Say you were going to the gunshow tomorrow and were going to buy an M1A and there was
a Polytech and a Norinco and you had to choose one.  Which one would you buy.
Which is the better rifle?

A Polytech Industries M14/S imported by CJA/IDE (Southfield, MI) will usually have the best finish and they were imported with walnut stocks.  Norinco and Polytech Industries M14 rifles are reliable but the appearance can vary from rough to fairly nice IMHO.

i would get either one

get the one with the best price for the condition

most say that the polytech usually has better workmanship

i got a norinco from a pawn shop for $550, and i am happy
wish i can find more

Is there any difference in the receivers?
Heat treated or annealed(sp?)?
I thougt I read a long while back that one is and one isn't.  It has been a loooong time back and can't remember for sure.

If you find one of both for the same price and are like new get the poly they have a better finish mine is a good sound shooter 3 inch group out to 200 yard's with surplus ammo

The experts around here claim that both of the Chinese receivers are correctly heat treated.  It's the bolts that have a hardness problem.

My Polytech was the best $600 I ever spent on a rifle that had about 50-100rds down the tube 2 and a half years ago.

After about 1200 rds later, it still runs like a champ.

WIZZO

I own two polytechs,,,, I have never owned a norinco,,, but both my poly's have been excellent, and never had headspace or bolt problems...

my one friend just bought a poly tech for $695 from a gun store, came with a scope mount, hardcase and two mags.  bolt is USGI.  Decent deal?

Get 'em both!!!   LOL

I have never had a problem with my Norinco and I shoot a lot w/ it.

What prices are you seeing? I bought mine for $375 about 15 years ago.

Quoted: my one friend just bought a poly tech for $695 from a gun store, came with a scope mount, hardcase and two mags.  bolt is USGI.  Decent deal?

If the bolt was properly fitted, it's a smokin' good deal.

Quoted: Quoted: my one friend just bought a poly tech for $695 from a gun store, came with a scope mount, hardcase and two mags.  bolt is USGI.  Decent deal? If the bolt was properly fitted, it's a smokin' good deal.

That's the rub!

I'd pass on both....I'm a snob.


Go to Fulton Armory and read up on the "Chinese M14's" Good reading!

Both are good receivers, Finish wise they can vary , some Poly's can have crudely machined recvr's. I have seen 2-3 poly's with cracked clip guide Boss's so that is something to look at if you are buying .

I built on a Norinco rifle that I got for $ 300 that really would take a field reject gage ! The Rifle looked like it had been shot alot and the set back on the bolt lugs was very noticeable. The rest of the parts were in excellent shape.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: my one friend just bought a poly tech for $695 from a gun store, came with a scope mount, hardcase and two mags.  bolt is USGI.  Decent deal? If the bolt was properly fitted, it's a smokin' good deal. That's the rub! I'd pass on both....I'm a snob. Go to Fulton Armory and read up on the "Chinese M14's" Good reading!

You mean Fulton Armory that sells high priced gunsmithing services and their own brand of M14 knock off? That Fulton Armory? Yeah, I trust their opinions.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: my one friend just bought a poly tech for $695 from a gun store, came with a scope mount, hardcase and two mags.  bolt is USGI.  Decent deal? If the bolt was properly fitted, it's a smokin' good deal. That's the rub! I'd pass on both....I'm a snob. Go to Fulton Armory and read up on the "Chinese M14's" Good reading! You mean Fulton Armory that sells high priced gunsmithing services and their own brand of M14 knock off? That Fulton Armory? Yeah, I trust their opinions.

You can be cynical and jerky all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that a Norinco or a Polytech purchase is risky. I'm not saying any more less. I'm not an expert, but I've read several different sources that say watch out.  All I suggested was go to the Fulton site and read. You can also go to Different's and read all about the Chinese rifles. Here's an excerpt from Different's on Chinese Receivers:

Chinese Receivers
There is no substantial difference between Norinco and Polytech Industries receivers although Smith Enterprise found the surface hardness to vary from 41 to 60 HRC without regard to marking.  Smith Enterprise, Inc. has done extensive inspection, and non-destructive testing, and destructive examination of Chinese receivers.  These inspections and tests have verified that Chinese M14 receivers are made of AISI 8620 equivalent alloy steel.  Chinese receivers are drop forged into forms of larger bulk and less definition than the USGI receivers were.  Then, like the American manufacturers, machine tools cut away at the metal from the raw forging to create the final desired shape before carburizing and heat treatment.
Chinese receivers are not made of high carbon alloy steel such as AISI 52100 or other such high chromium alloy steel.  Equivalent AISI 5100 series steel is high carbon (1.0 to 1.1 %) alloy steel that is much too hard for a rifle receiver.  Because it is a high carbon steel that is thorough hardened it lacks toughness and ductility needed for the M14 type rifle.  AISI 52100 alloy steel is the most commonly used steel for bearings.  The machinability rating is 40 % when in the spheroidized annealed and cold drawn condition as compared to 100 % for AISI 1112 steel.  It is difficult to machine and must be quenched below room temperature to form martensite.  Smith Enterprise did some surface hardness testing of Chinese receivers in 1999.  The results varied from 41 to 60 HRC.  Soft receivers can be brought up to USGI specification by nitrocarburizing treatment.
Chinese receivers have a threaded hole for a setscrew in the barrel ring.  The Chinese rifles are built with a setscrew threaded far enough through the barrel ring to contact the barrel.  The barrel setscrew is unnecessary for securing the barrel in the receiver.  However, the Chinese manufactured their receivers this way because it is their psychological mindset. 9

As to your implication that they're going to steer you just to make a buck, I own 2 Fulton AR's and have swapped a boatload of e-mails with Walt Kruleck and to a lesser extent Clint McKee. Walt has ALWAYS taken the time to answer questions and has been very open and sharing with his knowledge. He's steered me away from some items they sell. I don't have the money for a Peerless, but I personally would rather buy an SAI than a Chinese rifle. Sure they sell expensive rifles, but you sure as hell get what you pay for.

Quoted: I don't have the money for a Peerless, but I personally would rather buy an SAI than a Chinese rifle. Sure they sell expensive rifles, but you sure as hell get what you pay for.

