correct me if i'm wrong........
I read that most of the time with the shorter gas system of a carbine rifles tend to overfunction for the most part because they get more gas than what a rifle length gas system gets

am I right or wrong.........I'm going some place with this so stay tuned......I have to go to a little christmas party I'll be back later.....

Higher pressure to the bolt carrier key in a carbine than in a full length rifle.

so now answer me this......

When a rifle short strokes it's because of a lack of gas"most of the time" right

I'm not sure about this and I'm too lazy to look but i thought the pressure was double or dang close to it in a carbine vs rifle ......right or wrong.......

would say thats the most common problem, or a loose gas key, think pressure in a carbine depends on how big the gas port is drilled, thats the reason for pig tailed and adjustable tubes.


MLW>"<

Quoted: would say thats the most common problem, or a loose gas key, think pressure in a carbine depends on how big the gas port is drilled, thats the reason for pig tailed and adjustable tubes. MLW>"<

I understand that .........but if it's drilled as per spec.......they suposedly run with  more pressure


anyways........what I'm getting at is.......

and I'm being serious hereif the carbine is runing with more pressure than what it needs then a low pressure round shouldn't keep the rifle from running unless it's just crazy low....right or wrong

If you have a higher pressure on the bolt carrier key, you can step up the strength of the recoil spring, put in a FA bolt carrier (more weight), or lengthen the gas tube, install a gas valve,  to slow down the bolt carrier travel. If there is inadequate presssure (or gas volume), the bolt carrier will short cycle. Too much pressure shouldn't hurt anything except you may get some gas back in your face through the charnging handle. Lots of CLP on the bolt carrier/bolk assembly will show oil/carbon coming back through that gap if pressure is too high. The only way the pressure could be too high is if the gas port/front sight base is partially clogged/restricted or if the hole was too small. The variance on the gas port specs is wide enough too much pressure very selfdom happpens.
On a match weapon slowing the bolt carrier/bolt speed down to the slowest possible working speed is an asset in rapid fire and sight acquistiion.

Quoted: [nd I'm being serious hereif the carbine is runing with more pressure than what it needs then a low pressure round shouldn't keep the rifle from running unless it's just crazy low....right or wrong

The pressure is gonna have to be REAL low for the bolt carrier not too cycle. If the bullet breaks the 2000 fps muzzle, it should cycle. IF you go below that, get a bolt action!

just get an AK and you wont have to worry about any of this.

Quoted: Quoted: [nd I'm being serious hereif the carbine is runing with more pressure than what it needs then a low pressure round shouldn't keep the rifle from running unless it's just crazy low....right or wrong The pressure is gonna have to be REAL low for the bolt carrier not too cycle. If the bullet breaks the 2000 fps muzzle, it should cycle. IF you go below that, get a bolt action!

We're on the same sheet of music.........I'm not sure what the exact numbers are but I would figure your probably not of by much............."not sure" /cause I don't have a way to measure pressure


Anyway the point of this whole thing is I continually see threads where people say WOLF
is so underpowered that their carbines won't run .........and nobody ever bring's up what I'm saying .............. I don't claim to be an expert I'm far from it and I know it........but it just seems logical to me if your carbine wont run because of lack of gas it has to be some way underpowered stuff since an in spec carbine "has more than it needs".........what am I missing

Quoted: just get an AK and you wont have to worry about any of this.

I will be getting another one eventually strictly for bumping......just cant make up my mind if I want an underfolder or not

I'm glad you read and chimed in....... I got a question for you.......the S&B you had could you notice any diference in felt recoil between it and the wolf....

I'm just wondering what was causing the fte

I don't wory all of my guns run with wolf even my pre ban debaned  colt hbar20" rifle.......which theoretically should have more trouble running with wolf than anything since it has less gas than a carbine to start with............

