www3.rapidupload.com/d.php?file=dl&filepath=5745

Found it on the AK side and found it very interesting. What are your thoughts/comments/observations?

ETA: Its a PDF you must download.

I don't see any surprises there, AK variants have classicly always been more reliable and more inaccurate.

If one takes the rifle from warm to cold, then it behooves the user to make sure it's functional.  Most rifles once cold tend to stay cold and this usually circumvents condensation and warm liquids from penetrating and freezing things up.  If the firearm is taken from a warm to cold environment, one should keep working the controls to ensure that they do not freeze up as they cool down.

Personally, I have shot at -77F (no wind chill factor) and haven't had a firearm freeze up on me yet but I took the appropriate precautions. At those temperatures I have seen firing pins freeze in place with a simple moist breath, and cartridges freeze together from the moisture when handled with one's fingers.  Lubrication or lack of becomes critical.  Breakfree will cause problems at those temps.  As it gets very cold I go to teflon based lubes, then dry lubes, then no lube or just a hint of something like Hoppes#9 solvent which contains trace lube elements.  Self lubricating finishes are also good.

With an AR, it's quick and easy to push one pin to open up the receiver and clear the FCG which seems to account for the majority of the problems encountered in the article. It's not uncommon to use heavier springs in firearms when in the severe cold.  Only a fool would enter -20 to -40 weather unprepared and uneducated on how to keep their firearm operational.  Some firearms have adjustable gas systems which are a boon to ensure operation under adverse environments such as fouling or reduced gas - in the cold even your ammunition's propellant suffers.

It's not much different than fouling from mud or sand, you have to take care of your firearm so it can take care of you.  Reliability and accuracy tend to always be trade offs.

Also remember that as the temperature goes down so does the pressure which can make things go funky.

Bill/Protec was showing me where he had run Federal 45 ACP Hydrashock through the chrony.  First shot was like 489 fps, then the rest averaged just over 500 (like within 10fps) when he shot at -10.  The bad thing about this is at 500FPS a hollow point most likely will not open up.  Looks like the Corbon loads are probably the best of the best for cold weather carry/use.

Slightly off topic, but no the less important

I think it's inherent to this topic.  This phenomena is what I was referring to by "reduced gas" as in propellent gas from the cartridge.  You will lose velocity just as you will gain velocity and pressure if the rounds are real hot (which has skewed some really big suppressor tests).  You won't get as much "oomph" and threaten the chance of expansion and fragmentation as well as losing range and changing your ballistic trajectory.

Eh, I wouldn't sweat it much.  A jhp that doesn't open up is just a ball round, all of a sudden.  Still gets the job done, though it does give the .45 a bit of an advantage in cold weather.

Actually, I'll have to keep this in mind.

Kind of off topic...but I got a little curious today and thought that I would take the AR out for a little shooting.

I took AK-Mike's advice and wiped all the lube I could see off leaving just a tiny film. I went to the place that I usually shoot the handguns in the summer and to my delight someone left me an old 4 runner! After making sure no one was sleeping in said 4 runner I proceeded to shoot it up (The 4 runner was on blocks, no windows, no interior, engine, axles, and had already been shot up).

I wasn't amazed that the AR performed flawlessly as I would have expected it to. I put a total of 2 magazines through the gun pausing for about 10 minutes between mags to see if the gun would freeze up from going from hot, to cold, to hot, to cold. But it worked as if it was +70 out.  This further reaffirms that even in cold weather the weapon WILL work if properly prepared beforehand (see AK_Mike's response).


ETA: Conditions at the time.

Got any pics sledge? How much snow is on the ground?

We probably have about 18-20 inches of snow on the ground.

Pics, you know how fast the "dry cold" zaps camera batteries.  And if you leave the camera in the warm car, the fog on the lens and inside will go away sometime next spring.

Quoted: Got any pics sledge? How much snow is on the ground?

Like uafgrad said the batteries just don't last long when its this cold. My camera even with a full battery will only take about 5 pictures before the battery is too cold to provide enough power.

I would like to shoot more when it's a little colder. I would like it to be below -40, and this time be at an actual range. I have a propane heater so I would be warm at least. I would like to see how the handguns run when it's that cold also.

Derek

Double tap.

