I originally stopped by here to see if I could find a dealer willing to deal with a Californian...  I want an LMT lower while they're still legal.  I already found one and paid dearly for it.  If you don't know how tough this is, even when you're trying to find something completely legal.  Being told here, and on other forums "Leave CALI," "Move out," "go to a free state," etc...  Being told by dealers time and again "I won't ship to CA," "I don't do business with Californians," etc...  It's really hard being an enthusiast here.

Anyways, we know that you've got some messed up legislation going on, patterned after our not so beloved SB-23, except even more prohibitive.  Well, I wish you all a lot of luck in fighting it.  Many people said "It'll never pass" and others said "I don't really care"...

Since SB-23 was enacted, we've also had the .50 BMG ban, as I know many of you here probably have heard.  Nobody fought it.  Nobody fought the banning of bolt action rifles. Unlike SB-23, which drove prices of assault rifles and magazines all across the country insane, the deadline to buy fifties passed with little fanfare.  Not a big deal, even to the majority of AR or AK guys.  Nobody cared.  What it did was open the window to a much larger picture.  The .50 BMG ban outlaws even bolt action rifles.  Even single shot ones.  All that needs to be done is another cartridge to be deemed "too powerful for recreational use" and there goes the .510 DTC, the .416 Barrett, 408 CheyTac, .338 Lapua, .458 WinMag, etc...  None of these other cartridges have been banned in California, yet, but I do easily see these calibers dropping off in the not so distant future.

Well, I didn't mean to rant, and I didn't really need an LMT dealer to sell me a lower anymore, although I am a LMT dealer and order stuff through them, they're not shipping lowers here, won't disassemble them or ship stripped lowers.  Soon they may not be able to ship to any of you here.  Fight, put your own personal time into doing something positive.... write/call/visit your state officials... congressmen and assemblymen... whomever will listen.  I hope you don't get to feel the descrimination many thousands of Californians feel when we see stuff that is legal here, Souther Ohio Gun's .22 RPK Trainer for instance, but someone just won't send because they don't feel like dealing with us.  

I sincerely hope you people tackle this before it gets passed.  Good luck!

Move to a free state!  Did you think that maybe, just maybe, the reason that nobody will ship you the legal definition of a firearm over the border into California is because they're afraid that a state that changes their gun legality more than the wind changes direction might enact legistlation that'd make their actions illegal?  The results could be disasterous to the business owner.  Jail time, huge fines, huge legal fees, etc., are just not worth the risks.

I had a guy ask me if I'd sell him, "Parts" to a high capacity magazine.  I found out later, that while questionable, his quest to buy, "Parts" to repair a legally posessed magazine was likely NOT illegal, but it's definitely not something I was willing to risk and I returned his money.  He attempted to slander me since I'd said that I'd ship them anywhere that they were legal to own, but I meant states like New York, NOT California.

Illinois sucks, but if it was anything like California, I'd pick up and leave immediately.  I mean leave my job, my family, my school, everything, and go.  I'm slowly working on leaving anyway, but the laws in California are totally unacceptable.  Stop wasting your money trying to afford to be a firearms enthusiast in a commune and get the fuck out!

On the contrary, I changed Centerfire Systems' mind on shipping the .22 Trainer AKs here, and we've been getting lower receivers from a number of sources...  As for the propaganda that you're throwing around, it's just uninformed nonsense.  Any FFL who doesn't pay attention to laws shouldn't even be in the business.  Our laws haven't stopped me from getting my LMT lower MRP/CQB, and it won't stop me from getting a S&W MP15T...  sure I have to keep them with 10rnd fixed mags, but that's not the end of the world... I have plenty of registered toys I can do anything I want with.

Regardless, you can act that way towards me, and if it makes you feel better, good for you. I wouldn't wish the same upon you though.  There are a quite a number of people outside our state that pay attention to the law and have provided us with what is still legal.  I'm certainly glad there are quite a few firearms enthusiasts that don't have your attitude...

So if HB2414 passes, you're moving out of the state?  Or are you destroying/selling/turning in your magazines and assault rifles?  Certainly if your bill passes, you'll have to, and it'll be much worse than California.  And WTF is a Firearms Owner's ID card?  At least we're not required to have Firearms Owner's ID cards here thank god...  

This dialogue is akin to Star Jones and Ted Kennedy calling each other fat.

it is true the Mayor of Chicago for several years has attempted to strip us of our Second Amendment rights. It is also true however that we have repelled this for as many years as I can remember and with the grace of God, we will defeat the efforts of Richard Daley again this legislative season.

Illinois is in no way near as bad as shape as California. Heading in that direction? Perhaps, but we still have way to much "fly-over-country" blood running through our veins. Chicago is no doubt a liberal wasteland of sin, but that is merely Chicago. The vast majority of Illinois is Republican.
California is lost and unfortunately through the efforts of hysterical Baby Boomers like Nancy Pelosi, Dianne Feinstein, Bill Lockyer and Gray Davis to name a few, it has become the result of Liberal idealism. California is the after-effect, or hang-over of treasonist anti-American Babyboomers who unllike every other generation in America, have not outgrown their selfish teenage ideals. Everytime I here the Steven Stills song "Chicago" I want to puke. The line in the song that cries out "we can change the world" makes me cringe as I know for fact that everytime I see a California Politician speak on Fox News or the like, that they have infact changed the world, and not for the better.

I mean no disrepect to my good American Babyboomer firends, every generation has assholes and traitors, but Babyboomers had Jane Fonda, another Californian.

