Yet again SOP for the Police, 'pull your gun, pull pull your trigger'...

Anyone care to say when was the last time an arrmed Cop was shot in this country?

ANdy

Quoted: I have to say that if someone came at me with a 'puka' sword I would 'take the shot', perfectly justified. The law treats any replica or intent (e.g. pointing a covered table leg) as it would a real firearm.... again justified. The last non-lethal engagement in the UK resulted in a Baton round strike to the aggressors body from 15M, he fell back across the room and got up to his feet again, still holding a knife. Fortunately he was stunned enough for the ARV crew rush forward and disarm him. All told not a smart thing for the crew to do as he could well have offered continued resistance...... I suspect the baton round placement was poor for this to happen Your dammed if you do, you are dammed if you don't

Trouble is the Plods seem to regard a baton round as a 'non option'. Most of the incidents when the Police have shot someone could have been dealth with using a baton round or a bag round from a shotgun.  

The BiB are too trigger happy over here, it's down to piss poor training, little confidence in their own marksmanship, and an over exagerated idea of what a firearm can achieve in the hands of a crim due to an almost total lack of BiB familiarity with them.

ANdy

Quoted: Let me get  this right they are issued with weapons zeroed by someone else

That's the least of the worries! I've seen a report were it stated @50% of weapons in PoPo armoures were either 'functionally' defective through wear and neglect or showed little sign of maintainance, rust and what not.

Ditto Marksmanship, most of them will put in the minimum number of rounds to keep current. It's also a good thing they don't use 'our' ranges anymore, saves them much embarrassment.

ANdy

Quoted: Armed police are a running joke, not enough training, not enough practice, im told they arent ususaly allowed to be FAC holder (another valueble source of training missed). When ever they are on one of the ajacent ranges the jokes about take cover etc start.

There is a very good reason for that, if they hung around with people who could shoot, they would realise how crap their shooting is...

ANdy

Quoted: Quoted: Let me get  this right they are issued with weapons zeroed by someone else Now if someone with a sword replica or anything else dangerous decides to face down an armed copper, after a clear warning I've no issue at all with the sheriff opening fire, that said I'm staggered they arent given individual weapons? Richard Richard, you are assuming they understand the concept of zeroing and have the time/resources/knowledge to do the job themselves.

Time and resources aren't the problem, how to aim seems to be an issue....

Harry Stanley, (completely innocent of any wrongdoing, just walking home), shot at @5 metres by two 'expert' Police Firearms Officers. They stated they aimed for the centre of mass, one with a Glock, one with an MP5. One round hit his wrist, the other hit him behind the ear as he turned round...

ANdy

Quoted: Quoted: Not quite true. It's a policy decided by certain forces. We have had several police men in our club, and bought copy of service arms, that used the club to practice and keep current, 'in the old days' of course. Most are still in the club but now shoot rifles, etc. They are very competent FAC holders and those still in the job say it has helped. All my local Police were 'required' to stop attending 'civilian' ranges..IIRC, a lot of forces 'discourage' membership of 'civilian' shooting clubs... A few years ago, a local force had several armed police as RFDs. It was found that some of these were using the RFD as a tool to just play with all sorts of pistols. Eventually, it became policy to issue them with FACs only. The logic was that gun trading part-time was not an option that a policeman could do with his spare time (and keep objective within the job). As for blotting their own copy book on the range........ The last ND at my club that caused an injury was a Plod, shot himself in the leg while holstering his pistol...in the clubroom

ANdy

I refuse to give the Police the benefit of the doubt for a number of reasons....

1. They set themselves up as 'experts' on firearms, yet the average street thug shows better handling skills than most 'Firearms Officers'.

2. If we did any of the routine safety infractions that seem to be normal Police handling we would lose our FAC's and probably do jail time.

3. There is no excuse for the training. EVERY Firearms Officer is a volunteer. If they want to play with guns it's their duty to make sure they are fully conversant and skilled. Money is not an issue, buy an airsoft and practice!

4. Although the Police want the guns they refuse to act in a mature or responsible way with them. I've seen a documentary about Police training were a bunch of Police recruits were given a firearms familiarisation course, (now that's a laugh in itself!). Throughout the lecture the Plod was constantly using such terms as 'lethal', 'horrific injuries', 'deadly', 'devastating effect', 'kill' to describe a weapon. And the 'awesome' weapon he was demonstrating while giving this spiel? A Barret Light 50 firing RAUFOSS explosive ammunition? Nope, a converted Brocock! The trainee's were almost shitting their pants by the time he had finished.

IIRC, no armed Police Officer has been shot since 1968, yet they now seem to regard shooting members of the public, many of which are clearly not armed, as almost routine.  

Yet in Belfast in 2004 the 100% armed Police only DREW their firearms on 15 occassions despite the fact they work in a population which contains (a) Many people with legal PDW weapons, (b) Many criminals routinely armed with real firearms, and  (c) terrorists armed with really impressive firepower and not a frigging blank firer with a air gun pellet glued to the blank!

Now why is this I ask? Simple really. The NIPS regard a firearm as a tool of the trade and Officers are required and take pride in being fully conversant and skilled with their tools. If you KNOW you can hit what you aim at you will feel confident enough to stop and think before shooting. Our Police are usually so panic stricken at the idea of (a) missing, or (b) the other guy getting in the first shot they shoot on reflex now.

As a basic start the Police should be required to adopt the shoot/no shoot rules that PDW holders have to follow. In 30 odd years those rules have managed to avoid 'regretable incidents' as our Police call them.