Im pretty curious about cold weather shooting. Its 1 degree here right now.

What lubricants do you use? Or is that a joke?

Quoted: Im pretty curious about cold weather shooting. Its 1 degree here right now. What lubricants do you use? Or is that a joke?

Today I used CLP...but it was basically dry as I didn't want it to start freezing. The next time I go (when its colder) i'll probably get a dry lube as AK_Mike talks about.

I ran my AR10 the other day at -15 using a liberal application of CLP.  Actually it was pretty wet and ran without a hitch.

I have shot my AR15 at near -40 without any lube without problem
Chris

Do you do anything diffrent as far as lubrication when you shoot AK's?

Do you guys have summer and winter settings for FAL gas systems?

Another very important issue in extreme cold is your optics. If you have a scope with crosshairs you should literally thaw it first before making adjustments. I've talked to several people that have had to send their scopes in because of broken crosshairs from adjusting while frozen.

Also about hollowpoints. We should also consider the many layers of clothing being worn by people in these temperatures. Studies I have read (AST for one) show that hollowpoint ammo may be somewhat inaffective when folks are wearing heavy layers of clothing causing early expansion and suggest using ball ammo instead. I'm no expert. Just things I've heard and read that make sense to me.

Quoted: Another very important issue in extreme cold is your optics. If you have a scope with crosshairs you should literally thaw it first before making adjustments. I've talked to several people that have had to send their scopes in because of broken crosshairs from adjusting while frozen. Also about hollowpoints. We should also consider the many layers of clothing being worn by people in these temperatures. Studies I have read (AST for one) show that hollowpoint ammo may be somewhat inaffective when folks are wearing heavy layers of clothing causing early expansion and suggest using ball ammo instead. I'm no expert. Just things I've heard and read that make sense to me.

What are optics again?
And that sounds about right with hp's I think the cavity would get plugged up with clothing material and prevent expansion. SP's might be better.

Quoted: an old 4 runner! After making sure no one was sleeping in said 4 runner I proceeded to shoot it up (The 4 runner was on blocks, no windows, no interior, engine, axles, and had already been shot up).

Cool find, one of my favorite targets!  Finding a derilict vehicle that hasn't been burned or shot is very rare up here, even more than an out of town pristine road sign that hasn't gone through the "who can make the biggest hole" game.

Like uafgrad said the batteries just don't last long when its this cold. My camera even with a full battery will only take about 5 pictures before the battery is too cold to provide enough power.

Under these conditions whenever possible, use lithium batteries as they provide more power and operate better at colder temps though -36 is hard to deal with.  Sometimes I keep the batteries inside an inner pocket and take them out at the last moment or take them out of the camera and rewarm them.  I swear I have never seen anything suck a battery down like a digital camera, especially when using the viewscreen.  Our company camera using normal AA's under zero degrees whines that the batteries are low after 3 or 4 pictures, using lithium AA's help.  My current camera uses AA's but I can use a special dedicated lithium pack that lasts a long time.  I use it when I need it, then store it since lithiums hold their charge for many years (it's not a rechargeable type).  At -36, you are lucky if your breath doesn't freeze fog over the viewfinder.

Quoted: Im pretty curious about cold weather shooting. Its 1 degree here right now. What lubricants do you use? Or is that a joke?Do you do anything diffrent as far as lubrication when you shoot AK's? Do you guys have summer and winter settings for FAL gas systems?

At 1 degree you should be okay as long as you leave only a thin film of whatever you are using.  I tend to use FP-10 as it is less viscous than BF CLP at colder temps.  Keep the lube to a very thin film.  After that I go to Rem Oil or something with teflon so that even when shot dry the teflon is left for lube.  I actually don't use dry lube in my AR's, though I do on other firearms.  BE CAREFULL, DON'T USE A GRAPHITE based lube in your AR's aluminum receiver as it is corrosive to aluminum.  There are some alternatives that should work.  I use some stuff called LPS that I don't think is graphite based, that leaves a dry film when I shoot my .22 rimfire upper on my M16 as anything wet really collects the fouling from that dirty round.  I use a graphite dry lube in a rimfire conversion kit on my M11 in full auto (and a weaker recoil spring), once again to prevent collection of fouling from a wet lube.  When it gets really cold, like say -50 or lower, I use some Hoppes #9 solvent.  Once it evaporates, a trace petrol based lubricant will be left, and I do mean trace - it's not enough to go blasting away heating up your gat for extended shooting without it burning off.  And when it's so cold you are a hard core freak to even be out there more than just to get to a vehicle or shelter, you can always shoot dry.  Again, don't do this for extended shooting as you will be causing minimal damage each time you pull the trigger but sometimes, you absolutely must have that critical few shots and need to be sure it's going to work.  Don't breathe on or touch with your grubby paws any part (especially the firing pin) of the bearing surfaces or ammo.

