I guess its time for a CCW.  And now that the training time is half then what it was, there better be some drops in the class prices.  

Anyone know of $50 CCW classes?

Or at least what the new prices will be.

Why dont you become an instructor and do 50$ CCW classes?

9-10 years ago it was all new and there were quite a few instructors getting in on the boom.  There were quite a few for $50.  There was also a difference in instructors (experienced and not) regardless of price.    These days with the signups coming in slower, it seems like we have less instructors who were a Network Admin the previous week, and an airline ticket agent the week before.  But we're also not seeing $50 classes either.

CCW classes are free at the Pima County Rifle Range outside Tucson behind the Pima County Fairgrounds.

I charge $75 for the class and $25 for other state certifications. Sometimes I charge only $75 for all 3 certifications. Everything depends on my mood. I don't charge friends anything for the class or renewals.

But, why should we drop our price? The outcome is still the same, right? You still get your permit..Isn't that the goal?

Quoted: CCW classes are free at the Pima County Rifle Range outside Tucson behind the Pima County Fairgrounds.

WHAT???

Quoted: But, why should we drop our price? The outcome is still the same, right? You still get your permit..Isn't that the goal?

This epitomizes the educational system in this country.

“Little Johnny learned half as much but he still got his High School diploma, wasn’t that the goal”.

If I take a class I want to get something out of it more than a piece of paper.  The goal should be to learn something.  If I am going to walk away with only half as much knowledge I wouldn’t want to pay full price.

Quoted: Quoted: But, why should we drop our price? The outcome is still the same, right? You still get your permit..Isn't that the goal? This epitomizes the educational system in this country. “Little Johnny learned half as much but he still got his High School diploma, wasn’t that the goal”. If I take a class I want to get something out of it more than a piece of paper.  The goal should be to learn something.  If I am going to walk away with only half as much knowledge I wouldn’t want to pay full price.

Wow.  I think you have completely missed the point.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But, why should we drop our price? The outcome is still the same, right? You still get your permit..Isn't that the goal? This epitomizes the educational system in this country. “Little Johnny learned half as much but he still got his High School diploma, wasn’t that the goal”. If I take a class I want to get something out of it more than a piece of paper.  The goal should be to learn something.  If I am going to walk away with only half as much knowledge I wouldn’t want to pay full price. Wow.  I think you have completely missed the point.

How do you figure?  Everyone is saying "well you still get your CCW so who cares."

I care that I am only being taught for 8 hours, who should I pay the same price that was for 16 hours of knowledge?

When I bill out my time at work, and I work for a client for 8 hours, I bill for 8 hours.  The client had 8 hours of my knowledge at their disposal.

I dont say "well I got the job done and last year it took 16 hours, so I am going to bill for 16 hours even though it only took 8.  You should be happy because you got what you want in the end."

Quoted: Quoted: But, why should we drop our price? The outcome is still the same, right? You still get your permit..Isn't that the goal? This epitomizes the educational system in this country. “Little Johnny learned half as much but he still got his High School diploma, wasn’t that the goal”. If I take a class I want to get something out of it more than a piece of paper.  The goal should be to learn something.  If I am going to walk away with only half as much knowledge I wouldn’t want to pay full price.

What is it that you expect to learn? What would be your expectations in a CCW class?

You do learn something. You learn what the state wants you to learn. We are told what to teach you and how long we must spend on each subject for you to be qualified, by their standards, to carry a weapon concealed. That is the goal. If you want classes in Cover and Concealment, Weapon Tactics, Long Range Rifle or Carbine, you must attend THOSE classes. We don't teach that in the CCW classes. Anything extra is a gift from the Instructor.

Let's break it down here... If I were to charge you $50 for the class, that would be $6.25/hr broken down at a hourly rate. Now, take into consideration the rent we pay, liability insurance, office supplies, annual NRA fees for instructors,  the training we had to take to become instructors, and sometimes range fees...

I pay:
$500/yr for Liability Insurance
$100 per class rent at the Elks Lodge
$300-$500/yr for Office Supplies (approx)

You guys have no idea what's involved. Most of us charged less to keep competitive and fill classes when they were 16 hours. We don't have a built in range like Caswells. We had to do with what we had. So, you guys bitching about price, go to Caswells and pay the $150 for their training and you will get exactly what you would have received in my class for $75.. Your state required CCW class for your permit!!

As I said before, why would you expect the instructor to be paid an "hourly rate"?  That is the only logical conclusion to the fact that you believe the class should be cheaper because it is shorter.

