Would anybody be interested in some kind of organized Defensive carbine type shoot similar to NewARGuy's FDCC(Florida Defensive Carbine Club)?

Timed shooting behind cover, slicing the pie, multiple target engagement, setting up a "kill house", stoppage drills, hostage target sceanario, weapon's transition,running seeking shooting on the move, moving targets,cover and shooting type of thing? I think this would be something good for those of us that would like to prepared for a home defense situation and just for plain good time and would like to use/try are ARs for something other than paper and plinking.

I'm not exactly "Tactical" or anything and am always willing to learn so LEOs/Military or EX-military guys chime in.


Any interest?

I think i would be interested in something like that.

Im allways open to new things to improve my shooting skills,or should I say the lack there of shooting skills.

Do I need to convert my preban ar15 into a carbine,or can i use it as it is?

Well that's 2 so far!
I suppose I should have said "defensive rifle". Whatever you would use if the situation to defend yourself arises.

NewARguy has folks attending the meets with guns from ARs to SKSs. They started with 4-5 guys and have numbered to about 30 so far.
From his example it takes some volunteer work suck as cutting plywood for mock cover/targets or other improvised devices. If someone has some steel gongs or poppers I believe that would be ideal too.

Please any Ideas and thoughts are very welcome and NEEDED! Chime on in!

IronBalaclava,

Clean out your IM folder.

I'm not exactly "Tactical"

As I gaze upon this picture........



I have no other choice than to call  


Just kidding man. Sounds like a fun idea. I got a feeling I am gonna look pretty damn rediculous though.

Quoted: I'm not exactly "Tactical" As I gaze upon this picture........ photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=8599 I have no other choice than to call   Just kidding man. Sounds like a fun idea. I got a feeling I am gonna look pretty damn rediculous though.

LOL!Dave I had no choice but to live up to my screen name for that pic! My only regret's are that I didn't insert my custom tactical ceramic forehead/sideburn Trauma plates!



Mark, IM is clear.

(raises hand)

I'm in.  

Sounds like fun.  I don't know how much I will be able to run,duck and cover with a bad back, but I could try.

Yes, but where?

What the hell sounds like a good time.  When we gonna go have some good ole fashion red neck fun? Yee haw :)

OK, but let's try to get things together BEFORE the snow flys.

Michigan Defensive Carbine Club, Arctic Operations Squad aka the Brass Monkey Brigade:

sounds fun, id probably be in as long as it was on a sat or sun and not too far away

WW!

Didn't think this would garner this much interest. 10 people so far.

I requested permission(granted) from NewARGuy to use the FDCC basic rules and info for a foundation for the first shoot and if successful, following shoots. These rules and guidelines ain't written in carbon or nothing so we can make changes to the doctrine where us Michigan shooters see fit. However, they seem fair and fun to me as is.

Rules(FDCC example):
RULES AND REQUIRMENTS

If you are 18 or older, and agree to follow the 4 Main Safety Rules below, you are welcome to come and participate. We all take the below safety rules VERY seriously. Please take the time and look them over carefully and know them (and what they imply) before coming to the shoot. It will help you and everyone else around have a safe and fun time.

1. All guns are always loaded!

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy!

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target!

4. Know your target and what is beyond!

We run a cold range which means everyone's rifles are unloaded and on a rack or bench at all times. Handguns may be loaded and holstered, but they must stay in the holster. If you dont have a holster, they must be unloaded and on the bench/rack. When it is your turn to shoot, bring your unloaded gun to the firing line and wait for the command to "Load and make ready". When you are finished shooting, you will be asked to "Unload and show clear". At this point we want you to unload the gun and show the time keeper an empty chamber.

We use 4 Range commands you need to know as well:

"HOT RANGE" means we are getting ready to shoot. Only the shooter should have a gun in hand. Everyone needs to have their eye and ear protection on when they hear the HOT RANGE command.

"COLD RANGE" means we are done shooting and people will be going down range. At this point, the the shooters rifle is unloaded and we go and score the targets. Again, no one is holding any firearms at this point.

"MUZZLE" means you are breaking Safety Rule #2. This is a common problem and if you hear someone say MUZZLE, it means that you are sweeping something with the muzzle of your firearms that you shouldn't be. When you hear this command, correct it immediately.

"FINGER" means you are breaking Safety Rule #3 and your finger is on the trigger when it should not be. If you hear someone say TRIGGER, immediately remove your finger from the trigger guard.
 
