OK, story goes like this:  I drive to NoVA from Inwood, WV 5 days a week for a decent paying job.  I've applied to a local FEDGOV agency and have an interview next week.  The starting pay for me is $7.74 less than I'm making now.  I did some math, using some cost data from AAA, as well as some good old finger and toe counting and came up with this stuff below.

( I've got 21+yrs FEDGOV, +5 point Veteran, and reinstatement eligible, so "getting in" isn't a factor other than actually being qualified for the job. )

Can anyone find mathematical fault with this?  Do these numbers make sense to anyone but me? Gas prices show no signs of letting up...ever.  Cost of the vehicle ownership and insurance aren't going to come down. And even if you do just cost per gallon vs. miles driven, you still get the same result: more miles for more money just doesn't add up.

My home time and time to play is quite precious to me. Giving up a 7mi round trip commute, 49 days off a year and a small personal business, as well as loads of time to do what I wanted before the sun goes down really, finally, hits home.  Anyway, the numbers:

Annual cost to drive is approx $0.60 per mile per national estimates (AAA [American Automobile Association]).

Current employment:
My pay here is $31.65hr x 2080hrs = $65832yr before commute.
112mi commute x 260 days = 29120mi per year
29120mi x .60 = $17472 before tolls (another $910) $18382 travel.
Subtract $65832 from $18382 = $47450 annual salary after driving. (Not including 2hrs minimum lost)
Minimum 2hrs a day x 260 days = 520hrs x $31.65hr = $16458 lost traveling.
$47450 – $16458 = $30992 before days off.
26 days leave/sick/holidays x $31.65hr = $6583.20
$30992 + $6583.20 = $37575.20 Final “pay”

Any Wage Grade 10 Job at Any Federal Facility West of the Potomac:
WG10-5 is $23.91hr x 2080hrs = $49732.80 before commute.
22mi commute x 260 days = 5720mi per year.  
5720mi x .60 = $3432yr. travel                
Subtract $49732.80 - $3432 = $46300.80 annual salary after driving (not including 1hr lost)
1hr a day x 260 days = 260hrs x $23.91 = $6216.60 lost traveling.            
$46300.80 - $6216.60 = $40084.20 before days off                                    
49days leave/sick/holidays x $23.91hr = $9372.72
$40084.20 + $9372.72 = $49456.92 Final “pay”.                                          

Now, since the wife works where I have the interview, we could share the commuting costs....more numbers:
WG10-5 is $23.91hr x 2080hrs = $49732.80 before commute.
11mi x 260 = 2860mi per year.
2860 x .60 = $1716yr travel
Subtract $49732.80 - $1716 = $48016.80 annual salary after driving (not including 1hr lost)
1hr a day x 260 days = 260hrs x $23.91 = $6216.60 lost traveling.            
$48018.80 – $6216.60 = $41800.20 before days off                                    
49days leave/sick/holidays x $23.91hr = $9372.72
$41800.20 + $9372.72 = $51172.92 Final “Pay”

Comments?

none of the numbers in the world can actually quantify your happiness...i know you have tried, but the additional time at home and with your family, plus the time you will gain with your wife in the commute are likely worth a hell of a lot more than the dollar amount assigned....

when i graduated law school i had an offer at a big firm, 6-7 year partnership track....i would have worked those 6-7 years making $100k a year, working 90-120 hours a week, so that at the end as a partner i could pull down an average of $450k annually...BUT...my kids (at the time 4 and 6mos old) would have had no idea who I was, the divorce rate in that community is astronomical, the drug and alcohol abuse rate is enormous, the preponderance of health problems is huge (high blood pressure, coronary issues, etc..).....so I walked away....i stay at home with my kids....admittedly I am fortunate enough to have a wife who makes a salary that allowed such a decision, but I don't regret it at all....I gave up the chance to be a millionare by the time I was 45 to be happy....and boy is there a difference.....i don't regret it for a second...

there is always more money if you posses the skills like you do....time, especially for yourself and with the people you truly care about, is preciously finite....