AK's don't need much lube at all.  I know I've shot an SKS at -70 with no problems, I think I was using Rem Oil which I had applied ealier in the year.  Rem Oil is pretty thin to begin with.  Militec is a good lube (but not protectant), and there is military LSA for cold weather.  I think an AK or SKS will pretty much handle any temperature you can survive, with or without lube.

I have had to adjust FAL's a click or two more in cold weather.  Normally they tell you to adjust until it fires in single action, not chambering another round, then back off two clicks.  I don't have a specific summer/winter setting but close it up more if it's not cycling due to cold or weak ammo.  In the summer it just depends how far I want to throw the brass.  Sometimes throwing the brass far and backing people off is my intention.

Quoted: Also about hollowpoints. We should also consider the many layers of clothing being worn by people in these temperatures. Studies I have read (AST for one) show that hollowpoint ammo may be somewhat inaffective when folks are wearing heavy layers of clothing causing early expansion and suggest using ball ammo instead. I'm no expert. Just things I've heard and read that make sense to me.

In the winter, I usually go to .45 if I haven't already (I like .45 most of the time anyways) for this very reason.  People up here will be wearing thick multiple layer clothing and hollowpoints can plug up turning the bullet into hardball so I might as well make it a big caliber.  There are some promising rounds that don't have an open cavity to plug up yet still expand (like Powerball or EFMJ).

So remember, when somebody draws down on you in the really cold winter, don't use the ole finger in the barrel defense, spit in it instead.  Slapping upside the head also becomes near lethal.

I've been hearing that the newer "premium" hollowpoints are fine for multiple layers.

Though that whole "less pressure, less speed" thing intrigues me a little.  From what I hear, a .45 needs around 800 or 850 fps to expand properly, though I assume the speed varies with mass, so maybe a .40 or 9mm need something like 900.

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is if ice works to stop bullets at all.  Like a six or ten foot rectangular prism of it.

Thanks Mike, Ive learned a lot in this thread. Y'all are very accommodating!

Quoted: So I guess what I'm trying to ask is if ice works to stop bullets at all.  Like a six or ten foot rectangular prism of it.

To test expansion.  Hehe.

Quoted: Quoted: So I guess what I'm trying to ask is if ice works to stop bullets at all.  Like a six or ten foot rectangular prism of it.

I don't think he realizes just how complex that question is.  First you have to know whether or not it is a 6 OR a 10 foot rectangular prism.  Next you would have to know what kind of ice they are talking about.  How pure the water was.  How it had been frozen.  How long it had been frozen.  How warm or cold it was allowed to get while frozen.  What kind of temerature fluctuations the ice went through.

The Army's Technical Research branch (not sure of the actual name) a branch that does nothing but research stupid questions commanders ask actually had a commander ask how far bullets could travel through the snow.  To get out of figuring the answer out they said there were to many variables.

That's kinda hard to read so:

SWAT Magazine April 1986

EXTREME COLD WEATHER TESTING

Treacherous Weather, Dangerous Killers And Lonely Roads Dictate That Alaska State Troopers Be Equipped With The Finest Cold Weather Rifles Available

By Jeffery Hall


Nationwide, law enforcement agencies are encountering criminals armed with sophisticated weapons. Assault rifles, shotguns, quality handguns, and automatic weapons are common. The traditional service revolver and pump shotgun are often outclassed in a firefight.

This situation is especially hazardous to the state trooper or highway patrol officer. These officers work lonely stretches of roadway, far from back-up and support facilities. A rifle can make all the differences, as encounters often take place at ranges beyond the effective range of shotguns or revolvers. This was dramatically shown in the Norco, California, bank robbery.