The instructor doesn't develop the cirriculum (per se), the state does.  The state dictates the topics, and timeline.

The instructor is only doing one task.  Providing the state sanction material in the required timeframe.  He bills for the ENTIRE job, not by hour.  If you don't think their effort is worth the $75 or whatever for the initial class, then don't use them.  

Would you expect them all to charge more, if the state raised the requirement to 18 hours from 16?

Quoted: As I said before, why would you expect the instructor to be paid an "hourly rate"?  That is the only logical conclusion to the fact that you believe the class should be cheaper because it is shorter. The instructor doesn't develop the cirriculum (per se), the state does.  The state dictates the topics, and timeline. The instructor is only doing one task.  Providing the state sanction material in the required timeframe.  He bills for the ENTIRE job, not by hour.  If you don't think their effort is worth the $75 or whatever for the initial class, then don't use them.   Would you expect them all to charge more, if the state raised the requirement to 18 hours from 16?

Um no that is not the only logical conclusion.

Time is money.  An instructor now has the ability to teach two classes in the same time that only one was taught before.  Therefore they can make double the money by charging the same price as before.  As a student, I am only gaining 8 hours of knowledge for my money when before I receied 16.  

If you put it together......
The instructor can now make double the money for the same amount of work
I gain half the knowledge for the same amount of money.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But, why should we drop our price? The outcome is still the same, right? You still get your permit..Isn't that the goal? This epitomizes the educational system in this country. “Little Johnny learned half as much but he still got his High School diploma, wasn’t that the goal”. If I take a class I want to get something out of it more than a piece of paper.  The goal should be to learn something.  If I am going to walk away with only half as much knowledge I wouldn’t want to pay full price. What is it that you expect to learn? What would be your expectations in a CCW class? You do learn something. You learn what the state wants you to learn. We are told what to teach you and how long we must spend on each subject for you to be qualified, by their standards, to carry a weapon concealed. That is the goal. If you want classes in Cover and Concealment, Weapon Tactics, Long Range Rifle or Carbine, you must attend THOSE classes. We don't teach that in the CCW classes. Anything extra is a gift from the Instructor. Let's break it down here... If I were to charge you $50 for the class, that would be $6.25/hr broken down at a hourly rate. Now, take into consideration the rent we pay, liability insurance, office supplies, annual NRA fees for instructors,  the training we had to take to become instructors, and sometimes range fees... I pay: $500/yr for Liability Insurance $100 per class rent at the Elks Lodge $300-$500/yr for Office Supplies (approx) You guys have no idea what's involved. Most of us charged less to keep competitive and fill classes when they were 16 hours. We don't have a built in range like Caswells. We had to do with what we had. So, you guys bitching about price, go to Caswells and pay the $150 for their training and you will get exactly what you would have received in my class for $75.. Your state required CCW class for your permit!!

First dont think for one second people here do not know what it takes to run a business.  You will not find any sympathy.  We are not all kids sitting in our moms basement pounding away on the keyboard.

My $50 point wasnt so much about the money (as in the dollar figure).  It was more the knowledge that instructors will not cut their fees because of this change, I can see it now.  Its like the gas stations, once the price per gallon of gas is way up there, what incentive do they have to lower the price?

Quoted: Quoted: As I said before, why would you expect the instructor to be paid an "hourly rate"?  That is the only logical conclusion to the fact that you believe the class should be cheaper because it is shorter. The instructor doesn't develop the cirriculum (per se), the state does.  The state dictates the topics, and timeline. The instructor is only doing one task.  Providing the state sanction material in the required timeframe.  He bills for the ENTIRE job, not by hour.  If you don't think their effort is worth the $75 or whatever for the initial class, then don't use them.   Would you expect them all to charge more, if the state raised the requirement to 18 hours from 16? Um no that is not the only logical conclusion. Time is money.  An instructor now has the ability to teach two classes in the same time that only one was taught before.  Therefore they can make double the money by charging the same price as before.  As a student, I am only gaining 8 hours of knowledge for my money when before I receied 16.   If you put it together...... The instructor can now make double the money for the same amount of work I gain half the knowledge for the same amount of money.