Well... can't really find fault in your math.  If it were me counting, I probably wouldnt factor in commute time as money lost... but that's only because I count commute time in frustration, and not dollars.

If the actual job itself does not bring about more stress/effort... I'd take it.  Commute distance alone is going to be a huge savings both in dollars, gray hairs and dental cost from grinding teeth (although those other factors may only apply to me).
The fact that you can save even more by carpooling with the Mrs is just a bonus.  I'm doing that now.  Went from spending way too much money and lost time taking Metro to seperate jobs... got her a job here on base and we drive in together.  Saves us a couple hundred bucks per month, and shaves off 2 hours commute time each day vs metrorail/bus.

I think at the end of the day, you'll end up with more in pocket and less hassle.

The only other thing I'd have to think about... is in regards to retirement.  If applicable, would taking the lower-wage job have a negative impact on what your pension might be?  And if so... would it be enough of an impact to warrant continuing with the wasted time/money of your current commute?

Math aside (yours is within the margin of error)...I don't have kids at home, but if you told me I could save 2 hours a day commuting to spend on the house, the yard, working with the new puppy, or sitting on the couch scratching myself, I would be inclined to take it.  But, my wife and I spend fairly conservatively, so it wouldn't hurt us too much, and it wouldn't take long to adjust...

shooter

I've only been with this company just over 2 years. There's not much involved in the retirement end with this company.  Their idea of retirement is screw you we got ours.  With their new 14 million dollar contract last year, our company profit sharing was $0 this year.  Other than the "family" going back to Pakisiranafghaniraqistanindia for 12+ people, there was no mention of profit sharing. Retirement: when your too old to work for us.  FWIW, THEIR retirement plan LOST 10% this past year.

Now, with Uncle Sugar, I've already got 21+ towards my 50+30=80.  (50yrs old+ 30Gov't Service=Retirement).  I'm 42, have 21+, so I'm looking at 15yrs or less. I've already "vested" with the FEDGOV, have 2yrs worth of income setting in their retirement program, I just need a way back in.  Retirement will be when I want it with that job, not when they want it (unless I do something stupid).

I had to factor in my travel time as income, since I gave up a home based business when I took this job.  It wasn't much money, but it was definately more than I'm making during the commute now. I was just showing how much my time was worth to me.  Even at half rate, I'm still expensive

Still, that commute time is time I could spend reloading, shooting, riding my motorcycle OTHER THAN TO WORK, or hell, even beating off in the bathroom....but it's still wasted commuting time.  



And you haven't even begun to see expensive until you've been caught beating off in traffic




 (just kidding, I've never been caught)

Listen! here is the bottom line. Let me put this in south Berkeley terms. You can stay local, not run the rat race, and be with the family and have more time to do the things you want. Why does it have to be about he numbers?  If you can financially afford to do it , do it. Listen man life is too short to sacrifice time with the family for the unappreciative devils in the city. If you're gonna live in south Berekeley then live the life there. If you have to down size the house do it, if you have to get a more economical 10 year old truck then do it. Man this world is gonna keep on crappin' on us no matter how much we make. DO NOT SELL OUT. If you gotta chance to stay close make the sacrifice and do it. If you take the very advice I have given here you will thank me someday. I will be shaking you hand in three years and hear you saying "man I wish i had done it sooner". Be a West Virginia, live our creed " Mountaineers are always free!" Enough said.

I work a FEDGOV job in the Panhandle.  My "commute" is 2.5 miles one way.  

As with most .gov facilities, my headquarters is located inside the Beltway.  I have to go down there about once every three months.  That ONE trip every quarter, is more then enough for me to NEVER work there.  You could double my salary, and it wouldn't be worth the four hour commute per day and the overall time away from "life".  Plus, travelling through both MD and DC, my guns are ENTIRELY to far away from my hip.  

I say take it if you can get it.  You know as well as I, that once you are back in, you can pretty much bounce around wherever you want to go.  There are quite a few FEDGOV jobs in the area, and more on the way.  FEMA is building a new office in Winchester, the FBI is building in Clearbrook, and ATF is adding on to their facility in Martinsburg.