Power outages, rampant crime, drugs, homosexuality, the epi-center of the American sex business, Hollywood, gun-bans, etc.

Illinois is still a long way from the pit California has slid in to. many parts of Illinois still fly the Confederate Flag. It is nowhere near uncommon to see the Stars and Bars on any random pickup truck just south of I-80.

I empathize for the cause of Americans stuck behind the lines of California for family reasons or other commitments that prohibit them from leaving, but we in Illinois are not in the same  boat or even the same pond as California. Hopefully Illinois will get the re-districting it needs to strip Chicago of it's stranglehold over the state.

Rant switch off

I sincerely hope you people tackle this before it gets passed. Good luck!

Thanks for the encouragement!  

Why are you guys jumping on a friend and ally that comes here with a cautionary tale of how not to lose our gun rights?

California is a lot like Illinois in that the large cities have dictated the laws and those in the less urban areas have to put up with it.  Much like the influence Chicago has that everyone south of 80 has to put up with here in Illinois.

Sorry Xenophobe.

You offered an encouraging word to us to keep our resolve up and what do you get?

A couple of tag team blowhards with low self esteem.


Thanks for giving us a glimpse of our possible future.

JR

Quoted: many parts of Illinois still fly the Confederate Flag. It is nowhere near uncommon to see the Stars and Bars on any random pickup truck just south of I-80.

Wow,

While I agree that we are still quite a way from the California situation, things aren't as rosy as you might think.  We have our shit-head City of Chicago suck up Governor in office now because we had:

1.  A highly corrupt Republican Governor
2.  The City of Chicago which is almost completely Democrat voting for the bastard
3.  Chicago Mayor willing to back anyone that will support his agenda
4.  While Daley is pushing the minorities out of the city, they end up in the surrounding counties and therefor alter the voting of those counties and in turn turn a larger portion of the state into anti-gun voting Democrats.

But back to my Wow.  You seriously lost me with the Confederate Flag.  I am quite confused on how a symbol of injustice, hatred and years of oppression has ANYTHING to do with your self proclaimed rant other than to let any and all that read your post that you think the ideals that that particular flag represents are all right.  

And like racecar stated.  Way to beat a guy down that did nothing more than to come in and stand up and say fight for your 2nd Amendment Rights.  It is easy to sit back and say "Fuck Cali, move the hell out", but stop and think.  It just isn't that easy.  Not unless you happen to be independently wealthy.  Xenophobe is most likely a hard working stiff like the vast majority of the rest of us with family close by, and a "hopefully" secure job.  

Xenophobe, I for one thank you for your insight, and AM doing my part by writing, calling and e-mailing my State Representatives and Senators urging them to block the current legislation.  I also renewed my NRA membership early and made an extra monetary donation.  

Quoted: But back to my Wow.  You seriously lost me with the Confederate Flag.  I am quite confused on how a symbol of injustice, hatred and years of oppression has ANYTHING to do with your self proclaimed rant other than to let any and all that read your post that you think the ideals that that particular flag represents are all right.

The flag does represent injustice, hatred, and oppression, of the South, FROM the North.  The south had some balls to do something about it.  It was a noble cause, reguardless of the outcome.  The end result was a loss of state soverignty on a level not seen before, or since.  Of course, the winners write the history books, and so you have the flag representing racism and hatred.  That's the reason southerners fly the flag, to remember a time when the federal government didn't hold all the cards.

Quoted: So if HB2414 passes, you're moving out of the state?  Or are you destroying/selling/turning in your magazines and assault rifles?  Certainly if your bill passes, you'll have to, and it'll be much worse than California.  And WTF is a Firearms Owner's ID card?  At least we're not required to have Firearms Owner's ID cards here thank god...

If HB2414 passes without a grandfather clause, I would store my prohibited firearms out of state for a temporary period until I could transfer my job out of here and be gone.  I wouldn't wait around for our rights to come back.

This state has a cancer that cannot be solved easily.

Illinois is a solidly Democrat state.

On the Federal level, we have 2 far left leaning Democrat Senators, Durbin and Obama. These two can be unhesitantly relied upon to consistantly promote an anti-gun agenda and deliver the anti-2nd Amendment votes in the Senate. Both are in the hip-pocket of the well financed international gun owner control lobby. They are ardent gun control activists with a strong demeanor towards forced civilian disarmament.

In the 2000 and 2004 national elections Illinois was a blue state. Illinois voters, both living and deceased, cast their majority ballots for AlGorsky and Komrade Kerry respectively. In the upcoming 2008 presidential elections, Illinois' electoral votes will go for whoever is the Democratic nominee.    

The Mayor of Chicago is a corrupt Democrat who's unparalleled pro gun control public record is the envy of the socialist world. His paramount influence in Chicago spills over into Cook County and most of the liberal suburbs surrounding the Chicago area. His overall political impact on downstate Illinois is notable and disproportionate to the geographic area he rules. And he keeps getting elected over and over and over again.

At the state level, our Governor is a hard core Marxist and behaves in a quite that predictable fashion. Nothing more need be said about him that hasn't been elaborated here before. Both state Houses of our Congress is controlled by a solid Democrat majority. Even our past Republican Governors are imbued with a liberal matrix that leaves little choice but between corrupt Republican Lite (RINOS) and the consistently liberal/socialist Democrats.