Yep, they provide excellent weapons. As long as you don't mind bolt's that can fieldstrip themselves upon firing and quality control so non-existant that they allowed a run of rifles to be made with the damn company name misspelled. What about the crooked receivers that were sold? [sarcam] Now THAT'S quality and workmanship right there! [/sarcasm]

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: my one friend just bought a poly tech for $695 from a gun store, came with a scope mount, hardcase and two mags.  bolt is USGI.  Decent deal? If the bolt was properly fitted, it's a smokin' good deal. That's the rub! I'd pass on both....I'm a snob. Go to Fulton Armory and read up on the "Chinese M14's" Good reading! You mean Fulton Armory that sells high priced gunsmithing services and their own brand of M14 knock off? That Fulton Armory? Yeah, I trust their opinions. You can be cynical and jerky all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that a Norinco or a Polytech purchase is risky. I'm not saying any more less. I'm not an expert, but I've read several different sources that say watch out.  All I suggested was go to the Fulton site and read. You can also go to Different's and read all about the Chinese rifles. Here's an excerpt from Different's on Chinese Receivers: Chinese Receivers There is no substantial difference between Norinco and Polytech Industries receivers although Smith Enterprise found the surface hardness to vary from 41 to 60 HRC without regard to marking.  Smith Enterprise, Inc. has done extensive inspection, and non-destructive testing, and destructive examination of Chinese receivers.  These inspections and tests have verified that Chinese M14 receivers are made of AISI 8620 equivalent alloy steel.  Chinese receivers are drop forged into forms of larger bulk and less definition than the USGI receivers were.  Then, like the American manufacturers, machine tools cut away at the metal from the raw forging to create the final desired shape before carburizing and heat treatment. Chinese receivers are not made of high carbon alloy steel such as AISI 52100 or other such high chromium alloy steel.  Equivalent AISI 5100 series steel is high carbon (1.0 to 1.1 %) alloy steel that is much too hard for a rifle receiver.  Because it is a high carbon steel that is thorough hardened it lacks toughness and ductility needed for the M14 type rifle.  AISI 52100 alloy steel is the most commonly used steel for bearings.  The machinability rating is 40 % when in the spheroidized annealed and cold drawn condition as compared to 100 % for AISI 1112 steel.  It is difficult to machine and must be quenched below room temperature to form martensite.  Smith Enterprise did some surface hardness testing of Chinese receivers in 1999.  The results varied from 41 to 60 HRC.  Soft receivers can be brought up to USGI specification by nitrocarburizing treatment. Chinese receivers have a threaded hole for a setscrew in the barrel ring.  The Chinese rifles are built with a setscrew threaded far enough through the barrel ring to contact the barrel.  The barrel setscrew is unnecessary for securing the barrel in the receiver.  However, the Chinese manufactured their receivers this way because it is their psychological mindset. 9 As to your implication that they're going to steer you just to make a buck, I own 2 Fulton AR's and have swapped a boatload of e-mails with Walt Kruleck and to a lesser extent Clint McKee. Walt has ALWAYS taken the time to answer questions and has been very open and sharing with his knowledge. He's steered me away from some items they sell. I don't have the money for a Peerless, but I personally would rather buy an SAI than a Chinese rifle. Sure they sell expensive rifles, but you sure as hell get what you pay for.

Drink the Kool-Aid.

i'll take my polytech m1a over  springfield armory's m1a any day.  

paid $450  for it in 96

sent it to smith enterprise to get the receiver renuked, now it has a trw bolt and a douglas nm barrel installed.  best part i have less money in it than what a nm sprinfield would cost.  

Either would do well.  I have a Polytech that was redone in all USGI parts.  It is far better than my Springfield armory.

Max

I have a Polytech and it is a fine shooter, pictured on the left side

Quoted:  Soft receivers can be brought up to USGI specification by nitrocarburizing treatment.

This is what I like.  There is always a service they offer that can make these "sub-standard" rifles just as good as USGI.  I have no idea if this is true or not, and don't care; it is just the cynic in me that says, BS!

The 'smith who did the GI bolt conversion on my polytech told me when I had e-mailed him about these receivers hardness or lack of..He e-mailed me back, and told me that mine may not be as hard as GI spec, but the chances of it being too soft are about a million to one. and in his opinion, Some people are selling services that are not really needed (heat treating). Someone show me a Poly or a Norinco that let loose because the receiver was too soft... True, the receivers MAY not be to GI spec, but that dosen't mean they aren't safe to use, I suspect that this receiver softness issue has more to do with some well known, high priced shops convincing people to fork over a bunch of $$$ for a service that was never really needed in the first place. I've got over 1000 rnds through my Poly after the GI bolt conversion, no problems, headspace has'nt increased, shoots well. Bolt conversion was also done WITHOUT removing the barrel, something else the well known, high priced shops say can't be done. I'm still using the orginial barrel, and will until it's  gone. Before I put all my faith in what some of these well known, high priced shops say, I'd ask around first. There alot of other people that work on M14 clones that are just as knowledgeable as the well known, high priced shops and aren't out to sell you something you don't really need.  

Quoted: Drink the Kool-Aid.

We have different opinons, that's all. Sorry you can't handle it sweetheart.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't have the money for a Peerless, but I personally would rather buy an SAI than a Chinese rifle. Sure they sell expensive rifles, but you sure as hell get what you pay for. Yep, they provide excellent weapons. As long as you don't mind bolt's that can fieldstrip themselves upon firing and quality control so non-existant that they allowed a run of rifles to be made with the damn company name misspelled. What about the crooked receivers that were sold? [sarcam] Now THAT'S quality and workmanship right there! [/sarcasm]

Yes, lord knows the People's Liberation Army is a hive of ultra talented master mechanical craftmen.

Go to different's page and read WHY the Chinese bothered copying the M14 in the first place. Interesting reading.

As to your non-existant QC claim, did it occur to a rifle YOU purchased? If not, I'd appreciate you backing up your claim with a link or two to the threads. Not that I won't take your unbiased word for it. Fact is, if what you claim is verifiable, I'd like to know so as not to patronize them in the future.

Alot has been written on the subject by professionals who do nothing other than test and retest. I have no stake in Fulton Armory and don't really care if you chose them or not. I've had nothing but great customer service and never had either of my AR's FTF or have any issues what so ever. Again, you get what you pay for.

I merely think it's a crap shoot going with a Chinese rifle and you run the risk of needing allot of reworking. I've fired several thousand upon thounds of rounds of milsurp through my SAI M1A and have never had a FTF or any issues. I'm happy with my rifle, and that, again, is my choice and opinon.