Copyright © 2002 Florida Shooters Network  

Shoot Info(FDCC Example):

This is not a formal competition or tactical training of any kind. We do not award points for good tactics, or deduct points for bad tactics. We may (or may not!) say something like "don't crowd your cover" or "keep moving" while you are shooting, but that's all. It's up to you to make the most of our drills. And we encourage you to do your best and take full advantage of it, but we aren't there to stop or correct you if you don't. Sorry!

Though this is a friendly competition, and though there is nothing to win, we do keep score. Scoring works as follows. The amount of time it takes you to finish a course is your base time. Each hostile target needs to have two shots on the body to be considered a stop. The only exception to this is making a head shot. If there is any one shot to the head, this is considered a stop. We use IDPA type targets. These have a prefferated "vital zone" circle in the upper chest area. Any shots in that circle is considered clean and no extra time is added. Any shots outside of the vital zone circle adds one second to your base time. Any misses adds 5 seconds to your base time. If you have multiple targets and you miss more than you hit, you don't get a time. If you shoot a no-shoot target, you don't get a time. And that's it. We try to keep it pretty simple.

If you want to participate, all you need is a center fire rifle or carbine (center fire pistol calibers are fine), at least two magazines, and at least 100 rounds. Feel free to bring as many guns, mags and ammo as you want though. While not required, if you have a sidearm and holster, it is usually a good idea to bring that too. Pouches, sights, lights, slings and other things are completely optional.

There are no separate classes or categories, you shoot what you have and so does everyone else. Iron sight shooters compete right along side those with optics. But don't think you will absolutely be at an advantage if you show up with a totally tricked out AR15, or you will be at a disadvantage if you come with a bone stock SKS. Your gear rarely makes a difference in our shoots. The one who thinks quickly and clearly while shooting straight usually is the one to come out on top regardless of what rifle it is they shoot with.


Sounds like a good time to me. Please feel free to chime with remarks or desired changes.

Thanks,
IB

This sounds like a lot of fun.  If it can be done in the next month I'd try like hell to be there.  

When and where?

I'am in

Interested in this.

(and tagging too)

Quoted: I'm definitely in!   If this wasn't at the pit or even if it was, I know of a place that I can get railroad ties for $1/foot in 8 ft. sections.  These would work good for backstops if we needed them.  I wouldn't mind donating to such a worthwhile cause.  Also, I'd probably be able to make some wooden target holders or whatever else.   Would anyone that is interested want to meet at the Lapeer Pit this Sunday (or next) and work on some of the details and do some shooting? -Chuck

I work a lot of weekends, but if I can make it, I've got a pickup, so if you need help haulin', I'm in. Also, I may be able to knock together some target stands as well, if needed.

This will definetly need some teamwork to get started.(Making targets,concealment/cover/cleanup) I was thinking about the Pit as well.
Does anybody have a timer?

Anyways with Forest's permission, here goes a great idea for cheap, improvised Reactive sillouette targets from the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site:

Here is a target design I have been working on. You take cardboard and cut out one silhoutte with a 10" to 12" diamter hole. Then cut another piece of cardboard and bend it around the silhoutte. The silhouette is the size as an average adult (about 18"-20" wide by 38"-40" high).

Below: Setup before being hit
<http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nJQAAAN0KJaJ6EtkMhfbCCvsOqjALpb*7SdeKokzU1NtjxBW1TFzuIi1q5HQe0GPT3QaE6bKw5IE>  

Then shoot the balloon, which represents the chest cavity, with your choice of weapon (shotgun, pistol, long-range rifle) and the silhoutte inside the cardboard falls.

Simple, eh?
Below: After taking a Center-Of-Mass (COM) hit.
<http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nJQAAAJQK3Jlz6A%21wGswnmNzs%21fS7z1T5pEVo3D*l3kgHy4sPsxyenkleDprPEZHzzF329UJx2EU>

Now let's get creative. Say you are using a handgun and want a bigger target. Just cut out more material and use a bigger balloon.

"What about long range stuff?" you ask. Just make a smaller hole and a smaller balloon. Set up several targets and you will know instantly if you hit that nasty Tango from 800 yards. Use the head area and fill with a balloon for head shots.

Use red balloons for Tangos and white for hostages! Now you have a shoot/no-shoot situation.

They are light, cheap, and recyclable!

