User Panel
Posted: 2/3/2006 10:45:58 AM EDT
fuck me
From calguns IMPORTANT NOTICE California Department of Justice The Department of Justice (hereafter the Department@) has received numerous contacts from the public and firearms industry personnel regarding the legality of various AR-15/AK 47 "series" style firearms that have not yet been identified as Aseries@ assault weapons by the Department. The Department is also aware of the recent high volume of sales of these firearms. The Department has the statutory authority to identify Aseries@ assault weapons. In 2000, the California Supreme Court upheld that authority in Kasler v. Lockyer (2000) 23 Cal. 4th 472. The Department updated the list of "series" weapons in 2000 (as ACategory 2@ assault weapons), shortly after the Kasler decision. The registration period for Category 2 weapons ended on December 31, 2000. The California Supreme Court reiterated in 2003 that Athe Attorney General has the authority to determine that certain semiautomatic firearms are assault weapons by simply identifying them as such in the list published by the Attorney General in the California Code of RegulationsYtwo types of firearms defined in section 12276 by the use of the term series, namely the AK-47 series and the Colt AR-15 series.@ Harrott v. County of Kings (2003) 25 Cal. 4th 1138, 1155. Accordingly, the Department is currently in the process of identifying those firearms in the state which are variations, with minor differences, of AR-15/AK 47 "series" weapons. Once this process is complete, the Department will promulgate a list and file it with the Secretary of State=s office. Concurrently, the Department will begin updating the Assault Weapon Identification Guide which is currently available via the Department=s web-site at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/index.html. Once the list of newly identified Aseries@ weapons is filed with the Secretary of State, citizens who possess those weapons will have 90 days to register them with the Department of Justice. Newly identified Aseries@ weapons cannot legally have the features listed in Penal Code 12276.1 when they are registered. Those features cannot legally be added after the firearms are registered as assault weapons. The Penal Code 12276.1 features have been banned since January 1, 2000, when SB 23 went into effect. The public was notified of the prohibition on the specified features many years ago. IMPORTANT NOTICE Page Two The registration period for assault weapons with those characteristics (Category 3 assault weapons) ended on December 31, 2000. Because non-"series" assault weapons with 12276.1 features may not be offered for sale, manufactured, imported, or possessed in California, it follows that newly registered "series" weapons may not have the features listed in Penal Code 12276.1, either. The prohibition on the features listed in Penal Code section 12276.1 is consistent with current DOJ policy that named Aseries@ weapons are illegal, unless registered, regardless of whether they have the 12276.1 features. It is also consistent with the intent of the California state legislature to ban assault weapons, expressed in 1991 when Penal Code 12276(f) was enacted. This section is declaratory of existing law, as amended, and a clarification of the law and the Legislature=s intent which bans the weapons enumerated in this section, the weapons included in Section 12276.5, and any other models which are only minor variations of those weapons with minor differences, regardless of the manufacturer [emphasis added]. It should be noted that individuals who timely registered ACategory 1@ and ACategory 2@ assault weapons were allowed to keep or add the 12276.1 features on their firearms. Those generic features were not illegal during the registration period for Category 1 assault weapons. In August of 2000, when the Department identified the Category 2 Aseries@ weapons, it was legal to register weapons with those characteristics as Category 3 assault weapons. Firearms with those features could no longer be registered as of January 1, 2001. Therefore, newly identified Aseries@ (Category 4) weapons likewise cannot have those features. Registrants of newly identified series weapons cannot legally add Penal Code section 12276.1 features to those firearms. The Department intends to enforce this restriction through the assault weapon registration process. Registration acknowledgment letters will include an admonition to registrants that adding prohibited features to newly registered assault weapons will invalidate registration. The basis for valid registration will rest solely on the fact that the Department identifies the receivers for these firearms as variations, with minor differences, of already controlled AR-15/AK 47 Aseries@ weapons. All additional features of the newly identified "series" weapons must conform with current California law. Firearm manufacturers, wholesalers and dealers who misinform the public about the ability to legally add prohibited features to these newly listed firearms risk criminal prosecution. They could also face civil penalties of up to $2,500 per violation under the state=s Unfair Practices Act (California Business & Professions Code section 17000 et seq.). This information will be distributed to criminal justice agencies throughout the state, as well as to firearm dealers listed on the Department's Centralized List, via the formal Information Bulletin process. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. |
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I don't buy it. Don't give up yet. It's a scare tactic. They are running scared because they are incompetent and do not know quite how to shut us down. The courts will rule properly.