Our only counterbalance, with regard to the above mentioned, are the downstate representatives who have a distinct tendency to be somewhat conservative and more in tune with their down home constituants. Geographically speaking, Illinois is a Republican state. But demographically, in terms of shear voting numbers and blocks where it counts, Illinois is a solidly Democrat state.

Bear in mind that most of the citizens of Illinois passively approve of the FOI card bureaucratic system and state gun owner registration. Most of the people in Illinois want a prohibition on semi automatic guns possessed by law abiding Illinois residents. But when it comes to actually being counted on the issue, I mean those individuals that take a stand either way for or against gun owner control, the pro gun voices are more loudly heard in Springfield than any other lobby.

And that is why the socialists are having a hard time getting HB2414 passed in this legislative session.    

Quoted: This dialogue is akin to Star Jones and Ted Kennedy calling each other fat.

+1. I was thinking of the pot and the kettle, but your description is better.
Hey Tim, we live in one of the most fucked-up states there is for gun rights. How can you be giving this guy shit because he lives in CA?

As an ex-Californian, thanks for the information. I was fortunate enough to leave Cali at the end of 1999, before the 2000 ban. The Illinois state legislature and Governorship used to be solidly Republican, but not any longer...we can't even count on the Republicans now as much as the down-state Democrats so party affiliation doesn't have much to do with the 2nd Amendment any longer.  Chicago's reach seems to grow each and every year. We must be ever-vigilant. Thanks again.

The flag does represent injustice, hatred, and oppression, of the South, FROM the North. The south had some balls to do something about it. It was a noble cause, reguardless of the outcome. The end result was a loss of state soverignty on a level not seen before, or since. Of course, the winners write the history books, and so you have the flag representing racism and hatred. That's the reason southerners fly the flag, to remember a time when the federal government didn't hold all the cards.

Bravo how accurate above!

I also just want to add my 2cents  that the north had more racists than the south did back then also.

Quoted: The flag does represent injustice, hatred, and oppression, of the South, FROM the North. The south had some balls to do something about it. It was a noble cause, regardless of the outcome. The end result was a loss of state sovereignty on a level not seen before, or since. Of course, the winners write the history books, and so you have the flag representing racism and hatred. That's the reason southerners fly the flag, to remember a time when the federal government didn't hold all the cards. Bravo how accurate above! I also just want to add my 2cents  that the north had more racists than the south did back then also.

I completely agree with you all.  To further completely hijack this thread, I guess my comments were not as clearly written as they should have been.  Yes, the North was far more racist.  A brief look at history clearly shows that the KKK for one started up North and moved South with the Carpet Baggers.  

Anyway, I guess my point is that holding on to a flag as a symbol of what is lost. to remember "When the government didn't hold all the cards."  is a decent sentiment.  To me at least,  it is akin to saying we should still fly the Swastika flag since for hundreds of years was considered a symbol of power by many different peoples.  Including the US Army.  However, to most, even those informed, the negativity associated with flying these flags far outweighs the good it may have once represented.  

The Civil War is long over.  There is not one single sole alive today that was around when it was fought.  Time to let it go.  Fly a "Don't Tread on Me" flag if you must.  But in today's modern world, the image of the "Stars and Bars" only brings up one VERY NEGATIVE connotation.  

But, one of the greatest things in America is that we can agree to disagree.  Opinions are like ass holes.  Everyone has one and they all stink at one time or another.  

Quoted: Hey Tim, we live in one of the most fucked-up states there is for gun rights. How can you be giving this guy shit because he lives in CA?

We have FOIDs and cannot carry a loaded firearm in public.  How does this compare to a state that, while they have CCW, they have a feature based assault weapons ban to include magazines?

I'm sorry but I fail to see the comparison.  I despise the fact that we cannot carry here, but compared to Kommiefornia, this is UTOPIA.

Quoted: Quoted: The flag does represent injustice, hatred, and oppression, of the South, FROM the North. The south had some balls to do something about it. It was a noble cause, regardless of the outcome. The end result was a loss of state sovereignty on a level not seen before, or since. Of course, the winners write the history books, and so you have the flag representing racism and hatred. That's the reason southerners fly the flag, to remember a time when the federal government didn't hold all the cards. Bravo how accurate above! I also just want to add my 2cents  that the north had more racists than the south did back then also. I completely agree with you all.  To further completely hijack this thread, I guess my comments were not as clearly written as they should have been.  Yes, the North was far more racist.  A brief look at history clearly shows that the KKK for one started up North and moved South with the Carpet Baggers.   Anyway, I guess my point is that holding on to a flag as a symbol of what is lost. to remember "When the government didn't hold all the cards."  is a decent sentiment.  To me at least,  it is akin to saying we should still fly the Swastika flag since for hundreds of years was considered a symbol of power by many different peoples.  Including the US Army.  However, to most, even those informed, the negativity associated with flying these flags far outweighs the good it may have once represented.   The Civil War is long over.  There is not one single sole alive today that was around when it was fought.  Time to let it go.  Fly a "Don't Tread on Me" flag if you must.  But in today's modern world, the image of the "Stars and Bars" only brings up one VERY NEGATIVE connotation.   But, one of the greatest things in America is that we can agree to disagree.  Opinions are like ass holes.  Everyone has one and they all stink at one time or another.

Your post proves that you just don't get it, and you never will.  The civil war's impact on this country still exists very strongly today, and it will not disappear with the flag.

If the northern country was as liberal as the state we live in, you could probably bet on another civil war.

Simply trying to point out that Illinois is perhaps on the track of California, but not even close to as bad as California. I don't think I jumped down anyone's throat.