If the instructor has to use the same amount of work, why would you only gain half the knowledge?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As I said before, why would you expect the instructor to be paid an "hourly rate"?  That is the only logical conclusion to the fact that you believe the class should be cheaper because it is shorter. The instructor doesn't develop the cirriculum (per se), the state does.  The state dictates the topics, and timeline. The instructor is only doing one task.  Providing the state sanction material in the required timeframe.  He bills for the ENTIRE job, not by hour.  If you don't think their effort is worth the $75 or whatever for the initial class, then don't use them.   Would you expect them all to charge more, if the state raised the requirement to 18 hours from 16? Um no that is not the only logical conclusion. Time is money.  An instructor now has the ability to teach two classes in the same time that only one was taught before.  Therefore they can make double the money by charging the same price as before.  As a student, I am only gaining 8 hours of knowledge for my money when before I receied 16.   If you put it together...... The instructor can now make double the money for the same amount of work I gain half the knowledge for the same amount of money. If the instructor has to use the same amount of work, why would you only gain half the knowledge?

uhhhh, how does 8 hours of class time vs 16 hours of class time translate to gaining the same amount of knowledge?

The class is now only 8 hours when before it was 16................................................

You are using circular logic to try and prove your point.  

Because, the state recognized that the timeframe requirements were beyond what was needed to cover the subject matter, it cut the timeframe requirements.  That is why you were finally correct when you stated the instructor is having to put forth the SAME amount of effort.

If your instructor is having to cover the same material in 8 hours, as if he was teaching it to you in 16, then he should charge more for having to doing the same amount of work in 1/2 the time.

Quoted: You are using circular logic to try and prove your point.   Because, the state recognized that the timeframe requirements were beyond what was needed to cover the subject matter, it cut the timeframe requirements. If your instructor is putting forth the EXACT same amount of effort to teach the class in 8 hours as if he was teaching it to you in 16, then he should charge more for having to doing the same amount of work in 1/2 the time.

I guess I dont understand how you figure an instructor is putting forth the same amount of effort whether the class is 16 hours or 8 hours.  When I work a 16 hour day I feel like I worked much longer then just 8 hours.

So are you saying the instructors were really teaching for only 8 hours before?  That the other 8 hours everyone just stood around doing nothing?

Look the point is, previously I paid for 16 hours of instruction and class time.

Now I am paying for 8 hours.

I dont see why that is so hard to understand?

Quoted: Quoted: As I said before, why would you expect the instructor to be paid an "hourly rate"?  That is the only logical conclusion to the fact that you believe the class should be cheaper because it is shorter. The instructor doesn't develop the cirriculum (per se), the state does.  The state dictates the topics, and timeline. The instructor is only doing one task.  Providing the state sanction material in the required timeframe.  He bills for the ENTIRE job, not by hour.  If you don't think their effort is worth the $75 or whatever for the initial class, then don't use them.   Would you expect them all to charge more, if the state raised the requirement to 18 hours from 16? Um no that is not the only logical conclusion. Time is money.  An instructor now has the ability to teach two classes in the same time that only one was taught before.  Therefore they can make double the money by charging the same price as before.  As a student, I am only gaining 8 hours of knowledge for my money when before I receied 16.   If you put it together...... The instructor can now make double the money for the same amount of work I gain half the knowledge for the same amount of money.

If your going into the class expecting to learn 16 packed hours or even 8 packed hours of gun information, your either severly mistaken or have no businss taking the class.

90% of what the classes teach is information you SHOULD ALREADY KNOW..... consider it a refersher if you will.... there are only a few things you should worry about that are new.



Edit: Maybe it would help if you considered it a "contract" wage or a "salary" wage instead of hourly?  Come on

Quoted: You are using circular logic to try and prove your point.   Because, the state recognized that the timeframe requirements were beyond what was needed to cover the subject matter, it cut the timeframe requirements.  That is why you were finally correct when you stated the instructor is having to put forth the SAME amount of effort. If your instructor is having to cover the same material in 8 hours, as if he was teaching it to you in 16, then he should charge more for having to doing the same amount of work in 1/2 the time.

You are incorrect.  Here are the links to the 16 and 8 hour lesson plans.  The 16 hour plan goes into more detail and far more is taught to the student.  Things that are covered in the 16 hour class are only "Briefly discussed" in the 8 hour class.

http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/8hrlessonplanweb.pdf
http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/outline.asp

Quoted: Quoted: You are using circular logic to try and prove your point.   Because, the state recognized that the timeframe requirements were beyond what was needed to cover the subject matter, it cut the timeframe requirements. If your instructor is putting forth the EXACT same amount of effort to teach the class in 8 hours as if he was teaching it to you in 16, then he should charge more for having to doing the same amount of work in 1/2 the time. I guess I dont understand how you figure an instructor is putting forth the same amount of effort whether the class is 16 hours or 8 hours.  When I work a 16 hour day I feel like I worked much longer then just 8 hours. So are you saying the instructors were really teaching for only 8 hours before?  That the other 8 hours everyone just stood around doing nothing? Look the point is, previously I paid for 16 hours of instruction and class time. Now I am paying for 8 hours. I dont see why that is so hard to understand?