I really wish I had traded you some of my wolf for some of your S&B and shot it in my carbine just to see if I had the same result's ..........but then again I'm not sure you wern't limpwristing it

Gas operated firearms can be measured in terms of volume/pressure. Shotguns are use more volume than pressure, whereas a rifle uses more pressure than volume. Both are indicative of the energy required to operate the system involved.
Kind of like farts:
High volume, high pressure - sounds like a bugle in your back pocket and can be smelled thoughout  a tour bus.
High volume, low pressure - quiet and hits EVERBODY on the tour bus.
Low volume, high pressure - loud but short in duration and can't be smelled more than two seats back.
Low volume, low pressure - quiet and only hits the person sitting next to you on the bus.

Things that can slow cycling down causing FTE or FTF, is carbon or chamber debris. WOLF is bad about the case laquer screwing up a chamber. The steel cases are also good about screwing up an extractor.

Quoted: Quoted: just get an AK and you wont have to worry about any of this. I will be getting another one eventually strictly for bumping......just cant make up my mind if I want an underfolder or not I'm glad you read and chimed in....... I got a question for you.......the S&B you had could you notice any diference in felt recoil between it and the wolf.... I'm just wondering what was causing the fte I don't wory all of my guns run with wolf even my pre ban debaned  colt hbar20" rifle.......which theoretically should have more trouble running with wolf than anything since it has less gas than a carbine to start with............ I really wish I had traded you some of my wolf for some of your S&B and shot it in my carbine just to see if I had the same result's ..........but then again I'm not sure you wern't limpwristing it

haha


In my mixed batches I had the only round that felt light was the 62gr SP silver bear.  It functioned well but was inconsistant on the velocity with a bunch of it feeling very weak.  The S&B (aka S0B) was as hot if not a tad hotter then the wolf but as you seen had problems getting stuck in the chamber.  The gun would still cycle completely but just without extracting the case and it would try to feed one in behind it.  

good thing I dont ride the bus

Quoted: Things that can slow cycling down causing FTE or FTF, is carbon or chamber debris. WOLF is bad about the case laquer screwing up a chamber. The steel cases are also good about screwing up an extractor.

wolf has polymer now that is eleventy billion times better then the laquer

Quoted: Quoted: Things that can slow cycling down causing FTE or FTF, is carbon or chamber debris. WOLF is bad about the case laquer screwing up a chamber. The steel cases are also good about screwing up an extractor. wolf has polymer now that is eleventy billion times better then the laquer

Then he needs to check his bolt face and extractor. Steel cases are hell on extractors! I'd stll take a look at the that chamber. A steel necked cartridge with a burr in it can SCRATCH a chrome chamber cauing all kinds of sh*t to happen. Of course, if something like that did happen, we wouldn't know about it. He wouldn't want us  to say
"WE TOLD YOU SO!"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Things that can slow cycling down causing FTE or FTF, is carbon or chamber debris. WOLF is bad about the case laquer screwing up a chamber. The steel cases are also good about screwing up an extractor. wolf has polymer now that is eleventy billion times better then the laquer Then he needs to check his bolt face and extractor. Steel cases are hell on extractors! I'd stll take a look at the that chamber. A steel necked cartridge with a burr in it can SCRATCH a chrome chamber cauing all kinds of sh*t to happen. Of course, if something like that did happen, we wouldn't know about it. He wouldn't want us  to say "WE TOLD YOU SO!"

Not sure he is having any issues but I will say that the wolf is made with a fairly cheap soft steal.

I dont think its the wolf

Quoted: Not sure he is having any issues but I will say that the wolf is made with a fairly cheap soft steal. I dont think its the wolf

That leaves only one probable cause then - the long, haired, tattooed, limp-wristed hippie behind the gun!


Acman, let us know if you find the problem. All BS aside, I would like to know what it is causing the FTEs. I haven't jacked with ARs in a long time and am just now getting back into them in a small way. All cuz someone sold me a really nice RRA lower!

