I don't really give two fucks about who is selling what for how much, but I did think it was interesting when Winston Wolf said (paraphrase) that his income was "average at best".  I have to think that an engineer makes a little bit more than average income.

I could look up average income for Maricopa County but that statistic is  skewed by the thousands of turds who make no money and the handful of people who make a serious ass load of cash each year.

I consider average income for Arizona to be around $60K for an individual male and maybe around $100K for a family.  

What do you guys consider to be average, typical or normal income?

I think your estimate of the average is high. In fact, I just Googled "median income for Maricope county" and found this (link to source):

The median income for a household in the county is $45,358, and the median income for a family is $51,827. Males have a median income of $36,858 versus $28,703 for females. The per capita income for the county is $22,251. 11.70% of the population and 8.00% of families are below the poverty line. Out of the total population, 15.40% of those under the age of 18 and 7.40% of those 65 and older are living below the poverty line.

Wikipedia has the same information. I think the Wikipedia number is a little out of date (form 2000-2001 possibly), but not necessarily too far off, perhaps a little low.

I know the above info doesn't really prove anything contrary to what you said, but being in the IT field working for a Fortune 500 company in Phoenix, I can tell you salaries are lower than the national average. Typically, IT salaries are better than most, and you would be hard pressed to find someone making close to $60K in Phoenix. They exist, but they are the exception, and are often companies re-locating people from northern California or the East Coast, where they have to pay insane amounts of money so people can afford to live in those places. My sister, who is a technical documentation writer for a large DC-area satellite company, makes around $80K. She'd be lucky to make $40-50K here, and only because she has lots of experience and knows her shit.

Someones income is no ones god damn business except the person earning it. Why is everyone after WW all of a sudden? Holy shit this is getting real old real fast.

Quoted: Someones income is no ones god damn business except the person earning it. Why is everyone after WW all of a sudden? Holy shit this is getting real old real fast.

... It's cool bro, I didn't take it is as a stab (like the Photai thread)

... Let me clarify on the "average at best" statement if I may.

... Sure, from a purely statistical angle, my income is above average. But my point was this: a seasoned engineer's salary doesn't put him on easy-street. In fact, most professionals live humble lives, living in tract homes, driving Fords, Chevys and Dodges. If they manage the family's resources properly, they'll make it along comfortable but are in no means rich based on their salary alone. I consider my salary "average" for a professional with the seniority approximately the same as mine. I see "rich" people at or beyond the cusp of 7 digits-a-year income. In contrast, "poor" are those people living in cardboard boxes in the riverbed near Dobson road. Put in that context - I'm just "average".

... As for that ammo thing - A couple friends and I recently decided to buy some bulk 7.62x39 ammo. Because it's been dry, I picked up an extra 1/2 dozen cases to sell here for anyone that may choose. With shipping to my home, the "profit" I was gouging from members here was in the neighborhood of $8.00/case and I was delivering it (except down to a customer in Tucson). Hardly a "gouging" all things considered. Lastly, we all go to Crossroads funshow - Miwall has traditionally been the cheapest along with J&G for ammo. Did you notice their prices on 7.62X39 last weekend? Yup $179/case, a whole dollar cheaper than me! J&G - didn't even bring one case down from Prescott.

... So in summary - Photai , you can kiss my sweaty balls.

Quoted: Someones income is no ones god damn business except the person earning it. Why is everyone after WW all of a sudden? Holy shit this is getting real old real fast.

Relax dude, the topic doesn't really have anything to do with Winston Wolf at all.  The reference to income in his reply in the earlier thread got me thinking that the "average income" that you see in government statistics is low because it includes a lot of people who aren't even in the economic game at all.

Hell, a journeyman construction worker or a cop easily makes $60K per year.  A marred E-6 in the military has take home pay equivelent to about $60K+.  Seems like a very "average" income to me.

Damn!!! I wish my Family had an income of $60,000 a year! We are closer to 1/2 of that... I guess we are Poverty level??..... Please feel free to make donations to help with new Firearms, Ammo, Food or rent (Yes, in that order).......

I don't know what the average income is. I'm an Engineer without a degree, that definetely effects my pay. I'm around 50k. It would be closer to 60-65k if I had a degree.