To be truthful, the Confederate flag was simply the battle flag of the Confederate Army and was never adopted as the flag of the Confederacy.

The Boston Public School system did not integrate until 1976 and the major race riots of the 1960's were in the North, i.e. Chicago, Detroit, Oakland CA.

To say the South represented anymore racial hatred than the North is simply silly.

Sorry for pissing you guys off, I just don't see Illinois as California.

Quoted: Quoted: The flag does represent injustice, hatred, and oppression, of the South, FROM the North. The south had some balls to do something about it. It was a noble cause, regardless of the outcome. The end result was a loss of state sovereignty on a level not seen before, or since. Of course, the winners write the history books, and so you have the flag representing racism and hatred. That's the reason southerners fly the flag, to remember a time when the federal government didn't hold all the cards. Bravo how accurate above! I also just want to add my 2cents  that the north had more racists than the south did back then also. I completely agree with you all.  To further completely hijack this thread, I guess my comments were not as clearly written as they should have been.  Yes, the North was far more racist.  A brief look at history clearly shows that the KKK for one started up North and moved South with the Carpet Baggers.   Anyway, I guess my point is that holding on to a flag as a symbol of what is lost. to remember "When the government didn't hold all the cards."  is a decent sentiment.  To me at least,  it is akin to saying we should still fly the Swastika flag since for hundreds of years was considered a symbol of power by many different peoples.  Including the US Army.  However, to most, even those informed, the negativity associated with flying these flags far outweighs the good it may have once represented.   The Civil War is long over.  There is not one single sole alive today that was around when it was fought.  Time to let it go.  Fly a "Don't Tread on Me" flag if you must.  But in today's modern world, the image of the "Stars and Bars" only brings up one VERY NEGATIVE connotation.   But, one of the greatest things in America is that we can agree to disagree.  Opinions are like ass holes.  Everyone has one and they all stink at one time or another.

You compare the Nazi Swastika to the Confederate battle flag? I'm sorry, at what point did the Confederacy execute 8 million people in ovens and gas chambers? Do you realize France supported the South? France was afraid the Federal Government would push through the South straight into Mexico which was currently being occupied by France, so who was like Nazi Germany? Conversely, Britain also supporetd the South and had Lee not f*cked up at Gettysburg, Britain and France would have joined the American Civial War on the side of the South ensuring an almost positive victory for the South. Do you realize it was a very small minority of the South's most wealthiest families that owned slaves? Beyond being whipped and beaten is there much difference between the slavery of the past and the current situation with migrant Mexican workers? Do you eat vegetables? If so, chances are they were grown by a large corporate farm that uses illegal Mexicans in less than excellent working conditions to pick them. Any textiles you wear were most likely made by an 8 year old in Bangledash that hasn't eaten in two days. It really pisses me off when people compare OUR country to Nazi Germany. I guess the public school system and folks like Jesse Jackson and Ward Churchill are quite effective in passing out the Kool-Aid.

The Confederate battle flag represents the states of the Confederacy (the 13 stars) on a background that was designed after the St. Andrew's Christian Flag. Printed in Red, White and Blue for obvious reasons.

It's a sick shame that the vast majority of this country has been spoon fed enough public school BS to believe it is ok for a President of the United States to attack half the country. The average Confederate soldier owned no slaves, he simply fought for his home. He wouldn't idly sit by and watch the federal government march into his backyard or burn his farm or city to the ground.

I don't advocate slavery or one man having rights that another man has not. But I will never jump on the "Lincoln freed the slaves" bandwagon. Lincoln needed a reason to attack the South and in his own words proclaimed he would have kept slavery legal if he could have kept the union together. Do you realize how many Black regiments that fought gallantly for the South? Do you realize there were also Irish Regiments and Cherokee Indian regiments fighting for the South?

South Carolina succeeded in 1860
Virginia in 1861 causing Union troops the cross the Potomoc, starting the war

Emancipation Proclomation wasn't written until 1863.

Why did it take Mr. Lincoln two years to officialy "free" the slaves?

I will turn the rant switch off now, and I never meant to dump on the guy from California, just my opinion that California being the model for American Socialism, it has yet to spread entirely to Illinois. I have spent some time in California, how many of you guys have even been there?

California is weird and lost. One week in the Bay Area or L.A. and you guys will be screaming to return to the Liberal world of Illinois.

Sorry California dude, you were saying encouraging words, if my comments were harsh, I apologize.

And for the damn record, I DO NOT support slavery or racism, but I do support a soverign Christian nation that is above tamperment from the over-reaching arms of a Fedefral Government gone haywire.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of independence, self reliance, regional pride and Southern righteous and cultural forbearance. This is what that flag represents to millions of normal well adjusted, patriotic Americans. Up until somewhat recently, it used to be that only fringe black socialist radical groups, assorted "intellectual" collegiate Communists and other such socially disruptive riff raff castigated the Confederate flag.

Now, any individual or group that wishes to loudly proclaim how politically correct and "racially tolerant" they are jumps on the anti-flag grandstand. Much like common, addle headed sheeple they be. They are akin to trained seals in a public government school. They only regurgitate what is taught to them by their liberal teachers and corrupt leftwing media outlets without any independent thought or research. Any basic reflection of accurate historic fundamentalism is tossed away in favor of the new symbolic revisionist meaning of the Stars & Bars.  