Good luck with the decision.

Dan.

You might want to figure in the tax rate (federal and state) to see how that changes your numbers.

Randy

Back when I lived in Sterling I used to work in DC (State Department).  The commute was killing me, even car-pooling and using HOV lanes I was spending 3-4 hours per day on the road on a 40-mile trip in heavy traffic each direction.

Then I got a job in Chantilly only 11 miles and 20 minutes away.  I took a $10k/year pay cut to do it.  BEST DECISION I EVER MADE.

- I stopped grinding my teeth at night, and my State Department job was not nearly as stressful as my new job.

- When this occurred gas was running about $1.50/gal and I had to pay for monthly parking in a garage.  I still ended up with more money in my pocket at the end of the month even with the pay cut.

- You don't realize how important your personal time is until you suddenly get it back.  I gained back three hours per day that I was spending with my daughter, not sitting in traffic.  You can't put a price on that.

Just another thought since I've seen you posting in the survival forums: where do you want to be should another 9-11 event happen while you're at work - Loudoun County or Berkeley County?

Oh, and you need to re-run your numbers taking federal, state, and payroll taxes into account.  Remember that gas is paid for with after-tax dollars, so you can't just subtract your commuting costs for each job from your pre-tax income and run a comparison.

Put it another way: that $7.74 per hour difference is $16,100 annually before taxes.  After FICA (7.65%), federal (assuming 25% bracket), and WV state (6.5%) income taxes are paid, you'll net about $9800 after taxes annually.  So, the question becomes, does it cost more than $9800 per year to commute to the higher-paying job?  Using your numbers below:

Dulles: $0.60/mile * 112 miles/day * 260 days + $910 tolls = $18382
FedGov: $0.60/mile * 22 miles/day * 260 days + $0 tolls = $3432.

18382 - 3432 = 14950 > 9800.  You're $5,000 per year ahead after taxes just with commuting costs alone if you take the FedGov job closer to home.  If you spend the 2-3 hours per day that you're not commuting on your small business, you're coming out way ahead.

Oh, and you're welcome.

You need to calculate using net pay, after taxes come off the top -- not gross pay.  

You are paying your gas bills with net, right?

It may not change your calcs materially, but it might...

Im not reading all that shit, but commuting fucking sucks.  Thats why mine is 3 miles, but i HATE my job.  Take that for what its worth.  if itll make you happy and its worth it to you, do it.  your decision, nobody elses.

I'm not going to be much help my friend, I'm seriously considering taking a 50% pay cut to become a police officer.

Should have seen my commute this morning.  As I crossed my hallway, the dog was coming one way, the daughter the other.  I had to stand in my bedroom door for an extra 15 seconds to not trip over them.  Sux to have the "commute" time doubled.   Sorry, had to rub in the sweet working from home gig I'm in :)

Seriously, seems like the numbers aren't really even that close, ought to go with your gut.  

Good friend of mine got out of the a number of years ago, he did a job interview around DC.  Numbers were nice, job was awesome and the offer seemed forthcoming.  Got into traffic on the way out of there and called the guy from his car to tell him forget it!

Settled into Richmond and never looked back.

Quoted: I'm not going to be much help my friend, I'm seriously considering taking a 50% pay cut to become a police officer.

Yeah, but you get to watch bad guys get away with murder, and get to shoot dogs....uh, nevermind. Reverse that and even I'd make the change, but the lawyers wouldn't like that, would they.


Yes, to all who'd replied, my time is precious to me.  I was making the drive to Ft. Detrick, before I'd found my "close to home" job of 3.5mi.  The extra time I'd got to spend at the house was amazing.  I lost $3hr to make the switch from Frederick FEDGOV to Berkeley/Jefferson FEDGOV, and that was the same paygrade.  But the time I got back was worth every penny lost.  Leave at 5 til and still make it to work on time, and the reverse trip was even better.

