Hey all,

Un-fun story to tell.  12sh years ago I bought my first AR15 and since then I have bought and sold many ARs.

As of last week I had 2 lowers that were from pre-2016 and 2 lowers I purchased in 2017.

Not knowing any better, I configured all for of them with bullet buttons, fixed stocks, muzzle breaks and pistol grips.

I then re-registered all the bullet button guns via the DOJ's website.

Last Thursday at 8:30PM I received a knock at my front door and on the other side of it were 6 DOJ officers in full tactical gear with 3 unmarked Ford Explorers parked on the street.  I live in a nice neighborhood full of $700k houses, so their presence was definitely noticed.

I greeted them warmly and asked what I could do for them.  They told me that I had registered my ARs on the DOJ website and they were coming by to verify what I had was what I registered.  Thinking I was on the up-and-up, I brought them into my garage, opened my gun safe, and allowed them to inspect my rifles.  After a couple minutes, the officer in charge turned to me and said "good news is, you did everything like you were supposed to.  You had AR15s with bullet buttons and you registered them like an honest citizen.  Bad news is, you have configured 2 of your rifles illegally, and we are going to confiscate them for destruction."

I was completely taken off guard as all 4 of my ARs were configured roughly the same way, the only real difference was barrel length, optic, and caliber.  They all had the same muzzle break, the same stock, the same grips, the same free-float handguards, etc. etc.  To the untrained eye, they all looked like the same gun.

But, I was not aware of the changes that came in 1/2017.

I asked them permission to remove my upper from the lowers to allow them to take the lowers and they refused.  I asked them permission to remove my optics from the uppers and they refused.  They took the guns exactly as they found them.  I asked them if they had opened my safe and found the lowers sitting their with uppers/optics unattached, would they have taken the upper/optics and they said "no".

Long story short...know the laws.  And maybe leave your lowers and your uppers separate of each other while being stored.

RIP to my AR10 and one of my AR15s...there goes $3k down the drain.

Your biggest mistakes included trusting the DOJ, letting them into your home and safe, and thinking you had nothing to hide and would be fine because you think you're on the "up and up".  Never trust LE, never concede anything to them, and don't register guns with people who want to take them away.  Doing the opposite can lead to bad consequences, as was the case here.  Have you at least consulted a lawyer?  I sure as heck would after that sort of interaction if I had the means.

I am not LEO of any type just wanting to better understand and maximize the lessons learned from this.

What City?

What agency?  DOJ does not explain it to me.

Did they have a Search Warrant and was it presented to you?

What were the offending configurations?  Sounds like Bullet Button and pistol grip was the problem.

What steps can you take to recover your property that was seized but is not covered by the laws (optics, uppers, triggers, butt stocks, etc)?  I'm thinking the lower receiver and Bullet Button were the offending items.  Getting the rest back would reduce the cost of your screw up to $500 and some frazzled nerves.

If they ever outlaw all semi-autos, they will discover only one bare receiver in my possession and only after presenting a judicially-SIGNED search warrant will they see it.  All my other rifles including my M1 Garand will be manually operated repeaters.

Imagine them collecting a December, 1941 Garand for destruction.  What an utter disgrace this State has become.  

Featureless is the way to go.

Where is Featureless when you need him?

<deleted... "antburner" remarks> DrFrige

This. Unless their is a warrant you don't give in to sh*t. Never, ever. And you never register anything, ever.

You said they were all configured the same but two obviously weren't.  What was the issue with those ones?

Are they spot checking or checking all guns?

Can you add more details?

What county do you live in?

What were the guns that they took? (Barrel length, stock, pistol grip...)

Registration of bullet button "assault weapons" is only allowed for 12/31/2016 and earlier rifles.  Apparently you may have told them (in attempting to register) you had two post 12/31/2016 lowers that you'd configured illegally.  I'd suggest lawyering up and not discussing it any further on an open forum without legal advice.  I'd also expect that when some people frantically try to comply and register as July approaches, as opposed to reconfiguring their rifles, that there will be more who bungle it.

If I’m tracking what he posted correctly, he assembled 2 lowers purchased after 12/31/2016 with bullet buttons and pistol grips.

They had to be configured prior to that.

In the eyes of CADOJ he created 2 illegal/unregisterable assault weapons.

This isn’t GD.  Go away.

That seems to be exactly correct.  And if correct, it has nothing to do with configuration, barrel length, or model; it is simply that building bullet-button rifles became illegal on 1/1/2017.