Several state police agencies have adopted a service rifle to be carried in the patrol car to augment the shotgun and revolver. Oklahoma, Kentucky, Mississippi, Kansas, Idaho and others have selected and adopted a service rifle for general issue. In some cases, this program started after a specific incident in which officers were injured or killed due to a lack of effective firepower.

In February of 1984, I was authorized by the Alaska State Troopers to conduct an evaluation of existing rifles for consideration as a service rifle. Due to the climate of Alaska, certain specific requirements had to be met.

We began by listing the basic requirements we felt necessary. These were:

1. 100% reliability after prolonged cold exposure
2. Night sights, if available
3. Large trigger guard for use with gloved hands
4. Folding stock
5. .223 or .308 calibers
6. Detachable box magazine, 20 to 30 round capacity
7. Must have a flash suppressor and sling mounts
8. Require minimum maintenance


The major firearms importers and manufacturers were contacted and asked to submit a sample weapon for testing. A clear understanding was reached with each supplier that the weapons would probably be damaged during testing.






Upon receipt, each weapon was inspected and field stripped. Each received a thorough cleaning to remove all oil and grease. The weapons were not lubricated at all following the cleaning.

All of the test samples were taken to the range by our special weapons team marksman. He fired each for familiarity, using different firing positions and ranges. We were not concerned with match accuracy, only with a consistent shot group in the four-inch range. All were fired using the same lot of military ball ammo, and the same lots of Federal FMJ ammunition in .223 and .308, respectively.

All of the rifles fired, showed acceptable accuracy, with none being exceptional. The HK-91 showed the tightest groups, averaging about two inches. Approximately 200 rounds were fired through each rifle, and they were not cleaned after shooting.

We then loaded guns and gear into a four-wheel drive vehicle and drove 400 miles north of Fairbanks to Coldfoot, Alaska: The average daily high temperature was -20° F, with lows at night in the -40° F range. These were good working temperatures and would be consistent with much of the state during the winter months.

The first test consisted of leaving the weapons outside for several hours, then bringing them into a warm room for thirty minutes. This allows moisture to condense on the weapons, which then freezes when they are put back outside. This often occurs when a firearm is brought into a warm room then put back into a cold car trunk. This warming/ cooling cycle was repeated six times with each weapon. No malfunctions resulted, with all of the rifles being capable of fire.

Next, one pint of warm water was poured into the bolt and trigger group of each weapon. It was then allowed to stand outside in -20° F weather for three hours. After three additional hours inside we experienced a 60% failure to function in the weapons. Either the hammer would not fall at all, or the hammer fall was too weak to detonate the round. The only weapons that experienced no malfunction were the two Galils, the Valmet and the FNC.

All of the weapons were then brought into a heated room (+70° F) and warmed for thirty minutes. After heating, all of the rifles functioned properly. Unfortunately, heated shelter may not be available when needed.

Finally, all of the weapons were cleaned of ice and lubricated heavily with Break-free. The lubricant was sprayed into the bolts and trigger groups and the weapons were cold soaked for fourteen hours at -40° F. The test showed the true colors of the weapons involved, for all but four failed to function after this test. Again, only the Galils, the Valmet, and the FNC were able to function and fire. The other weapons showed bolts frozen shut, selectors and safeties frozen, and hammers that would not fall. All of the rifles but the Galils, Valmet, and FNC were then eliminated for consideration. These, not surprisingly, share a Kalashnikov ancestry. The weapons performed as follows:  


7.62 Galil  No Malfunction

5.56 Galil  No Malfunction

HK-91  A round was chambered and would not fire. Round was manually extracted, another was chambered which did fire. The weapon cycled and the third round would not fire. Manually operated, fourth round would not fire. Charging handle broke off.

HK-93  Fire rounds manually cycled, none fired.

HK-93A3  Same as above.

Valmet  No Malfunction.

Ruger Mini-14 Five rounds manually cycled, none fired, hammer frozen, safety frozen.

M1-A  Bolt would not draw far enough to the rear to chamber a round. Unable to fire.

Colt M-16  Forward assist had to be used to close the bolt. Selector frozen, could not be moved. Five rounds cycled manually, none fired.

Colt AR-15  Magazine release frozen, selector frozen.

FN-FAL  Five rounds manually cycled, none fired.