I hope. |
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We all knew this was one of the options for DOJ. Allow registration but prohibit manufacturing the stripped lowers into comple AW's.
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I think this kind of shows the DOJ can do whatever the hell it wants, regardless of law. I guess we'll have to see how this works out in court. There may be a whole bunch of pistol gripless ARs and AKs around soon. |
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Indeed. Several knowledgeable-sounding folks posted almost these exact words:
Of course, they were shouted down in the forums. What always disturbed me about the discussions regarding the DoJ's room for maneuver was how it was always declared that the DoJ will do this, and must do that and will not do this. It's always dangerous to use absolutes like that when discussing something as slippery as the law (if the law was always so clear-cut and simple we wouldn't need $400 per hour lawyers to tell us what it means). This was always going to be a gamble. Which is why I only bought two lowers. |
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FYI: 12276.1:
Senate Bill 23 Assault Weapon Characteristics Effective January 1, 2000, Senate Bill 23, Statutes of 1999, establishes new criteria for defining assault weapons based on generic characteristics. This bill allows and requires persons who own/possess firearms that fall under the new "assault weapon" definition to register those firearms with the Department of Justice during the one-year period between January 1, 2000 and December 31, 2000. Effective January 1, 2000, this bill adds Penal Code Section 12276.1 to the Penal Code as follows. 12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. (B) A thumbhole stock. (C) A folding or telescoping stock. (D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher. (E) A flash suppressor. (F) A forward pistol grip. (2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. (3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches. (4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. (B) A second handgrip. (C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel. (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip. (5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. (6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following: (A) A folding or telescoping stock. (B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip. (7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine. (8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder. (b) "Assault weapon" does not include any antique firearm. (c) The following definitions shall apply under this section: (1) "Magazine" shall mean any ammunition feeding device. (2) "Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds. (3) "Antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured prior to January 1, 1899. (d) This section shall become operative January 1, 2000. Are there any restrictions for the use of registered assault weapons? Yes. A person who has a registered assault weapon may possess it only under certain conditions as specified in Penal Code section 12285 (see below). 12285. (a)(1) Any person who lawfully possesses an assault weapon, as defined in Section 12276, prior to June 1, 1989, shall register the firearm by January 1, 1991, and any person who lawfully possessed an assault weapon prior to the date it was specified as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.5 shall register the firearm within 90 days, with the Department of Justice pursuant to those procedures that the department may establish. Except as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 12280, any person who lawfully possessed an assault weapon prior to the date it was defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.1, and which was not specified as an assault weapon under Section 12276 or 12276.5, shall register the firearm within one year of the effective date of Section 12276.1, with the department pursuant to those procedures that the department may establish. The registration shall contain a description of the firearm that identifies it uniquely, including all identification marks, the full name, address, date of birth, and thumbprint of the owner, and any other information that the department may deem appropriate. The department may charge a fee for registration of up to twenty dollars ($20) per person but not to exceed the actual processing costs of the department. After the department establishes fees sufficient to reimburse the department for processing costs, fees charged shall increase at a rate not to exceed the legislatively approved annual cost-of-living adjustment for the department's budget or as otherwise increased through the Budget Act. The fees shall be deposited into the Dealers' Record of Sale Special Account. (2) Except as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 12280, any person who lawfully possesses any .50 BMG rifle prior to January 1, 2005, that is not specified as an assault weapon under Section 12276 or 12276.5 or defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.1, shall register the .50 BMG rifle with the department no later than April 30, 2006, pursuant to those procedures that the department may establish. The registration shall contain a description of the firearm that identifies it uniquely, including all identification marks, the full name, address, date of birth, and thumbprint of the owner, and any other information that the department may deem appropriate. The department may charge a fee for registration of twenty-five dollars ($25) per person to cover the actual processing and