Quoted: Things that can slow cycling down causing FTE or FTF, is carbon or chamber debris. NO chance of that with jeff's rifle bro.....he would have been STFA in the military his rifle is spotless compared to any of mine WOLF is bad about the case laquer screwing up a chamber. Polymer you can tell the dif by looking at it The steel cases are also good about screwing up an extractor.

I'm still not sure I buy into this for the simple fact it's soft steel that's used on the cases but I keep 2 complete spare extractor set ups on hand just in case
Regardless once I shoot up another case of wolf through my rra upper I will have saved enough to
buy a whole new upper..... and have some change left over

I'm serious about my question about the gas system am I right or wrong
and if I am where does that leave us.........if it aint a lack of gas presure in a carbine.......then what causes them to not run on wolf.....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Things that can slow cycling down causing FTE or FTF, is carbon or chamber debris. WOLF is bad about the case laquer screwing up a chamber. The steel cases are also good about screwing up an extractor. wolf has polymer now that is eleventy billion times better then the laquer Then he needs to check his bolt face and extractor. Steel cases are hell on extractors! I'd stll take a look at the that chamber. A steel necked cartridge with a burr in it can SCRATCH a chrome chamber cauing all kinds of sh*t to happen. Of course, if something like that did happen, we wouldn't know about it. He wouldn't want us  to say "WE TOLD YOU SO!"

You didn't read my above post all of my guns run on wolf................even my 20 inch colt wich acording to what I read and how I comprehend it should have a harder time if it's that underpowered

The only ammo that caused problems was the S&B in Jeff's gun .........the wolf ran fine as did everything else he shot.......and he had quite a mix

my bushy still has the original extractor in it and its got well over 22k through it, majority has been wolf, so I don't buy into the steel being hard on extractors and chambers, the only stuck case I ever had with wolf was in my carbine, simple jerk on the charging handle and it popped out, but then I've had damn good luck with wolf since I started shooting it around 00', I'm still digging the 2 cases of it verus 1 of the American made stuff.


MLW>"<

Carbon and gunk from the cartridge are going into the gas line QUICKER than in a rifle length barrel. Unburnt powder and/or residue can clog up the gas works. Gas expansion is relieved earlier in a carbine than in a rifle. Which means more carbon/unburnt powder/gunk in the gas system.
I can't give you any other reasons off the top of my head.
Whether you use a soft steel cartridge or a hard steel cartridge, the tactile strength of steel is WAY more than brass. It may be OK, but I don't like problems with cartridges. I use lots of Wolf and other steel cased cartridges in AKs, but they do spook the livin' hell out of me in American made rifles. I shot some of the Silver Bear 62 Hps out of my Mini14 ranch and they worked fine.
EXCEPT sparks flew on ejection. From the stainless cast bolt or the forged extractor, I don't know I AIN"T gonna use anymore steel cases other than in the AKs.

I could see how a shorter barrel with the same gas system could definatly cuase some underpressuering of the sytem without it bein either enlarged in diameter(bigger gas tube and port to make it more effeiciant) or move back toward the chamber(shorten the gas system for more pressure).  This type of thing also is affected with different types of powders and weather they are slow burn or fast burn.


I have seen to many people with their $10,000+ M16's shoot notheing but wolf with more rounds then any of us could imagine to belief that the wolf is a problem

Quoted: Carbon and gunk from the cartridge are going into the gas line QUICKER than in a rifle length barrel. Unburnt powder and/or residue can clog up the gas works. Gas expansion is relieved earlier in a carbine than in a rifle. Which means more carbon/unburnt powder/gunk in the gas system. I can't give you any other reasons off the top of my head. Whether you use a soft steel cartridge or a hard steel cartridge, the tactile strength of steel is WAY more than brass. It may be OK, but I don't like problems with cartridges. I use lots of Wolf and other steel cased cartridges in AKs, but they do spook the livin' hell out of me in American made rifles. I shot some of the Silver Bear 62 Hps out of my Mini14 ranch and they worked fine. EXCEPT sparks flew on ejection. From the stainless cast bolt or the forged extractor, I don't know I AIN"T gonna use anymore steel cases other than in the AKs.

none of this has anything to do with the S&B sticking in mine.  My extractor damn near ripped the rims off trying to extract it.  everything else from wolf, silver bear, pmc, amerc, m855, xm193 was running perfect.  I had quite the cocktail that day.