The median income for a household in the county is $45,358, and the median income for a family is $51,827. Males have a median income of $36,858 versus $28,703 for females. The per capita income for the county is $22,251. 11.70% of the population and 8.00% of families are below the poverty line. Out of the total population, 15.40% of those under the age of 18 and 7.40% of those 65 and older are living below the poverty line.

Yup, that's correct.  I used to run Scarborough research all the time.  The average household income was $48,000 when I was running those reports.

A marred E-6 in the military has take home pay equivelent to about $60K+.

A 12 year E-6 makes $37650.72 a year without housing allowance which is different depending which base you happen to be at. So you are way off sir.

Quoted: Hell, a cop easily makes $60K per year.

Phoenix PD pays ~$42K/year to officers

Quoted: Quoted: Hell, a cop easily makes $60K per year.   Phoenix PD pays ~$42K/year to officers

Not bad when you consider that you can start out making $42K/year with only a H.S. diploma, first year.  There are a lot of engineers that graduate with Bachelor's and Master's that don't make that their first year out.

It's a matter of perspective more than it is pay stubs.

Yes, cops do make $42k +/-, but they also do a LOT of overtime when they want, so $60k for an officer is not unreasonable.  I know a few who make that kind of money.  Bastards

When I was an electrician my salary was listed at $27/hr, but that's not what I made.  They inflated the hourly rate because of my benny package, so I was actually making about $20/hr.  Now that I am self-employed, I make hardly anything, and no where NEAR any median average.  

College professors start at about $35k, and 35k is where I would personally put the average income.  Almost everyone I know makes between $12 and $22 and hour, which is about $40k at the top end.  

And I agree with the others that the topic has nothing to do with WW.  He was just the catalyst that formed a thought.  What's average for him as an engineer would be twice what an electrician makes, which is twice what a Wal Mart employee makes.  It's all about perspective.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hell, a cop easily makes $60K per year.   Phoenix PD pays ~$42K/year to officers Not bad when you consider that you can start out making $42K/year with only a H.S. diploma, first year.  There are a lot of engineers that graduate with Bachelor's and Master's that don't make that their first year out.

Very true, and good observation.  After my MA is complete I'll be in the $35k range (at 37 years old), so police work doesn't pay as bad as it would seem on paper.  But for the stress and divorce rate, any officer wuld tell you the pay is too low - and I'd have to agree with them.  

Quoted: A marred E-6 in the military has take home pay equivelent to about $60K+. A 12 year E-6 makes $37650.72 a year without housing allowance which is different depending which base you happen to be at. So you are way off sir.

An E-6, with 12 years service, with an address in metro Phoenix, on active duty CONUS has a take home paycheck of $1900+ every two weeks.  This is a NET paycheck of around $48K.  A lot of military income is nontaxable, so the actual total income is in th fifties, but I think it would take a civilian income in excess of 60K to take home 48K +.

How do I know?  I am an E-6, CONUS, with a Phoenix address.  My pacheck on the first is $1940, my paycheck on the 15th is $2004.  The disparity is because the SGLI and my additional insurance is taken out on the first.  Base pay is only a part of a military paycheck.

That doesn't include any of the separate TDY, per diem, clothing allowances or bonuses that usually acrue in any given year.  

I'll be back overseas again this summer and will make a lot more, but it seems like a good baseline of income for a typical family.

My wife is the project accountant for a big development firm and makes about the same.

A lot of the people I know are either military, cops or construction workers.  Most of the people I know through my wife are paper pushers architects or engineers.

It seems like we fall pretty much in the middle, right along with most of those people.

Quoted: Someones income is no ones god damn business except the person earning it. Why is everyone after WW all of a sudden? Holy shit this is getting real old real fast.

Easy there, pilgrim. We're just discussing salaries in general. None of us have asked WW what his salary is. For the record, I agree with you: you salary is your own business.

While there have been several examples of decent-paying (> $50K) jobs, the thing to consider is that the majority of jobs out there pay less than $40K. Secretaries, cab drivers, burger flippers, you name it.

I have it on good authority that a properly motivated "handguard routering technician" can clear $40K+.

Quoted: I have it on good authority that a properly motivated "handguard routering technician" can clear $40K+.

I'd rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a brother routering hand guards...

Seriously, I didn't even know that handguards required routering.