public education campaign costs of the department. The fees shall be deposited into the Dealers' Record of Sale Special Account. Data-processing costs associated with modifying the department's data system to accommodate .50 caliber BMG rifles shall not be paid from the Dealers Record of Sale Special Account. (b)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), no assault weapon possessed pursuant to this section may be sold or transferred on or after January 1, 1990, to anyone within this state other than to a licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12290, or as provided in Section 12288. Any person who (A) obtains title to an assault weapon registered under this section or that was possessed pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12280 by bequest or intestate succession, or (B) lawfully possessed a firearm subsequently declared to be an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.5, or subsequently defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.1, shall, within 90 days, render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell the weapon to a licensed gun dealer, obtain a permit from the Department of Justice in the same manner as specified in Article 3 (commencing with Section 12230) of Chapter 2, or remove the weapon from this state. A person who lawfully possessed a firearm that was subsequently declared to be an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.5 may alternatively register the firearm within 90 days of the declaration issued pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 12276.5. (2) A person moving into this state, otherwise in lawful possession of an assault weapon, shall do one of the following: (A) Prior to bringing the assault weapon into this state, that person shall first obtain a permit from the Department of Justice in the same manner as specified in Article 3 (commencing with Section 12230) of Chapter 2. (B) The person shall cause the assault weapon to be delivered to a licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12290, in this state in accordance with Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto. If the person obtains a permit from the Department of Justice in the same manner as specified in Article 3 (commencing with Section 12230) of Chapter 2, the dealer shall redeliver that assault weapon to the person. If the licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12290, is prohibited from delivering the assault weapon to a person pursuant to this paragraph, the dealer shall possess or dispose of the assault weapon as allowed by this chapter. [snip of .50 Caliber BMG stuff see below] (f) For 90 days following January 1, 1992, a forgiveness period shall exist to allow persons specified in subdivision (b) of Section 12280 to register with the Department of Justice assault weapons that they lawfully possessed prior to June 1, 1989. (g)(1) Any person who registered a firearm as an assault weapon pursuant to the provisions of law in effect prior to January 1, 2000, where the assault weapon is thereafter defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.1, shall be deemed to have registered the weapon for purposes of this chapter and shall not be required to reregister the weapon pursuant to this section. [snip of .50 Caliber BMG stuff see below] (h) Any person who registers his or her assault weapon during the 90-day forgiveness period described in subdivision (f), and any person whose registration form was received by the Department of Justice after January 1, 1991, and who was issued a temporary registration prior to the end of the forgiveness period, shall not be charged with a violation of subdivision (b) of Section 12280, if law enforcement becomes aware of that violation only as a result of the registration of the assault weapon. This subdivision shall have no effect upon persons charged with a violation of subdivision (b) of Section 12280 of the Penal Code prior to January 1, 1992, provided that law enforcement was aware of the violation before the weapon was registered. |
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Where'd you see it? I looked and couldnt find anything... |
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Top right corner |
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The battle is not over yet. It has just begun.
This memo is actually poorly crafted. It's held out lotsa things that just can't happen. I even wonder if it's been vetted by a lawyer. I've written a rebuttal on Calguns.net. There are quite a few incorrect things on it - esp a key area in Jan 2001 where SB23 reg period stopped on 12/31/00 but Kasler reg period continued to 1/22/01. Bill Wiese San Jose |
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We were hoping for happy ending, but instead got a legal chess game.
At least we have a fighting chance. |
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This one kills me
"A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel". "without burning his or her hand" It's o.k as long as you suffer for it and get 2nd and 3rd degree burns( Serves you right) |
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These motherfuckers seriously have issues, making this shit up as they go along is tyrannical bullshit as my ass shitting fucking railroad spikes. Sorry I'm going to cry now. Cocksucking fucks
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Yeah that is one of the more ridiculous rules. I bet it was put on there specifically for the ultra evil Tec9. |
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So what exactly does it mean? You have to stick with the 10 round mag? Or you can't build the lower at all? Confused??