A steel necked cartridge with a burr in it can SCRATCH a chrome chamber cauing all kinds of sh*t to happen. Of course, if something like that did happen, we wouldn't know about it. He wouldn't want us to say "WE TOLD YOU SO!"

Your kidding right.........no way would i do that.........i tell everyone I've been dumb enough to get bitten by the same dog 3 times "tos"......to try to save people some heartache/pain in the ass......and you think I would recomend something that would screw up their rifle.......no way...

not to mention I'm still not conviced the steel in wolf cases is that damn hard........I'f I thought it would screw up my guns I wouldn't run it in them

and nobody around hear ever agreed with me about TOS they all said I was crazy ..........well we see who was right and who was wrong don't we




My whole point to this thread is if a carbine has way more gas than it needs a slightly underpowered round should have no affect on function ......right or wrong

I'm willing to test how many rounds of wolf it takes to wear out an ejector in a 15, I'll provide the rifles and any doubters can supply that ammo.




MLW>"<

Quoted: I'm still digging the 2 cases of it verus 1 of the American made stuff. MLW>"<

Got no doubts about what you say, Brother L.  Or Jeff I.
I just ain't that damned lucky!

I have more gas then I need

mater of fact the only ammo my bushy had problems with is that natec shit, guy gave me a bunch one time and I couldn't make it through a mag without a bunch of FTE and FTC.


MLW>"<>

Quoted: I have more gas then I need

I've got a bit built up, I'm letting it out a little at a time, trying to spead the wealth.


MLW>"<

Brother L said ejector!!!!!! That could be the problem and not the extractor!!!!!! Check and see if the spring/plunger on the bolt is fouled up!
Acman, a carbine should run with a lesser powered round, just like a rifle should too. It should be less picky with an underpowered round than a rifle as well.

Aceman,  what about your 3' POI with your new carbine and the kentucky windage?

Quoted: Aceman,  what about your 3' POI with your new carbine and the kentucky windage?

The spray pattern is massive as well as the fall out area!
{

Quoted: Aceman,  what about your 3' POI with your new carbine and the kentucky windage?

I fixed that today brought it up to level where the rest of my fsp sit
I hope i get to test it between now and wednsday.......

Quoted: Quoted: Aceman,  what about your 3' POI with your new carbine and the kentucky windage? The spray pattern is massive as well as the fall out area! {

I just wish I still had my old 30 carbine with no rear sight nothing was safe inside a 100

Quoted: Brother L said ejector!!!!!! That could be the problem and not the extractor!!!!!! Check and see if the spring/plunger on the bolt is fouled up! jeff's gun wasn't dirty and it did it right of the bat with S&B read his guns are eat off clean besides if it was a dirty gun why wouldnt it do it with any ammo..... Acman, a carbine should run with a lesser powered round, just like a rifle should too. It should be less picky with an underpowered round than a rifle as well.

Ok so we agree on something.........then what causes all these guns not to run on wolf  VODOO.....

Quoted: Quoted: Brother L said ejector!!!!!! That could be the problem and not the extractor!!!!!! Check and see if the spring/plunger on the bolt is fouled up! jeff's gun wasn't dirty and it did it right of the bat with S&B read his guns are eat off clean besides if it was a dirty gun why wouldnt it do it with any ammo..... Acman, a carbine should run with a lesser powered round, just like a rifle should too. It should be less picky with an underpowered round than a rifle as well. Ok so we agree on something.........then what causes all these guns not to run on wolf  VODOO.....