I'm sure their are Chinese M14's that have done wonderful service at rifle ranges all over the nation. Why the United States Military doesn't snatch up these wonderful rifles to use in combat...I'm sure I'll NEVER know.

Quoted: Quoted:  Soft receivers can be brought up to USGI specification by nitrocarburizing treatment. This is what I like.  There is always a service they offer that can make these "sub-standard" rifles just as good as USGI.  I have no idea if this is true or not, and don't care; it is just the cynic in me that says, BS!

Anyone out there take a Chinese M14 staight from the FFL or gunshow to the range and fire several thousand rounds? No gunsmith, no "go-no go", no complete tear down....just a field strip and off to the range. Anyone? I'd do so with a SAI. A Chinese rifle I couldn't...not after what I've read.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:  Soft receivers can be brought up to USGI specification by nitrocarburizing treatment. This is what I like.  There is always a service they offer that can make these "sub-standard" rifles just as good as USGI.  I have no idea if this is true or not, and don't care; it is just the cynic in me that says, BS! Anyone out there take a Chinese M14 staight from the FFL or gunshow to the range and fire several thousand rounds? No gunsmith, no "go-no go", no complete tear down....just a field strip and off to the range. Anyone? I'd do so with a SAI. A Chinese rifle I couldn't...not after what I've read.

You're going to fire a couple thousand rounds out of a new, out of the box SA Inc M1A? You might get a couple hundred before the bolt flies apart. At least, that's what I've read.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:  Soft receivers can be brought up to USGI specification by nitrocarburizing treatment. This is what I like.  There is always a service they offer that can make these "sub-standard" rifles just as good as USGI.  I have no idea if this is true or not, and don't care; it is just the cynic in me that says, BS! Anyone out there take a Chinese M14 staight from the FFL or gunshow to the range and fire several thousand rounds? No gunsmith, no "go-no go", no complete tear down....just a field strip and off to the range. Anyone? I'd do so with a SAI. A Chinese rifle I couldn't...not after what I've read. You're going to fire a couple thousand rounds out of a new, out of the box SA Inc M1A? You might get a couple hundred before the bolt flies apart. At least, that's what I've read.

Yes sir, and I have. I've done it with my current M1A standard. Picked it up on a Friday, next day went to the range. Field stripped it, checked it over and after zeroing in, I went through 6 battle packs of South African M80 ball over a Saturday. I've since added to that count by several cases. I've also used the Portugese. Never had an issue, no failures, just plain old fashioned American made fun in sun.  Though I'm pretty sure I've read about others having the same success too.


EDITED TO ADD: It's really funny that desipte all of the evidence to the sporadic QC of the Chicom rifles, you choose to believe that the SAI are crap even though plenty of shooters have never had an issue with them. On the other hand, the fact that all sorts of companies and indivudual gunsmiths all offer an "overhaul" of Chicom m14s doesn't phase you.

This isn't an argumenative question, just a search for some anwsers: Has anyone personally purchased and owned a Chicom m14 which required NO upgrade, had no parts upgrade or required any additional work what so ever and has several thousand rounds through it?

My Polytech M14S has no problems at all.  Let me add that it is a 1989  and still all Chicom (**Except it sports a USGI Birch stock***), it has never been to a gunsmith.

Quoted: My Polytech M14S has no problems at all.  Let me add that it is a 1989  and still all Chicom (**Except it sports a USGI Birch stock***), it has never been to a gunsmith.

my two poly's as well!!

Norinco/Polytech Owners Quiz:

1. I bought a______
    a. Norinco
    b. Polytech
    c. Some other ChiComm knock-off that supports a division of the Peoples Liberation Army

2. I replaced the ______
    a. bolt
    b. Op Rod
    c. receiver
    d. trigger group
    e. all of the above
     f. everything

3. If you did not replace the receiver, I had it ________
    a. nitrocarburized
    b. melinite heat treated
    c. frozen in carbonite alongside Han Solo
    d. It was so soft I carved my initials in it

4. I replaced the barrel with ______
    a. Douglas NM
    b. USGI something or other
    c. whatever my gunsmith suggested

5. My Norinco/Polytech has what % original ChiComm parts
    a. 75 to 99%
    b. 50 to 74%
    c. 1 to 49%
    d. ChiComm parts? What ChiComm parts

Sorry for the tongue in cheek guys, but I couldn't resist.

RJ
     

Quoted: It's really funny that desipte all of the evidence to the sporadic QC of the Chicom rifles, you choose to believe that the SAI are crap even though plenty of shooters have never had an issue with them. On the other hand, the fact that all sorts of companies and indivudual gunsmiths all offer an "overhaul" of Chicom m14s doesn't phase you.

The fact is, the "experts" do not agree about issues with Chinese M14's. Ron Smith of Smith Enterprises a noted M14 "expert" offers a different take on them than does the Pros at Fulton. As for your opinion that SA Inc produces such fine weapons, since you value the opinions of the experts be aware that Ron Smith offers heat treating services for SA Inc. recievers claiming that they can be "soft" and recommends that the cast SA Inc. Op-rods be replaced with USGI or, now hold on to your M1A, Chinese Op-Rods (Gasp!). I would be willing to bet that if SA Inc. didn't provide a lifetime warranty (and thank God they do) Mr. Smith and many others would offer "rebuild" services for the M1A as well. Guess which receivers Ron Smith claims to be the best? You guessed it, Smith Enterprises receivers. The very ones that he sold.

Don't belieive it? It's all on his web site. Personally, I take the opinions of experts with expensive services to sell with a grain of salt.

Quoted: Quoted: It's really funny that desipte all of the evidence to the sporadic QC of the Chicom rifles, you choose to believe that the SAI are crap even though plenty of shooters have never had an issue with them. On the other hand, the fact that all sorts of companies and indivudual gunsmiths all offer an "overhaul" of Chicom m14s doesn't phase you. The fact is, the "experts" do not agree about issues with Chinese M14's. Ron Smith of Smith Enterprises a noted M14 "expert" offers a different take on them than does the Pros at Fulton. As for your opinion that SA Inc produces such fine weapons, since you value the opinions of the experts be aware that Ron Smith offers heat treating services for SA Inc. recievers claiming that they can be "soft" and recommends that the cast SA Inc. Op-rods be replaced with USGI or, now hold on to your M1A, Chinese Op-Rods (Gasp!). I would be willing to bet that if SA Inc. didn't provide a lifetime warranty (and thank God they do) Mr. Smith and many others would offer "rebuild" services for the M1A as well. Guess which receivers Ron Smith claims to be the best? You guessed it, Smith Enterprises receivers. The very ones that he sold. Don't belieive it? It's all on his web site. Personally, I take the opinions of experts with expensive services to sell with a grain of salt.