You are the one who said the instructors are putting forth the same amount of effort.  Not I.

Did you sit through an 16 hour class?  Did you think it was necessary to cover weapon care and maintenance in a CCW class?  Most of the section are full of wasted time, as the topics are covered fairly quickly and the rest of the time is "filler" to meet the DPS requirements.

The real important elements in the class are law subject matter.  To whit, where can you carry, and where can't you.  When are you justified in threatining/using deadly physical force, and when aren't you justified.  Those topics can be covered sufficiently, and in great detail, within the timeframe.

Quoted: First dont think for one second people here do not know what it takes to run a business.  You will not find any sympathy.  We are not all kids sitting in our moms basement pounding away on the keyboard. My $50 point wasnt so much about the money (as in the dollar figure).  It was more the knowledge that instructors will not cut their fees because of this change, I can see it now.  Its like the gas stations, once the price per gallon of gas is way up there, what incentive do they have to lower the price?

Who asked for sympathy? I was giving you facts. If you don't want to pay $75 for a class, then don't. Go pay $150 at Caswells. When the class was 16 hours, much time was wasted. I spent several hours watching NRA videos and at the range. We taught how to clean guns and which safe and holster were right for their gun. Now, I don't have to watch stupid videos and try to fill time. You still get the same amount of "knowledge" but we cut the bullshit waste of time...

And, you will find that many instructors will cut their fees to their friends, members of a certain message board they frequent, or people who they have done business with in the past, or high numbers in a group. Like I said, I often give away the class for free. I have given several free renewals and classes to members here who I know and are cool to me, are honest, and don't screw me in deals..

Quoted: You are using circular logic to try and prove your point.   Because, the state recognized that the timeframe requirements were beyond what was needed to cover the subject matter, it cut the timeframe requirements.  That is why you were finally correct when you stated the instructor is having to put forth the SAME amount of effort. If your instructor is having to cover the same material in 8 hours, as if he was teaching it to you in 16, then he should charge more for having to doing the same amount of work in 1/2 the time.

Exactly!
   Here's the thing... The way it was setup before as a 16 hour mandated course you would spend the first day basically book work, law & case study, using deadly force scenarios etc....class discussion of scenarios etc. Then the second day you would learn how to clean your handgun properly and then go to the range to qualify. At the end of that, finger printing or simply collecting finger print cards and getting all the paperwork organized to send off, etc., was done.( I may have left out a few things)

   I have taken the class twice and there was a whole lot of down time. At least 2-3 hours of the first 8 was spent just swapping stories about gun safety or a situation someone had etc. Most of the stuff is common sense. If you haven't already learned basic firearms knowledge and safety or how to shoot yet you shouldn't be taking a CCW class period IMHO.
   Filling 16 hours with what you need to know to have a CCW, I think is just a waste of time. I rather just go through everything from start to finish then qualify and go home in 8 hours rather than spread it out and just kill time to fill up the time. If you already have your basic safety and firearm knowledge you could read everything you need to know about CCW in about one hour. An Instructor can take that One hour's worth of reading and knowledge and mix it up a bit adding some true to life experiences and maybe even going a little bit deeper into certain subjects to fill 4 hours of discussion then go into the qualifying.
   
If you want a 16 hour course I believe Scottsdale Community College offers Firearms I & II still. I may be wrong... They stretch it out for you over two days if that's what you need.


-John

Again just to note I don't really care one way or another//
But I do see both sides, Yea 1/2 the training seems like the class should cost less, but it also seem like (again you get what you pay for) that the 16 hour class was just 8 hours of training and 8 hours of the instructor wasting our time, (as stated in previous post).
I don't think the paid by the hour argument works either, if it were one person in the class then yes it would amount to $6.25 an hour but we all no that's not the case, or you could look at it like this 20 people in the class = $125. per hour, and the latter is the more correct way to look at it based on an hourly fee.
I think both party are correct, you charge what you charge, you learn what the instructor has to teach, and you get what you pay for.
We will just have to see if some instructors lower there prices or if they all stay the same. If Caswels lowered there's to $50 or $75 the I think many others would fallow. ( reference to Caswels only because they were use a as reference in earlier post).
I'm glade the class is 8 hours now, quite frankly I think the whole thing is just a waist of time, but again maybe its because the classes I went to were just sucked.
Id pay the fee just to get the renewal with out taking the class.
So whos right? both partys

