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Posted: 4/10/2005 6:56:04 PM EDT
[#1]
I look at firearms training the same way I would look at professional golf lessons.
There are those golfers that have been doing it for 30+ years and have never had lessons, or maybe learned a long time ago, but never went back for lessons. Most are hackers at best and unless they get out to the course 2+ times a week, they'll never shave any strokes off their score. Once you take lessons from a golf PRO, you may get WORSE before you get BETTER, but once you start learning a new technique, you get better by LEAPS and BOUNDS! You have to stay in constant practice if you are a scratch golfer to maintain your game. Even pros like Tiger Woods are at the top of the heap one year, and have to start all over the next year at the bottom. Tiger was so good, that they redid all the PGA courses so that they were "Tiger-proof" one year. He had to go out and learn a completely new style. He did and he kicked everyone's butt, but it took dedication, willingness to learn and PRACTICE! So if PGA Pros at the top of their game can take advice and learn new tricks, perhaps a NRA or DNR safety class or a 2-hour CCW course may not be enough to teach us all we need to know about shooting skills... |
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Posted: 4/10/2005 7:37:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Well, to be honest I think I can take care of myself already. One thing I do is to make sure my rifles and handguns are as accurate as I can make them instead of just blowing off ammo downrange. If I do decide to take a self defense course it will be from Gunsite or Thunder Ranch probably, although it is doubtful that I would go.
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Posted: 4/10/2005 8:49:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Being proficient and accurate is key since only hits count. However it is important to consider the fact that being a fantastic shot is not the same as being a good gunfighter. A crucial element yes, but not the only factor to consider. Although I think you would be surprised at the improvement classes like this can make to your marksmanship (regardless of skill level and experience), there are things that make these classes really unique compared to a normal day at the range. How often do you get a chance to engage targets to all sides in the same course of fire? Do you regularly practice movement shooting, or use of cover, shooting from inside and around vehicles, working with a buddy to engage multiple threats, engaging targets while directing your loved ones to safety, presenting from a holster and retention position. Do you have techniques you practice for one handed shooting and manipulation of your firearms? There are an endless number of scenarios that can occur. No matter how good a person is at something, with an open mind there is always room for improvement. The only people that are unteachable are the ones that make themselves that way. |
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Posted: 4/10/2005 9:05:07 PM EDT
[#4]
I've never known anyone who has ever been in the situations you describe and I have been around for a lot of years.
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Posted: 4/10/2005 9:13:21 PM EDT
[#5]
It's better trained than having no training at all. Besides one never knows what the future holds |
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Posted: 4/10/2005 11:04:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Hey, you're right, whatever you think is right for you.
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Posted: 4/11/2005 4:35:53 AM EDT
[#7]
That kind of thinking is probably why we disagree so often jem. I have never been in a bad car accident but I wear my seatbelt. I have never had to give anyone CPR but I am glad I learned how. Your statement is an example of narrow-minded thinking and an attitude that prevents growth. Perhaps at your age growth is no longer of concern to you. If that is the case then there is nothing constructive you can bring to the table here, and I respectfully request that you limit your posting in this thread. The world has changed quite a bit in not only your lifetime but mine as well and I see training of this nature as a very sensible undertaking. Perhaps I will live out the rest of my days never needing what I have learned. However, it is never a bad thing to have more tools in the toolbox. Better to have it and never need it than to need it and be without, me thinks. It is my belief that everyone should take responsibility for their own protection and security. Carrying a firearm can be a great step towards providing that security to yourself and your loved ones. In the hands of an untrained person it can also have unfortunate consequences. IMHO it is irresponsible to carry a firearm without seeking proper instruction and maintaining a strong practice regiment. What it comes down to is training is NEVER a bad idea and is often the key to controlling a situations outcome. Besides it is FUN to do all that stuff. I imagine everyone here still gets enjoyment out of shooting his or her firearms.  Now, can we get back on the subject of what people would be interested in seeing offered? What would make you all want to get out and train? |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 5:30:45 AM EDT
[#8]
NM
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Posted: 4/11/2005 6:29:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Quinlan...narrow minded??....no, I think I can take care of myself period, have actually done so for many years...