Oh, I see.....I mention several experts and companies and they're all evil money grubbing and selling unneeded services. You wheel out an expert and that's supposed to end that. Despite the fact that he and many others have more to say about the rebuilding of Chicoms than SAI.  Gee...I'm convinced!

Look....I simply said that I wouldn't trust the Chicom rifles. Sure USGI parts are always the best choice, and I'm certainly not saying that SAI is flawless. What I'm saying is that the Chicom rifles can't be trusted, they need a smith who knows what to look for really look them over. Fact is the Chinese only bothered to copy the M14 for policy objectives...to supply insurgents, which they tried several times without success. Go read about it at Different's page.  It was later that they looked at them for export and profit. In any event, the former doesn't wipe out that latter. Call me old fashioned.

What you failed to mention is that Smith Ent. "heat treats" the Chicoms and will replace the other parts with USGI. Gee, that's a ringing endorsement. Fact is more offer heat treatment and other services for Shicom rifles than for SAI rifles.

My point was that the Chicom rifles are a crap shoot. That's all. You simply can't trust one until its been inspected and overhauled. Sure it's a great value...but it may end up costing much much more. It may also be an awesome rifle out of the box, as several shooters have posted in this thread. That's great and I'm VERY happy for them. I however refuse to take that gamble. So lets agree to disagree.
You can try and convince me of superior Cinese Communist craftsmenship all day long and it isn't going to happen. Sorry.

And the big question is:

Would you shoot Wolf ammo in your Chinese -14?

Quoted: What you failed to mention is that Smith Ent. "heat treats" the Chicoms and will replace the other parts with USGI. Gee, that's a ringing endorsement. Fact is more offer heat treatment and other services for Shicom rifles than for SAI rifles.

What you fail to mention is the you didn't read anything on Smiths site.

M14 RIFLE PARTS COMPARISON
Smith Enterprise has done much in Research and Development and has performed many services.  We recommend that no projectile weighing more than a 168 grains be used for any reason.  Heavier projectiles increase chamber pressures which can strain the receiver and in time may become dangerous.  Powders vary in pressure curves, this depends on type and lot number of powder, also effecting pressure is the brass (military and civilian brass differ).  We will not provide reload information.  Reloads should be approached with caution.

RECEIVERS GAS CYLINDER REAR SIGHT ASSEMBLY
BARRELS OPERATION ROD STOCK
BOLTS OPERATION ROD SPRING TRIGGER GROUP

 