FN-FNC  Five rounds fired with no malfunctions. Last casing stovepiped in ejection port. Gas regulator moved to "adverse conditions" setting and five rounds fired with no malfunctions.    


We later spoke with a factory representative of one of the companies involved, who was very disturbed at our results. He called his engineering department, who assured him that if the weapon was cleaned, then lightly lubricated with a synthetic lubricant, it would function properly. The entire purpose of the evaluation was to see if any of the weapons could stand up to the neglect and direct abuse we gave it. If all had failed, we would have felt that our test was unrealistic. The fact that four of the weapons performed 100% of the time shows that some are suited and some are unsuited to a cold climate. In addition, police officers are notorious for neglecting their equipment, even though their lives depend on it.

There were many other features considered in deciding which weapon we preferred. Weight, balance, trigger pull, sights, ease of operation, cost, availability of options, ease of maintenance, etc. were all considered.

The clear winner and our first choice was the Galil .223. It was 100% reliable, accurate, and easy to shoot. It has the best night sights available and an excellent folding stock. It has a reciprocating bolt handle, which can be drawn to the rear then pushed forward to lock a round in the chamber. This is a very desirable feature when the weapon is frozen or very dirty. The bolt and safety can be manipulated with either hand. It is very easy to field strip, without tools, and parts are easily replaced.

The Galil and its accessories are expensive, but not out of reach. If you are with a police department or an individual that works in a cold climate, it is the best weapon you can get.

For information on the Galil, contact: Douglas Evans, Magnum Research, 2825 Anthony Lane S., Minneapolis, MN 55418.


NOTE: The Alaska State Troopers have not yet adopted a service rifle, due to budgetary limitations and other factors. This article expresses the opinions of the author. The Department of Public Safety does not endorse any product.

The author: Jeffrey Hall is a veteran of the 173rd Airborne and 75th Infantry (Ranger). An Alaska State Trooper for seven years, he has been a member of the Department's Special Weapons Team for four years, and is presently assistant team leader. He holds a black belt in karate and is two time state IPSC Pistol Champion.

Troy L. Duncan, Alaska State Trooper, was the co-author of this project. A former Marine captain, Duncan had spent two years testing and evaluating cold weather equipment for the U.S.M.C. Trooper Duncan was a member of the Department's Special Weapons Team and was killed in action while arresting a multiple homicide Suspect.












The FNC was a favorite among shooters, with good natural pointing characteristics.  

Hmmm... maybe me and a friend will have to test it out at around -40 or -50.

Tap water, different types of ammo.  We've only access to .357,  .40, 9mm, .45 and .44 mag right now.

Actually, having typed it all out, we should be fine.

Maybe slugs and a .308 for shits and giggles.  I wonder if O_P would allow "guest" submissions.

Might have to wait a year, I need to buy a chrony first.

What I was getting at is I think it's irrelevant the effects bullets will have on ice.  Ice is not a proper medium to determine bullet expansion and penetration (ballistic gel is), and I can't envision shooting someone hiding behind a block of ice even though I am in a place where that might actually happen.  Ice is nothing like flesh, bone, and clothing.

True enough, but ice is a wonderful medium with which to test how well bullets destroy ice when I'm bored, heh.

Now that I agree with.  Sometimes there is nothing to shoot at here but frozen blocks of ice on the ocean.  I'd like to do it with a .50BMG but I'll take what entertainment I can get.

Quoted: Personally, I have shot at -77F (no wind chill factor) and haven't had a firearm freeze up on me yet but I took the appropriate precautions.

How the hell do you dress for -77!?!?

Quoted: Quoted: Personally, I have shot at -77F (no wind chill factor) and haven't had a firearm freeze up on me yet but I took the appropriate precautions. How the hell do you dress for -77!?!?

Layering...Layering is YOUR friend when it gets that cold. It is a double edged sward though as you do not want to sweat. Sweating no matter how minor can and often does lead to hypothermia.

Personally (other people have different combinations that work for them) I wear a long sleeve light shirt, long johns, fleece, insulated coat, and a Gortex outer shell. If I am out for any length of time in that weather I wear a head sock (covers entire head and neck with the exception for the eyes), hat, goggles, 2 layers of gloves (insert with gortex outer shell). Layering goes for legs too. Start with long johns, a poly pro and a nice insulated/gortex outer. Boots are AF issued and good to -100 (supposeably).

