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Posted: 12/4/2005 2:02:54 AM EDT
www3.rapidupload.com/d.php?file=dl&filepath=5745
Found it on the AK side and found it very interesting. What are your thoughts/comments/observations? ETA: Its a PDF you must download. |
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I don't see any surprises there, AK variants have classicly always been more reliable and more inaccurate.
If one takes the rifle from warm to cold, then it behooves the user to make sure it's functional. Most rifles once cold tend to stay cold and this usually circumvents condensation and warm liquids from penetrating and freezing things up. If the firearm is taken from a warm to cold environment, one should keep working the controls to ensure that they do not freeze up as they cool down. Personally, I have shot at -77F (no wind chill factor) and haven't had a firearm freeze up on me yet but I took the appropriate precautions. At those temperatures I have seen firing pins freeze in place with a simple moist breath, and cartridges freeze together from the moisture when handled with one's fingers. Lubrication or lack of becomes critical. Breakfree will cause problems at those temps. As it gets very cold I go to teflon based lubes, then dry lubes, then no lube or just a hint of something like Hoppes#9 solvent which contains trace lube elements. Self lubricating finishes are also good. With an AR, it's quick and easy to push one pin to open up the receiver and clear the FCG which seems to account for the majority of the problems encountered in the article. It's not uncommon to use heavier springs in firearms when in the severe cold. Only a fool would enter -20 to -40 weather unprepared and uneducated on how to keep their firearm operational. Some firearms have adjustable gas systems which are a boon to ensure operation under adverse environments such as fouling or reduced gas - in the cold even your ammunition's propellant suffers. It's not much different than fouling from mud or sand, you have to take care of your firearm so it can take care of you. Reliability and accuracy tend to always be trade offs. |
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Also remember that as the temperature goes down so does the pressure which can make things go funky.
Bill/Protec was showing me where he had run Federal 45 ACP Hydrashock through the chrony. First shot was like 489 fps, then the rest averaged just over 500 (like within 10fps) when he shot at -10. The bad thing about this is at 500FPS a hollow point most likely will not open up. Looks like the Corbon loads are probably the best of the best for cold weather carry/use. Slightly off topic, but no the less important |
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I think it's inherent to this topic. This phenomena is what I was referring to by "reduced gas" as in propellent gas from the cartridge. You will lose velocity just as you will gain velocity and pressure if the rounds are real hot (which has skewed some really big suppressor tests). You won't get as much "oomph" and threaten the chance of expansion and fragmentation as well as losing range and changing your ballistic trajectory.
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Eh, I wouldn't sweat it much. A jhp that doesn't open up is just a ball round, all of a sudden. Still gets the job done, though it does give the .45 a bit of an advantage in cold weather.
Actually, I'll have to keep this in mind. |
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We probably have about 18-20 inches of snow on the ground.
Pics, you know how fast the "dry cold" zaps camera batteries. And if you leave the camera in the warm car, the fog on the lens and inside will go away sometime next spring. |
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Like uafgrad said the batteries just don't last long when its this cold. My camera even with a full battery will only take about 5 pictures before the battery is too cold to provide enough power. I would like to shoot more when it's a little colder. I would like it to be below -40, and this time be at an actual range. I have a propane heater so I would be warm at least. I would like to see how the handguns run when it's that cold also. Derek |
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Im pretty curious about cold weather shooting. Its 1 degree here right now.
What lubricants do you use? Or is that a joke? |
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Today I used CLP...but it was basically dry as I didn't want it to start freezing. The next time I go (when its colder) i'll probably get a dry lube as AK_Mike talks about. |
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I ran my AR10 the other day at -15 using a liberal application of CLP. Actually it was pretty wet and ran without a hitch.
I have shot my AR15 at near -40 without any lube without problem Chris |
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Do you do anything diffrent as far as lubrication when you shoot AK's?
Do you guys have summer and winter settings for FAL gas systems? |
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Another very important issue in extreme cold is your optics. If you have a scope with crosshairs you should literally thaw it first before making adjustments. I've talked to several people that have had to send their scopes in because of broken crosshairs from adjusting while frozen.