RECEIVERS
SMITH ENTERPRISE Okay so we are biased.  However, as we make the receivers, we perform our special modifications and build rifles out of them, to ensure they fit and function properly. The goal is to meet our standard.  We have made them in Cast and Billet "Forged".  When we restart production, we will manufacture Billet "Forged" Receivers.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY A good cast receiver, we don't have to do much reworking to ensure proper operation and unless requested, we do not rework the receiver to our standard.  We have come across some receivers that were a little soft.  Our heat treatment is very beneficial.  
ARMSCORP A good hard cast receiver.  
ENTREPRISE ARMS A good hard Billet "Forged" receiver. Assembles well & is heat treated to proper standards. We have built a number of these for people and have had no problems. We expect the new ones to be even better! For more info on price, etc. call Smith Enterprise.
CHINESE Good Billet receivers (there is no real difference between Poly Technologies and Norinco). The receivers do vary in hardness, in 1999, we experienced receivers ranging from 41Rc to 60Rc, Mil. Spec. is 49Rc to 56Rc.   After we rework the receiver to accept USGI bolts, we generally have very little work to obtain good lug contact.  We do perform our special modifications and recommend heat treatment when necessary.  
FEDERAL ORDNANCE We have performed some miracles with these receivers.  These receivers were sold three ways 1) as receivers only, 2) rifles built with USGI parts and 3) rifles built with Chinese parts. Fitting a USGI bolt takes about 2 to 4 hours extra labor.  The hardness has always been hard, we have seen them where they are so hard they are brittle and have shattered.   We can not fix all the dimensional problems.
WELDS  We know of individuals that have performed this task well and unless it has their marking we can't really give our opinion about any others.   We have built well performing rifles for our Clients who have purchased them.
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BARRELS
USGI or U.S. Several USGI and commercial makers are available.  USGI barrels have Chrome lined barrels and can provide very good accuracy.  Most commercial barrels are not chrome lined and are going to be of match grade.  Barrel accuracy can vary and it does not matter who the maker is.  If the barrel is bad it is just bad.
CHINESE Equivalent to USGI barrels. There are two metric threads on the barrel, one for the "Gas Cylinder Lock" and one for the "Castle Nut".  The Castle Nut threads are very close to U.S. threads and can be converted, but the Gas Cylinder Lock threads are too fine.  We have Clients getting 1" groups with these barrels.  They are generally very good barrels, but like U.S. barrels, you can get a lemon.
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BOLTS
USGI:  TRW, Winchester, Springfield, Harrington and Richardson are forged and hard.  Not all are the same just because they have the same manufacturer.  There may be as much as .004" difference from one to another.   Check headspace if changing bolts don't rely upon the same brand.
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY  Commercial, have not seen many in the last few years but at one time Springfield put out Cast bolts.  They need to be replaced.
CHINESE This is the real problem with these rifles.   If you or anyone you know has a Chinese rifle, get the bolt replaced.  Don't let just anyone do it.  We have had many rifles come in that have had a "Gunsmith" or "Armorer" attempt to install a USGI Bolt.  They have reworked the Bolt instead of the receiver, we have seen many a good bolt hit the garbage.  Almost every Chinese rifle we have had come in to us, whether it has never fired or has had a few hundred rounds through it, has had an excessive headspace.  Send us the rifle for our "Bolt Conversion".
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GAS CYLINDER
USGI Made of 416 Stainless Steel, Piston is 416 Stainless Steel, Cylinder Plug is also 416 Stainless Steel.  Designed to fight corrosion.  In our opinion, don't waste you money on "Titanium" coated pistons.  Cylinder, Piston and Cylinder plug can be used on Chinese Barrels.
CHINESE Made of Chromoly Steel, Piston is hard chromed.  Piston O.D. and Cylinder I.D. are larger than USGI spec., have had USGI Piston operate in Chinese Cylinders.  Cylinder Plug is Chromoly and has metric threads as does the Cylinder Locking Ring. Cylinder, Piston and Cylinder plug can be used with US made barrels and are very reliable and sturdy.
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OPERATION ROD
USGI Forged and hard. Manufactured by Winchester, TRW, Springfield, Harrington and Richardson and Sako. Any are great if fit correctly to the receiver
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Commercial grade are Cast and soft, we have experienced many that are gauled and bent. Replace them with USGI or Chinese.
CHINESE Have tested them and find them equivalent to USGI, they are forged and the last two tested showed a Rockwell between 38-42Rc.
WELDS They are USGI, but welded.  We have encountered many that were very well done and usable.  Look for bends and mismatched widths.   Can be great and are better than cast.
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OPERATION ROD SPRINGS
USGI These are the standard.  Ensure your operation spring is not worn, it is designed to cut down the inertia of the operation rod and bolt.  Most receiver failures have occurred due to the bolt hitting the rear of the receiver to hard.  Often caused by a  weak and worn operation rod spring.
CHINESE This Operation Rod Spring should be replaced with a USGI.  The Hammer Spring, Ejector Spring and Extractor Spring are of good quality.
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REAR SIGHT ASSEMBLY
USGI Generally operate well on all receivers. Standard have 1" MOA windage and elevation correction and National Match have 1/2" MOA. NM sight assembles need proper attention during assembly.  Parts are not interchangeable with Chinese.
CHINESE We have experienced very few that work well.  Most of the time the Windage threads of the base were not properly tapped.  This causes the sight base to be pushed into the top of the receiver. There is also the difficulty with getting the proper tension for the Elevation Knob so that the sight does not jump during shooting.  We have been successful at times in getting these sights to operate at a serviceable level but still are not overly satisfied.  Parts are not interchangeable with USGI.
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STOCK
USGI OR U.S. MFG Any stock in serviceable condition is useable.  However, just because the wood looks nice does not mean the stock is serviceable.  If the rear left corner of the receiver sticks over the stock it is not serviceable.  If there is a crack, the stock is not serviceable.  Walnut, Laminated and Birch stocks are available as are heavy and light Synthetic stocks.  
CHINESE These stocks are dimensionally different and of a lighter wood, but they are serviceable, but we don't like them.  If you want to put a USGI stock on a Chinese Rifle, the stock must be worked to fit properly.
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TRIGGER GROUP
USGI Desirable. Forged steel - Hammers, Triggers and Trigger Housing.  We have had very few that were not serviceable.  
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Commercial. We have had a few M1A's come in with Cast Hammers and Trigger Housings. While serviceable we do not know how long the hammer will last so we recommend it be replaced.  The housing is serviceable, if it is not distorted, but not very desirable.
CHINESE Equivalent to USGI. The last hammers we had tested measured between 48Rc and 51Rc.  The hardness is not as deep as a USGI Hammer but we have many Clients that are still using them with no problem.
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You can try and convince me of superior Cinese Communist craftsmenship all day long and it isn't going to happen. Sorry.

The only thing I'm trying to convince anyone of is that you have zero personal knowledge or experience with Chinese M14's. You knock the Chinese M14's because you are a fan of SA Inc. I assume you own an SA Inc.. Don't feel bad that you over paid. Lots of people are willing to pay for a name.

Quoted: The only thing I'm trying to convince anyone of is that you have zero personal knowledge or experience with Chinese M14's. You knock the Chinese M14's because you are a fan of SA Inc.

"Well, I have seen a little (about Chicom rifles)......on TV"

I assume you own an SA Inc..

Ummm, I said I did. But I guess you'd have to actually READ my posts before responding. Carry on Private Pyle.

Don't feel bad that you over paid. Lots of people are willing to pay for a name.

Ouch...THAT stung. I'll have to go and lay down after that smack. Keep'em coming tiger.....

Because most people NEVER have to pay a dime to add USGI parts to their Chicom Super M14.

Anyhow........

The thread didn't start with "Only those who are self-proclaimed masters of Chinese M14's may enter and speak in this hallowed thread."

As to "personal knowledge"...hey, I've never taken a bite out of giant steaming pile of horseshit, and guess what, I don't have to have "personal knowledge" of it to know that it ain't going to taste like Peking Duck. The difference here is that I prefer my dinners to be Chinese, not my firearms. That's it.....difference of opinion. As the adage goes, "Opinions are like...yatta, yatta, yatta" you know the rest. The trick is not to act like one while expressing your opinion.

The funny thing is that I even stated (and asked honestly from other members to add their experiences) that there are those that have pulled Chicom M14s out of the box and had no issues. That's great...I'm sincerely happy for them. I'm not a "fan" of SAI as you say, I've never had an issue with my SAI nor have I had their service people treat me with anything less than the best service. FYI, I've dealt with them on 2 seperate events and neither involved repairs due to bad manufacturing. If anything, the fact you're dumping on Fulton and SAI seems to lead me to believe you're a fan of all rifles Chinese Communist. BTW, have you or do you own any Fulton rifles? Frankly, that doesn't disqualify you from comment in my book, HOWEVER, in YOUR book of "personal experience" that's a CENTRAL FACTOR. You mentioned something about Fulton M14's flying apart...and I asked for some proof. As of yet, you've shard no such proof. Show me an article....a snippet...a sentence. Now, on the other hand, there are VOLUMES on the Chicom M14 and that the buyer should TAKE CARE and HAVE THE WEAPON CHECKED BY A SMITH WHO KNOWS WHAT TO LOOK FOR.  'nuff said.

My point is that that due to many factors, civil law and consumer safety to mention but 2, SAI has to QC everything or suffer the wraith of lawsuits and customer feedback. Unlike the Chinese....who didn't make the M14's for profit at first....later they did and then a few years back even visited the US and worked to clear up engineering issues with American manufacturers. HOWEVER, and we're back to my original point that seems to bother you so, that it's a crap shoot buying a Chicom. Period. Aside from you and a few others who have posted, I don't know anyone who would take a Chicom to the range without a smith who knows his M14s taking a look first. Whereas more would take a SAI from the gunshop to the range and not fear the potential outcome.

