User Panel
Posted: 1/19/2006 9:43:58 PM EDT
Text of SB 5343 is available here: apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?year=2006&bill=5343
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I actually get off of work early Monday so I may be able to make this. I won't be working all night so it's possible.
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For those that may not know where the John A. Cherberg building is, here is a link to a map of the Capitol Campus: Capitol Campus Map
It's in .pdf format, FYI Trey |
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Thanx for posting this. Is anyone from the Bothell or Bellevue/Redmond area going?
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I will be there. Figured I'd need to so I arranged a day off of work, even though we're in a 3 month programming crunch. Since I will apparently only need a half day, I could possibly go up again.
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I am going to try but at the very least I am going to make some calls and emails.
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For what it is worth, Call and E-mail made...
Good luck to you going down there. |
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So, I was going over the text of the proposed law (SB 5343) as well as reading GOAL's talking points. And a couple funny bits jumped out at me as potentially VERY nasty. Check out the bits defining "dealer" and "gun show or event" below. The first would appear to label anyone conducting a sale at a "gun show or event" as a dealer. The second would appear to make gun show organizers responsible for policing parking lots (possibly an undefined amount of nearby streets) for sales not involving background checks.
This is a very weird an creepy law.
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It's even worse than that:
Section (2)(a) being the background check. In other words someone is going to be responsible for the impossible task of making sure that EVERY deal that is done has a NICS check done or be subject to the penalty for a gross misdemeanor which if I read the RCWs correctly is up to a year in jail, up to a $5000 fine, or both. That's right if a table renter decides to do an under the table deal, the person who organizes, promotes, or otherwise sponsors a gun show or event is criminally liable for the actions of another. BTW- if HABU mentions to me at a show that he's thinking about getting rid of his Pre-27, that is safely locked in his safe at home, and I tell him that I'll buy it from him we'd both be in violation of this proposed law. The bill if passed would KILL gun shows in WA, because no one would hold them for fear of being criminally liable for the actions of table holders and attendees. I can find nothing in OR or CA law that is similar to those provisions of this proposed law. |
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Emails sent to each senator. Hopefully it will help as that is the limit of what I can do.
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Yeah but in CA, ALL sales have to take place through a dealer. I think that's where they're going with this...once that kind of law is in place, there's no plausible deniability in case of mass confiscation ("Oh, sold my AR 2 years ago. Have a nice day!"). |
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This is true but the antis aren't phrasing it that way, most likely in a feeble attempt to conceal their goal of eliminating all person to person sales, they are comparing WAs lack of gun show laws directly to CA and OR. The way I stated it puts the burden back onto the antis and puts them in a tough spot if they want to continue to try and conceal that agenda. I've seen nothin in the OR or CA laws that holds the show holder criminally liable if the rules aren't followed by other parties. That part of the bill is truely insane. |
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After Action Report Oly Trip
So it went okay today. It was a standing room only crowd in the hearing room. I’d guess about an 80% con and 20% pro for the split. Only an hour or so was allowed for testimony. 6 from our side and 6 from the other side. Done as 2 groups of 3 given about 8 minutes each total. It took awhile to get everyone in the room and signed in for the hearing. edited to remove info that was not supposed to be here I did see my senator in the hallway after the firearms hearing. She was talking with a constituent that is an FFL dealer, and a black powder shooter. She was writing down how the bill should be amended and why from him. They seemed to know each other very well (donor or long time friend). After that conversation I think that the votes are there to get this one out of committee. Send letters and faxes NOW!!! I’d guess about an 80% con and 20% pro for the split. |
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It was interesting, I'd never been to a commitee hearing before. I signed up to testify but wasn't called due to the format used.