This is a group effort, so anybody who can help make some targets/concealment for the shoot, it would be great. All interested parties please feel free to chime in on any new ideas, developments, concerns, desired changes, locations etc, etc.

Operation Parts,
I'm glad to know you would like to help out/be apart of and get this effort up and running. I'd be happy to make it out to the pit next Sunday for a meeting to get this show on the road and do some shooting.

Thanks,
IB

pics didn't show, so here's the link to the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site's reactive targets:
groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/dropdowntargets.msnw

Quoted:
This will definetly need some teamwork to get started.(Making targets,concealment/cover/cleanup) I was thinking about the Pit as well.
Does anybody have a timer?

Anyways with Forest's permission, here goes a great idea for cheap, improvised Reactive sillouette targets from the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site:

Here is a target design I have been working on. You take cardboard and cut out one silhoutte with a 10" to 12" diamter hole. Then cut another piece of cardboard and bend it around the silhoutte. The silhouette is the size as an average adult (about 18"-20" wide by 38"-40" high).

Below: Setup before being hit

Then shoot the balloon, which represents the chest cavity, with your choice of weapon (shotgun, pistol, long-range rifle) and the silhoutte inside the cardboard falls.

Simple, eh?
Below: After taking a Center-Of-Mass (COM) hit.


Now let's get creative. Say you are using a handgun and want a bigger target. Just cut out more material and use a bigger balloon.

"What about long range stuff?" you ask. Just make a smaller hole and a smaller balloon. Set up several targets and you will know instantly if you hit that nasty Tango from 800 yards. Use the head area and fill with a balloon for head shots.

Use red balloons for Tangos and white for hostages! Now you have a shoot/no-shoot situation.

They are light, cheap, and recyclable!

This is a group effort, so anybody who can help make some targets/concealment for the shoot, it would be great. All interested parties please feel free to chime in on any new ideas, developments, concerns, desired changes, locations etc, etc.

Operation Parts,
I'm glad to know you would like to help out/be apart of and get this effort up and running. I'd be happy to make it out to the pit next Sunday for a meeting to get this show on the road and do some shooting.

Thanks,
IB

I run pistol fun night here in Saginaw at the local club. Eariler this year I got two sets of cheap sawhorse legs and made two boards and had a two gun (pistol/rifle) course. People pistol shot metal plates at close range (15 yards) and then put the pistol down, grabbed an AR and shot bowling pins at 30 yards with the rifle.

I loved it, it was a lot of work, and 10 people shot it. I stopped doing it.

Quoted: This coming Sunday sounds good Iron. I'll have 4 target stands welded up by then, all that we will need are some cardboard targets, can anyone help with that?  Some single ply cardboard ~18" x 30" would be great, also if anyone can make up the falling targets shown up in the thread those will also work with the stands that I am making.  I'll hopefully have a picture tomorrow.  All we need now is a good mason that can build us that kill house! BTW, What time Sunday? I vote for around noon.

Cool.
I'll try to scrounge up some cardboard and make as many of those reactive sillouetes as possible. I'll bring balloons for the targets as well. It would be helplful if those attending can bring a bag of baloons(if you want)so we have enough "Chest cavities" to last awhile!

I'll also try to make some mock cardboard concealment(3 Step type w/a center cut firing port). It would be great if we had some plywood
and a bandsaw, however!

Sometime in the late morning/noon would be great.


!Rollcall?

Sounds good to me. See you there?

Are we doing this on Sunday, or are we getting together to discuss it and make plans. I can see where we would have the oportunity to try out some of the reactive targets, but I think trying to set up a course may require actual discussion and maybe a little more prep than trying to throw everything together and hope it works.
Not trying to be a spoil sport, just trying to maximize effectiveness.
I'd kinda like to see us develop a setup that we can continue to use on some sort of regular basis as opposed to cobbling something together at each get together.

Quoted: Are we doing this on Sunday, or are we getting together to discuss it and make plans. I can see where we would have the oportunity to try out some of the reactive targets, but I think trying to set up a course may require actual discussion and maybe a little more prep than trying to throw everything together and hope it works. Not trying to be a spoil sport, just trying to maximize effectiveness. I'd kinda like to see us develop a setup that we can continue to use on some sort of regular basis as opposed to cobbling something together at each get together.

Stryfe,
Your concerns are right on point. I'm thinking that this would be a get together to shoot, discuss, test targets and further work together on some sort of ORGANIZED(emphasis)alternating scenarios/courses for present and future events, which will most definetly require some well thought out planning. Military/LEO or those with knowledge on the subject are definetly encouraged to attend/help out.