The anti-Confederate flag mania, which is still only harbored by a comparative small minority of the US population, represents a certain and odious kind of thought control whereupon the mere proper symbolic representation of independence and fortitude is wiped away in favor abstract "tolerance" and "sensitivity." Then fill in the blanks provided to you by your betters.

Whenever I hear someone denigrate the Confederate flag as a symbol of a singular "negative connotation" or some other knee jerk, subjective meaningless term, I know they've been spoon fed the new ideal that rugged individualism, independence, unity, and faithfull adherence to state's rights is an egregious concept that will not be tolerated and should be debased at every chance opportunity.

This is a shame because the Confederate flag is as American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie. The youthfull PC crowd thinks they are striking a cord for racial equality and diversity. They think they have some type of self righteous moral superiority over traditional America. But in reality, they are really social agitators doing the bidding of their revionist liberal masters who wish to nullify any social unity that is left in these United States.

Aaaah youth, why is it wasted on the young?    

Quoted: Quoted: Hey Tim, we live in one of the most fucked-up states there is for gun rights. How can you be giving this guy shit because he lives in CA? We have FOIDs and cannot carry a loaded firearm in public.  How does this compare to a state that, while they have CCW, they have a feature based assault weapons ban to include magazines? I'm sorry but I fail to see the comparison.  I despise the fact that we cannot carry here, but compared to Kommiefornia, this is UTOPIA.

I would hardly call Illinois a gun owners utopia, but if that's how you feel, that's fine. As far as CA having a CCW, how easy do you think it is for the average guy to get licensed?
I was just referring to your advice to the guy to leave CA because of their onerous gun laws when ours are nearly as bad.

Quoted: Quoted: So if HB2414 passes, you're moving out of the state?  Or are you destroying/selling/turning in your magazines and assault rifles?  Certainly if your bill passes, you'll have to, and it'll be much worse than California.  And WTF is a Firearms Owner's ID card?  At least we're not required to have Firearms Owner's ID cards here thank god...   If HB2414 passes without a grandfather clause, I would store my prohibited firearms out of state for a temporary period until I could transfer my job out of here and be gone.  I wouldn't wait around for our rights to come back. This state has a cancer that cannot be solved easily.

man, i'm glad that our forefathers didn't have that sentiment.  "i'm not gonna fight for my God given rights-i'm outta here!"  and it's a good thing Abraham Lincoln didn't have that pussy fucking attitude "Well, now let's not get into a quarrel here-you guys can just have your own country" sounds like al fucking gore, now if the south gets their own country-texas becomes its own country-the western states might form their own alliance-now guess what.  instead of America-you now live in New Europe with even less pull than Europe over the rest of the world.  i'm glad this country has the pull it does have over the rest of the world-we live in a World Economy and the reason i am RICH compared to most other people in the world making 45 grand a year is because America is at the top of its game in the World Economy-not perfect, but at the top of the game.  and it couldn't do it if it was New Europe.  you guys have TONS of luxuries that other people in other countries don't have.  you are talking to me on a COMPUTER on a website about GUNS-something you probably wouldn't be able to afford if you lived in Germany, or Mongolia, or Brazil.  i have almost 2 grand wrapped up into my rra with more to go.  i am proud of the patriots of days past and today that gave either their lives or parts of their lives to this country to make it what it is today-good or bad-allowing me to have the things i have today.  i thank God almighty for this country-its past, present, and its future.  i'm done jerking off now

jake

You've got to  know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.

If this passes, it's time to fold 'em.

Sure, you can stay around and hand-wring all you wish, but it won't chance a damn thing.
Sometimes, you're just outnumbered and have to face the fact that there are times when cutting and running are better than hanging around for the sake of principle and being oppressed.

Quoted: As far as CA having a CCW, how easy do you think it is for the average guy to get licensed?

Since it's may issue, it depends on the area.  In some areas, it's as simple as asking, and the license is good state wide!

Quoted: You've got to  know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. If this passes, it's time to fold 'em. Sure, you can stay around and hand-wring all you wish, but it won't chance a damn thing. Sometimes, you're just outnumbered and have to face the fact that there are times when cutting and running are better than hanging around for the sake of principle and being oppressed.

I'm taking my tax dollars somewhere that they're wanted.  There are no libertarian states, so there is nowhere that I can go where I'll be, "wanted" so to speak.  There are states that do believe in the 2nd amendment though, and those are the types of places I'm looking at when I leave this communist shithole.

Granted if I play my cards right I'm going to have nationwide CCW and .gov will relocate me as it suits them, but we'll see how it goes.

Quoted: The Confederate flag is a symbol of independence, self reliance, regional pride and Southern righteous and cultural forbearance. This is what that flag represents to millions of normal well adjusted, patriotic Americans. Up until somewhat recently, it used to be that only fringe black socialist radical groups, assorted "intellectual" collegiate Communists and other such socially disruptive riff raff castigated the Confederate flag. Now, any individual or group that wishes to loudly proclaim how politically correct and "racially tolerant" they are jumps on the anti-flag grandstand. Much like common, addle headed sheeple they be. They are akin to trained seals in a public government school. They only regurgitate what is taught to them by their liberal teachers and corrupt leftwing media outlets without any independent thought or research. Any basic reflection of accurate historic fundamentalism is tossed away in favor of the new symbolic revisionist meaning of the Stars & Bars.   The anti-Confederate flag mania, which is still only harbored by a comparative small minority of the US population, represents a certain and odious kind of thought control whereupon the mere proper symbolic representation of independence and fortitude is wiped away in favor abstract "tolerance" and "sensitivity." Then fill in the blanks provided to you by your betters. Whenever I hear someone denigrate the Confederate flag as a symbol of a singular "negative connotation" or some other knee jerk, subjective meaningless term, I know they've been spoon fed the new ideal that rugged individualism, independence, unity, and faithfull adherence to state's rights is an egregious concept that will not be tolerated and should be debased at every chance opportunity. This is a shame because the Confederate flag is as American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie. The youthfull PC crowd thinks they are striking a cord for racial equality and diversity. They think they have some type of self righteous moral superiority over traditional America. But in reality, they are really social agitators doing the bidding of their revionist liberal masters who wish to nullify any social unity that is left in these United States. Aaaah youth, why is it wasted on the young?