I never claimed to be an expert, though that doesn't exclude me from posting. Sorry old chap, we both just have to somehow get over this severe hurdle and agree to disagree. Seriously, IF I were this Springfield UBER FAN that you paint me to be, I'd post something sarcastic like this:


Communist China, home of the reverse engineered M14 knock-offs

But I'm not going to do that. Now excuse me, I need to go and frost the giant M14 shaped cake I baked for this evening's SAI Fan Club meeting.

I'd get either one.  I'm happy with my Norinco.  As for the SA comparison to them, well there isn't.  SA's quality has gone way down.  You've got two options buy a chineses knock off and buy USGI parts or buy a SA for twice as much and still go out and buy USGI parts.

Quoted: I'd get either one.  I'm happy with my Norinco.  As for the SA comparison to them, well there isn't.  SA's quality has gone way down.  You've got two options buy a chineses knock off and buy USGI parts or buy a SA for twice as much and still go out and buy USGI parts.

Did you read any the previous posts? So do you have the actual percentage of rifles that have been returned to SA for manufacturer defects? Because, that would be the only way you could make that statement. Unless you've read the same SA threads here and there that comment about problems. My guess is (again I don't have the numbers from SA) that like any product out on the market, you typically only hear about the problems. Most SA owners (myself included) don't post about how their product is working the way it's supposed to. I'm not a SA rep, I just own one (a 2002 Scout with no USGI parts and hold on........no problems!!). I'm sure the ChiComm rifles are fine and I have no problem with saying that...it's just that the SA bashing without REAL evidence makes no sense.

RJ

Quoted: You've got two options buy a chineses knock off and buy USGI parts or buy a SA for twice as much and still go out and buy USGI parts.

Lets classify 'em equally.....
SA (Inc) is a "knock off" too

Quoted: Quoted: You've got two options buy a chineses knock off and buy USGI parts or buy a SA for twice as much and still go out and buy USGI parts. Lets classify 'em equally..... SA (Inc) is a "knock off" too

Very true, but I'm sure we can agree that SAI is held to much higher standards than a company that's run by the People's Liberation Army.

Furthermore, the statement made by voneisen is VERY true regarding customers & products. An old adage in sales is that every satisfied customer tells 3-4 friends and family members about how satisfied they are with the product in question. On the other end, a DISatisfied customer shares his/her DISatisfaction with 10-12 friends or family members. So the "Dozens of posts" of how terrible SAI is doesn't really compare to the thousands (or more) who are perfectly happy.

Quoted: Furthermore, the statement made by voneisen is VERY true regarding customers & products. An old adage in sales is that every satisfied customer tells 3-4 friends and family members about how satisfied they are with the product in question. On the other end, a DISatisfied customer shares his/her DISatisfaction with 10-12 friends or family members. So the "Dozens of posts" of how terrible SAI is doesn't really compare to the thousands (or more) who are perfectly happy.

But you wouldn't apply the same logic regarding "commie guns".

Quoted: Quoted: Furthermore, the statement made by voneisen is VERY true regarding customers & products. An old adage in sales is that every satisfied customer tells 3-4 friends and family members about how satisfied they are with the product in question. On the other end, a DISatisfied customer shares his/her DISatisfaction with 10-12 friends or family members. So the "Dozens of posts" of how terrible SAI is doesn't really compare to the thousands (or more) who are perfectly happy. But you wouldn't apply the same logic regarding "commie guns".

LOL. You're an oddly cynical little man...aren't you? You probably didn't read in one of my earlier posts where I asked fellows to post what sort of experiences they've had with their "commie guns" out of curiosity because I'd like to get some first hand feedback. So since I asked for the information, you'd think I was, um, I dunno, interested in what sort of success Chicom M14 owners have had and was willing to listen. In other words, YES, I would. But a few members posting success doesn't supercede ALL of the other evidence. I simply made an off-handed comment about going to Fulton's web page and simply reading about the Chicom rifles, just to learn what a buyer may have to deal with. You respounded making WILD accusations about SAI and Fulton rather than offer other web pages that sing the praises of the Chicoms. I've calmly posted what a mountain of evidence also backs up, that the Chicoms are a gamble that may require addtional work before they're safe. Now since most of the company's that deal in M14s have a slew of services aimed DIRECTLY at Chicom rifles, I'm guessing either they're ALL dishonest hucksters looking to make a buck...or maybe there is something to all the fuss.

As it turns out.....I spoke with Claude at ARMSCORP today about a reciever. As an after thought I asked him about his thoughts on the Norinco and Polytech rifles. He chuckled and said pretty much most of what BOTH OF US HAVE SAID. It's Budget rifle but it may require work, more so than a out of the box SAI. To be clear...Chicom rifles tend to require extra work where a SAI is good out of the box. He also said that with SAI you have the company to fall back on if need be where the Chicom not so much. He went on to say he's dealt with plenty of guys who have Chicoms and have had few issues. I'm paraphrasing him here.

The way he summed it up was as follows: If I can choose between a Chicom and a SAI, I'll take an SAI. If I can choose between a SAI and a USGI rifle, USGI.

It sounds like several members out here have had good experiences with Chicom rifles. Personally, for my very own self, they're not my cup of tea. And anyone who is new to the M14 should know both sides before they buy a rifle that may require more money than they have to get up to useful spec.

So...can we kiss and make up now???


 

Quoted: I simply made an off-handed comment about going to Fulton's web page and simply reading about the Chicom rifles, just to learn what a buyer may have to deal with.

Without any personal experience with Chnese rifles, you posted an opinion based on anecdotal information that you read on the net then quoted only the info from Fulton that supported your opinion. I've read all the info on Fulton's sight, you left a little out. like the fact that after analyzing Chinese M14 receivers they rated the geometry, that is the dimensions and overall straightness as good as USGI TRW receivers ( held as the gold standard in M14 receivers). They didn't make that distinction with any other M14 knock off. They also mention that the CMP at one time considered using M14 receivers to provide match grade rifle for service rifle matches but reconsidered for political reasons. And as you have clearly stated, politics is your real problem with these rifles. Deny it if you want but it's obvious by your comments about the PLA and communists.