Judging by the story posted by the OP, he got off very easy, without any criminal charges, just with the loss of two rifles worth several thousand dollars.  If the CADoJ wanted to be nasty, they could have charged him with two counts of possession of assault weapons under section 30605 (1 year each, a misdemeanor), plus manufacturing two assault weapons (a felony, punishable by 4 to 8 years) under section 30600, which implies lifelong loss of gun rights.

They still might.  They don't always charge immediately.  OP really should lawyer up and maybe even delete his post.

I need to register one, or two, of my rifles. I better get on this ASAP. But, what happens if they reject your app and it takes you past the deadline? Will they alliw you to fix your app mistakes?

Why should the OP delete his post?  He already admitted the 2017 purchase date in the registration to the DoJ.

I also don't see why he needs to lawyer up yet.  What would that accomplish?  The ongoing crime of possession has been terminated (by having the rifles confiscated), the crime of building an AW has been committed and no attorney can get those facts to go away.  No need to spend money yet.  But it would be a good idea to have the contact information of a good criminal defense attorney with gun law experience handy.

I find it unlikely that the DoJ will prosecute.  As far as they are concerned, the problem has been solved.  Given the overload of the court system and the jails, and the fact that all DAs have too much real work, I find it unlikely that they will follow up.

The law is very clear: You need to register before the deadline.  Giving them truthful and complete information does satisfy that requirement.  It doesn't say that you need to complete the registration in spite of all the incompetence and delays of the DoJ.  And if it comes to a lawsuit, the argument of "detrimental reliance" would be very good.  The stories I hear is that the DoJ is bending over backwards to allow registrations to complete right now, even when people are not being conscientious (i.e., forgetting to follow up within the required 30 days).  The DoJ doesn't want to get a wave of expensive complaints and lawsuits, and much rather get lots of rifles registered.  Still they are picky and bureaucratic, and make trouble for inane minor details.

Still, the sooner you start, the better: the current delays seem to run from 60 (my rifles) to 120 days.

Thank you! And, for the record, any stripped lower receiver bought in 2017 can only be configured as a featureless rifle, correct?

Did they check the legalities of any other firearms that were present in the safe, besides the ARs?
Did they run serial numbers?

The OP's tale is not a one off, there have been several similar incidents relayed on Calguns.  A number of folks believed they were doing the right thing but in fact were building a bullet button weapon after the 12/31/16 cut off.  The state legislators passed these bills but there was little to no notice to the public, outside of those who visit Calguns on any regular basis. To date, I have not heard of any of the others facing charges...yet.

To those who still plan on registering, start now.  The system is onerous, doubly so if you are joint registering with your spouse or adult children (who live at home).  I registered 6 rifles, and did joint registration with my wife...took me almost 6 hours to complete all the inputs.  Then all six were rejected for fairly minor issues which were easily resolved.  On five of them I claimed the caliber I built the gun as but Cal DOJ wanted them listed as "having interchangeable barrels".  On one I listed a vertical fore grip for my Magpul AFG (because folks prior to me were being rejected for not listing the fore grip)...nope, DOJ rejected it saying that I claimed a "feature" not present.  I have other guns that I made featureless and din't register.

As I understand, if the process is started before the cut off date, those who are in the system will be able to continue correcting and resubmitting.

There are a couple of in depth threads on Calguns outlining all of this...I want to say they are in the 2nd Amendment and Legal forums. They are worth the read.

No.  They can be configured as a featureless rifle or as a fixed magazine rifle.  “Fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.  So that would include both those that work by opening the rifle action or those with some sort of stripper or charger feeding process.

Thanks.

After reading this little tid-bit does it mean that if one does not have a VFG at the time of registration that one can not be added after? Basically, once it is registered a in a certain way you can't make any changes. Or is this just a really stupid interpretation on my part? It probably is, but just had to ask.

Ah I see, thanks man

As I understand it, once duly registered you can change almost anything about the gun EXCEPT the bullet button.  CA minimum length is 30 inches overall if not an "assault weapon" but after registration one can shorten overall length to 26 inches, can add VFG, or change a brake to a flash hider or vice versa. Yet somehow changing the bullet button for a standard mag release creates a "new" assault weapon. I'm sure that will get challenged in court.

When I travel out of state I bring some standard mag releases with me. Once I get out of state I swap releases on my bullet buttoned rifles and remove the grip wrap from my featureless ones so I have mostly normal rifles. I return them to CA legal before crossing back behind the curtain.

Correct, also my understanding.