Very well said.

+1

Very nice Illinoisgun. That is how you change peoples minds about a subject they think they know about. ( Are you taking notes timm)


JR

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the following:
1) Slavery = BAD
2) Emancipation Proclimation = GOOD.

Let's face it - right or wrong, the stars and bars are seen as a symbol of support for the south and that means support for slavery / racism / "the Klan" to most folks.  If you want to put a "confederate" flag sticker on your pickup that's fine but you should expect the crap that comes along with it.  To pretend otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of this society's perception of that image.  People can provide all the logical, historical rationalizations they want for why they think the perceptions should be different but at this point in history, those perceptions stand.

Mike

Quoted: I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the following: 1) Slavery = BAD 2) Emancipation Proclimation = GOOD. Let's face it - right or wrong, the stars and bars are seen as a symbol of support for the south and that means support for slavery / racism / "the Klan" to most folks.  If you want to put a "confederate" flag sticker on your pickup that's fine but you should expect the crap that comes along with it.  To pretend otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of this society's perception of that image.  People can provide all the logical, historical rationalizations they want for why they think the perceptions should be different but at this point in history, those perceptions stand. Mike

right, all these guys that wanna tell me it's o.k. to have a rebel-i repeat-REBEL flag on their truck should put a nice big one in the window and drive to the hood.  when the "brothas" come kick the shit out of this "slavery supportin' cracka" just explain how the flag should be percieved as " American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie".  i'll grant you this:i bet they ain't carryin' a six shooter and they might just wanna use it on ya  my .02

jake

Quoted: I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the following: 1) Slavery = BAD 2) Emancipation Proclimation = WORSE!.

Fixed it for you.

Quoted: . ( Are you taking notes timm)

Sorry, my people skills are my life's work in progress.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the following: 1) Slavery = BAD 2) Emancipation Proclimation = WORSE!. Fixed it for you.

Tim,  Would you explain how the legal mechanism (Emancipation Proclimation) of freeing the slaves was a bad thing?

Quoted: Tim,  Would you explain how the legal mechanism (Emancipation Proclimation) of freeing the slaves was a bad thing?

Absolutely.  That one mechanism, in itself, destroyed state sovereignty on a level not seen before, or since.  States are not free to regulate much of anything anymore.  Many of the problems we have today with the federal government overstepping its bounds can be traced to the civil war.

Politics in this country can be effectively examined in two distinct blocks of time....pre Civil war and after.  Nothing has destroyed the founding father's original intent quite like the Emancipaton Proclimation.

Granted the ownership of men, and referring to them as property is absolutely disgusting, but nowhere near as disgusting as the size and scope of our government today due to the failures of the president during the civil war.

I think that as far as losses of liberty, Lincoln was the worst president this country has ever seen.  I'd say between him, and the disgrace and discredit that Clinton brought to this country, the two are the worst that the American people have ever produced.

Notice I did not say "State's rights."  States do not have rights.  Only individuals have rights.

Cool - thanks for your explaination.

Quoted: Cool - thanks for your explaination.

Sorry that's the best I can come up with.  I know where you stand after our long talk in my kitchen, but I just don't have the time to gather all my thoughts on this.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the following: 1) Slavery = BAD 2) Emancipation Proclimation = GOOD. Let's face it - right or wrong, the stars and bars are seen as a symbol of support for the south and that means support for slavery / racism / "the Klan" to most folks.  If you want to put a "confederate" flag sticker on your pickup that's fine but you should expect the crap that comes along with it.  To pretend otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of this society's perception of that image.  People can provide all the logical, historical rationalizations they want for why they think the perceptions should be different but at this point in history, those perceptions stand. Mike right, all these guys that wanna tell me it's o.k. to have a rebel-i repeat-REBEL flag on their truck should put a nice big one in the window and drive to the hood.  when the "brothas" come kick the shit out of this "slavery supportin' cracka" just explain how the flag should be percieved as " American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie".  i'll grant you this:i bet they ain't carryin' a six shooter and they might just wanna use it on ya  my .02 jake

I had a girlfriend from Gary Indiana. I regularly drove through Gary with the Stars and Bars on my truck. Never one problem or attempts of problems.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the following: 1) Slavery = BAD 2) Emancipation Proclimation = GOOD. Let's face it - right or wrong, the stars and bars are seen as a symbol of support for the south and that means support for slavery / racism / "the Klan" to most folks.  If you want to put a "confederate" flag sticker on your pickup that's fine but you should expect the crap that comes along with it.  To pretend otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of this society's perception of that image.  People can provide all the logical, historical rationalizations they want for why they think the perceptions should be different but at this point in history, those perceptions stand. Mike right, all these guys that wanna tell me it's o.k. to have a rebel-i repeat-REBEL flag on their truck should put a nice big one in the window and drive to the hood.  when the "brothas" come kick the shit out of this "slavery supportin' cracka" just explain how the flag should be percieved as " American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie".  i'll grant you this:i bet they ain't carryin' a six shooter and they might just wanna use it on ya  my .02 jake

Furthermore, The Rapper Outkast, whom is African American wears a Confederate Flag belt buckle. I have spent a considerable amount of time in Tennessee and North Carolina. It is Liberals in the North that are most offended by the Confederate Flag. Dozens of African Americans showed up to protest the removal of the Confederate Flag from the Georgia State Flag.