They are $50 here....class is free, 50 for the paperwork and range time.

www.tucsonshooting.com/SERP/

Quoted: You get what you pay for... most good classes are in the $100+ range

Not nessarly true.  I think we had a great class for $75.00

from what I hear, the CCW class is mostly what any competent shooter would know already. It is just to be allowed to carry concealed is what you pay for. If you want to learn something take a tactical course or something. If I had the option to take a 16 hour CCW course for $60 or an 8 hour course for $100, I would gladly pay the $100 to save myself half of the weekend. While I see your point, that instructors are only using half of their time for the same money. But now at least it only takes half of my time to get to my goal as well.

Quoted: Quoted: CCW classes are free at the Pima County Rifle Range outside Tucson behind the Pima County Fairgrounds. WHAT???

Yupper. I was at the range and asked what one of their buildings was for, for hunter safety and CCW classes. I asked how much for a CCW class, and they said the class is free, but you have to pay for the fingerprint and processing fee (like all other classes). I don't have the phone number for the range, but here is a url.
Pima County Rifle Range

I'm hoping they begin a renewal class in the future.

Great range for sighting in on, nice people.

Quoted: Great range for sighting in on, nice people.

Why would you want to sight in on the nice people?

Shouldn't you be sighting in on the bad people?


     

Nevermind.

I signed up for the class on the 16th of October at:
Southeast Regional Park Shooting Range
11296 S. Harrison Rd.
Tucson, Arizona


OCT 16th Sunday 8 AM
Need to bring a pistol and at least 10 rounds ammo.
Class is free; Range & CCW target is $6.25
Need to send a check for $50 into the DPS with fingerprints if you want the CCW license.

www.tucsonshooting.org/SERP.php

Quoted: I signed up for the class on the 16th of October at: Southeast Regional Park Shooting Range 11296 S. Harrison Rd. Tucson, Arizona OCT 16th Sunday 8 AM Need to bring a pistol and at least 10 rounds ammo. Class is free; Range & CCW target is $6.25 Need to send a check for $50 into the DPS with fingerprints if you want the CCW license. www.tucsonshooting.org/SERP.php

FYI: The fee went up to $65.00 and DPS doesn't accept checks. Needs to be a Cashiers Check or Money Order

Quoted: Quoted: I signed up for the class on the 16th of October at: Southeast Regional Park Shooting Range 11296 S. Harrison Rd. Tucson, Arizona OCT 16th Sunday 8 AM Need to bring a pistol and at least 10 rounds ammo. Class is free; Range & CCW target is $6.25 Need to send a check for $50 into the DPS with fingerprints if you want the CCW license. www.tucsonshooting.org/SERP.php FYI: The fee went up to $65.00 and DPS doesn't accept checks. Needs to be a Cashiers Check or Money Order

Is 10 rounds the number for qualifying?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I signed up for the class on the 16th of October at: Southeast Regional Park Shooting Range 11296 S. Harrison Rd. Tucson, Arizona OCT 16th Sunday 8 AM Need to bring a pistol and at least 10 rounds ammo. Class is free; Range & CCW target is $6.25 Need to send a check for $50 into the DPS with fingerprints if you want the CCW license. www.tucsonshooting.org/SERP.php FYI: The fee went up to $65.00 and DPS doesn't accept checks. Needs to be a Cashiers Check or Money Order Is 10 rounds the number for qualifying?

Yep... 5 at 5yds and 5 at 10yds on a NRA TQ-15 target...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I signed up for the class on the 16th of October at: Southeast Regional Park Shooting Range 11296 S. Harrison Rd. Tucson, Arizona OCT 16th Sunday 8 AM Need to bring a pistol and at least 10 rounds ammo. Class is free; Range & CCW target is $6.25 Need to send a check for $50 into the DPS with fingerprints if you want the CCW license. www.tucsonshooting.org/SERP.php FYI: The fee went up to $65.00 and DPS doesn't accept checks. Needs to be a Cashiers Check or Money Order Is 10 rounds the number for qualifying? Yep... 5 at 5yds and 5 at 10yds on a NRA TQ-15 target...

4 of each in the "A" zone or something like that?