87 dollars an hour is AVERAGE, Cleatus!

Quoted: 87 dollars an hour is AVERAGE, Cleatus!

Unless you're an illegal, and then it's 87 a day!  Capasa amigo?  w00t!

Quoted: I don't know what the average income is. I'm an Engineer without a degree, that definetely effects my pay. I'm around 50k. It would be closer to 60-65k if I had a degree.

Get a PE license.  You don't have to have a degree to qualify for the exams.  (Ask me how I know.)

Helps the bottom line significantly.

KBaker, P.E. (Electrical)

Quoted: The median income for a household in the county is $45,358, and the median income for a family is $51,827. Males have a median income of $36,858 versus $28,703 for females. The per capita income for the county is $22,251. 11.70% of the population and 8.00% of families are below the poverty line. Out of the total population, 15.40% of those under the age of 18 and 7.40% of those 65 and older are living below the poverty line. Yup, that's correct.  I used to run Scarborough research all the time.  The average household income was $48,000 when I was running those reports.

Todays' AZ Republic had income figures for Maricopa County in the Business section.

Quoted: An E-6, with 12 years service, with an address in metro Phoenix, on active duty CONUS has a take home paycheck of $1900+ every two weeks.  This is a NET paycheck of around $48K.  A lot of military income is nontaxable, so the actual total income is in th fifties, but I think it would take a civilian income in excess of 60K to take home 48K +.

Yup, one of my close friend is stationed in Mesa, AZ, 10 years of service and an E-6. He easily clears $4,000 a month after taxes. I am a former financial advisor and I can tell you that it would take a normal person over 60K a year to even have close to his NET take home pay with all the benefits, vacation time, TDY, allowances and retirement package.

The average 25 years old male with a Bachelors makes total (medical, 401K, retirement) 35K a year before taxes, after all benefits are deducted and taxes taken out it's close to 24K a year. The same person would make closer to 32K in the Phoenix MSA and about 37K in the Los Angeles MSA. Now the "average" American would be a 37 year old with about 10 years of work experience and a Bachelor's degree, he should clear about $45K a year before taxes and benefits deductions.

If you consider that the average house cost $500k in California you can see why people are moving from there to the Phoenix MSA. At today's rate mortgage would be $3,000 a month and an additional $1,000 in property taxes and insurance. That's $4,000 a month, $48,000 a year just to own a house in CA, add in utlities, other costs of living and you are looking at about $75,000 a year to be able to own a home in CA and have a decent lifestyle. That's $75,000 NET take home pay. Now once we're in the Phoenix MSA that cost drops to about half and you can see why Phoenix have exploded when it comes to property values in the last 3 years.

But overall, we as Americans are making LESS than we did 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. The same job now would not afford you the same lifestyle it did even 10 years ago. It's not all roses anymore.

Quoted: Quoted: An E-6, with 12 years service, with an address in metro Phoenix, on active duty CONUS has a take home paycheck of $1900+ every two weeks.  This is a NET paycheck of around $48K.  A lot of military income is nontaxable, so the actual total income is in th fifties, but I think it would take a civilian income in excess of 60K to take home 48K +. Yup, one of my close friend is stationed in Mesa, AZ, 10 years of service and an E-6. He easily clears $4,000 a month after taxes. I am a former financial advisor and I can tell you that it would take a normal person over 60K a year to even have close to his NET take home pay with all the benefits, vacation time, TDY, allowances and retirement package. The average 25 years old male with a Bachelors makes total (medical, 401K, retirement) 35K a year before taxes, after all benefits are deducted and taxes taken out it's close to 24K a year. The same person would make closer to 32K in the Phoenix MSA and about 37K in the Los Angeles MSA. Now the "average" American would be a 37 year old with about 10 years of work experience and a Bachelor's degree, he should clear about $45K a year before taxes and benefits deductions. If you consider that the average house cost $500k in California you can see why people are moving from there to the Phoenix MSA. At today's rate mortgage would be $3,000 a month and an additional $1,000 in property taxes and insurance. That's $4,000 a month, $48,000 a year just to own a house in CA, add in utlities, other costs of living and you are looking at about $75,000 a year to be able to own a home in CA and have a decent lifestyle. That's $75,000 NET take home pay. Now once we're in the Phoenix MSA that cost drops to about half and you can see why Phoenix have exploded when it comes to property values in the last 3 years. But overall, we as Americans are making LESS than we did 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. The same job now would not afford you the same lifestyle it did even 10 years ago. It's not all roses anymore.