Quoted: right, all these guys that wanna tell me it's o.k. to have a rebel-i repeat-REBEL flag on their truck should put a nice big one in the window and drive to the hood.  when the "brothas" come kick the shit out of this "slavery supportin' cracka" just explain how the flag should be percieved as " American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie".  i'll grant you this:i bet they ain't carryin' a six shooter and they might just wanna use it on ya  my .02 jake

Right. You would probably get the same response if you drove into the 'hood' and told them to put down the 40 of Olde English, get off the street corner and go get a fucking job.

The actions of irrational idiots with double digit IQ's isn't a predicate for "right or wrong".

Quoted: Quoted: right, all these guys that wanna tell me it's o.k. to have a rebel-i repeat-REBEL flag on their truck should put a nice big one in the window and drive to the hood.  when the "brothas" come kick the shit out of this "slavery supportin' cracka" just explain how the flag should be percieved as " American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie".  i'll grant you this:i bet they ain't carryin' a six shooter and they might just wanna use it on ya  my .02 jake Right. You would probably get the same response if you drove into the 'hood' and told them to put down the 40 of Olde English, get off the street corner and go get a fucking job. The actions of irrational idiots with double digit IQ's isn't a predicate for "right or wrong".

Jake: Good post. You have a great grasp of the obvious as well as a you made a good exposition of my point.

Here's some other ones:

Imagine for a moment, wearing an American flag on your shoulder in Germany during WW2. Try then to explain to a Nazi soldier in "their hood" that you are there attempting to rid their nation and the world of a Fascist dictator and spread Democracy to Europe. He might just tell you that you are some pawn in some Jewish banker conspiracy to spread Communism or Capitalism, or whatever, to central Europe. In fact, because you are wearing that American flag, he might just start shooting at you. And I can assure you it won't be just some automatic pistol at any rate.

I'm sure glad my grandfather wasn't susceptible to the sensitivities of the German nationals during the war and after his subsequent occupation of Western Germany. Considering that the American flag was seen as a symbol of American/Jewish oppression of the Germanic peoples. Additionally, I'm happy that our Founding Fathers were not dissuaded by the British rejection of the American flag because it was viewed by the Brits and Loyalists as a symbol of North American colonial rebellion and aggression, instead of freedom and independence for the American patriots.

My point is this. Sometimes you can gauge the veracity and righteousness of a symbol by the types of individuals or groups that give you their perceived negative reactions to it. In your case, with regard to the Rebel flag, it's dependent, racist, socialized Northern ghetto goblins. People who care little about southern pride, honor and unity. They will use any excuse, including what's contemporarily thought of as a symbol of slavery, which no one advocates, to cut your throat for the couple dollars in your pocket. Or for the sheer enjoyment of watching a White person writhe in pain.

I have spent a lot of time in the South. I have relatives that live there in Arkansas and Mississippi. Believe me when I tell you this, although it may be hard to fathom. I have seen black folks, admittedly primarily older ones, wearing baseball caps that have the Confederate flag embossed on them. For them, it's a symbol of their Southern culture and regional pride. And I dare ANY confused, reactionary knee jerk liberal to tell that what they are wearing is a symbol of hate or oppression and slavery. Better yet, slap it off their head! Educate them about the all new, revisionist meaning of the Southern flag. Show them how racially sensitive and PC you are!

But all you might get is just a well deserved history lesson from a wise person, if you're lucky.            

Quoted: Quoted: As far as CA having a CCW, how easy do you think it is for the average guy to get licensed?

Since it's may issue, it depends on the area.  In some areas, it's as simple as asking, and the license is good state wide!

So, you're saying that if I somehow manage to get a CCW permit in Eureka or Ukiah for instance, that I can legally carry in Los Angeles? Can you document this? What about San Fransisco, where guns were recently banned altogether?

i dunno, i guess the flag just represents a rebellion against all of America.  i mean these guys said "fuck the union" that soooo many men, women, and children died and gave so much to build.  some would say that some Native American tribes were rebels, but i don't see it.  they were never a part of the union until they were forced to be and therefore never rebelled.  sure state's rights were in a nutshell crushed-so were the Native American's rights.  but here i am-standing on land that was at one time a tribe's land.  i dunno-call it a necessary evil.  if those things in the past didn't happen i wouldn't be here, married to my wife, with a three year old boy.  i like my life good and bad, and i'm thankful for all the sacrifices given to make my life what it is today directly and indirectly.  i also am having trouble (and someone please explain cuz i'm confused on the legality here) how are state's rights really crushed.  say, for instance, a gun ban like chicago's goes through statewide.  would the federal government step in and say "no you can't do that because the 2nd Amendment says you can't."?  i mean come on-we're fucked here.  i mean, o.k.-say the assault weapons ban goes through-isn't the state of illinois going further than the federal government?  wouldn't most legal scholars say that illinois has the right to make that law in its own jurisdiction?  then again, by that same token, if the federal assault weapons ban were still on-couldn't illinois pass a law making it legal to own all the components that the federal ban is making illegal?  FUCK ME, i'm confusing myself here !  i guess that's why lawyers get paid what they get paid.  so, the last thought rolling around here.....if the emancipation proclimation really did destroy states rights-then why can't we as gun owners say that any sort of weapons ban is unconstitutional by legal presidence (that's the biggest word i've said all day ) in that the states have no rights above the federal government going back to the civil war.  and therefore the states can't override the 2nd Amendment (which i thought it said somewhere in the Constitution states couldn't do anyway).  OH FUCK-my head hurts.....that's it, i've typed too long.  trust me-however long it took you to read this-it took me 10 times longer to type it because i've been thinking before typing-backspacing-yadda, yadda....  i gotta go get the boy.  be back later.  i look forward to a good-well rounded reply to my rambling-now THAT'S a challenge!  audios