Looks like I'm free Sunday. Are we meeting at the pit or do you want to meet at one of those restaurants in town? What time?

Wish I could make it this sunday but I have to work. However, I am off on the 7th

Now......not to piss on anybody's parade but here is something that needs to be taken into consideration. What happens when we roll into the pit on the 7th and there are half a dozen gomers there who are sighting in their deer hunting artillery? We need to keep in mind that they have every right to use the pit as we do. There may be other shooters there who are not going to be to happy about us hogging up the target area for our running & gunning. I would hate to see the D&R shut that spot down because a bunch of gunners couldn't get along. If we are there first and set up, it shouldn't be a problem. For that reason alone, we should consider a nice early start. I just don't want to see any kind of bitchfest started because somebody shows up who wants to spend some time shooting his guns. Can anybody else see where this might be a problem? Hopefully there wont be a problem but it is something we need to be ready to deal with as the pit is a popular shooting spot on the weekends.

Quoted: Wish I could make it this sunday but I have to work. However, I am off on the 7th Now......not to piss on anybody's parade but here is something that needs to be taken into consideration. What happens when we roll into the pit on the 7th and there are half a dozen gomers there who are sighting in their deer hunting artillery? We need to keep in mind that they have every right to use the pit as we do. There may be other shooters there who are not going to be to happy about us hogging up the target area for our running & gunning. I would hate to see the D&R shut that spot down because a bunch of gunners couldn't get along. If we are there first and set up, it shouldn't be a problem. For that reason alone, we should consider a nice early start. I just don't want to see any kind of bitchfest started because somebody shows up who wants to spend some time shooting his guns. Can anybody else see where this might be a problem? Hopefully there wont be a problem but it is something we need to be ready to deal with as the pit is a popular shooting spot on the weekends.

Lumpy,

Excellent point!  My concern as well.  

Team:

What is the plan to deal with this situation. The last thing we need is Lapeer  getting calls about the "Militia" invading the pit.

Quoted: Quoted: Wish I could make it this sunday but I have to work. However, I am off on the 7th Now......not to piss on anybody's parade but here is something that needs to be taken into consideration. What happens when we roll into the pit on the 7th and there are half a dozen gomers there who are sighting in their deer hunting artillery? We need to keep in mind that they have every right to use the pit as we do. There may be other shooters there who are not going to be to happy about us hogging up the target area for our running & gunning. I would hate to see the D&R shut that spot down because a bunch of gunners couldn't get along. If we are there first and set up, it shouldn't be a problem. For that reason alone, we should consider a nice early start. I just don't want to see any kind of bitchfest started because somebody shows up who wants to spend some time shooting his guns. Can anybody else see where this might be a problem? Hopefully there wont be a problem but it is something we need to be ready to deal with as the pit is a popular shooting spot on the weekends. Lumpy, Excellent point!  My concern as well.   Team: What is the plan to deal with this situation. The last thing we need is Lapeer  getting calls about the "Militia" invading the pit.

As I understand it right now, Sunday is just going to be a pit shoot, and we may have some of the targets we are discussing there to try out. We do need to take all of this into consideration when we figure out when to set up the defensive shoot.
Are there any local gun clubs that we may be able to make arrangements with?

I hear all your concerns fellas,
I believe this would most likely be a pit shoot to test(targets/guns) and discuss the future of Michigan Defensive Carbine events.

Showing up REAL early to set up would be one future alternative however, that's a crap shoot and we would still be uh,"occupying" the entire area.
BTW Did the Machine gun guys somehow "reserve" time at the pit for their event with the DNR? I'm wondering if there is a legitimate alternate place where we could hold our shoots? Suggestions? Comments?

Thanks,
IB

PS, Operation Parts the target stands look great! Thanks for helping out with our effort!

I'm working on a design for folding target stands and obstructions. I'd appreciate any advice from folks who've made these.

I'll be there around ten. See ya!

Ok since I am a newbie and been way to busy to pay attention to the replies where is this and what time and so on..  I may be able to come play depending on how far a drive and so on.  I may also bring a few buddies along who are geeks like me

Excellent! The pit is north of Lapeer. From I-69 go north on Lapeer road (MI-24) about 4.5 miles, east on Daley about 1.5 miles, then north on Roods Lake road. The pit is on the east side of Roods Lake about 2.2 miles north of Daley or 0.7 miles north of where the pavement ends.


edited cuz I changed image hosts

BTW will sunday be the actual shoot or just a goof off/planning session?