Who died and made you the moderator on this forum? This is an open forum, and I thought anyone could post either in agreement or disagreement which you seem to have a diploma in also. Defensive Edge?....you know, I have heard that name once or twice on this forum, just can't seem to remember when. Oh well, getting old, memory is going. Well anyway, good luck on your SD classes, never know when you might need them when you go to LA or Chicago or etc... |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 6:37:35 AM EDT
[#10]
You just prove my point further  |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 6:52:25 AM EDT
[#11]
since when is violent crime always limited to those cities. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but criminals dont care what town you live in. They are predators of opportunity. Anyway, I am still planning on taking (how long have I been saying that?) carbine 1 and handgun 1 next time they are offered. I'll have try and fit it around schol and see if I can get a day off work. Gotta get my truck fixed first though. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 7:14:08 AM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 4/11/2005 8:21:38 AM EDT
[#13]
And people will never fly airplanes into buildings, either. 
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Posted: 4/11/2005 10:00:48 AM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 4/11/2005 10:47:04 AM EDT
[#15]
I worked executive protection in the private sector for a few years. Coming out of the military, I thought I'd be schooling the instructors on tactics. I was wrong. We trained every week either on the range or in the dojo.
Some of the range courses included: Low light / no light with both pistol and shotgun. We would move from cover to cover negotiating targets at various distances. Weak hand target engagement. The simulation called for only using your weak hand; you couldn't touch the weapon with the other. This included mag changes. Speed drills. Too many to list but my favorite was always the one where we had the target moving toward us and we'd have to drop our asp baton, draw our weapon, and engage the target before it hit us. Of course we did a lot of the basics as well. Besides accuracy shooting, we'd load each other's mags, integrating dummy rounds here and there in order to practice malfunction / stoppage drills. We were always moving up and down the range utilizing cover. In the dojo we'd practice ju jitsu, red man, various asp baton drills, knife fighting (I suck at knife fighting), hand cuffing, weapon retention, and many other scenarios. We were in one of these classes at least once per week. Mandatory requirements called for approximately 100 hours annually but most everyone would surpass that by the end of their 6th or 7th month. I really miss getting paid to train like that. And I don't care who you are or what you know, you always need training. I mean seriously, you don't see special operations guys stop training after combat. Even the instructors at that private company had to take the same classes they taught. There's an obvious reason for it. Good topic, BTW. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 11:22:34 AM EDT
[#16]
Don Shula said it best " Practice Perfection Ensures Game Day Performance "
And as Sully says " If they are not going into the same hole, there is room for improvement " |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 12:04:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Additional training is always a good thing. People can think what they want about the military, whether they were in or not, and what each individuals experience was. But the military never stops training, from the lowest private up to the officers, there is always more to learn and improve.
Even in civilian life our jobs / careers demand that we continue training and learning new techniques to be more effective at what we do. I don’t see Quinlan V’s thread is to belittle or preach to anyone. They are just asking for input to learn, grow, and teach. I kind of thought that is what these forums are all about, to learn from each other. If someone has a better way of doing something with a firearm, I’ll listen, see if it is right for me and then decide. Sua Sponte, Prib |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 1:17:18 PM EDT
[#18]
At 48 years old (thats 336 dog years for death451) I feel it is a safe bet I'll not be leading any fire teams.
On the other hand I heard a guy say once that "I'd rather be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war" That light bulb still burns pretty bright for me. All the esoterics aside, I've found that working on a "hot" range in 360 degrees is about as much fun as I've had as an adult since I quit jumping out of airplanes. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 1:58:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Now, why would you go and jump out of a perfectly good airplane? |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 2:53:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Thanks for giving the cheeseheads a heads up, Q!
We'll probably be interested in HG1 and/or 2 (dunno if we qualify for 2) as sound training, and to re-up our certs for the non-res permit when the MNSC rules our way. I know Tommy and Irv also need to re-up, as their training is over 1 year old as well. Carbine 3, Gunfighting around loved ones, vehicles, etc. would all be courses that the alumni would be up for. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 4:51:11 PM EDT
[#21]
firearms training, like martial arts training is a skill that you must regularly practice to hopefully improve or at least maintain a certain level of profeciency. That being said, you guys are very fortunate to have Sully right in your backyard. His stuff is very good. I especially encourage the non LE/Military guys who own these types of weapons to get some formal training.
Ben trained Infantryman Fort Benning, GA 1992 OSUT Fort Chaffee, AR 1992 & 93 JRTC Fort Wainwright Alberta CA 93 with the PPCLI (Prince Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) Fort Irwin, CA 1994 NTC I've carried an M-16 many times in training. I still seek training. 
