User Panel
Posted: 10/23/2006 8:16:10 PM EDT
I don't post to much but enjoy this forum many times a day. This is my first topic started. So here goes, 933 means a ton to myself and my family and many I know. This would give us some power back and stop this state from stealing our land. I will post a clip from the writers of 933, they say it much better than I ever could.
If this is not cool let me know and I will take it off right away. Thanks for taking the time to read this. I-933 PROPERTY FAIRNESS INITIATIVE UPDATE In This Update: Potential for a stolen election in Skagit County ? Grassroots energize over threat! Insulting offer from GMA architect Best Laid Plans…For a Stolen Election? If your goal is to steal an election, what do you do first? Create confusion. Confusion creates malevolent opportunities. (Yes, the voter punched the chad but it is still hanging on the ballot. What did the voter intend? And … Oh, what are those boxes over there? They look like more ballots!) Such may be the case in Skagit County . The law that governs how initiatives are presented on the ballot has three provisions. The first is a caption describing the ballot measure number and topic; second is a 30-word sentence description of the measure that is written by the Attorney General’s office; and third, the question asking voters to vote for or against the measure. In the Skagit County ballots item # 2 was omitted. How would you vote if the guide said that I-933 dealt with government regulation of private property? If you believe government already takes too much land from citizens, you might likely vote no. But for I-933 to pass you have to vote yes. In Skagit County , the one sentence description prepared by the AG was omitted. Could it be because opponents to I-933 challenged that sentence in court? Our Yes on I-933 campaign had to hire a lawyer and defend the title as written by the AG. We successfully defended the language in court, but now it disappears from the Skagit County ballot. One wonders. Skagit County Auditor Norma Brummett and her staff have known about the printing error since at least Thursday afternoon, Oct. 19. Yet neither the County’s website (www.SkagitCounty.net) nor the Elections Department’s webpage has been updated to include any mention of the problem whatsoever. No notice to voters. No press release. Nothing. The Skagit Valley Herald did run an article entitled, “Ballot error to be fixed by mailing,” in its Saturday edition. But good luck finding that article on the web, either. As of this morning, both the Herald’s Home page and its Local News page featured an update about a month-old pit bull attack as the lead article. A search of the Herald’s website using the title of Saturday’s article as well as “ballot” and “ballot error” showed NO matches. A Google search of the title came up empty too. To make matters worse, this morning we learned that the mailing to voters, which the Auditor’s office claimed would go out today or tomorrow, is now scheduled to be “mailed out no later than Wednesday,” according to Auditor Brummett. Skagit County voters have had their rights violated. They are entitled to vote legal ballots. Why isn’t the Auditor taking immediate action to inform voters of her office’s mistake? Maybe it is because she is up for re-election herself …. ***** Pro I-933 Grassroots Responds While acknowledgement of the Skagit County problem was hardly a ripple in news coverage over the weekend, rural grassroots emails were running hot enough to cook brisket. The projected low turnout for next month’s election means that voters in Central and Eastern Washington will be a significant swing vote and could mean the difference in the success or failure of I-933. All I hear today from the grassroots is anger over the Skagit mess. Is this another effort to disenfranchise voters in Central and Eastern Washington by setting the stage for manipulation of voter intent? Well, we may have to win this election by outworking our opponents … Oh, wait, we’re already doing that. The news in item one above has angered and energized our grassroots to even greater levels. Now, continue on to read the next item and see if you don’t feel like going out and knocking on a few more doors. In case you wondered, we appear to have missed the point -- the real solution to lost property rights is a statewide bond measure to buy up your development rights and do a little tweaking of the GMA, or so says the governor’s chief lobbyist. Keep reading. ***** CHANGING THE SUBJECT In newspaper articles appearing around the state this weekend, a chief architect of the Growth Management Act (and No on I-933 leader) proposed a statewide bond measure to help pay for purchasing development rights from farmers as a way to address the concerns behind I-933, the Property Fairness Initiative. In addition, the Governor’s chief lobbyist said they would explore “ways to tweak the state Growth Management Act” next session. (TWEAK! He actually said TWEAK!) I-933 is not about development rights or “tweaking” the GMA. I-933 is about restoring PROPERTY RIGHTS. Specifically, the right to use one’s property as one sees fit, so long as no harm is done to others. Buying or leasing development rights does nothing to address the buffers, habitat set-asides and minimum native-vegetation coverage requirements that are keeping farmers and