Also about hollowpoints. We should also consider the many layers of clothing being worn by people in these temperatures. Studies I have read (AST for one) show that hollowpoint ammo may be somewhat inaffective when folks are wearing heavy layers of clothing causing early expansion and suggest using ball ammo instead. I'm no expert. Just things I've heard and read that make sense to me. |
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What are optics again? And that sounds about right with hp's I think the cavity would get plugged up with clothing material and prevent expansion. SP's might be better. |
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Cool find, one of my favorite targets! Finding a derilict vehicle that hasn't been burned or shot is very rare up here, even more than an out of town pristine road sign that hasn't gone through the "who can make the biggest hole" game.
Under these conditions whenever possible, use lithium batteries as they provide more power and operate better at colder temps though -36 is hard to deal with. Sometimes I keep the batteries inside an inner pocket and take them out at the last moment or take them out of the camera and rewarm them. I swear I have never seen anything suck a battery down like a digital camera, especially when using the viewscreen. Our company camera using normal AA's under zero degrees whines that the batteries are low after 3 or 4 pictures, using lithium AA's help. My current camera uses AA's but I can use a special dedicated lithium pack that lasts a long time. I use it when I need it, then store it since lithiums hold their charge for many years (it's not a rechargeable type). At -36, you are lucky if your breath doesn't freeze fog over the viewfinder.
At 1 degree you should be okay as long as you leave only a thin film of whatever you are using. I tend to use FP-10 as it is less viscous than BF CLP at colder temps. Keep the lube to a very thin film. After that I go to Rem Oil or something with teflon so that even when shot dry the teflon is left for lube. I actually don't use dry lube in my AR's, though I do on other firearms. BE CAREFULL, DON'T USE A GRAPHITE based lube in your AR's aluminum receiver as it is corrosive to aluminum. There are some alternatives that should work. I use some stuff called LPS that I don't think is graphite based, that leaves a dry film when I shoot my .22 rimfire upper on my M16 as anything wet really collects the fouling from that dirty round. I use a graphite dry lube in a rimfire conversion kit on my M11 in full auto (and a weaker recoil spring), once again to prevent collection of fouling from a wet lube. When it gets really cold, like say -50 or lower, I use some Hoppes #9 solvent. Once it evaporates, a trace petrol based lubricant will be left, and I do mean trace - it's not enough to go blasting away heating up your gat for extended shooting without it burning off. And when it's so cold you are a hard core freak to even be out there more than just to get to a vehicle or shelter, you can always shoot dry. Again, don't do this for extended shooting as you will be causing minimal damage each time you pull the trigger but sometimes, you absolutely must have that critical few shots and need to be sure it's going to work. Don't breathe on or touch with your grubby paws any part (especially the firing pin) of the bearing surfaces or ammo. AK's don't need much lube at all. I know I've shot an SKS at -70 with no problems, I think I was using Rem Oil which I had applied ealier in the year. Rem Oil is pretty thin to begin with. Militec is a good lube (but not protectant), and there is military LSA for cold weather. I think an AK or SKS will pretty much handle any temperature you can survive, with or without lube. I have had to adjust FAL's a click or two more in cold weather. Normally they tell you to adjust until it fires in single action, not chambering another round, then back off two clicks. I don't have a specific summer/winter setting but close it up more if it's not cycling due to cold or weak ammo. In the summer it just depends how far I want to throw the brass. Sometimes throwing the brass far and backing people off is my intention.
In the winter, I usually go to .45 if I haven't already (I like .45 most of the time anyways) for this very reason. People up here will be wearing thick multiple layer clothing and hollowpoints can plug up turning the bullet into hardball so I might as well make it a big caliber. There are some promising rounds that don't have an open cavity to plug up yet still expand (like Powerball or EFMJ). So remember, when somebody draws down on you in the really cold winter, don't use the ole finger in the barrel defense, spit in it instead. Slapping upside the head also becomes near lethal. |
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I've been hearing that the newer "premium" hollowpoints are fine for multiple layers.
Though that whole "less pressure, less speed" thing intrigues me a little. From what I hear, a .45 needs around 800 or 850 fps to expand properly, though I assume the speed varies with mass, so maybe a .40 or 9mm need something like 900. So I guess what I'm trying to ask is if ice works to stop bullets at all. Like a six or ten foot rectangular prism of it. |
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Thanks Mike, Ive learned a lot in this thread. Y'all are very accommodating!