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Posted: 4/11/2005 5:13:04 PM EDT
[#22]
It's too bad you're too scared to risk a few bucks to come out to a class and find out for sure. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 5:15:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Yeah Q, thanks for bringing us in on this. I'd like to see a combo handgun I/II the same way we did the carbine. Would also love to do a 2 man tactics class. I can't help but to see training as a good thing, and would probably be interested in most classes. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 5:21:48 PM EDT
[#24]
No problem, you guys have a great crew out there. I know Sully is hoping to do some special stuff for the WI crew. He would like to do a 2 day handgun for starters. If he does I would like to cruise out and do some more training with the Cheesehead crew  Maybe after that there could be an advanced Carbine/Handgun 2day class for the alumni. That would be a cool class to hold here if you guys were willing to road trip. A combined MN-WI high speed weekend |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 5:25:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Q, have you done the precision rifle class yet? |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 5:34:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Nope, I am taking it for the first time in a couple weeks. I met the instructor at cold weather carbine and I think he will do a great job though. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 5:44:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Death451 was thinking that the 2 day classes at a discounted rate are great and I agree. They are an incredible value and are especially nice for those that have to travel.
Would people like to see more of those? Another option I was thinking about would be a short 4 hour intro class. It would be at a special rate and give people a chance to see what DE is all about with a minimal investment of time and $. Then if you like the training and want to take it further, you can deduct the amount you paid for the intro class from a level 1 class of your choosing. Does that idea strike a chord with anyone? One thing I would like to add to anyone that is thinking about taking one of the classes but is hesitant due to lack of equipment or high ammo expenses, don’t let that stop you from attending! We can make arrangements for equipment and I can get ammo at wholesale with a little advance notice. Thanks for all the replies! I greatly appreciate your input. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 6:03:44 PM EDT
[#28]
I enjoyed the Cold Weather Carbine course and learned a lot. I would take any additional carbine, pistol or shotgun training available if it fits my schedule. I know I need to work on drawing from concealment, dealing with multiple attackers and shooting while moving. I practice on my own frequently but there is always something new to learn.
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Posted: 4/11/2005 6:19:26 PM EDT
[#29]
If some any one comes out to one of D.E.'s Carbine1or handgun1 classes and does not learn anything (and can look me in the face and tell me so.) I will pay for your class.
Alumni need not apply. That is how confident I am in Sully's training ability. I am not Kissing Sullys ASS, he is not even that good looking! We have Gunsite/ Thunder Ranch Quality training in our own backyard and people are not useing it. So my offer stands to any one willing (except alumni)to come out and try to take my money. I still feel we need a less leathal day if all you have is a hammer every problem is a nail Unfourtunately more handgun and carbine1 classes for the new folks who want to come out and try and take me up on my offer I have at least Three new students for Carbine/pistol1 class how about that for a class one day carbine one day pistol weekend. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 6:47:42 PM EDT
[#30]
GET a Copy of SFAUC read it and do the drills. It is the best reference in use to date, FM 03-05.221
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Posted: 4/11/2005 6:58:57 PM EDT
[#31]
A level 1 weekend would be a great idea! A person could get a good start on the fundamentals and qualify for the alumni classes for both Handgun and carbine.
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Posted: 4/11/2005 7:37:00 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 4/11/2005 7:55:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Thanks for posting. It sounds like you got to cover a bunch of great stuff in that training. |
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Posted: 4/11/2005 7:58:26 PM EDT
[#34]
As death451 mentioned I would also like to cover stuff like pepper spray and taser. I am a firm believer that if you carry a handgun you should also carry pepper spray.
Weapon retention and improvised weapons would also be great. |
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Posted: 4/12/2005 4:13:11 AM EDT
[#35]
No such thing as "a perfectly good airplane"!
Sua SPonte, Prib |
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Posted: 4/12/2005 4:14:54 AM EDT
[#36]
IMHO the best and most realistic training I get is with simunitions. We use our own (modified) duty weapons. We aren't shooting at paper, but other trained adversaries. It hurts when you get hit. Whoever said earlier that there's a difference between marksmanship and gunfighting was right on.
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Posted: 4/12/2005 6:00:05 AM EDT
[#37]
I have seen a student do quite well with an AK at carbine classes
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Posted: 4/12/2005 6:09:16 AM EDT
[#38]
Sully has mentioned simunitions as a possibility in the future. They are pretty expensive though. I would love to do some force on force training. Simunitions would be my first choice, but airsoft is also an alternative (to keep costs down a bit). Anything that gets someone shooting back is going to be great training. Good suggestion. |
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Posted: 4/12/2005 6:32:40 AM EDT
[#39]
Thanks for chiming in, everybody!