other property owners from using their land. It also does nothing for the farmer who watches their prime farmland wash downstream due to erosion, and it does nothing for people who are harmed when agency bureaucrats won’t let them stop clogged creeks from flooding their homes. (See the video of Grace Fremouw at http://www.propertyfairness.com/video.htm) Farmers want to farm. Any property owner wanting to sell their land for development can already do so – under the GMA and local zoning rules as currently written. I-933 does nothing to change that. I-933 simply restores fairness by giving landowners harmed by government action the ability to use their land in lawful ways or be compensated for the loss. Once again, our opponents can’t win on the merits of the argument, so they resort to yet another red herring to distract the media and voters from the real issue. But let’s not miss the opportunity to extend this invitation to the governor’s chief lobbyist to address the WFB annual meeting and explain what tweaking of the GMA he has in mind. We’ll be meeting in Yakima , November 14-16. The agenda is full but we’ll work you in for as long and you want to talk. Helping to compile and write the daily updates are Pat Batts, Patrick Connor, Gary Joiner, Dan Wood and John Stuhlmiller. Its not a bad team when you’re trying to change the world. It is not too late to help us get more TV and radio spots on the air! To contribute online, go to www.propertyfairness.com, or send a check to: Property Fairness Coalition PO Box 2446 Olympia, WA 98507 Again thanks for taking the time to read this and consider helping out with your yes vote. If it is not close they can't cheat. Josh |
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Absolutely. It will turn the gov't on it's head. They'll have to overturn it.
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DaBunny,
I am sure you are correct like everything else they overturn. We voters are to Dumb to even consider what we might want. But we can try, they have been trying to take my personal land for years and if this passes it would help us very much. Thanks again. Josh |
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I pray that I-933 passes, but I continue to assemble the only votes that count one component at a time.
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Hell YES I'm voting for I-933. Its time to make them realize what property ownership means.
While we're at it why don't we make them all sit down, read the Consitution and then have Mr. Clevenger give them a test on it. (Mr. C was my HS history teacher, a damn good one) |
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NO
YES
My take is that it puts the "private" back in "private property." |
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I will be voting a big YES...I own 7 acres in the Carnation area and while I do not farm the land, it never has been. I am not allowed to do much with the land. Recently, I was red-tagged for bringing in some fine soil to raise a low area. That area did not hold water and was not a wet-land. Now I am going through the stupid process of pleasing the county. This will probably cost me something like $4,000. The civil engineer looks at this and says "What is the problem here?" He claims things (in King County) have gotten really bad in the last 5 years...As in 5 years ago this would have been a non-issue.
King county periodically sends out postcards encouraging residents to rat on thier neighbors for illegal clearing and other questionable practices. Can you spell F A C I S T. Oh and by the way, King County and I am sure others take arial photos of your land, just to keep you honest. Vote Yes on 933 |
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Yup, you buy acerage, thinking you'll at least have firewood, but Noooooooooooooooo.
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I can't wait to vote "YES"...it sickens me when the .gov gets to declair property off-limits for whatever solely on a whim. Anything that limits .gov power is a good thing.
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voting for it, along with my entire family, but it may not be enough to counteract Queen County
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+1 on all accounts.... |
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I'm voting for it, I think my wife will be as well. |
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I have often fantized about putting in an underground rifle range . Nothing fancy maybe one or two lanes. Acquire some large diameter culvert, say 4 feet, about 75 yards long, cover it with soil add some ventilation...But the permit process always gets in the way. Maybe someone should develop some software so we can generate our own permits . Now there's a solution.
Vote YES on 933 |
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Thanks guys, It makes a guy smile to think there are that many of us that still have the will to fight back. If anyone wants more info on this or signs contact these guys at the washington farm bureau. http://www.propertyfairness.com/
Josh |
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We are both voting for it. it will never pass though. Way too many apartment and condo owners in Seattle that don't give a shit about anyone that lives outside the city limits.