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I don't think he realizes just how complex that question is. First you have to know whether or not it is a 6 OR a 10 foot rectangular prism. Next you would have to know what kind of ice they are talking about. How pure the water was. How it had been frozen. How long it had been frozen. How warm or cold it was allowed to get while frozen. What kind of temerature fluctuations the ice went through. The Army's Technical Research branch (not sure of the actual name) a branch that does nothing but research stupid questions commanders ask actually had a commander ask how far bullets could travel through the snow. To get out of figuring the answer out they said there were to many variables. |
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Hmmm... maybe me and a friend will have to test it out at around -40 or -50.
Tap water, different types of ammo. We've only access to .357, .40, 9mm, .45 and .44 mag right now. Actually, having typed it all out, we should be fine. Maybe slugs and a .308 for shits and giggles. I wonder if O_P would allow "guest" submissions. Might have to wait a year, I need to buy a chrony first. |
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What I was getting at is I think it's irrelevant the effects bullets will have on ice. Ice is not a proper medium to determine bullet expansion and penetration (ballistic gel is), and I can't envision shooting someone hiding behind a block of ice even though I am in a place where that might actually happen. Ice is nothing like flesh, bone, and clothing.
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True enough, but ice is a wonderful medium with which to test how well bullets destroy ice when I'm bored, heh.
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Now that I agree with. Sometimes there is nothing to shoot at here but frozen blocks of ice on the ocean. I'd like to do it with a .50BMG but I'll take what entertainment I can get.
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How the hell do you dress for -77!?!? |
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Nice pic. I have worked at our Cold Bay radar station in the past. It didn't get that cold, never much snow, but the wind blew ALL THE FRICKEN TIME.
I can tell you aren't in the super cold weather - there is no frost on your eyelashes/brows. Polypropylene is your friend. It wicks water away from your skin. I use a lot of it when dressing for cold, especially in my undergarments (shirt, longjohns, socks) and masks. |
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Can't be that cold if your water jug is outside your body.
We usually use a camelback and have to wear it between our polypro and our fleece. Just make sure that after you drink you blow all the water back to the reservoir or your drink tube ices fast. |
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I had just taken the water out...we were at that magical 5 mile point where we could now shoot Caribou. There was just one problem...THER WERE NONE! I had just taken the water out of the pack which is why it isn't frozen. It was wrapped up in some extra clothing so it wouldn't freeze. As I walked it got about a half inch of ice all around the inside with just a small tube of water down the middle.
Wasn't too cold...that wind sure does hurt though...even with all the layers. Walking across the lake behind me was the worst...the wind was picking up snow as it went across the lake...it sucked. |
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I loved shooting ice floating down the Copper River in the spring... AKs, ARs, M1As, boy that was fun - especially with a couple friends. You could then see how fast you could take apart a big chunk of ice... And I used snow banks as backstops as well. The really cool thing was when spring rolled around and it started to warm up you could go on the top of the berm and look down to where the bullets had stopped. Apparently the bullets would warm up faster than the snow and there would be a column from the top of the berm right to the bullet - most about three feet from the top of the berm. To top it off, the snow would open all the hollow points up just like the testing showed. I distinctly remember Nosler Ballistic Tips pretty much coming completely apart. Spooky |
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AK Mike,
Have you tried G-96? It is suppossed to be the bees knees in very low temps. Word of warning, do not let it mix even with trace residue of CLP or it makes gum. |
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I've tried G-96, liked it, but never tried it out in the cold weather. How cold before it's supposed to stop working?
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Not bad but it looks like FP-10 made the cut as well and that's what I use until it gets to cold to use it. G-96 is a thin coating and I might try it in place of Rem-Oil when it's in the temperature range that I switch to a thinner lube.
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I just recently went out to the S. Cushman range with my AR. The temp at AK USA when I drove past was -44 F. AR sat out in that temp for a good 2 - 3 minutes at which point I fired 90 rounds. Not one malfunction with my 62 gr Wolf.
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Everyone knows that Wolf ammo jams every other round... |
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Whats up man? |
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Nothing...site seams slow again tonight...took almost 10 minutes to load this page. Our septic system is frozen for a 3rd time this winter. You would think it would cost less in the long run just to fix it so that it wouldn't freeze...but what do I know? Other than that...nothing...it's been a pretty boring weekend. Better than being at work though.BD] |
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Warming up a little for ya up there?
(Shameless bump to avoid the archive of eternal damnation) |
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