What is the Maximum Effective range of the Socom & Scout?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What is the Maximum Effective range of the Socom & Scout?

Posted: 9/7/2005 12:43:39 PM EDT

I'm sorry to ask this but I need real world info on what the Effective maximum range is the both of these rifles.

I know the numbers say one thing, (barrel length, velocity, bullet selection, etc.) but I'd like to know what the real World results are from these two configurations.

I have a 22" M1A that I'm considering shortening to 18" (actually I'll probably just get a 18" barrel).

What is the Maximum Effective range I can engage a 12" target at with something like a 18" SEI configuration?

I'm trying to decide if the loss of velocity, and therefore range, are worth the added handling characteristics.

Posted: 9/7/2005 4:16:22 PM EDT

[#1]

Some questions first:

What is the limit of accuracy of your rifle and ammo combination? By this I mean what is the average shot group at 100 yds, shooting prone with a sling? The intrinsic accuracy level of the rifle/ammo/shooter combination is likely to play a larger role than shortening the barrel 4 inches.

Why 12" diameter?

As a basis of comparison, a Standard Grade M1A, using milsurp ammo should shoot into a 20" circle at 500 yds consistently, if the rifle, ammo, and shooter are all performing satisfactorally.

This can be simulated by shooting into an inch at 25 yds. Note that this is 4 MOA.

I suspect that the 18" barrel, although having a shorter maximum range then the OEM-length barrel, will still shoot out to 500 yds, albeit with reduced impact energy. This will probably not matter on soft-skinned targets, but it may matter on other types. Note also that your iron sights, calibrated with an OEM-length barrel, will not shoot to indicated range, especially as range increases. The difference will be small at first, but may be sizeable at long range.

In order to answer your question about the loss of Muzzle Velocity incurred by shortening the barrel, I would want to chronograph ammo from the same lot fired out of two weapons, one an OEM-length barrel, the other the 18" version. If someone has done this, and can provide reliable info, then the MV can be plugged into a ballistics program, and the results analyzed.

Posted: 9/7/2005 5:44:57 PM EDT

[#2]

Simple answer is - NATO ammo from a 22" barrel is supposed to have an official Maximum Effective Range of 635, or something in that neighborhood, meters. We know it will reach out further than that.

There is little MV lost going from a 22" to an 18" and even less lost going from a 18" to a 16".

You should be able to run out to 600ish meters with the 18" barrel, and not much less with a 16" barrel.

500 meters should be a piece of cake with any of these platforms...

Posted: 9/7/2005 6:00:50 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Simple answer is - NATO ammo from a 22" barrel is supposed to have an official Maximum Effective Range of 635, or something in that neighborhood, meters. We know it will reach out further than that.

Sorry for the stomp. Can't it actually reach about twice that distance effictively? I'm not a pro, I am seriously asking.

Posted: 9/7/2005 7:10:31 PM EDT

[#4]

Quite a bit beyond your ability to ID your target with open sights, and to the extent that a 3x-10x scope will allow you to have a chance at hitting something. It's a little funny sometimes to see theoretical discussions about people shooting things at 600 yds when most people have never attemped same nor will they ever. Out past 300 yds it takes great eyesight and a great deal of skill few of us possess.

Posted: 9/8/2005 4:49:22 AM EDT

[#5]

500 yards prone with iron sights is usually pretty easy with good ammo and an accurate rifle for me (we used to call it the "gravy line" in the Corp).

Add a good 3-10X power scope to the equation and the range obviously increases.

What I'd like to know is real world, with 175gr or 168gr SMK (What I usually shoot with... NEVER use surplus or crap ammo) when the round drops below supersonic and become unstable, how much farther out will a 18" barrelled M1A be able to hit a human sized target?

BTW, thanks for all the input so far.

Quoted:
Quite a bit beyond your ability to ID your target with open sights, and to the extent that a 3x-10x scope will allow you to have a chance at hitting something. It's a little funny sometimes to see theoretical discussions about people shooting things at 600 yds when most people have never attemped same nor will they ever. Out past 300 yds it takes great eyesight and a great deal of skill few of us possess.

Posted: 9/8/2005 2:01:35 PM EDT

[#6]

I would say 600 meters.

Posted: 9/8/2005 2:29:29 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

What I'd like to know is real world, with 175gr or 168gr SMK (What I usually shoot with... NEVER use surplus or crap ammo) when the round drops below supersonic and become unstable, how much farther out will a 18" barrelled M1A be able to hit a human sized target?

Air Force PJ's have reported targeting out to 900 yards with their 18" Crazy Horse rifles equipped with 10x Leupold scopes...
The ammo is M118LR or better.

Posted: 9/8/2005 2:31:19 PM EDT

[#8]

I think this is a GREAT question.....