Where are you getting your information?  I am 25 with a bachelors degree and make a lot more then that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: An E-6, with 12 years service, with an address in metro Phoenix, on active duty CONUS has a take home paycheck of $1900+ every two weeks.  This is a NET paycheck of around $48K.  A lot of military income is nontaxable, so the actual total income is in th fifties, but I think it would take a civilian income in excess of 60K to take home 48K +. Yup, one of my close friend is stationed in Mesa, AZ, 10 years of service and an E-6. He easily clears $4,000 a month after taxes. I am a former financial advisor and I can tell you that it would take a normal person over 60K a year to even have close to his NET take home pay with all the benefits, vacation time, TDY, allowances and retirement package. The average 25 years old male with a Bachelors makes total (medical, 401K, retirement) 35K a year before taxes, after all benefits are deducted and taxes taken out it's close to 24K a year. The same person would make closer to 32K in the Phoenix MSA and about 37K in the Los Angeles MSA. Now the "average" American would be a 37 year old with about 10 years of work experience and a Bachelor's degree, he should clear about $45K a year before taxes and benefits deductions. If you consider that the average house cost $500k in California you can see why people are moving from there to the Phoenix MSA. At today's rate mortgage would be $3,000 a month and an additional $1,000 in property taxes and insurance. That's $4,000 a month, $48,000 a year just to own a house in CA, add in utlities, other costs of living and you are looking at about $75,000 a year to be able to own a home in CA and have a decent lifestyle. That's $75,000 NET take home pay. Now once we're in the Phoenix MSA that cost drops to about half and you can see why Phoenix have exploded when it comes to property values in the last 3 years. But overall, we as Americans are making LESS than we did 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. The same job now would not afford you the same lifestyle it did even 10 years ago. It's not all roses anymore. Where are you getting your information?  I am 25 with a bachelors degree and make a lot more then that.

Someone with a Bachelor's degree would understand the meaning of the term AVERAGE, as used above.  

Quoted: Where are you getting your information?  I am 25 with a bachelors degree and make a lot more then that.

That all depends on what that degree is in. Someone with a bachelor's in, say, 14th Century French Literature will probably make less (hopefully, much, much less) than someone with a bachelor's in electrical engineering.

It would be the median average of earnings as the mean would pull that even lower.

Obviously your degree is not in any sort of financial or mathematical field. I made a bit over 80k last year, I am 24 with a Bachelor's in Business and 3 years of Army time. This upcoming year I expect that to come down quite a bit since I switched into a career I love instead of one that drove me crazy and I hated. Yes I am crazy but ultimately I'll die a much happier person. I have friends that cleared less than 12k last year, I also have a half dozen other friends that cleared over 600k each last year. If you talked to one group of my friends they would think 25k is decent, the other would think anything less than 250k is a joke. One of them have made over 500k since January, ask him what the average income for a 25 year old is and he'd probably say 500k. My former boss is 34 years of age and averages a bit over 2 million NET per year, obviously he's not the average. Hence we devise a median income.

The typical male college graduate is unemployed for 12 months from the time they graduate until the time they recieve a job offer. That job offer is likely to be less than 30k a year except in a few places with few to no benefits. They would recieve a raise and promotion within 2 years and would than average about 35k a year.

That same male professional would likely not be able to afford marriage, children or a house until the age of 35 and would not be able to retire until they are well into their 60's. That is assuming home prices in their repective area have not rised to over the 350k mark and social security is still intact 30 years later. Life is harsh, some are doing better than others, but overall everything is doing worse.

I know a DPS officer that has made over $100,000 for the last 3 years, that includes like $40,000 overtime each year!

Quoted: I know a DPS officer that has made over $100,000 for the last 3 years, that includes like $40,000 overtime each year!

He must be retiring very soon!

So Winston was BANNED from ARFCOM eh?



I love pushing his buttons about the gay sex incidents at his home!

Quoted: So Winston was BANNED from ARFCOM eh?

Something about a "T" word incident.  I'll miss his gratuitous nonsense threads!