The Police here on the mainland are now locked in denial. They have demonised firearms to such an extent that even they now believe their own propaganda and are terrified of the things.

ANdy

Thank you Mark...

Quoted: Quoted: I refuse to give the Police the benefit of the doubt for a number of reasons.... 1. They set themselves up as 'experts' on firearms, yet the average street thug shows better handling skills than most 'Firearms Officers'...who's they?...and come on street thugs with their vast range time are hardly crack shots Neither are the Police, I’ve seen them shoot, most are at best mediocre shots, some are just downright useless, some are decent shots. 2. If we did any of the routine safety infractions that seem to be normal Police handling we would lose our FAC's and probably do jail time...surely this is a lack of correct training Try that defence if they bust you for an FAC infringement! ‘I just needed more training’. Nope Taff, sorry, if they want to set themselves up as the ‘authority’ on Firearms they had better be purer than Snow Whites bum 3. There is no excuse for the training. EVERY Firearms Officer is a volunteer. If they want to play with guns it's their duty to make sure they are fully conversant and skilled. Money is not an issue, buy an airsoft and practice!..An airsoft is hardly practice for firing hanguns and money is an issue if there is not enough range time..which we all seem to agree on. volunteer...what's that all about and how is that relevant.? So anyone who goes for promotion or a different job is a volunteer...behave Aha!  So these steely eyed ‘experts’ are just applying for the job because of the extra money?  Well if that’s the case, the next time they all threaten to hand in their badges when they shoot an innocent member of the public EVERY LAST ONE of them should be sacked. If I turned round to my Boss and said . ‘this decision sucks, I don’t want to play no more' I’d get my P45, so should they if they are in it ‘for the money’ And actually, using airsoft weapons is perfectly good for classroom instruction in basic weapons drill and situation response drills.   4. Although the Police want the guns they refuse to act in a mature or responsible way with them. I've seen a documentary about Police training were a bunch of Police recruits were given a firearms familiarisation course, (now that's a laugh in itself!). Throughout the lecture the Plod was constantly using such terms as 'lethal', 'horrific injuries', 'deadly', 'devastating effect', 'kill' to describe a weapon. And the 'awesome' weapon he was demonstrating while giving this spiel? A Barret Light 50 firing RAUFOSS explosive ammunition? Nope, a converted Brocock! The trainee's were almost shitting their pants by the time he had finished. Your No 3 said training was not an issue...Andy make your mind up That was not training Taff, that was nothing more than indoctrinating the latest batch of Police recruits to be utterly fearful of guns IIRC, no armed Police Officer has been shot since 1968, yet they now seem to regard shooting members of the public, many of which are clearly not armed, as almost routine. If there's more guns out there and more bad guys playing with them...statisticaly Cop related shootings will rise.If you point an airsoft at an armed Cop you deserve the lead injection that follows I’m not talking about people with airsoft Taff, I’m talking about people walking home with chairlegs in a carrier or sitting in their car minding their own business…. Yet in Belfast in 2004 the 100% armed Police only DREW their firearms on 15 occassions despite the fact they work in a population which contains (a) Many people with legal PDW weapons, (b) Many criminals routinely armed with real firearms, and  (c) terrorists armed with really impressive firepower and not a frigging blank firer with a air gun pellet glued to the blank! Now why is this I ask? Simple really. The NIPS regard a firearm as a tool of the trade and Officers are required and take pride in being fully conversant and skilled with their tools. If you KNOW you can hit what you aim at you will feel confident enough to stop and think before shooting. Our Police are usually so panic stricken at the idea of (a) missing, or (b) the other guy getting in the first shot they shoot on reflex now....more training needed First they need to stop training themselves in a culture of fear. Most Police Officers have a hugely exaggerated idea of a firearms effectiveness and range. As a basic start the Police should be required to adopt the shoot/no shoot rules that PDW holders have to follow. In 30 odd years those rules have managed to avoid 'regretable incidents' as our Police call them. The Police here on the mainland are now locked in denial.Who?...not the Bobby on the beat They have demonised firearms to such an extent that even they now believe their own propaganda and are terrified of the things. Yes, the Booby on the Beat, 70%+ say they don’t want to be armed and many say they would resign if required to carry a firearm routinely. Seems to me we have a serious issue with Police idealogy here. ANdy Andy, you are quoting "the" Police....who exactly? is the Police?...Managers failing to manage perhaps? I'll agree it's poorly funded and extremely badly managed but the guy at the coalface is always pissing in the wind. Taffy

Who exactly is the Police? Well you ask a very good question there Taff. Allegedly they are here to SERVE the public, but increasingly they seem to have set themselves above the ‘peasants’ and see themselves as being quite literally a law unto themselves.

And I still stand by assertion they should have to abide by the shoot/no shoot rules they use in Northern Ireland. Under those rules the two Cops who shot Harry Stanley would have been charged with manslaughter, possibly Murder and it would have stuck.  

You see NI has a very mature attitude to firearms, they have to, and as a result they allow CCW, or Personal Defence Weapon Permits as they call them. The rules are very straight forward, you cannot draw your weapon and shoot someone because you ‘suspect’ they have a gun. You have to have clear sight of a weapon and shout a warning. Shouting a warning in a crowded street at the back of someone and them shooting him as he turned round would land anyone in NI in the pokey, whether they be Joe Public, Police or Army.

Here however, it now seems the Police want the right to shoot anyone they think may be armed without consequences, and when someone calls 'Foul!' they throw a hissy fit and take their ball home.

ANdy