Wolf is a dirty cartridge. Gunk/carbon can foul up the gas system. Also the pressure curve on the Wolf cartridge powder may be a lot slower/faster than what the gas system was designed for on the ARs. When originally introduced, they changed the powder on the 5.56 cartridge and they had lots of problems in Viet Nam with the M-16 - all due to a different powder in the cartridge.
And when I said spring/plunger on the bolt being fouled up it was intended like f*cked up, or broke, not dirty!

ok I am sorry but this thread was started with not a damn thing to do with wolf.  my problem was brought up and it to has not a damn thing to do with wolf.  why is wolf the problem?

Quoted: I don't wory all of my guns run with wolf even my pre ban debaned  colt hbar20" rifle.......which theoretically should have more trouble running with wolf than anything since it has less gas than a carbine to start with............

According to the Chromy my old man has the wolf 55 gr out of a 16" barrel gets you around 2750 fps, the wolf 62 gr gets you about 2630 fps.....wolf isn't such crappy ammo that it won't send the damn bullet down the barrel. You know how I shoot my AR, same way I do my Mak.....fast....lol....unless I have my li'l scope on it then I take my time but either way, it's cycled every time. Those people posting ficticious threads are fucking numbnut morons. Not that I'm goin off on the Wolf haters its just that thier fuckin morons that need someone to kick them in the ass to get thier brains back up above thier shoulders, fuckin idiots.

Quoted: I shot some of the Silver Bear 62 Hps out of my Mini14 ranch and they worked fine. EXCEPT sparks flew on ejection. From the stainless cast bolt or the forged extractor, I don't know I AIN"T gonna use anymore steel cases other than in the AKs.

I think that is one of the biggest reasons I won't use steel cartridges in any gun not manufactured with steel cartridges in mind. Seeing sparks fly on a case being ejected is not good on the gun!

Quoted: ok I am sorry but this thread was started with not a damn thing to do with wolf.  my problem was brought up and it to has not a damn thing to do with wolf.  why is wolf the problem?

Because danc is a wolf hater..........and he figured out kinda where I was going with this.......if I am correct about the gas and how I comprehend it their is no way wolf or any other "underpowered" round should cause malfunctions because of lack of gas which is claimed all the time.....

Wolf is a dirty cartridge. Gunk/carbon can foul up the gas system. Danc the carbon is self limiting fact not fiction bud I've had my pre ban colt for a lllllloooooonnnnngg     time and it's never had the carbon scraped off it all i have ever done is wipe the bcg down and spray it out......hell the damn thing has rust on part's of it not to mention the old olympic arms I had I never cleaned that rifle all i would do was spray it out with wd 40 Also the pressure curve on the Wolf cartridge powder may be a lot slower/faster than what the gas system was designed for on the ARs. then why does it run fine in every ar I've shot it through and the countless ones I've seen it shot in When originally introduced, they changed the powder on the 5.56 cartridge and they had lots of problems in Viet Nam with the M-16 - all due to a different powder in the cartridge. And when I said spring/plunger on the bolt being fouled up it was intended like f*cked up, or broke, not dirty! If it was a broke part what would it have to do with the type of ammo

The S&B (aka S0B) was as hot if not a tad hotter then the wolf but as you seen had problems getting stuck in the chamber. The gun would still cycle completely but just without extracting the case and it would try to feed one in behind it.

I'd almost bet it was a case of too much presure with the S&B....making the case swell to the point it couldn't be extracted.....not positive

Quoted: The S&B (aka S0B) was as hot if not a tad hotter then the wolf but as you seen had problems getting stuck in the chamber. The gun would still cycle completely but just without extracting the case and it would try to feed one in behind it. I'd almost bet it was a case of too much presure with the S&B....making the case swell to the point it couldn't be extracted.....not positive

who knows.  all I can say is it was free and I wont use it ever again.  Besides I have had trouble with the S0B in pistols to.

Quoted: According to the Chromy my old man has the wolf 55 gr out of a 16" barrel gets you around 2750 fps, the wolf 62 gr gets you about 2630 fps.....wolf isn't such crappy ammo that it won't send the damn bullet down the barrel.