You are correct on the result, incorrect on the reasoning.  Removing the bullet button does not create a new assault weapon.  Instead, in order to be registrable, the weapon has to be in a configuration that was legal before 1/1/2017, and banned but registrable (meaning BB) after.  Once you remove the BB, the weapon is not registrable, and if it had been registered beforehand, that registration stops applying.  A lot of gun people had thought that the identity of a gun is nothing more than the make, model and serial number of the lower, and that the registration only applies to the identity of the gun.  But that's not an argument: a lower without upper or FCG is not registrable, as it is not a centerfire semiauto gun.  So the identity of the weapon is defined by all the parts that are legally relevant: the upper (centerfire or rimfire), the fire control (semi auto or bolt/pull/single-shot), and the magazine (fixed, detachable, or BB).

I don't know how far the court challenge has gone.  I see grave danger in it; if some supposed pro-gun advocacy group does too good a job of challenging this legal mine field, the court might easily find other inconsistency in law and regulation, and we might end up with something much worse.  I took the example out, because (a) this site doesn't allow me to post more than 2000 characters, and (b) the DoJ might read it and like it.

Are they requiring pictures?

Thanks.

No, there's the new fixed mag methods similar to the bullet button available

I like featureless, except for the grip part

Yes, at least four.

They require a full length of the gun, left side of the receiver, right side of the receiver and a close up of the installed bullet button or other mag locking device (for AKs, Tavors etc). I also did a close up of the serial number because some of the left side shots the serial number blurred when trying to zoom in. I did not get asked for any additional photos but others reported being asked to supply better shots of the serial, or a different angle on the bullet button, I assume to be able to the the nut inside.

I would suggest getting all your photos together ahead of time for each rifle you plan to register, this will make life much easier when your start the process.

Yes.

Thanks for all the comments everyone, I was just trying to share my story and spread awareness.  Like I said, I didn't realize what I was doing was wrong.

FWIW, the DOJ officers were very nice to me.  After they completed their work, they all shook my hand and told me I was the most understanding and easy to work with individual they had dealt with that day.

They also said that because I surrendered the firearms there would be no further repercussions, and there would be nothing added to my record.

They also told me that the previous person they had visited had suppressors in his gun safe, and now he was in jail.  My neighbor is a police officer and verified their remarks.

They did run the numbers on the other firearms in my safe.

I did not request to see a search warrant.  As I said, when they announced themselves they said "we are from the DOJ, you registered 4 ARs and we are here to verify what you registered is what you have."  I saw no reason to deny them entry as I assumed everything was correct.

I have since reached out to my State Representative and met him in his office to express my dis-satisfaction with not being allowed to remove my legal components from the rifle, though I don't expect it to go anywhere.

As I said in my OP, when you register your guns I would recommend registering them without anything attached to them, and i would store them in that same configuration.  Only combine upper/lower/optics/accessories when you are going to go shooting.

I also have a second gun safe I use to store my ammunition separate of my rifles.  They asked me what was in it, i told them, and they didn't search it as the items they were interested in were in the gun safe I had opened.

Live and learn.  It sucks to be out the $3k, but it's better than dealing with 6 heavily armed guys.  I preferred to deal with them in the moment in a professional manner and, if need be, address my concerns with their superiors.

Can you tell us your County and/or City?

I have to be honest ... this is one of the most disturbing things I've read on this forum. And to know the DOJ team had been to other residences that same day ... wow. Just wow. I fully understand the reason that two of the four rifles were apparently not "legal," but now knowing that State of California agents are actively going out and confiscating guns, looking in gun safes, running serial numbers, etc., holy shit. The only State law enforcement agency I've heard of that actively goes out to confiscate guns is the one that targets convicted felons in possession of guns. This is a whole new world with this crap. Insane.

Another reason to build featureless rifle... and never register shit

Registering guns is one thing, but sending photos of your guns is pure crap.
You are doing their job for them, making it easy to seize guns and make arrests.

I would expect more of these gun seizures, they are low hanging fruit, and are great for STATISTICS.

They didn't arrest OP because there was no intent to break the law, there was intent to follow the law, an arrest would not hold up in court.

What about an M1A? Does one have to register this type of rifle?

I'm sorry for what happened to you: an innocent mistake, and you are out $3K.  The lesson: in California, one can not make mistakes.

You win, jackpot.

I am not surprised by how many gun owners think they can get away with bending the rules a little bit, or a lot.  That's even more common than the ones who innocently make mistakes or don't know the rules.  Deliberately having illegal suppressors is astonishingly dumb.

You have to be careful:  The registered thing is a complete rifle, lower and upper.  As I said above, the "identity" of an assault weapon relies not just on the make/model/serial of the lower receiver, but also on being center-fire and semi-auto, which does require the correct type of fire control and upper.