But, that job was a dead end job, with a boss that didn't understand that if the building didn't work, neither did anyone else.  Plus the fact that for 5 years I worked there, I was on call 24/7 being the only maintenance guy.  It wasn't uncommon for the phone to ring at 2am cause someone left their keys on their desk and couldn't get back in...or their light wouldn't stay on (motion detectors don't detect motion if you're sleeping at your desk).  I was also told that if I wanted a promotion, it wouldn't be at that job.  The final straw was being told that I needed that job and was stuck there, regardless, you can't leave.  I hit my 21st year fedgov, and bailed.

I'm still on call for relatively the same stuff, but now it's an hour in, and hour back and only getting paid for the time onsite.  Uh, no thanks...my phone must have been on vibrate again.
I've gained valuable experience with this job, but that experience has shown me that this isn't the field I want to be in.  I enjoy working with my hands, building and repairing things can make even the worst of days better.  The totally destroyed system, rebuilt and running makes me indescribably happy.  Telephonically troubleshooting it on the other side of the country, hiring a contractor to do the work, and asking someone else to pay the bill once it's done ain't my cup-o-tea.  No joy in that.  

I used to do woodworking in the garage, building some pretty nice stuff.  That mutated into metalworking and a small business selling highway peg systems for a specific model of motorcycle.  My setup was half the price of the only other available system in the world.  And that included shipping.  In 2 years, I'd sold over 200 sets worldwide.  In my spare time. That spare time evaporated, as well as my business, as well as my recreational riding time.  Now I ride for work.  It's not fun anymore.  I haven't taken a recreational motorcycle ride in over a year, although I'm averaging over 15K miles a year on the bike.  That's enough.

Taxes will be lower, I'll be back to being a resident instead of a guest, and I'll get some Jimmy time back.  Just need to get hired.

I'll let everyone know when/if I get hired.

Quoted: Any Wage Grade 10 Job at Any Federal Facility West of the Potomac: WG10-5 is $23.91hr x 2080hrs = $49732.80 before commute.

Seems that you already made up your mind, but something else you may consider with your math, is that current Grade 10 step 1 pay is $25.39/hr and 10 Step 5 jobs (which is what it looks like you are indicating witht the 10-5) are $28.77/hr with locality pay.

As you may, or may not know, for the last 8 years or so, Berkeley and Jefferson Counties have been included in the DC locality pay.

OPM - DC Locality pay table

Dan.

Quoted:Seems that you already made up your mind, but something else you may consider with your math, is that current Grade 10 step 1 pay is $25.39/hr and 10 Step 5 jobs (which is what it looks like you are indicating witht the 10-5) are $28.77/hr with locality pay. As you may, or may not know, for the last 8 years or so, Berkeley and Jefferson Counties have been included in the DC locality pay. OPM - DC Locality pay table Dan.

Nope.  Jeff/Berk isn't in the DC scale for Wage Grade workers.  I just left USDA in 2006, and we weren't then.  Now, GS on the other hand, is in the DC scale.  WG doesn't get locality pay, GS does.  WG workers are the ones who do the work, the GS are the ones setting around wondering why it's not getting done fast enough

Believe me, that's what I found out the hard way when I first came over.  The interviewer told me it was, but after signing on told me it wasn't.  Lets just say we re-did the paperwork after I ripped it up.  She knew she lied, and I'd caught her in it.  There was a new "contract" done that got me more money than I'd have made usually for the first 2 years, but still maxed me out at a 10-5.  But leaving Frederick as a 10-5, starting at USDA at a 8-1 was more of a shock.  That got fixed fast as well, with back pay.
That's why I lost the money coming over the bridge. But at least I now know the grass isn't always greener....
In case you're looking for it:"real pay scale" from the
Maryland WG page

Quoted: In case you're looking for it:"real pay scale" Maryland WG page

Wow, big difference between GS and WG.  I falsely ASSumed you were talking about GS.  Odd that GS gets DC locality pay here and not WG.  Learn something every day.  