Now I hope to see you all at class next time. I'll buy the coffee! 
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Posted: 4/12/2005 6:33:59 AM EDT
[#40]
AIR$OFT IZ THA B0Mb~!! |
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Posted: 4/12/2005 6:36:04 AM EDT
[#41]
I just knew somebody had to go there  |
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Posted: 4/12/2005 6:38:12 AM EDT
[#42]
BOOYAAH  |
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Posted: 4/12/2005 10:33:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Quinn, the two day classes would rock for a guy like me. (5 hour drive). Lets start nailing down some dates. Handgun 2&3 weekend, carbine fest weekend, less lethal weekend
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Posted: 4/12/2005 4:48:53 PM EDT
[#44]
Lets have rambo camp every thing you need to be a rambo.
So long as Mcnielsen brings the Carribou Comando coffee.
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Posted: 4/12/2005 6:51:13 PM EDT
[#45]
Team tactics. 2 man, 4 man, and up. Breaching and room clearing. Force on force training. Unarmed defense (bare hand, knife, OC, impact weapons).
Two day classes are da bomb! Me want more! They just have to come later in the year when I get Uncle Sam and his IRS minions paid off! |
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Posted: 4/13/2005 6:55:00 AM EDT
[#46]
I'm coming for you! |
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Posted: 4/13/2005 5:49:02 PM EDT
[#47]
I like many of the ideas. Great topic "Q". These are my ideas. We should have the schedule published by the end of the week.
I am about to put out the summer schedule for Minnesota based Defensive Edge courses, but will also schedule around out of State courses as well. For Minnesota we are planning the following as of this time: *Handgun-1 (on-going) *Handgun for Protective Agents (on-going) *Handgun 2 & 3 *Revolver-1 (this will be a 1-day course specifically dedicated to the revolver) *Carbine 1-2 weekend *Carbine 3 (if there is enough interest) *Gunfighting From & Around Vehicles (360 degree enviroment engagements) *Gunfighting to Protect Others "With and Around Your Loved Ones" (Great Course and shouldn't be missed by anyone!!!) *Precision Rifle 2-day *Defensive Shotgun 1 & 2 *Defensive Alternatives/Options (Pepper/Chem Sprays, Taser & Stun Guns, Impact Tools, Empty Hand). *Edged & Improvised Weapons (Knife & Weapons of Opprotunity) (this is a great high risk environment course that deals with using what you have available, a must for those that travel) *Team Tactics *AR-15/M-16 Armoring *Glock Armoring *Defensive Shotgun Armoring (Remington, Mossberg, Winchester, & Benelli) *Precision Bolt Rifle Armoring (Remington & Savage) *Force on Force (Simunitions & Alternative Options) (If there is enough interest) *Low Light Pistol (this will be a Fall course, probably October). *Basic SWAT *Basic Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor *Advanced Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor *Law Enforcement Carbine Rifle Instructor *Gunfighting For Ladies Most of these are based on 1-day courses, but we are willing to group them together for a 2-day or 3-day day course, let us know your thoughts please!!! CY6, Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor TheDefensiveEdge.com |
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Posted: 4/13/2005 6:39:47 PM EDT
[#48]
I think it would be great to have a Handgun 1-2 combined(2 day) and Carbine 1-2 (2-day). That would be a perfect setup for a combined Carbine 3 / Handgun 3 (2-day) later in the summer.
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Posted: 4/13/2005 6:44:31 PM EDT
[#49]
most of us have handgun 1 don't we? a handgun 2 and 3 weekend would be better. Yes?
There should be interest in carbine 3. It all looks awesome. Hey Quinn or Inna could you guys post this thread or something like it in the Dakota's fourm please. |
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Posted: 4/13/2005 7:33:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Quite a few of the MN alumni have handgun 1, but there are a fair # that don't. Plus there is a great WI crew that needs a handgun 1 yet and it would be nice to offer it with a second day to make the trip worth while. My thinking was that we could get a good number of students up to speed with level 1&2 covered in both handgun and carbine, then move on to handgun and carbine level 3. From there we can move on to team tactics and Force on Force training, which require more students.
I will at least post a link to get things started in some other hometown areas. |
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