You respounded making WILD accusations about SAI and Fulton

Wild accusations? Show me. Everything I said about both companies is true and undisputable. It's a fact that owners of new SA Inc. M1A's have had problems with their bolts flying apart (losing extactors/ejectors/springs and pins). It's a fact that Fulton Armory sells their own brand of M14 knock off and high priced gunsmithing services. It's a fact that Smith Enterprises offers heat treatment for SA Inc. receivers. It's a fact that they also recommend replacing SA Inc. commercial op-rods with USGI or Chinese.

rather than offer other web pages that sing the praises of the Chicoms.

Smith Enterprises rates the major components of Chinese M14's as on par with USGI. They don't make that distinction with any other M14 knock off. I provided the entire page of their M14 rifle comparisons. Try reading it this time. You value the opinions of the M14 "experts". Smith Enterprises was chosen to modify M14 rifles for the US Army for use in Iraq. Was Fulton or SA Inc.? But Ron Smiths opinion isn't good enough for you because it goes against the internet BS that you choose to spout off trying to defend your opinion.

As it turns out.....I spoke with Claude at ARMSCORP

Who?

It sounds like several members out here have had good experiences with Chicom rifles. Personally, for my very own self, they're not my cup of tea. And anyone who is new to the M14 should know both sides before they buy a rifle that may require more money than they have to get up to useful spec.

And anyone who doesn't know WTF they are talking about shouldn't give advice.

So...can we kiss and make up now???

Yeah, we can make up now. But if you want to kiss me, I'll pick the spot.

Quoted: Quoted: I simply made an off-handed comment about going to Fulton's web page and simply reading about the Chicom rifles, just to learn what a buyer may have to deal with. Without any personal experience with Chnese rifles, you posted an opinion based on anecdotal information that you read on the net then quoted only the info from Fulton that supported your opinion. Yes, Personal experience is a plus, yet it isn't the only critera for an analysis. Do you need to take a punch in the face to know it's a bad thing? No. Sure, taking one adds another level of understanding but it isn't the only criteria. I've read all the info on Fulton's sight, you left a little out. like the fact that after analyzing Chinese M14 receivers they rated the geometry, that is the dimensions and overall straightness as good as USGI TRW receivers ( held as the gold standard in M14 receivers). They didn't make that distinction with any other M14 knock off.. Fine. But that doesn't remove the fact that many other companies offer services specifically for the Chicom rifles. The Fulton page was a single stop for information. I never said it was the alpha and omega of all knowledge about Chicom parts and rifles. I merely made a suggestion that triggered your "Fulton is an evil money grubbing company" gene RATHER THAN the "here are some other web pages" gene. USGI will trump all comers, that's the most desired. They also mention that the CMP at one time considered using M14 receivers to provide match grade rifle for service rifle matches but reconsidered for political reasons. . Ummm...okay. So what? And as you have clearly stated, politics is your real problem with these rifles. Deny it if you want but it's obvious by your comments about the PLA and communists.. LOL. Actually, QUALITY and SAFETY is my FIRST concern...as I stated again....and again.....and again. The fact that they're from a Communist country is a close SECOND. You respounded making WILD accusations about SAI and Fulton Wild accusations? Show me. Okay: #1 You mean Fulton Armory that sells high priced gunsmithing services and their own brand of M14 knock off? That Fulton Armory? Yeah, I trust their opinions. Wow, that's alot of sarcasim for someone who to my knowledge HAS NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with a FULTON GUN. You remember your motto "PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TRUMPS ALL SUCKER!" #2 You're going to fire a couple thousand rounds out of a new, out of the box SA Inc M1A? You might get a couple hundred before the bolt flies apart. Keeping your motto in mind...you've PERSONALLY OWNED an SAI that has had a "bolt fly apart" after a "couple of hundred" rounds? I never said the SAI was the greatest company in the world...but I do OWN a SAI Standard M1A that has several thousand rounds through it, no FTF or other issues. So in your universe of "PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ONLY" that makes the SAI the greatest rifle out there. The point I'm making is that personal experience is important, but so knowledge.

Everything I said about both companies is true and undisputable. It's a fact that owners of new SA Inc. M1A's have had problems with their bolts flying apart (losing extactors/ejectors/springs and pins). It's a fact that Fulton Armory sells their own brand of M14 knock off and high priced gunsmithing services.

I never made the claim the SAI was perfect. That was your battle cry Johnny Yuma. Sure peole have had issues...but have there been ANY PROBLEMS WITH ChiCom M14s? Are you trying to say that NO ChiCom M14 has ever had any issues whatsoever? If that's true, all of the companies out there offering ChiCom rebuild services are criminal. Yes, Fulton is expensive...but I noticed you didn't write that their rifles are terrible, just expensive. Not choosing a company because it's out of your budget is a perfectly reasonable statemennt. But dumping on them for it is needless.   It's a fact that Smith Enterprises offers heat treatment for SA Inc. receivers. It's a fact that they also recommend replacing SA Inc. commercial op-rods with USGI or Chinese. Funny, I found this service: M-14 CHINESE BOLT CONVERSION The "Bolt Conversion" corrects the Chinese bolt problem.  This service makes the Chinese M14 a "Rack" Grade Rifle.     Wait a minute....the Chinese bolt problem??? The SMITH ENT. WEB PAGE states there is a PROBLEM with the Chinese Bolt and it needs to be SERVICED to be brought up to RACK GRADE? Hmmmm....I think they they might be right....I don't have any "PERSONAL EXPERIENCE" with SMITH ENT. But I think they know what they're talking about...atleast that's what I've read in YOUR posts. Sincere question here: Could you point me to where the Smith web page lists the SAI services? Thanks. rather than offer other web pages that sing the praises of the Chicoms. Smith Enterprises rates the major components of Chinese M14's as on par with USGI. They don't make that distinction with any other M14 knock off. I provided the entire page of their M14 rifle comparisons. Try reading it this time. Fine...but they also offer services to get the Chinese rifles up to rack grade. Or is that not true. And the same with all the companies....they ALL offer Chicom Rifles services. Furthermore, I simply said it's a crap shoot buying one. I didn't say THEY'RE ALL CRAP...like your comments about SAI. I'm sure there are plenty of Chicom rifles that work great...but I'd like to read about one that has 5-10-15 thousand rounds without ANY MAJOR PART replacment or Chicom service upgrade.   You value the opinions of the M14 "experts". Smith Enterprises was chosen to modify M14 rifles for the US Army for use in Iraq. Was Fulton or SA Inc.?   Oh my! Smith was the lowest bidder! But seriously, I don't care about that. USGI means lowest bidder, not highest quality. You can believe that it does, but it doesn't. In the case of the USGI M14 parts, they were made VERY ROBUST to be able to fire thousands of rounds on fully automatic fire which isn't the case for M1As. Fulton uses all USGI parts except for their home grown Reciever. From there web page: Fulton Armory M14 Receiver Made with Original USGI Parts Sounds good to me! Also, are you claiming that ALL M14 type rifles in IRAQ are made by SMITH? This is from Fulton's web page: So....is SMITH supplying the US MILITARY with CHINESE M14's? I'm guessing not, and not just for "Political reasons" But Ron Smiths opinion isn't good enough for you because it goes against the internet BS that you choose to spout off trying to defend your opinion. Now that's you "spouting off" as you would say, about what I said. 1) Never disputed Mr. Smith. Matter of fact, I think his company's services to UPGRADE CHINESE RIFLES TO RACK GRADE ARE MOST LIKELY THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS. 2) BS? That's YOUR opinion, and your entitled to it....However, I've said nothing unreasonable that deserves the above jerkiness, so keep it civil...okay? I've been VERY polite up until this point and ask you to refrain from the above comments. As it turns out.....I spoke with Claude at ARMSCORP