It was a little hard to tell who was for/against the bill but ther were a lot of NRA/WAC/OlyArms shirts and buttons visible. Kline stinks on ice, he made it very clear that the so-called "gun show loophole" is only one of several "loopholes" he wants to see addressed....specifically mentioning the "private sale loophole". Hargrove asked questions that made it seem like he is still against bad laws. Rasmussen (also a Dem) made comments about winning and buying firearms herself. The WA police chiefs' org guys testified for the bill but made a point of saying (for what it's worth) things that sounded like good folks have a right to own guns. I wonder if we can get some street cops to testify in future hearings. Joe Waldron kicked ass, as usual and Brian Judy of the NRA also made some good points. The third guy in the first anti-5343 set was decent. CeaseFire and the Brady wankers did their usual shtick, one of them entertaining the crowd with his blathering about how easily you can get those evil Salt Weapons and .50s calibers. The second set of anti-5343 guys had two guys who didn't quite have their act together and one guy who was good who I'm guessing was PHIL_IN_SEATTLE. Wanted to go up and say hi when the session split but I think he'd gone already. He made some points that PHIL_IN_SEATTLE has touched on here, e.g., ways in which this law is worse than Oregon and CA law. I don't think this bill is a slam dunk, think we have a shot at fighting it. |
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I just got back from Olympia.
The turn out was good, very good for a one gun bill agenda. I'd estimate 130-150 people in the room and SB5343 as the first one heard. When we finished and left there were only about a dozen people left in the room with 5 bills left to be heard. There were 10 antis for sure(8 of them being paid to be there), and easily 75 progun people that I recognize from our side. Including RS_Coyote and Cherry 45 plus uncle Ira
As FS-FNRL said 6 people spoke for each side pro vs con, with three speakers forming a panel and being alloted 8 minutes for the panel then a panel from the other side spoke. First up was a panel from the Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs (WASPC): Don Pierce WASPC Executive Director Scott Smith - Chief Mountlake Terrace and Robert Berg Chief of Police for Centralia Senator Hargrove(D) questioned chief Smith on the private sale loophole, and did he advocate closing that, Smith replied in the affirmative. Senator Kline rebuffed Senator Hargrove by saying they weren;t going to argue about slippery slopes. Marilyn Rasmussen (D) asked the panel that because the sheriffs and police are at gun shows anyway during their free time if they'd be willing to set up a booth to allow anyone who wanted to be able to check a sale out do a background check to do so, and SMiths reply was that the dealers already have access to NICS. When asked by Senator Hargrove if there are any documented cases in Washington of guns being bought at a gun show and then used in a crime he replied, I'm sure that there are, I don't have any. A panel from the against the bill side then spoke. (please forgive me any mistakes with the names) Joe Waldron Brian Jody David Renard. Joe Waldron tore the bill apart, including that it specifies an inferior background check databaase NCIC instead of NICS The point was brought up that while the chiefs were here to testify for the bill, the rank and file officers do not support it, including the police firearms training association(whatever it's real name is) David Renard took Kline to task for the short notice of the meeting and Kline responded that he instructed the committee staff to publish the meeting in the schedule exactly five days ahead as required. The odd thing is that Mr Renard had a copy of the schedule that he apparantly gets via the USPS and the meeting wasn't listed. The next group of antis up were: Natalie Rober Exec Director for WA Ceasefire Ralph Faschitille President of WA Ceasefire Arianna who is also from Ceasefire and has worked on the CO and OR anti gun show campaigns. Natalie testimony=standard schlock Ralph however went off the deep end. Do you know that he went to a gunshow a month ago and was shocked by the firepower that was available, 50 caliber weapons that can shoot a plan down from two miles away. When he asked a seller what kind of paperwork he needed to buy one he was told the only paperwork he needed was cash. Claimed the 50 caliber was a tank stopper you can shoot down a plane and shoot down a tank with one. He cited the alledged Ceasefire poll that claims to have asked 403 people whether they would be more or less likely to support candidates who wanted to close a loophole in state law that allows gun sales without background checks at gun shows. claiming that more than 70 percent of the people surveyed said they would be more likely to support such a candidate. (nevermind the PI poll that shows the opposite 71.1% against background checks on all sales at shows to 28.2% and .6% don't know or care) Senator Johnson (R) asked Faschitille if he knew of any crimes committed with a 50 caliber and the reply was I don't know. Senator Kline asked if we should just wait until someone shoots through a building to do something about then. The next and last Pro-Gun panel was: Mr Cooper I didn't get the other guys name and ME I don't have notes on this panel, Mr Cooper closed with a great point, but I can't recall the quote, it had to do with nor worrying about the law as it's intended but worry about it as it's written. #2 quashed the bill with points from the state constitution (after really ranting against the Ceasefire liars) Then there was me, why Kline called on me I don't know, he has to recognize my name, as I've certainly called and written enough. Maybe he just wanted to get a look at me so he can avoid crossing my path. Time was short as my co-panalists had already used in excess of 10 minutes so I limited myself to one point. That point being that this bill will kill gunshows in WA. While the proponents of this bill are claiming that gun shows are thriving in states that have enacted laws to close the "gunshowloophole" I've read the OR and CA laws and I've seen nothing that would hold the person who runs the show how holder criminally liable if the rules aren't followed by other parties. Criminally liable for up to 1yr in jail and a $5,000 fine for something they have no control over. No one will run a gun show with that sword hanging over their head. |
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By far Phil's speech was one of the best and to the point. We did have a few goof balls up there talking out there ass. It would be nice if we could get more intelligent people up there to represent us in the future.
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I would go down in full service uniform in a minute. |
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I signed up to testify but, honestly, I was nervous about doing it. One thing that could've helped was having some sort of practice session or two. Maybe, get a group of people togther a month or so before the leg session opens and practice debating the issues on the fly. Phil did a nice job with a pared down time slice. |
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Then we hope to see you the next time, and any other uniforms you can bring with you. |
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The thing here is committee ownership. Kline is the chair of the committee because he put in his dues with the Dem caucus and so when we let them take over Olympia, he got that committee as his lollipop. And, it was the chair who chose who got to speak. In some cases he had to pick good names (Waldron and Judy have political recognition and pressure would have been put on Kline if they hadn't been called), in some cases he called some pretty good speakers I hadn't heard before, and in other cases I think maybe he wasn't calling the folks you and I would have chosen to represent our side... Anywhoo, overall I thought it went pretty well. As for turnout, I'm pretty sure that last year (when they had the same language) 250+ people turned out. Actually, Brian Judy told me he thought it was almost 400. I know I had heard that they overflowed into a conference room with a video of it and then from that out to the courtyard. We did not do that well this time, which is a little spooky imho. But it was good to see a full room. Next time I'll check in here beforehand and try to meet some people f2f. -Boyd |
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Kline does indeed get to pick, and when my follow up calls and letters go out to the committe, I will point out that when he selected the pro side of that bill 6 out of 6 were people who were paid to be there including 3 from the same antigun organization when it came to the con side he picked 2 that are used to speaking in front of the committe and are expected to be called on to speak (Waldron and Judy) and then 4 average joe on the streets( I don't know Mr Renards background so I'll just go that he is an average person), but at least two of them were people he is very familar with. (Mr Cooper and the other gentlemen who was on the panel with me). My name should be familiar to Kline, I've had plenty of contact with his office every year for the past several. I'm not dissapointed by the turn out at all, comparing it to last years tremendous turnout isn't being honest to ourselves because if you'll recall last year there were seven gun bills scheduled to be heard: SB 5131 Insanity finding/firearms SB 5342 Safe storage of firearms SB 5343 Gun show loophole SB 5344 Capitol campus gun ban + when it was scheduled there were three bills that didn't even have numbers yet. the assault weapon ban the .50 BMG rifle ban the deployed military CPL renewal. with four of them being 100% antigun, one troubling, and one meh, and one good. This year it was one bill, with some folks having just made a trip to Olympia for the SB 6258 hearing on the 17th. |
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