Dan.

Quoted: Quoted: In case you're looking for it:"real pay scale" Maryland WG page Wow, big difference between GS and WG. I falsely ASSumed you were talking about GS.  Odd that GS gets DC locality pay here and not WG.  Learn something every day.   Dan.

Ain't it tho.  Point of contention for the workers for many years.  Also the reason a lot of folk crossed the river in the AM.  Not so much anymore with all the FEDGOV opening up over here. GS jobs fill fast, and lots of applicants.  WG, not so much.

Aren't you supposed to be working?

Quoted: Aren't you supposed to be working?

I am, but I fall in this category:

the GS are the ones setting around wondering why it's not getting done fast enough

Dan.

Hey Millerized, Have ya got something against happy for a change.   Make sure you got the job first.  Just think how happy you will be at the range.  :)  :)  :)
 Opp's I allmost forgot that you will be with the family a little more.

Quoted: Hey Millerized, Have ya got something against happy for a change.   Make sure you got the job first.

Yep, interview.  Not optimistic, but I have a job now.  Not like I'm out anything for trying.

Just think how happy you will be at the range.  :)  :)  :)  Opp's I allmost forgot that you will be with the family a little more.

Herein lies the problem

Tomorrow, 1PM.  Current boss didn't talk to me at all yesterday after I told him.  I respect the guy, that's why I told him I was interviewing.  He's fine this morning, even asked me about driving times, hours, pay.  I'm still one of two that have applied for my current job, but he hasn't moved on it.  The thing closed 2 weeks ago, he's the deciding authority, but he hasn't moved.   Kinda wonder what he's waiting for.  I'd like to have both sets of data in front of me to make my decision, but.... $48K or $85K, but definately over $65K......guess he's waiting to see what I'm going to do.

Tomorrow, 1PM.  

Well, Hell.  FWIW, I think I blew the interview.  My terminology and their terminology didn't seem to mesh.  He'd ask for an apple, I'd describe a McIntosh.  He'd ask for a blue, I'd describe an indigo.  While we were on the same sheet, I don't think I'd done well.  One question on shunt trip breakers I blew.  I knew what I was talking about, but I couldn't get my mind and mouth off of an ajustable trip breaker and setting it up.  Hosed that big time.  Also, a question that described the number of power carrying conductors in a 6 circuit setup: 1 dedicated, 1 isolated, 4 normal.  I said 6, cause I know "power carrying conductors" as the main feeds....NOT INCLUDING THE NEUTRALS.  My terminology is "current carrying conductors"....apples, McIntosh,,,,blue, indigo.  I blew it even further with the "do you know what a networked neutral" is....I know them as shared or "common" neutrals.  Again, apples.... (hint: number of "power carrying conductors" is 9....same for current or shared, but terminology got me flustered)

No matter, as much as I'd liked to have done well, I don't think I did.  I have a job, and by the looks of things they're completing the hiring of my "new" old job.  Instead of contracted, I'll be "on board" with the big boys.  According to the letter, I'll be completing the application along with being presented with an offer this Friday.....
Hmmm.....going to be an interesting week.

Anyway, I don't lose a paycheck, I know now to expand my vocabulary on what I do know with "current" (no pun intended) terminology, and keeping my eye out for new and exciting things in the employment world.

C'est la Vie.

Quoted: Well, Hell.  FWIW, I think I blew the interview.  My terminology and their terminology didn't seem to mesh.

I would send the company/interviewer a thank you note and ask them if they have any additional questions, that you would be happy to have a follow-on interview and answer any additional questions.  He'd ask for an apple, I'd describe a McIntosh, isn't always bad, at least you reply with a pear  It depends on your competition and follow-up notes or phone calls go a long way for a second shot/landing the job.

Best of luck,

--Olivers_AR

AND another interesting note: Just received a call that I'd made ANOTHER certification list for ANOTHER job at the same location, meaning I'm qualified to interview for it. Different job, probably different interviewers....and I know the guy I'd be working for.