Who?  

Sorry...the fact he works for Armscorp is apparently not enough. So now not only am I not allowed to READ and info, I can't even TALK to anybody at these companies unless their name is "MR. SMITH" or "MR.ARMSCORP"

Since name dropping is important to you: "I spoke with Johnny Depp at Armscorp..."

Better?

Fact is...you didn't seem to dispute what he said. And frankly, if you were even slightly reasonable you'd recognize that JOHNNY DEPP (aka Claude at ARMSCORP) didn't say ANYTHING bad. He even said that the ChiComs are generally okay BUT ODDS ARE IT WILL REQUIRE WORK.

It sounds like several members out here have had good experiences with Chicom rifles. Personally, for my very own self, they're not my cup of tea. And anyone who is new to the M14 should know both sides before they buy a rifle that may require more money than they have to get up to useful spec.

And anyone who doesn't know WTF they are talking about shouldn't give advice.

Oh man..YOU put me in my place....I'm never going to give an opinion ever again...even if I can back up my opinion with information from Smiths, Armscorp and Differents....oh geeees! I'm done for..........





Sike!




Whether or not the fellow who started the thread takes my advice is his own business. My reason for posting was to pass on what I've learned that he should be careful since many companies, including SMITH, offer services to UPGRADE CHINESE M14's to RACK GRADE. YES, they're forged and inexpensive..but the QC is a tricky and you may have problems....problems that you can only resolved by going to SMITH, ARMSCORP, FULTON, etc etc et al. An SAI rifle is backed up by a company, and can be upgraded with USGI parts. THAT's ALL I WANTED TO PASS ON, THE KNOWLEDGE THAT SMITH's ARMSCORP, (the dreaded) FULTON and Different's info page ALL HIGHLIGHT. I picked Fulton as a source because 1) as a PATRON of Fulton, they've provided me GREAT AR's, great service and a great deal of information....so I have no reason to believe they are LIARS PEDDLING UNNEEDED SERVICES. And since you, have NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH FULTON, you have no legitimate reason to disbelieve them since you haven't been personally screwed over by them...(remember your motto). If you like, I'll change my source to any of the others that recommend CHINESE M14 RIFLES REQUIRE SERVICE to be qualified as RACK GRADE.


So...can we kiss and make up now???




Yeah, we can make up now. But if you want to kiss me, I'll pick the spot.


Yikes! Sorry man, maybe you got the wrong idea.....I don't swing that way. How about we just shake hands on it then???

Holy crap....

Nothing has dissuaded me from buying an M14 like reading this thread.........

I feel like it's LRB or Fulton for $2000 or just save my damn money and forget about any other manufacturer.

Hell that long comparison bewteen the different M1A manufacturers written by Smith even suggested replacing some Springfield parts WITH SUPERIOR CHINESE PARTS?!?!?

WTF ! ! ! ! and I'm not asking about the Wild Turkey Federation ! ! ! !

Why would you automatically have to replace the Chinese bolts anyway? Won't it work with what it came with???

I'm just about to say screw these rifles if it's this hard to get one worth a damn.......

Quoted: Why would you automatically have to replace the Chinese bolts anyway? Won't it work with what it came with??? I'm just about to say screw these rifles if it's this hard to get one worth a damn.......

The chinese rifles are chambered for 7.62 nato instead of .308win

The headspace starts out too long for .308 but still within reason to safely shoot .308win, now when since the bolt is softer then it should be the headspace increases faster then normal and will now be outside the allowed tolerance for .308 but still be within them for 7.62nato.

As long as you shoot 7.62nato you dont need to worry about changing the bolts out.

Either get an older springfield from say around 93 or before or an LRB if you want to just get it and shoot.

If you want to save some money get a chicom one for about $7-800 then spend $2-300 upgrading the necessary parts.

The chinese rifles are chambered for 7.62 nato instead of .308win The headspace starts out too long for .308 but still within reason to safely shoot .308win, now when since the bolt is softer then it should be the headspace increases faster then normal and will now be outside the allowed tolerance for .308 but still be within them for 7.62nato. As long as you shoot 7.62nato you dont need to worry about changing the bolts out. Either get an older springfield from say around 93 or before or an LRB if you want to just get it and shoot. If you want to save some money get a chicom one for about $7-800 then spend $2-300 upgrading the necessary parts.

I'm glad you wrote this. All I shoot is military surplus 7.62 in my mil sup rifle that takes "308".

Therefore, if I understand you correctly, there would be no need for "upgrading necessary parts" as long as I continue shooting mil sup ammo.

If I wanted to start shooting commerical 308, THEN and ONLY then would I need to do the bolt conversion if I bought the Norimco or Polytec.

Springfield on the other hand, will shoot mil sup 7.62 AND commerical 308 just the same.

Right?