Hey guys, what does a newbie like me need to do to participate? I would like to meet up with some of you guys and partake.

Thanx, Chris sends!

Chris,

Just follow the map and introduce yourself to the guys with the black rifles.

See ya there!

Ok, one more question and then the newbie will shut up :)

Can I bring my XD-40? Or is it like a Ar-15 and or rifle thing only?

Any gun is welcome, rifles will have a better time than pistols due to the nature of the pit. Many people bring autos and AKs to the pit. Our group will attempt to stake out some turf, but the pit is open to all.

I am bringing 20 bowling pins. What you bring you have to take (unless you are a slob shooter).

Blue Water Sportsman's Association

***3 Gun end of season shoot: Were going out with a bang and blast for our last shoot of the season on Sept 14th. So mark your calendar.

Plan for a full day of shooting. Bring extra ammo above the normal round count.
We will be having special 2 and 3 man team stages along with our normal type of stages.


Main Events start at 10am, Long Range Rifle starts at 9am sharp.
150 pistol,
25 birdshot,
5 slug,
15 buckshot,
120 rifle rounds needed for the day.

Trophies will be awarded for the main events. ANY style rifle, shotgun and handgun can compete.

Cost for this event will be $20.00 U.S. for everyone.

Lunch will be provided.

**Please Note that the starting time will be 9.30 am.


Directions to the club from Interstate 94.
When traveling up I-94 from the Detroit area, exit at the Marysville~Gratiot Avenue exit, number 266.

You will make a RIGHT TURN at the end of the ramp and proceed to the left hand turn lane so you can make a LEFT TURN, north onto Range Road. There is a light at this intersection along with a Pacific Pride gas station. You should also be able to see a Lumber Jack lumber yard on the northwest corner of the intersection.

Travel north on Range Road until you come to the SECOND TRAFFIC LIGHT. This should be about 1 3/4 miles. You will TURN LEFT at this light. This is Ravenswood Road. There is a yellow house on the northwest corner of the intersection.

Ravenswood Road will cross the interstate and from the light the clubhouse is about 3/4 mile on the RIGHT SIDE. Prior to the clubhouse you will have passed the dirt road leading to our outdoor facilities. Unless you are a member (and bought a range key) you may only use the outdoor ranges during a scheduled, publicized event.

If you are coming from the north on I-94, exit at number 269, Range Road. TURN LEFT and travel to Ravenswood Road, abit more than 1 mile. TURN RIGHT on to Ravenswood for about 3/4 miles.


Directions to the club from Interstate 69
From I-69, exit at Wadhams Road exit, number 196. TURN SOUTH on Wadhams for about 3 miles. Ravenswood is after the second set of railroad tracks. TURN LEFT on Ravenswood for about 1 1/2 miles. The club is the last building on the left before the overpass.

DUP POST from other thread:

Okay, we are bringing my portable firing table, a canopy, 20 bowling pins, a box of clays and a sawhorse based downrange holder for said clays.

I'm bringing four target stands that (should) hold balloon targets (the ones that drop when you hit the balloon. Just built them this afternoon so tomorrow will be their trial by fire.

Hey guys, been real busy and haven't had much time to check in for a while now. I just saw this thread and it sounds like a cool idea.
I won't be able to make it on Sunday, but I will keep things open next time for help with construction, planning, etc.

You missed a good one. There weren't many of us there but we made up for it in volume of fire!

Here's what it looked like before the shootin' started:

and a couple from the firing line:


This is Chris (ZitiForBreakfast). He's my new rifle marksmanship coach.

This is Eric (IronBalaclava), the guy who instigated this whole thing:

and finally one more of ZFB. Don't know what it is with Marines and their shotguns.


These are reduced size/quality to conserve bandwidth. If you want an original let me know and I'll e-mail it to you.

My apologies to everyone else for not getting more pix. This is the first time I've taken more shots with the rifle than with the camera!

edited because I don't know my links from a hole in the ground

Cool! Thanks for the pix!

Marines like shotguns, we just have to point the weapon..No brain power involved.

When you see people run and then fall, you understand the blistering effect of a few well placed graz'n shotgun rounds.

"M"uscles "A"re "R"equired, "I"ntelligence "N"on "E"ssential

:)