There's your velocities on Wolf ammo from someone I would trust - Rat's dad. No I don't hate Wolf - I have said I use it my AKs quite a bit. Steel cases are the rule in Comblock nations, especially for AKs.
I will repeat, I don't like steel cases in other rifles or handguns. I've used Chinese 308 steel cartridges years ago in an M1A and had some funky stuff happen. Nothing broke, but I had ejection and feed problems.
In a 9mm pistol I saw Wolf ammo lock up the chamber and slide. I got it out - not my gun - for the guy and told him not to use the lacquered steel ammo in his gun. I actually bent a 1/4" brass rod knocking it out of the chamber.
If you've had good luck with Wolf - good for you. I've not had any experience with the new coated Wolf ammo, it may be OK.
But I'm not going to buy it to use in my most of my guns. I've known of other people having problems with it in handguns, seen it a few times, and just decided it ain't worth it to use it in my rifles. I am ONE PICKY guy with my rifles. They shoot well, better than me, and I intend to keep them functioning in top notch form.
As far as S&B ammo, I know that some of the 9mm is really hot,  made for open bolt 9mm SMGs.
I've used some of the soft point ammo in a 223 bolt action, checking for accuracy, and I was not impressed. The PMP soft point seems to be really good stuff.
As far as extraction and ejection problems, sometimes it doesn't happen all at once, just every now and again then accelerates into an every shot problem. I've got a chipped extractor  (very small!) on a 700 bolt action but it still ejects the cartridge fine.  On a high pressure round, it will NOT work well.
Also, the ejector on any semiauto rifle like the AR, M14, M1 Garand, etc. - a plunger/spring setup, can cause some real funky problems sometimes. Such as ammo specific on a higher pressure round.
No BS intended Acman, or not arguing for the sake of an argument. I have to admit I like to get you going every once in a while. but I am not kidding about me  not using Wolf ammo in any of my rifles other than the AKs.
Maybe I  am just a little hard headed, not unlike some other people I know!

Quoted: Quoted: According to the Chromy my old man has the wolf 55 gr out of a 16" barrel gets you around 2750 fps, the wolf 62 gr gets you about 2630 fps.....wolf isn't such crappy ammo that it won't send the damn bullet down the barrel.   There's your velocities on Wolf ammo from someone I would trust - Rat's dad.

Awwww...Dan.....you're so sweet, hahahaha. Now I might sound pretty stupid askin this but what exactly is the laquer covered ammo? Is it the normal Wolf AK greenish with kindof some red lookin varnish around the case stuff? I'm guessing it is, I think thats the only Wolf Ammo I've ever shot out of my Mak. Now I know what the Wolf Polymer stuff is, its the grey case lookin stuff, really smooth clean lookin stuff, thats the only thing I've shot through my AR. Which has worked very well for me. And I might be off 100 fps / weight of bullet for the Wolf AR stuff. Might be a 100fps higher each. But thats pretty accurate. Regardless, the chrony will be at the range next time as well. OH....and thats the fps on a 16" barrel, a 20" barrel should get ya to the 3000 fps area. Give or take a few feet of course.

Oh and speakin of the gas systems, from everything I've read the Militairy M4 profiles, the 14.5" models, aren't exactly up to par. There's such a short distance in the gas system there that there's too much pressure or someting and that cause failures. PLUS, something to consider as well, is those weapons see alot more use than what we put ours through, even as trigger happy I get makin my barrel smoke for 15 mins is nothin compared to what our troops put thiers through. PLUS, right now they're in some pretty crappy conditions right now using "precision" type of weapons. Precision as in, they like to be clean in order to perform at 100%. And I haven't read this whole thread, I've  just scanned through it here n there so I don't know if this is a random ramble I'm postin up or if this is somethin positive for this thread.