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I will be voting yes...
But It is going to lose, ya see on my street alone one little housing development has more voters than there are farms on my road.... I live in the middle of farming. King Co, NEWT's ( North Everett White Trash) and apartment dwellers are going to kill it for us. |
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But as said earlier, if for some reason it wins, the .gov will find or make up a reason the vote wasn't valid or some such thing and nullify it anyway. |
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You just need one of those portable RV shelters to keep over the backhoe and move along with the progress of the job. Dig one section, reinforce with wood or concrete, back fill, lay sod, move down to the next section, all concealed from satellite rays. |
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I just got off the phone with the guys running the 933 camp. They are saying we are doing pretty well in the last poll at 63% yes vote. I actually think we will win, remember to tell everyone you know about it and we have a shot. If it's not close they can't cheat.
Josh |
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Personally I think it is a boondoggle, and will have far reaching, unintended consequences. I'm on the fence still about voting for or against it, but I have my reservations.
Questions: Zoning? How is zoning affected by this? To me it would seem that this throws zoning regulations right out on its ear. So now my neighbor can sell his property to a commercial or industrial interest that intends to put in an asphalt company? In the middle of a housing development? Doesn't this Initiative basically say they are allowed to do that? Doing so would severely damage my property and its value. Section 2(C)(i-viii) seem to cover these types of situations, but doesn't specifically limit the use of property that is designated for residential purposes versus commercial or industrial purposes. If this passes, can government even designate such zoning requirements? Look, I'm all for property rights, and there are plenty of abuses. But there are abuses on both sides of the equation. Is it someone's right as a property owner to turn their property into a landfill if they want? Doesn't that action hurt the value and the rights of those around him? Things like the King County CAO are bullshit, but I'm not certain that I-933 is the answer. My ballot is completely filled out except for two issues: I-933 and Proposition 1 (Renton Fireworks Ban reversal.) I'm studying both very carefully, and thankfully I have a few more weeks to make a decision. One last thought: As written, I believe that I-933 will be declared unconstitutional at some level. This Blog indicates there is no wording in I-933 to grant execptions to conform with Federal laws. We all know that I-933 will land in court, just like every other initiative that has been passed in this state. Just out of curiousity, I wonder how many initiatives have passed just to be over turned in the courts or by subsequent action by the legislature.... |
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Just because the worthless gov of Washington state screws us out of everything we vote for is not a reason to stop trying.
That said you question about zoning is one I have heard from a few people so I called the farm Bureau and asked them that exact question. There answer, this initiative will NOT let a land owner do anything he/she wants to on thier propertym IE if you want to put in a landfill on your property unless it was zoned that way you would not be able to. You would also have no recourse as to sue to state because you could not install said landfill. The way the initiative is writen says, any zoning that was writen prior to 96 would be valid and non disputible. The reason they chose 96 is by that date almost all zoning had been set. I am in no way connected to this campaign, I just think it is fair for the land owner to chose what is the correct thing to do on thier land as long as it does not harm someone else or their property value, and I think this initiative does just that. You can read the whole initive at. http://www.propertyfairness.com/933text.htm. atleast give it a shot. Josh |
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I hope all zoning is not frozen there with no way to have it changed. |
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I'm reading through: www.sightline.org/research/sprawl/res_pubs/property-fairness noon933.org/index.php www.propertyfairness.com/index.htm If there any other good links, on either side of the issue, I'd like to have them for further research. |
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Voting yes, government shouldn't have a say in how private property is used anyways.
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Sorry I don't have any links. I just read the initiative itself and that way I get the meat of it instead of what someone wants me to think. They can't hide anything in it just read the whole thing and you will know one way or the other.
