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That's very interesting. