User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/22/2006 3:29:59 PM EDT
[#1]
A federal term used to catagorize weapons that don't meet other definitions like short barrel rifle, destructive device, short barrel shotgun, rifle, or pistol.
Example......... This is an AOW 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/22/2006 3:48:09 PM EDT
[#2]
I get the whole AOW (Any Other Weapon) thing when it comes to shotguns and pen guns etc. But, Ive seen AR15 pistols with a forward grip classified as an AOW. How do you get one registered as a AOW, not an illegal AR pistol (cause of the forward grip)?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/22/2006 4:55:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Lumpy223- Thats cool as hell! Is that yours?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/22/2006 5:45:29 PM EDT
[#4]
When you put the grip in the front it no longer meets the definition of a pistol, thus since it isn't a pistol and isn't a rifle its Any Other Weapon.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/22/2006 8:49:14 PM EDT
[#5]
So can you own them in MI?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/23/2006 4:11:02 AM EDT
[#6]
Not yet..... 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/23/2006 5:24:57 AM EDT
[#7]
Most AOW's are classified as "pistols" and are legal in Michigan. I own an AR15 with forward vertical grip it's registered with NFABATFE on a fed form 4 same as a MG and it's registered as a handgun with my Sheriff's Dept.
There are 2 ways to obtain something like the supershort shotgun or ar15, both pistols with forward vertical grips. You either buy it from a FFL-SOT who builds and registers the gun or you build it yourself. Both of these scenarios require the same fed paperwork and procedures as a MG. (1) Buy a gun from the FFLSOT and it transfers from him to you on a form 4 carrying a $5.00 transfer tax stamp. Same procedure and requirements as a MG except you only need to pay a $5.00 tax to NFABATFE. (2) To make one yourself such as putting a forward grip on an ar15 pistol requires you to file a fed form 1 application to make a firearm (similar to a form 4) and you can't make the gun unless and until NFABATFE approves the application. This scenario cost's you a $200.00 making tax stamp. It is kind of silly to have to pay the fed 200 bucks to be able to legally install a forward vertical grip on a pistol type gun. This is why most guys buy the gun already built or have the grip installed and the gun registered by an FFLSOT mfr who's already paid or pays the tax hence the $5.00 transfer tax. Make sense? Once your form 4 or 1 comes in or is approved and the gun now exists, it's time to register it with your pd as a pistol since it's under 30" and has no buttstock it's a pistol period end of story. Both state and fed laws have been satisfied. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/23/2006 6:15:52 AM EDT
[#8]
Thanks Bustoff.
Now I see my next project comming, specially if suppressors get the OK. AR15 AOW with forward grip and suppressor. The "legal" SBR of sorts, without the cost of a M16 MG. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/23/2006 7:54:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks! That answers what I was wondering about.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2006 12:13:24 PM EDT
[#10]
glad you got a answer for your question, now i got one..
What dealer can i get one of these baby's from????? I saw it, pointed to it as the wife was walking by and i said, "that would be nice" her response "looks like it would" SO? what kind of dealer do i need to see? (ie class 3 or something special) and is that a factory gun or was it fab'd custom?? Thanks Zar |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2006 4:42:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Yeah - you'll need to have a class 3 dealer handle the transaction so you'll need to line up Gordie or other c3. Here's the guy that makes the guns your talking about - Mark Serbu maker of the famous Super Shorty.
serbu.com/top/superShorty.php |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/24/2006 6:30:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Thats pretty sweet! I'm pretty sure those are the same ones I saw at the Hiram Maxim shoot in ME. They looked very high quality. I didn't get to shoot one though.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/26/2006 4:06:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Okay so who is Gordy and how do i contact him? I would love to have a long chat with someone who can explain to me how to get into class 3 stuff. Phn # would be nice.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/26/2006 5:20:28 PM EDT
[#14]
David G. Burgess
Great Lakes Arms Algonac MI Licensed Individual - Dealer Class 3 [email protected] 810-335-0624 $25 Title 1 guns $50 Suppressors $75 - $150 for High Value NFA Check out the Dealers section at the top of the Michigan Forum |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/26/2006 8:32:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Go to Firearms Exchange
Ummm Garden City, Westland... Wa has them there. Great guy to deal with. He was the first store I saw the Serbu in. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/27/2006 4:33:37 AM EDT
[#16]
So if you buy one like that what is the going rate? Gotta be more than just getting one cut down like that or doing it yourself. Especially since in essence you are paying the $200 tax with it. Right? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/27/2006 4:44:10 AM EDT
[#17]
I think a NFA manufacturers license is needed to make one. Also they trans on a $5.00 tax stamp not $200 like MG/SBRs.
So Ive seen them from $500 and up. Check out these sale sites. Subguns.com www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines&website=&language=&session_key= Gunsamerica www.gunsamerica.com/1254/1254-random-1.htm |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/27/2006 2:02:54 PM EDT
[#18]
If the gun has already been built - $5 registration transfer tax stamp on a form 4. If you build it yourself you file a form 1 "to make" and pay a $200 registration tax. Got to be done on a virgin receiver, you can't chop your 870 up and then register it! You don't have to be a C2 mfr to make a NFA regulated gun you just have to have the proper forms and taxes paid. I'm pretty sure this is correct.
And then - don't forget it must be registered (safety inspected) with the state as a "pistol". All said and done it's gonna cost $5 per transfer more than the cost of the gun plus the services of a C3 to handle the transfers. $500 used to like $775 new maybe. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/27/2006 8:04:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Id buy one in a heartbeat if I could carry it in my truck (I have a CPL) but from what I understand you cant carry an AOW....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2006 5:47:43 AM EDT
[#20]
Why couldn't you carry an AOW classified as a PISTOL under state law as long as you had a CPL and the AOW is REGISTERED as a PISTOL?
I mean it's certainly not practical to do so but why wouldn't it be legal? I don't know that's why I'm asking. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2006 7:01:10 AM EDT
[#21]
BustOff.
I do not know exactly why, it was in a thread here quite a few mths back that this came up and someone said that its like an AK as a pistol, even though its registered as one you cant carry it as a pistol. I do not know if the CPL defines a length or caliber restrictions on pistols or if its a federal AOW that its not the same. Also, are you sure if you have an AOW like this you still also have to register it as a pistol? Isnt the Fed tax stamp the registration you need? I think (or would assume) the tax stamp, LE sign off and all of that would cover it... I may try and run by Firearms Exchange in a bit and see if I can get the skinny... I DO NOT KNOW! Please do not take my post as I am stating these as facts, I really am glad this came up and you got involved as I think if anyone could find out the correct answer it would be you. Yes, carrying it would not be practical BUT keeping it inside my truck would be ideal OR carrying it to my truck when walking out of a store I am opening in the rough part of Detroit....
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2006 10:44:44 AM EDT
[#22]
OK
Talked to some people at the State today and spoke to the owner at Firearms Exchange who sells the Shorty Shotguns. He has some which are the $200 tax stamp as they have an interchangable barrel set and he also has the ones that are the $5 tax stamp. You do not register these as a pistol, your tax stamp and that other form (I dont recall the # he said) are your registration. He was not sure if you would be able to carry it loaded in your car if you have a CPL but he said he is pretty sure you can't (its not a pistol, its an AOW) State people I spoke with either said NO you cant carry it, no way, no shape no how or the others said they were not sure I did not speak to one person who thought you would legally be able to carry it. So seems like if you buy one it is simply a range toy or for home use.... I wonder if I could legally leave it in my business???? If anyone can give facts that you can carry and state the law or clause or whatever which allows it please let us know |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2006 12:55:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Well I've often said things like that myself - it's a machine gun not a pistol, or it's an aow not a pistol - or it's a ak47 rifle with a folding stock not a pistol...But under state law under 30" is a pistol unless it's specifically defined otherwise like machine guns 750.224 or SBR/SBS 750.222 (k) and (i). I could argue since AOW is not defined under state law that it should in fact be legal to own in the state as long as the fed laws have been complied with, hence what Firearms Exchange has said.
There is no state classification of AOW. Even a wallet gun which would be an AOW would be a pistol under state law because it would conceal itself. So I would think most AOW's would be PISTOLS under state law. from MCL 750.222 Definitions; (e) “Pistol” means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals itself as a firearm. So if you buy the AOW and comply with the federal gun laws such as paying the fed tax and transfer registration - you are in compliance with fed law and the proof of that is your approved form 4 with tax stamp. However - you are not in compliance with state law. Since the super shorty fits the definition of a "pistol" it must be registered as a pistol - otherwise you're walkin around with an un-registered pistol - right? In order to really own these things as legally as you possibly can you must be in compliance with both state and federal laws, in this case registered federally tax paid and registered with the state as a pistol. Since it's a pistol under state law - I argue it is carryable with a CPL...but don't go advertising it...you know. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2006 2:08:55 PM EDT
[#24]
From what I understand it cant be registered as a pistol once its registered as an AOW.
Also, does the MI CPL specifiy what a handgun is in anyway? From what I have heard (again not stating fact here) it specifies calibers and size restrictions on what you can carry... I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT IS TRUE! Also, IF you cant register it as a pistol once it is registered through the Feds as an AOW then there is no way you can carry it as you wouldnt have a green card. If there is anyway anyone can find out the answer to this that would be GREAT! Id love to be able to keep it in my car or carry it on me when walking out of my store in the ummm bad part of Detroit (haha is that an oxymoron?) |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/28/2006 2:42:42 PM EDT
[#25]
It must be registered federally that goes without saying.
Nothing says you can't register a federally registered AOW firearm as a pistol under state law just because it's registered with the feds already. Indeed you are compelled by state law to register a pistol or face a state misdemeanor offense. Now logic would dictate that fed registered firearms shouldn't need to be registered as anything with the state. But fact of the matter is the class of weapons we're talking here i.e. super shorty, ar15 pistol with vert grip etc, are pistols under state law requiring registration. If they are pistols they can be carried under the restrictions of your CPL. Anybody you talk to who says - no way no how - ask them to point you to the statute that says you can't carry that pistol (super shorty - ar15 pistol both AOW's) as long as you have a CPL. As far as I'm aware - there are no carry prohibitions on pistol type, size etc, glock, smith, taurus, .22, 9mm, 454, 30.06 if you had one under 30" - know what I mean? Oh yeah - my Olympic Arms AR15 AOW is registered as a pistol with the state and I have a green card for it. I suppose if I could attempt to conceal it and carry it with my CPL but it would be pretty lumpy and uncomfortable - I prefer my G27 40 cal. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/29/2006 4:42:17 AM EDT
[#26]
Clear as mud!
The State needs to really define the whole "pistol" thing. It is such a mess. I believe you are in the right carrying something with your CPL. Folding AK, AR Pistol whatever, the state makes you register it as a pistol, so therefore by State law it is a pistol. In MI, we don't have a Carry Concealed Weapons permit, we have a Concealed Pistols License. That being said, not sure if I want to be the one to have to challenge the legal system, should you have a cop pull you over and he ends up asking to see your pistol. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/29/2006 2:10:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Correctomundo...Yeah I wouldn't want to be the test case either but then again as long as you're as legal as you can be...then the state and it's officers have to grin and bear it.
To tell you the truth I don't think I'd want this new legislature and the governatrix fukin with the gun laws right now! |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/29/2006 2:25:04 PM EDT
[#28]
BustOff
Ok one thing I am gonna say I know for a fact... You mention the AR pistol with a VFG that is a NO NO in MI If it is a pistol it cant have a VFG as if a pistol has a VFG added to it then it becomes a SBR.... I have a very good friend who did fed time as his wife and him were getting divorced and she made up a bunch of BS that ended up getting his house searched... He had his HK SP89 (registered as a pistol since it must be) and he added the pill bottle VFG he was sent to Club Fed as he had an unregistered SBR (and we know as of yet you cant have an SBR in MI) Now if anyone knows the people who could tell you if you can carry an AOW or find out the answer on here I am sure it would be you with all of the guys you know and met in the great work you did to help all of us be able to enjoy Class III here in MI. I will also say I think it would be illegal to double register something (fed as AOW and state as pistol)... That just does not sound Kosher to me. It is one or the other... It can't be both. AOW or Pistol |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/29/2006 5:40:04 PM EDT
[#29]
JYogi- In this case you happen to be right & wrong about how the actual legal statutes work in regards to the pistol --> AOW conversion in MI. The AR with a VFG is a possibility in MI but before the addition of a VFG it must have the proper Form 1/4 filed and approved with the BATFE depending upon whether you're manufacturing it (changing it from a pistol --> to an AOW) or whether a licensed FFL/SOT will manufacture (change the pistol --> AOW) and then transfer it to you. I'm not going to speak ill of your friend but he received the appropriate punishment regardless of whether the BATFE charged him incorrectly with mfg. an SBR or AOW -- the penalty's the same for failing to follow the correct legal process for such a simple modification.
You cannot carry an AOW as a pistol because a properly registered AOW is no longer a pistol just as a folding/under folding AK/AKM isn't a pistol despite needing a MSP Green Card; also, why with a CPL you cannot carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle.
It is both as it has to meet BOTH the Federal and State firearms statutes for legal possession and/or compliance. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 12/29/2006 6:31:34 PM EDT
[#30]
I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on television, but it seems pretty straightforward to me that having either a VFG or a buttstock (folding or otherwise) on a firearm that would otherwise (absent the VFG or buttstock) be classified as a pistol makes that firearm an "Any Other Weapon" (AOW).
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/29/2006 11:23:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Thanks Sect1
You cleared up quite a few ?s there and confirmed most of what I thought... And yeah, the guy did get what he deserved.... He did have it just on there for pics he was taking but regardless, wasnt my issue and havent spoken to the guy in years. I do admit I think its a tad over the edge someguy went to club fed for that (4 years) yet some of these other people do MUCH worse and get out in 3 mths... Oh well, thats the legal system and its not perfect but it could be a LOT worse. I think there are going to be quite a few people getting in trouble with the new options we have in MI. I see more and more people talking about and putting a VFG on their AR pistol (No, not with the Fed. forms) and when someone tells them its a no no they say so and so told them and they know hes right... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 6:05:27 AM EDT
[#32]
Guys - my ar15 pistol is an AOW registered with NFABATFE on a form 4, tax paid. It's a AOW because of that vertical grip. It can't be an SBR because it has no buttstock and can't be fired from the shoulder. It complies with the federal defintion of an AOW. I bought it that way. It transfered from a Penn C2 FFL to an instate C3FFL and then on a form 4 to me.
Now being that it was legal federally I needed to satisfy the state law under 30" thing and I did. I registered it with the state as a pistol. So now I am legal both under state and fed laws. I'm not going to split hairs here but just because its registered with the fed as an AOW cannot and does not change its state definition as a pistol - vertical grip be damned. In Michigan they are classed as a pistol simply because we the state do not categorize or recognize "AOW". Now here's the final bottom line. Just because you can own a super shorty or ar15 pistol - Don't go around carring the thing concealed with your CPL even though it's probably perfectly legal. You'd just be in a world of shit if you did. And - I'd also knock off asking MSP, BATFE, the AG or anybody else in state government about it. Cuz next thing you know -some commie liberal bastard will want to fuck with their legal status as in new law - and that would not be nice would it! |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 6:53:18 AM EDT
[#33]
I'll also add that I've personally had both a "firearms law specialist" (or some such misnomer) from the MSP and an official from the Michigan office of BATF incorrectly tell me that it was NOT legal for a non-licensee from another state to ship a handgun (via common carrier) to an FFL holder in Michigan. Unfortunately these people have been charged with upholding laws that they don't understand. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 8:54:14 AM EDT
[#34]
Bustoff
Let me ask, would you carry that AR as a CPL? I am just curious? Heck, if you have the green card, why couldnt you? I would not try carrying something like that just walking around or anything but there are certain times you want to stack as many odds in your favor and thats the situation I am in right now. I was always told a pistol cant have a VFG in MI... Thats interesting, was the VFG on it when you took it in? What kinda reaction did you get there? See, the reason I am looking into all this is I just started a small storefront in the city where we buy scrap gold. We are there 10-5. We never have more than 2G cash on hand in a day but still thats tempting to people. We are secure in the building the biggest worry is just a close range ambush and a AR with a pistol grip would be great as odds are the BG would be wearing body armor so the AR would be great and the Serbu would be great as well just for giving a little extra time to get cover or get outta dodge! ETA PS lets see a pic! That sounds NICE!!!! Id like a toy like that! I really think I am going to get a Serbu |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 12:16:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Bustoff is exactly right. Listen to him. If you want security then carry a pistol with a high capacity mag. If you want to blow the doors down and spend the night in jail till the cops get the law straight then carry an AK pistol with a 30 round mag sticking out (how is that going to be hidden easily?). But if you add that foward pistol grip, then your in voilation of federal law and you will suffer federal prosecution.
I bought an AK pistol and obtained a green card. I then filed a Form 1, with fingerprint cards, got my CLEO signoff, paid two hundred dollars and four month later got ATF approval to add a Foward Pistol grip. Then and only then I mounted the grip. I transport it as a weapon, in a case unloaded. I carry the Form 1 with it at all times. I would not carry it concealed. Is it lawfull to do so? Probably not as an AOW, but yes as a pistol (never registered as AOW). Is it wise to carry either? Not really. The local police had widly divergent views when I went for the safety inspection. "Thats cool" to "I will confiscate this if I see it on the street." I think they would only have one view if they took it off you one night after a traffic stop: "What the hell is this?" |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 2:17:32 PM EDT
[#36]
JYogi - Bustoff
Let me ask, would you carry that AR as a CPL? I am just curious? NO, I could, but wouldn't - it's way to damned big. Heck, if you have the green card, why couldnt you? We have just gone over all this. Technically I probably could. Actually doing so would be impractical and stupid. I was always told a pistol cant have a VFG in MI...It can't in any state unless it a federally registered tax paid AOW and even then it still must comply with the state laws as does mine. Thats interesting, was the VFG on it when you took it in? YES What kinda reaction did you get there? My Sheriff's department was prolly drooling on it for awhile while they checked it for legality - I presented the form 4 with it. They made a few calls - one to MSP who had to create a new category for it. Then they registered it as a pistol just like any other pistol. You see I had already had documentation email with MSP and they agreed with me it was a pistol beforehand. So I had my shit together and was prepared. See, the reason I am looking into all this is I just started a small storefront in the city where we buy scrap gold. We are there 10-5. We never have more than 2G cash on hand in a day but still thats tempting to people. We are secure in the building the biggest worry is just a close range ambush and a AR with a pistol grip would be great as odds are the BG would be wearing body armor so the AR would be great and the Serbu would be great as well just for giving a little extra time to get cover or get outta dodge! I would not advocate you arm yourself with a federally registered AOW super shorty or ar 15 with vertical grip. If you carried something like this there is probably some intent they would look at like holy cow the guy was carrying an assault weapon or a short barreled shotgun - you just don't want to have to deal with that shit. And if you really had to use it the shit would hit the fan. When you went thru your CPL training they told you you can't protect stuff - gold, money or otherwise and anything you shot during an altercation you bought. I'm thinking you're gonna find trouble if you pack anything other than a serious handgun. If they put you in the slam down in that neighborhood how's that gonna be? Carry like Kerry - Michman1 just said - a high capacity pistol. How about a FN 57? And finally - if you carry anything that could penetrate body armor - again you're prolly gonna be in a world of shit if you have to answer for any of it. You need to setup other safety procedures, carrying something that may look badass and have scare value is a nice thought - but in reality will cause more grief than necessary - that's just my opinion FWIW Here's some cool pics of ar15 pistol's - none are mine. The OA93 is nice cuz there ain't no buffer stickin out the assend of the gun. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=245757&page=3 |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 3:56:28 PM EDT
[#37]
They can have the money and gold, I could care less about that....
Its my life I am talking about protecting. Thanks for the reply BustOff! How reliable is the OA? When it comes to AR's (rifles) I am a Colt only guy... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 7:17:32 PM EDT
[#38]
This has been an interesting read. A lot of points have been brought up that I never thought about.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/30/2006 11:32:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Here's one to ponder:
AR15 A.O.W. registered to an LLC with multiple members. The firearm as described must be registered w/MSP as a pistol. Could an LLC have the "pistol" registered to it -- NO, probably not!?! Okay, so it's registered to an LLC member but technically "owned" by the LLC. Only other LLC members with CPL(CCW) would be able to use (borrow from the LLC) the A.O.W. when the registered "Owner" was not present because, per MI law the registered "Owner" would need to be present with any LLC member not in possession of a valid CPL to shoot the firearms. I believe that tracks right...    |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/31/2006 7:04:59 AM EDT
[#40]
JYogi - the OA93 is cool but as for reliability I dunno. I've busted it more than a few times. Lost the spring and pin that hold the take down pin in place accidentally - somehow? Broke the cock knob off the bolt key a couple times. Pissy shit really. But then again I bought it to beat it and rippin 40 rnd and beta mags thru it on the bump exceeds its recommended rate of sustained fire so that prolly explains some of it!
Section 13 - I have no good answer for you. Have you ever thought about adding the corp name to a pistol purchase permit in addition to the buyers name? So when it gets registered it's to Joe Blow JB LLC? |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/1/2007 9:21:43 PM EDT
[#41]
What if you were to use it in your house when a BG was inside with a gun (its at the point where you have every right to use deadly force) would you be up shits creek if you used this? This makes keeping a shotgun close to the bed yet secured in a safe much easier!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/2/2007 1:48:56 AM EDT
[#42]
I'm not sure you could legally do it in MI w/o an FFL attached to the LLC. Then again I'm not sure I want to spend an 1hr++ down at the local station while they pull their heads out of their six's to figure it out -- and give me the most convoluted answer that they can come up with to CYA. MI needs a lot of gun law reform and starting with the “safety inspection” would be nice. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