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+1 Yes. Land is either privately or publicly held - no flim-flam BS. Gov't
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So I can put a lead smelter right next to your house? Cool! Maybe I'll put in a paper mill too. I'll be right down! |
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Thats was the philosophy of the soviet union, it won't work out any better for you. |
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Let's not stray to far off topic. As said before, you would not be able NOT be able to put anything like a paper mill only what your property is zoned for nothing more nothing less. This is an important issue, Gov already has to much power why give them anymore? Time to take some of our rights back, if it's not our land, why do you have the right to own a gun? Why do we have the right to do anything the Gov thinks we should not do? We are supposed to have rights remember? I for one am tired of having less and less. Josh |
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I'm voting Yes and I hope to hell it passes. My biggest fear is that I will be outvoted by dead people!
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My point was that some government involvement is a necessary evil. If everyone just runs around and says "it's private property, I can do whatever I what with it, and the government should keep its hand off" then we basically have an anarchy on our hands. Jonathon said that government shouldn't have a say in how private property can be used, so who would? Anyone? No one? Without some sort of government to regulate it, what would stop me from doing just what I posted? The Soviet Union example doesn't really have any correlation to this. That was their government acting in that manner, same with the current situation in China. There has to be balance. Is there balance now? No, obviously there is not. Will I-933 bring balance? I do not think so. |
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I love how often the free market and competitive capitalism is called anarchy and how chaos and lawlesness will result if we do not have government regulation, inspite of thousands of years of history to the contrary.
shakes head and sighs |
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You could put both right next door and it'd be fine with me. I live next to the Washougal MX track, there are times when both the traffic and the noise are high, but it's their property, they have a right to do as they please. As long as they are not destroying my property(or affecting it, like as in ground water), I don't give a shit. |
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What if the land was zoned as industrial prior to 1996, but was changed to residential in 2002? If I bought the land in 2006, and I-933 was in effect, couldn't I sue the state for compensation, since the zoning wouldn't allow me the use of the property as I see fit? If any zoning was changed after 1996, then what is the standard that is applied? Let's say you have a rural 10 acres in King County right now, zoned R-10. That means only one residential dwelling per 10 acres. You can only have one house on your 10 acres. You can't subdivide your own land and sell it under the current system. Let's say that zoning was established in 2002, and you bought the property in 2003. Before that, it was zoned R-20 (prior to 1996.) Since it happened after 1996, can you sue the state to have the zoning changed again? And changed to what? It would prevent you from subdividing your own property. You want to sell those 10 acres as subdivided land to a develop for a huge profit and move to Idaho because they allow class 3 stuff. Again, I think the intent of I-933 is correct in wanting to reclaim lost property rights, I just don't know that it will really accomplish that goal. |
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I never said free market and competitive capitalism was anarchy. I said that every one doing whatever they wanted was anarchy. I know you believe in the common law of man, but there are many out there that don't, or would just take advantage of the system. That system begins with the premise that all men are fair and just. Obviously, many are not fair and just, but evil. Also, what thousands of years of history are you referring to? Surely not in any "modern age of man." There hasn't been any civilization without some form of govenrment for at least 4,000 years. |
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And these thousands of years of history that were free from government or government regulation where from when to when? |
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You have what like 5 acres what have you to lose???? Try complaining when you have 500+. The regulations on what you can do,(Chems) pest, herb, Fert, watersheds etc,etc is a nightmare. |
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Would managing 8000 acres above chief Joe dam count as knowing what agribiz is all about ? you assume too much my friend. |
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I don't have all the answers to the questions on 933, as I have said before if you have questions go and read the text directly from the initiative, if you still have questions call the farm bureau they will answer any and all questions you have. But really just read the dang thing, it spells it out for you, then you can make up your own mind.
Honestly I really don't want to debate it or argue about it, I simply asked to consider voting for it. I own land and my family and everyone that knows me will be voting for it. Hope you never have to go up against the state when you want to cut a tree or clear some land to plant crops, then you might understand how this effects us, Josh |
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Managing and owning are two different things, especailly if its BLM land. |
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Remember, that with an Initiative the Legislature can modify or completely ignore it after two years...
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So this came right out of...
New York City?! Ballot Measures Seek Limited Government By DAVID CRARY ASSOCIATED PRESS
Damn city people need to mind their own business... |
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Thanks guys, here is an update from the 933 headquarters. This is getting rich.