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To summarize, they are saying that 1. Once the list is updated, if your lower is included, it must be registered as an AW. We expected this. 2. Newly listed lowers must comply with SB23, i.e., they must have a fixed 10-rd mag OR no pistol grip*. Time to lawyer up. ETA: * or any other evil features: (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. (B) A thumbhole stock. (C) A folding or telescoping stock. (D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher. (E) A flash suppressor. (F) A forward pistol grip. |
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Pretty simple. It means you either assemble the lower as a FABforgery. Dont assemble it at all. Or make it some other type of SB23 compliant firearm like a dedicated rimfire, or straight pull bolt action. |
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Me, or my associate Miles_Quade href=glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=479351&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1 You know, it's only going to get worse from here, not better. Some of those folks over at Calguns are in denial, unwilling to even admit there's another side to the argument, or that when all is said and done the DOJ's interpretation might even be correct! Sure you can nit-pick certain aspects of their information bulletin, which someone probably cobbled together quickly just to put everyone on notice, but the gist of it is really simple (as Mesa Tactical pointed out in the Calguns thread): SB 23 assault weapons have been banned since 1/1/00. |
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Sure SB23 features have been illegal since 2000. But if you build the rifle SB23 compliant, why does it need to be registered? If it is registered as an AW, then feature count becomes moot. There are no "levels" of evilness. The Category 1,2,3 thing was to clarify the definition of an AW to joe public. It's either an AW, or it isn't. You can't be "sort of pregnant" |
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Yet soldier's that registered their "assault weapons" well after the registration period was over can have any and all the features..
Tell me how that works |
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Many people, myself included, thought this might be a possiblility. The scary part is the paragraph regarding enforcement via registration:
DOJ agent: Hello there, nice rifle, may I see your reg paperwork? Target Shooter: Sure, here it is (hands photocopy over). DOJ Agent: I see that you registered it properly...wait, it that mag detachable? Target Shooter: Yeah, see, um, this is a CMP match. DOJ Agent: Too bad, registration revoked on site...ILLEGAL POSSESSION - GET IN THE CAR! This would provide a situation where LEOs could determine, and revoke(?) AW registrations at will. I see this as a problem, and I am an LEO. We will never defeat the "list," not in this state. We will never revoke the AW laws in general, not in this state. If the DOJ's policy has a weak point, it is the "enforcement through registration" section. I predict our registration cards are going to have a section stating something to the effect of if we add the features, we knowingly will be in violation of the registration, and thus the law, and you know that, you evil bastard, and that proper and legal registration can not be completed unless you sign here:______________. That would be good enough for most of the judges I know, trust me. I hope I'm wrong, I don't want to sign any such acknowlegdement. Judge: Defendant is charged with possession of an assault rifle. Target Shooter: Of course it's an assault rifle, the DOJ and I agreed that it was (showing reg.). My lawyerhe I wish the DOJ could realize that the majority of people, like all of us on the forums, do what we can to enjoy our sport while remaining in compliance with the law. Interesting factoid: Many CA LEO's compete in "police olympics" type rifle matches in other states. I personally can live with my safe babies having a crown nut on the mag catches, at least until I get to AZ or NV. I predict a burning-man-style freedom shoot in AZ, twice a year. But without the dope. |
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If this is all that happened today why was the DOJ telling manufactures not to send in anymore lowers as Leelaw pointed out in his thread??
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hted..... |
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Basicly as long as I build my rifles with a locked 10 round mag they are fine in CA. I can still have my pistol grip correct? I guess it's better than nothing. Pretty much what was to be expected by CA's libatard govt.
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The problem I see is this. The memo is attempting to mix two things, the AR/AK list AND the SB23.