Posted: 9/8/2005 4:17:09 PM EDT

[#9]

Well, if you want Army-ese, the original FM 23-8 for the M14 listed maximum effective range at 460 meters. Which, oddly enough works out to almost exactly 500 yards. I do believe someone was still thinking in yards back then and had metrics shoved down their throat.And those figures are for shooting man size targets, not 12". If you're only concerned with a twelve inch bull, even a 22" is gonna have an unimpressive looking "maximum effective range," which I've always seen defined as the range where hit probability is 50%. On a twelve inch target, I'm thinking somewhere between three and five hundred yards for iron sights and all but the damn good shots.JMO

I'm curious about the old AF PJ and 900 meters story, are they engaging targets or enemy at that range, and if enemy, what the hell business does a PJ have shooting at someone 900 meters away? Would think their job duties would have more pressing things to do than lob rounds at folks over a half mile away.

Posted: 9/8/2005 4:48:45 PM EDT

[#10]

From the Lapua site:

Rifles chambered in 7.62x51 mm tend to be reasonably light and maneuverable while providing a good mix of accuracy and penetration out to about 600 meters with conventional ammo and to about 900 meters with VLD (Very Low Drag) ammo.

From Sniper Central:

The .308 is acceptable for both military and Law Enforcement use, and is very capable of 800 meter hits on a human size target.

Lot's of opinions and estimates - also does vary on the type of weapon - 600 to 800 yards seems about right, absent any supertuning...

Posted: 9/8/2005 4:56:40 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I'm curious about the old AF PJ and 900 meters story, are they engaging targets or enemy at that range, and if enemy, what the hell business does a PJ have shooting at someone 900 meters away? Would think their job duties would have more pressing things to do than lob rounds at folks over a half mile away.

The information is new - maybe 2 months old.
The AF PJ's are engaging enemy targets.
Why? I don't know - maybe because they can.

Posted: 9/9/2005 1:00:43 PM EDT

[#12]

I try to think in terms of how far out can I actually use this weapon effectively. Though I am certainly a decent shot ( when I have been working out and practicing reularly ) and I shoot mostly off the hoof, not the bench, I am decent to 300 meters....however, this is on standing targets....NOT moving ones. Considering that if I were to employ my Scout at ranges probably NOT exceeding 150 meters, the Scout or Socom are both VERY viable guns if you assume they are in solid stocks are are built at least to print if not better. It takes very little to get a Scout to shoot almost as good as a rack grade M1A.....hell, it takes very little to get a rack grade M1A to shoot VERY well. With the proper stock ( i.e. well bedded in the back and floated up front ) and handpicked components like an AMU gas system you are already in the DAMN GOOD department, that's not even including a custom barrel. Done properly these mods do NOT decrease reliability either.

I believe that for NORMAL ( I use that term loosely ) engagements the Scout and Socom can hold their own VERY well. However, if you feel that you make need to use more accurate fire for express purposes then the full size would b the way to go.

Posted: 9/10/2005 6:03:04 AM EDT

[#13]

It does not take much digging to find the actual answers. Sierra and others go to the trouble of publishing ballistic charts. IIRC an 18 inch Scout lost almost 200 fps shooting ADI F4 ball compared to a full length 22 inch M1A.

Let's call it 2800 for an M1A, yielding a maximum point blank range on a 10 inch target(chart said +/- 5.0) of 340 yards when zero'd at 285 yards. At 500 yards velocity will be down to 1167, close to the speed of sound. At 600 yards, energy has dropped below the 1000fpe "rule of thumb" for knocking down deer sized game efficiently.

With the Scout rifle at a starting velocity of 2600 fps, MPBR is 315 yards with a 265 yard zero. The bullet at 400 yards is moving 1170 fps. And fpe drops below 1K at 500 yards.

READ MY LIPS: An 18 inch SCOUT performs 100 yards LESS than a full size rifle. The data do not have an opinion, facts are just facts.

Oops, I forgot the effects of WIND. A 10mph crosswind will deflect the projectile from the M1A 21.13 inches at 500 yards. The bullet from the Scout will drift 23.67 inches, about 12% greater.

Paladin

Posted: 9/10/2005 6:58:18 AM EDT

[#14]

Maximum effective range is based purely on the ability to put bullets on the target with standard sights and arsenal ammunition. 460 meters/500 yards here. Nothing to do with what wounds are caused at that range, the assumption is if you can hit it you can wound or kill it.

The Army considered 60fpe to be all that's required to administer a disabling wound.

Energy, of course, is a useless criteria for discussing wounding potential. A broadpoint hunting arrow, with the energy of a .22 Short, has been documented to take all known North American big game. Two legs or four.

Of course most targets you can shoot at will be closer than 100 meters anyway.

-- Chuck

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What is the Maximum Effective range of the Socom & Scout?

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