the salary they pay illegals so that they can coerce fat lazy TV junky Americans to swing a shovel or work a metal press all day?  Would you pay $100 minimum to take your wife/girlfriend to dinner at the local middle class eatery so all the busboys and dishwashers can make $18K a year? Don't lie, you'd scream bloody murder.  You (like me) probably love the outrageously high standard of living we as Americans have.  Even dirt-ass poor people in this country have it a hell of a lot better than people at the bottom of the Mexican (or any one of a hundred other nations) economy.  The ability of our economy to provide cheap as hell services and consumer goods is the reason why we have this standard of living.  This very trend is one nail in the coffin of small business (the backbone of the U.S. economy in the past) in this country, since they can't go overseas to get the REALLY cheap labor.  Getting rid of illegal immigrant labor in this country will finish it off for good.  If that's what you really want, keep wishing, but I guarantee the price we all pay is greater than you think. As far as isolationism goes, I hate to break it to you, but there is no escape from the global economy.  It just doesn't work that way any more.  The demand for cheap goods in this country far exceeds our ability to produce them (ESPECIALLY without cheap illegal labor).  If you don't think so, you're fooling yourself.

Your logic is escaping me...   If our economy was more isolated 50 years ago, migrant labor was a minuscule percentage of what it is today, people weren't too proud or lazy to actually work for a living and American made goods were of higher quality and lesser (even relative to inflation) cost, then why in the world would you not want to reverse the trend and go back to that sort of economy?  Why would you want foreigners to invade our nation and fill jobs that would eventually be filled by Americans?  You think the American people can't change?  You sound awfully anti-American.  People like you, with your attitudes are what are ruining this nation...

In my humble opinion...  

Quoted: Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has never tried to hire someone to grub brush in the South Texas heat for less than $20/hour....

I hire dayworkers all the time. Cut grass, Clear brush, you name it, they do it. 98% work very hard. I pay well too, though not $20/hr. Not hard to find at all, and for a lot less than $20/hr.

...50 years ago, migrant labor was a minuscule percentage of what it is today

50 years ago, at least in South Texas and other agricultural areas, migrant labor was extremely common... probably as common as it is today.  Perhaps somewhat less common in "middle America", in fields like construction etc., but chicken farms, ranches, feedlots, etc., particularly in border states, have been dependent on this labor for a long long time.

people weren't too proud or lazy to actually work for a living and American made goods were of higher quality and lesser (even relative to inflation) cost, then why in the world would you not want to reverse the trend and go back to that sort of economy?

Most Americans (those who aren't extremely rich), had a significantly lower standard of living back in the "good old days"; over the last 30 years, the standard of living in the U.S. has gone up and up and up, largely due to the availability of cheaply produced goods (both foriegn and produced by foriegners), whether you like it or not.  The kinds of goods middle class people demand today at a cost they can afford simply cannot be produced in many cases at what typical American workers make on the job, especially with the cost of benefits, unionization, etc.  If you cannot understand this point, I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

Why would you want foreigners to invade our nation and fill jobs that would eventually be filled by Americans? You think the American people can't change?

Eventually be filled by Americans, yes.  Able to change, yes.  What you fail to realize is that these changes would only be the result of drastically reduced working wages and an accompanying drop in standard of living.  If this is a price you are willing to pay, and you think that most Americans would be willing to take this hit in order to have an isolationist economy, bully for you, but I think that most people in this country would fight it tooth and nail (I personally like my standard of living where it is or better, thanks).  It is also important to note that an isolationist economy won't work in the U.S. any more because in many things our demand far exceeds our ability to produce in some key areas (oil, for example)... you think that 30+% of Americans will give up their cars so that we can get by on only domestically produced oil?  That's the topic for another thread...

You sound awfully anti-American. People like you, with your attitudes are what are ruining this nation...

I love this country.  Having been plenty of other places, I wouldn't live anywhere else.  I just think it is ignorant to think that we can go back to some semi-mythical "good old days" (which had its own share of problems).  You're missing a hell of a lot of important stuff if you think people like me are ruining this country, but hey, you're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how retarded it is.

What's the solution (this is more to mojo's post)?  Fuck man, I wish I knew.  The problem is, it's so much more complicated than most people realize.  The real problem is that Mexico's economy is so freaking screwed up.  Is that a problem the U.S. can solve?  No.  Would I like to see our border security tightened?  Hell yes.  The problem is (I've said it all along), lots of parts of our economy depend on this cheap labor, and the consequences of removing this pool of labor are potentially horrendous.  Would our economy recover if all illegal immigrants disappeared?  Maybe (probably), but it would mean that a good portion of the middle class would become lower class.  Besides, this wouldn't change the fact that there are shitloads of American citizens who simply refuse to work.  Immigration legislation will not change this.  As long as they can belly up to the .gov tit, they'll do so.  That's the really sad part about this whole mess.  You want to be pissed off at someone for screwing our economy, it's them you should resent.  I have nothing but respect for someone who is willing to bust their ass, regardless of where they were born, because I've seen too many spoiled ass people in this country who wouldn't (or couldn't) do an honest day's work without crying a river over how exploited they are.  Call me un-American if you wish, but those people suck a lot more than some guy from Mexico who's willing to scratch gravel.

One thing I would do, however, is remove the whole "if you're born on U.S. soil, you're a citizen even if your parents are not" thing.  We are a nation of immigrants, but those days are long gone.  Now it's just a loophole that people use to try and prevent deportation.

Shit, is anyone hiring in the San Antonio area for $20 an hour for being outside?  I'd take it, lose some weight, get some sun!  I don't get paid that much for sitting on my ass in front of a computer!  

The issue with most folks, I think, isn't that they're here doing the work, but that they are here ILLEGALLY, doing the work.  I met some folks on the other side of the border recently, and talked to them, and how they had/have family members in the US who went there to seek more money in order to send back to the family that couldn't/didn't go.  I'd liken it to one of us traveling to the big city to get a good job, and sending money back to the folks.  Doing it in a legal fashion isn't that much to ask.  Also, if they came legally, they might not have to pay coyotes to smuggle them in, risk death in the desert, or some other hardship.

However, what is different is that they aren't here legally.  They want the opportunity for more pay, but they don't want to play by our rules and do the right thing.  Many don't have enough for insurance, so that means when they get sick enough and go to the hospital, I have to pay for them.  Is that right?  I pay for myself, don't I?

The current wave of immigration is much different than say 100 years ago and the days of Ellis Island and Statue of Liberty and all that.  Even though most come in search of a better life or better pay, they aren't assimilating to the American culture.  Yes, there were ghettos in NYC or areas of Irish, Jews, Poles, Italians, etc., but they were forced there in many ways through racial means.  We don't have that now.  But to continually refusing to learn or use English, get health insurance, leave the tricolor back home, legally acquire a driver's license and follow the laws as 90% of us do, why should I give them any support or sympathy?

America.  You're welcome to come and stake your claim in the greatest nation on the earth, but do it right.  You're welcome as my neighbor, but I want to know who you are and that you aren't carrying TB, Mexican Mafia, criminal, terrorist, or anything that will bring harm to me and mine.  If you are, we will have words....

    I agree with the law of it all; however , I don't see anything except a wish list.  Uncle Sam has been playing touch-pe pe with this problem for years.  Between the corruption, the ass kissing, the bull shit, and the overall corporate power curve, this illegal immigration situation may never get squared away.  Getting the 100 and 435 person nut houses to both agree and back the agreement ...Well I'M IN