The optics, on the other hand, is not affected by this, and that is a piece that you should have been able to retain, as it is not legally required as part of a registered AW.  Is it worth it to you to start a legal fight with the DoJ to get the scope back?  Only you can answer that question.

The OP has to be bullshit...

ETA: I just read the whole thread ...

No.  Unless it was a very weird M1A.

The current registration (and need for registration) is only for:

• Guns that were legal before 1/1/2017 due to the fact that they had a bullet button, which exempted them from the assault weapon law,


• that are otherwise assault weapons as defined by CA law, meaning they are centerfire semi-auto rifles with a non-fixed magazines, and with at least one "evil feature" (typically the pistol grip)


• and that are now grandfathered into becoming registered AWs due to the fact that the bullet button no longer suffices for being a non-fixed magazine.

M1As are centerfire semi-auto rifles with a removable magazine, but they typically have no pistol grip (nor flash hiders or any other evil features), so they are not assault weapons, therefore they did not need a bullet button previously, and don't need to be registered now.

Cool. Can’t wait until I move to Nevada, though.

I agree with your take on these events.  This is NOT good news to me.  In fact, as you said, it is probably the worst thing I've ever read on this forum.

I understand the OP's "professional" cooperation with the DOJ but I think he dropped the ball not asking for and reviewing the search warrant.  It makes me want to segregate my guns into two safes - my AR's in one and all others in the second.

Until recently, M1A's had flash hiders and they still do.  Only the specially re-designed ones that are "California-compliant" have the muzzle brake in lieu of the GI flash hider.

Also, I see a lot of M1A's that have been put into aftermarket stocks which have a pistol grip integral to the stock.  That would not comply.

Oops, sorry about that; I didn't know that most M1A's come with a flash hider in other states.  My bad.  This has little to do with the recent BB-equipped rifle registration, since the flash hider ban has been in place since 2001 or so.

QFP.

You made a mistake, simple as that. The police are far from your friends. Never trust them. Never register. Fuck the DOJ. You should have told them to leave and come back with a warrant if they didn't have one.

And you want to "address my concerns with their superiors"? Good luck with that. Their superiors are the ones who ordered them to do what they did. What do you think they're going to say, if you can even manage to get in contact with whoever is relevant that has any control over the situation? You think it's going to change anything? That they'll bother listening at all?

Why people haven't learned that law enforcement is not on your side, especially in shitholes like this state, I'll never know.

SLO County.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I have several friends in law enforcement, so it's easy for me to trust them.

That said, I work in a state organization and I'm well aware that the people at the bottom have no power and the people at the top only respond to 2 things, money and power.  There is a reason my state representative met me in his office, I'll leave it at that.

The take away from your story for all the people reading it should be that all that BS people like to spew about the police not coming to confiscate firearms because X fantasy reason is nonsense.

The cops on this site can talk big all they want about how they won't confiscate this or that and all the other cops they know won't either and blah blah blah but at the end of the day what's your average officer going to do when the orders come down and they have to go round up some guns? The livelihood of police and their families depend on the paycheck signed by the people who gave them that order. What are they going to do, tell them to fuck off? Great, now they're reprimanded and put on a desk job at best, fired at worst, and their superiors will just find someone else who is willing to do the job. And there's no shortage of people looking to shred your rights into little pieces at any chance they get.

NEVER trust law enforcement. They are not friends of the gun owning American. Especially law enforcement controlled by a state entity that has all but publicly professed it's utter hatred of us.

Despite the comments about not allowing LE's in I think most law abiding gun owners would have done the same.  You are in a bad situation in CA, even worse than when I lived there.  Thanks for spreading the word and helping others learn.

That needs to stop. Way too many people willing to just roll over, even when it's legal to not do so.

You do understand that any rifle (including lowers built into featureless rifles) sold since 2014 has already been "registered" by the state?  When you buy one, the make/model/serial is transferred to the DoJ as part of the DROS.

And for rifles bought before 2014: DoJ inspectors have been photographing or scanning the "bound books" of dealers when doing their annual inspections.  That probably means that the state at this point knows, at least a few years back before 2014, what exact make/model/serial people have bought.  That information may not be in the standard weapons database that can be queried by law enforcement, but is probably accessible by DoJ staff.  I suspect it is being used for APPS.

Not registering weapons in the belief that it keeps yourself or the weapons out of government records is foolish.

Note that according to the OP these were not "average officers" but DoJ law enforcement.  Not your local PD or sheriff's deputies, not even highway patrol, but DoJ officers.

Well. If this isn’t the definition of FO time I don’t what is.