(I wonder if he remembers me)

Damn, when it rains it pours.  

Quoted: AND another interesting note: Just received a call that I'd made ANOTHER certification list for ANOTHER job at the same location, meaning I'm qualified to interview for it. Different job, probably different interviewers....and I know the guy I'd be working for. (I wonder if he remembers me) Damn, when it rains it pours.

Well, good luck on that.

Quoted: Different job, probably different interviewers....and I know the guy I'd be working for. (I wonder if he remembers me) Damn, when it rains it pours.

Maybe that'll be a good thing. If he knows you and your work, that ought to be a plus in your favor.

I left the company you're subbed to, since my supervisor went out of his way to 'poison' any internal
interviews that I went on, so that he could keep me. No way to prove it now, of course.

Jokes on him now though, since I'm now making way over what they'd been paying....

Would you hire this guy?  (damn, I hate ties!)

Final update on this event....:

Interviewed and got the "suit and tie" job.  Accepted their low offer, since it was higher than what I was making, but still not what I wanted.  I still needed a job, but wanted something either closer or more money. Still not enough to make the drive a career drive, but nice.  That was Last Tuesday.  I start July 7th with Lockheed Martin driving 56mi one way. (same job, same building, different boss than on the 6th)

Interviewed and got the "FEDGOV" job. Took the second one I interviewed for and accepted the GS-9 Engineering position. I accept that job tomorrow.  I start July 7th with the Veterans Administration.

Now I have to tell the currently future boss I'm not going to be here on my first day.

May you live in interesting times......yeah, about that.

The VA job is local (M-burg)?

I took a GS-13 job with FEMA because well I get to do this during the day.

Well not exactly but I take the train in and it works out well.

If my wife was not a consultant I would love to move somewhere making GS11/12 pay but we just bought a house.  GS-13 starting out is not a bad thing (7 years military counts towards retirement )

Do you get Locality pay with the GS-9 Job?

ffh

Quoted: I took a GS-13 job with FEMA because well I get to do this during the day. Well not exactly but I take the train in and it works out well. If my wife was not a consultant I would love to move somewhere making GS11/12 pay but we just bought a house.  GS-13 starting out is not a bad thing (7 years military counts towards retirement ) Do you get Locality pay with the GS-9 Job? ffh

Yes, locality pay.  Yes, local.  Yes, the military counts, as well as other federal service.  I'm over 21yrs fed service.  That extra time pays off in 8hrs of leave per pay and that much closer to my "80".  

I call to accept the position today.  The "talk" with the current boss went well, him understanding and being a great guy about it.  I'm going to miss him.

Hey Miller - congrats on the GS job.  Being local and having more free time will more then make up for any "on paper" pay loss.  My guess with the less commuting time and less stress, you will come out close financially and possibly live longer.  

If you are going to be working out of the VA Center - hit me up and I'll come have lunch with you.  I'm in a building REAL close by.

Dan.

Quoted: Hey Miller - congrats on the GS job.  Being local and having more free time will more then make up for any "on paper" pay loss.  My guess with the less commuting time and less stress, you will come out close financially and possibly live longer.   If you are going to be working out of the VA Center - hit me up and I'll come have lunch with you.  I'm in a building REAL close by. Dan.

Yeah, but riding to work with the wife may negate that.....





Seems Subway is the place to go

Just got the "what would it take for you to stay" interview.

Nope, can't change my mind.  Too much invested in my future to turn around now.

Wow....feel....head...swelling....ego....inflating........
pop...no thanks.

That was a weird feeling, even weirder I decided to keep going in the direction I'm traveling.  Yeah, I know the normal end result of staying, but I just didn't even consider it once I got the other call.

I had a private company offer me 10K more to stay instead of taking the .gov job.  Glad I kept with the plan.  The contract was canceled after I left.

I think you will be happy there.

Quoted: Just got the "what would it take for you to stay" interview.

A: If you could have afforded to pay me that amount in the first place, why didn't you?  Then I wouldn't have gone looking for another job.