As usual, we ask that you forward this email to your lists. You won’t believe what we’ve uncovered in the disclosure reports and what the newspapers refuse to report to their readers! I-933 PROPERTY FAIRNESS INITIATIVE UPDATE from the desk of Patrick Batts, Administrative Vice President Washington Farm Bureau In this update: * Latest Poll Shows Dead Heat * Enron, World’s Richest Developer Funding “No on I-933” Campaign * Help Us Reach More Voters LATEST POLL SHOWS DEAD HEAT Preliminary results from a Moore Information poll commissioned by the Property Fairness Coalition shows voters evenly split on I-933, with a large percentage still undecided. This is very good news. Despite millions of dollars being spent to blanket the airwaves with misleading ads against us, the opposition still can’t convince a majority of voters to agree with them. But they won’t give up. And neither can we! The opposition literally has at least three of the world’s richest men financing its multi-million dollar ad campaign. Fortunately, we have YOU. We need all of you to keep up the good work talking to your friends and neighbors, writing letters to the editor, sending I-933 postcards to your family and colleagues, calling radio shows, and doing all you can to inform voters. Undecided voters need to hear from you! We can win this campaign if we keep up the intensity! ***** ENRON ATTORNEY, WORLD’S RICHEST DEVELOPER FUNDING “NO ON I-933” CAMPAIGN That’s a headline you won’t see in newspapers anytime soon, although there is more truth to it than there is to recent headlines screaming “N.Y. mogul key to I-933 movement,” (Olympian, Oct. 27) and the like. The opposition and their lap-dog friends in the media continue to yelp that Howard Rich, a wealthy New York real estate investor, has contributed to several property rights and tax limitation ballot measures around the nation, including our own I-933. Never mind that the funds are actually from an organization called Americans for Limited Government (ALG), not Rich himself. By why should reporters concern themselves with details? The implication is that somehow out-of-state money, especially from a … gasp … wealthy Libertarian, (or the free-market organization he chairs) is a bad thing. Funny how the same logic doesn’t seem to apply to the No on I-933 campaign, as least as far as the media are concerned. Citizens for Community Protection, the official No committee, has received $740,895.73 from out-of-state sources, including nearly $545,000 from the Virginia-based Nature Conservancy. If Rich, as ALG’s Chairman, is the “driving force behind … Initiative 933,” (Seattle Times, Oct. 27) for his group’s financial support of the Property Fairness Coalition, then the opposition is controlled by California billionaire John Morgridge, Chairman of Cisco Systems, and Texas attorney Carol Dinkins, whose law firm represented Enron. The two are Chair and Vice Chair of The Nature Conservancy, respectively. Another large out-of-state donor to the No campaign is Enterprise Community Partners of Maryland, founded by real estate developer James W. Rouse, a father of urban renewal and builder of the first mall east of the Mississippi . Enterprise Community Partners has developed 190,000 homes across the country. But that isn’t the only developer among the No’s contributors. In fact, there are more than 60 businesses and individuals from real estate, planning, construction and other development-related industries including the world’s richest developer – Paul Allen, through his firm Vulcan, Inc. It makes sense that Allen’s Vulcan Development wants to limit housing outside of Seattle ’s urban growth boundary. How else will they fill all those high-end condos being built in the Denny Triangle? And, we can’t forget to list Bill Gates among the prominent No donors. So that makes three of the World’s Richest Men: Bill Gates, Paul Allen and John Morgridge, along with Enron lawyer Carol Dinkins, who are bankrolling the No on I-933 campaign and colluding to rob Washingtonians of the use and value of their private property. And if you count George Soros, whose leftist “Center for Public Integrity” has been used as cover from which to attack ALG and Howard Rich, that brings to four the number of Forbes’ List of the World’s Richest People who are lined up against us. But don’t expect to read about that in the newspapers. It is not too late to help us reach more voters! To contribute online, go to www.propertyfairness.com, or send a check to: Property Fairness Coalition PO Box 2446 Olympia, WA 98507 Please note that contributions are not tax deductible. Contributions cannot exceed $5,000 in the aggregate from any one source beginning October 17. |
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That's funny because I don't support her. Nor did the majority of the state, man she is HOT, Rosanne Barr Hot.
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