Quoted: Quoted: According to the Chromy my old man has the wolf 55 gr out of a 16" barrel gets you around 2750 fps, the wolf 62 gr gets you about 2630 fps.....wolf isn't such crappy ammo that it won't send the damn bullet down the barrel.   There's your velocities on Wolf ammo from someone I would trust - Rat's dad. No I don't hate Wolf - I have said I use it my AKs quite a bit. Steel cases are the rule in Comblock nations, especially for AKs. I will repeat, I don't like steel cases in other rifles or handguns. I've used Chinese 308 steel cartridges years ago in an M1A and had some funky stuff happen. Nothing broke, but I had ejection and feed problems. I've seen that real recently with brass 308 ammo the sout african surplus which is suposed to be good stuff...... In a 9mm pistol I saw Wolf ammo lock up the chamber and slide. I got it out - not my gun - for the guy and told him not to use the lacquered steel ammo in his gun. I actually bent a 1/4" brass rod knocking it out of the chamber. If you've had good luck with Wolf - good for you. I've not had any experience with the new coated Wolf ammo, it may be OK. But I'm not going to buy it to use in my most of my guns. I've known of other people having problems with it in handguns, seen it a few times, and just decided it ain't worth it to use it in my rifles. I am ONE PICKY guy with my rifles. They shoot well, better than me, and I intend to keep them functioning in top notch form. As far as S&B ammo, I know that some of the 9mm is really hot,  made for open bolt 9mm SMGs. I've used some of the soft point ammo in a 223 bolt action, checking for accuracy, and I was not impressed. The PMP soft point seems to be really good stuff. As far as extraction and ejection problems, sometimes it doesn't happen all at once, just every now and again then accelerates into an every shot problem. I've got a chipped extractor  (very small!) on a 700 bolt action but it still ejects the cartridge fine.  On a high pressure round, it will NOT work well. Also, the ejector on any semiauto rifle like the AR, M14, M1 Garand, etc. - a plunger/spring setup, can cause some real funky problems sometimes. Such as ammo specific on a higher pressure round. No BS intended Acman, or not arguing for the sake of an argument. I have to admit I like to get you going every once in a while. but I am not kidding about me  not using Wolf ammo in any of my rifles other than the AKs. Maybe I  am just a little hard headed, not unlike some other people I know!

I can understand if you don't like the thought of steel cases but that's personal prefrence not something that actually casuses problems...............and I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else to shoot it although your one of the few on this form that don't shoot it in their ar's.....
whatever people want to spend their money on is cool with me it aint my money.....

I just want to discuss what's going on with peoples rifles ........since I don't think it's that underpowered......especially in a carbine......do I know everybody put's out a bad one sure do.....
but I can promise you if wolf put out that much bad ammo I would have gotten some buy now

I can't remember what war we"us" used steel cases for our amunition.......but I know it was done and from what I recall it didn't hurt a thing

One more thing........do you think the steel in ak's are better than what's in an ar    or for that matter a mini14.........

ACman, parts in the AK are pressed and forged, not cast like in ARs and Mini14s. Yeah, there is a difference in strengths as far as I am concerned. Like cintered metal on really cheap guns, castings are more prone to cracking and breaking than forged or stamped parts. Not that they do it that often. but they do. The metal cartridges you are talking about were GI issue in WWII. I had some in 45 and 30/06 years ago. I shot them, had no problems with them. Maybe I am just spooky about using steel cases. If you ever broken an extractor on a 45 or a Garand, M1carbine, or an M14, you would probably be as spooky as I am. I've broken them on 1911s several times and seen them broken on Garands and M1As. Not often, but it happens. Replacing the extractor on an M1A or Garand is a SOB of a job unless you have the bolt tool. Worth the $40 some odd bucks they get from Brownells!!!
Rat, you're Dad is probably as knowledgeable about reloading the older cartridges and firearms as I am.  He is one of the few that know about things like the 357/44 Bain&Davis!
Steel cases have to have some type of protectorant on the cartridge to keep from rusting. Lacquer was the method for years!
And Rat -
I ain't sweet - go hit on ACman, he's got a thing for you anyway!