jake

Quoted: So, you're saying that if I somehow manage to get a CCW permit in Eureka or Ukiah for instance, that I can legally carry in Los Angeles? Can you document this? What about San Fransisco, where guns were recently banned altogether?

You would have to check case law, but yes, the permit is good STATE WIDE.

Quoted: Quoted: So, you're saying that if I somehow manage to get a CCW permit in Eureka or Ukiah for instance, that I can legally carry in Los Angeles? Can you document this? What about San Fransisco, where guns were recently banned altogether? You would have to check case law, but yes, the permit is good STATE WIDE.

Your statement is confusing. If the permit is valid state wide, why would I need to check case law? Either the permit is good or it isn't.  Or are you saying that theoretically, it's good state wide? Or for the sake of your argument, you would like to think it's good state wide? Or, possibly, that California CCW law isn't such a great deal afterall?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: right, all these guys that wanna tell me it's o.k. to have a rebel-i repeat-REBEL flag on their truck should put a nice big one in the window and drive to the hood.  when the "brothas" come kick the shit out of this "slavery supportin' cracka" just explain how the flag should be percieved as " American as Mom, Chevys, six shooters and apple pie".  i'll grant you this:i bet they ain't carryin' a six shooter and they might just wanna use it on ya  my .02 jake Right. You would probably get the same response if you drove into the 'hood' and told them to put down the 40 of Olde English, get off the street corner and go get a fucking job. The actions of irrational idiots with double digit IQ's isn't a predicate for "right or wrong". Jake: Good post. You have a great grasp of the obvious as well as a you made a good exposition of my point. Here's some other ones: Imagine for a moment, wearing an American flag on your shoulder in Germany during WW2. Try then to explain to a Nazi soldier in "their hood" that you are there attempting to rid their nation and the world of a Fascist dictator and spread Democracy to Europe. He might just tell you that you are some pawn in some Jewish banker conspiracy to spread Communism or Capitalism, or whatever, to central Europe. In fact, because you are wearing that American flag, he might just start shooting at you. And I can assure you it won't be just some automatic pistol at any rate. I'm sure glad my grandfather wasn't susceptible to the sensitivities of the German nationals during the war and after his subsequent occupation of Western Germany. Considering that the American flag was seen as a symbol of American/Jewish oppression of the Germanic peoples. Additionally, I'm happy that our Founding Fathers were not dissuaded by the British rejection of the American flag because it was viewed by the Brits and Loyalists as a symbol of North American colonial rebellion and aggression, instead of freedom and independence for the American patriots. My point is this. Sometimes you can gauge the veracity and righteousness of a symbol by the types of individuals or groups that give you their perceived negative reactions to it. In your case, with regard to the Rebel flag, it's dependent, racist, socialized Northern ghetto goblins. People who care little about southern pride, honor and unity. They will use any excuse, including what's contemporarily thought of as a symbol of slavery, which no one advocates, to cut your throat for the couple dollars in your pocket. Or for the sheer enjoyment of watching a White person writhe in pain. I have spent a lot of time in the South. I have relatives that live there in Arkansas and Mississippi. Believe me when I tell you this, although it may be hard to fathom. I have seen black folks, admittedly primarily older ones, wearing baseball caps that have the Confederate flag embossed on them. For them, it's a symbol of their Southern culture and regional pride. And I dare ANY confused, reactionary knee jerk liberal to tell that what they are wearing is a symbol of hate or oppression and slavery. Better yet, slap it off their head! Educate them about the all new, revisionist meaning of the Southern flag. Show them how racially sensitive and PC you are! But all you might get is just a well deserved history lesson from a wise person, if you're lucky.

I spend ample time in the South for many years as well and have family deep in the Ozarks. I have spent much time in the mountains of East Tennessee and West North Carolina. It is NOT uncommon to see black folk wearing the Stars and Bars. People from the North are idiots when it comes to the battle flag. I love the south and would fight for her now if asked.

Stand in the mountains of East Tennesse and watch the sun rise. You will soon have an appreciation of why the Cherokee and then the Confederacy in turn, hand-in-hand with the Cherokee died for it.

The common knowledge of the South by Yankees is without a doubt the largest crime against American history and heritage that could ever be imagined in this country.


AND.........

Time was what a man did with his own corn, on his own land, was his own business

Quoted: Time was what a man did with his own corn, on his own land, was his own business

And honestly, that's what you can attribute all of our losses of liberty to.  There was a time where people took care of themselves and minded their own fucking business....and that time has passed.