Below -40 its just damn cold no matter how you look at it. Not too many people can say that they have been outside for 1.5 hours in -65 with no windchill (thanks AF). It is definitely an experience.

EDIT: Picture Added



It was -20 out without the windchill (winds felt like 20MPH). 20 Miles South of Cold Bay, 5 miles from the nearest road. No one knows what isolated means until your that far from anything resembling civilisation (AK_Mike excluded).

Didn't get any Caribou on that trip though

Nice pic.  I have worked at our Cold Bay radar station in the past.  It didn't get that cold, never much snow, but the wind blew ALL THE FRICKEN TIME.

I can tell you aren't in the super cold weather - there is no frost on your eyelashes/brows.

Polypropylene is your friend.  It wicks water away from your skin.  I use a lot of it when dressing for cold, especially in my undergarments (shirt, longjohns, socks) and masks.

Wow, great pic. Thanks for sharing!

I had just taken the water out...we were at that magical 5 mile point where we could now shoot Caribou. There was just one problem...THER WERE NONE! I had just taken the water out of the pack which is why it isn't frozen. It was wrapped up in some extra clothing so it wouldn't freeze. As I walked it got about a half inch of ice all around the inside with just a small tube of water down the middle.

Wasn't too cold...that wind sure does hurt though...even with all the layers. Walking across the lake behind me was the worst...the wind was picking up snow as it went across the lake...it sucked.  

Quoted: Now that I agree with.  Sometimes there is nothing to shoot at here but frozen blocks of ice on the ocean.  I'd like to do it with a .50BMG but I'll take what entertainment I can get.

I loved shooting ice floating down the Copper River in the spring...  AKs, ARs, M1As, boy that was fun - especially with a couple friends.  You could then see how fast you could take apart a big chunk of ice...

And I used snow banks as backstops as well.  The really cool thing was when spring rolled around and it started to warm up you could go on the top of the berm and look down to where the bullets had stopped.  Apparently the bullets would warm up faster than the snow and there would be a column from the top of the berm right to the bullet - most about three feet from the top of the berm.  To top it off, the snow would open all the hollow points up just like the testing showed.  I distinctly remember Nosler Ballistic Tips pretty much coming completely apart.

Spooky

I've tried G-96, liked it, but never tried it out in the cold weather.  How cold before it's supposed to stop working?

Not bad but it looks like FP-10 made the cut as well and that's what I use until it gets to cold to use it.  G-96 is a thin coating and I might try it in place of Rem-Oil when it's in the temperature range that I switch to a thinner lube.

I just recently went out to the S. Cushman range with my AR. The temp at AK USA when I drove past was -44 F. AR sat out in that temp for a good 2 - 3 minutes at which point I fired 90 rounds. Not one malfunction with my 62 gr Wolf.

Quoted: I just recently went out to the S. Cushman range with my AR. The temp at AK USA when I drove past was -44 F. AR sat out in that temp for a good 2 - 3 minutes at which point I fired 90 rounds. Not one malfunction with my 62 gr Wolf.

Everyone knows that Wolf ammo jams every other round...

Quoted: Quoted: I just recently went out to the S. Cushman range with my AR. The temp at AK USA when I drove past was -44 F. AR sat out in that temp for a good 2 - 3 minutes at which point I fired 90 rounds. Not one malfunction with my 62 gr Wolf. Everyone knows that Wolf ammo jams every other round...

Whats up man?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just recently went out to the S. Cushman range with my AR. The temp at AK USA when I drove past was -44 F. AR sat out in that temp for a good 2 - 3 minutes at which point I fired 90 rounds. Not one malfunction with my 62 gr Wolf. Everyone knows that Wolf ammo jams every other round... Whats up man?

Nothing...site seams slow again tonight...took almost 10 minutes to load this page. Our septic system is frozen for a 3rd time this winter. You would think it would cost less in the long run just to fix it so that it wouldn't freeze...but what do I know? Other than that...nothing...it's been a pretty boring weekend. Better than being at  work though.BD]

Warming up a little for ya up there?

(Shameless bump to avoid the archive of eternal damnation)