Why would SB-23 compliant firearms NEED to be registered? the letters from the DOJ acknowledged that STAG-15 lowers were not on the Kasler list and can be imported and constructed ONLY TO SB-23 requirements. Soooo..... why register if we are already compliant? Harrot was designed to address AR/AK lowers with stipulation, that the CA DOJ from time to time will add to the list and open registration. The SB-23 was designed to catch everything non AR/AK, such as FALs, M1A's, PTR91's etc. I must have missed the section that AR/AK listed firearms must also conform to SB-23, Why, because I don't think it exists... And if you follow that logic, am I now forced to register vulcans, Fab10's and calibushmasters? They weren't listed but are Sb-23 compliant. WHAT"S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FIXED MAG STAG AND ONE OF THOSE FIREARMS? A FELONY IF NOT REGISTERED? IT makes no sense whatsoever. I think we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.... |
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Because...
Today is just the memo, nothing has been banned yet. |
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Like I said, it seems to be a scare tactic. To spread fear and uncertainty. To effectively shut down or slow sales to the public. It absolutely reeks of desperation on their part. They screwed the pooch years ago on this issue, we finally took advantage of the obvious loophole that THEY left open.
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fixed it |
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I have this odd feeling that when you sign the paperwork never to add evil features, it can never be modified in any state you take it to. This is similar to a CA resident attempting to purchase a rifle in NV without an FFL, legal in NV but not for CA. |
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Not likely. Once you are in AZ (for example), AZ laws apply, not CA. Transport your legally neutered rifle to another state, "fix it," shoot to your heart's delight. Now you have to "neuter" it again before coming back into California. Unless AZ passes laws pretaining to CA travelling shooters (not likely), or a new federal AW law in enacted (slightly more likely), you're golden in free states.
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CA DOJ has no jurisdiction outside of CA.
Actually, I thought it would turn out like this. Remember Clinton? The federal AW ban was enacted under his administration. Don't think the tides won't turn again. A change in administration could mean another Fed AW ban. One of the reasons I bought my lowers is so they will be "pre-" any future fed ban. I know several people that have residency in two states. Suppose you're fortunate enough to own a 2nd home in AZ, lets say at the river. Get a AZ ID card only, and maintain your CA driver's license. Buy and play with what you want - AK's, AR's, etc... Just don't bring them back into CA. |
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There were certain exceptions in the original laws, one of which is that military personnel entering the state under orders could apply for registration and that registration could be granted for the length of time the person is on duty nin the state. IIRC, once they leave the service that registration is no longer available and they need to dispose of them iaw the law. |
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"Shooting man." Let's make it happen. |
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If they keep repeating the lie, it'll become the truth. |
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I dont think DOJ can overcome the fundimental flaw in SB 23, which is that it was created to limit weapons which were not legaly defined AW's.
Basically the law says "you cant have and unregistered AW". There's no codification of different kinds of AW's. (The category 1,2,3, thing is purely a construct the DOJ put together for talking about which law an AW was created under. They admit as much in the AW guide.) You can talk about the path a weapon took to become a registered AW but once its registered they're all in the same pool. There's nothing in the law that limites the features you may add or remove based on the path you took to registration. There's a section that provides limites for transfer, repair, transport, where to shoot etc, but it doesnt say anything about what modifications are lawful or unlawful. |
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That's how I see it too. The power of the DoJ to "regulate" has come to mean they can make up the law as they go. |
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Amazing when the AW ban in CA happened in 2000 (SB-23) everything was cut and dry... NOW it is such the clusterfuck.. this changes and that changes if this condition exists blah blah blah!!!
There was one guy that was trying to get SB23 thrown out by petitions and we ALMOST had all the signatures needed then BAM! he was told "Sorry charlie... those petitions are no good... have to re-do them" and we never made the deadline with all the new petitions. Sure as hell wish we had some major Pro gun attorneys ready to go to battle for this. |
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It will happen. Things are kicking into gear.
I won't be present too much here because I will be buried in depths of PC 12275-12290 and writting rebuttal details to memo. I'm hoping to do initial legwork that a real lawyer can attack the DOJ memo on multiple fronts. Right now the memo is FUD Relax, the fight's just begun. Bill Wiese San Jose |
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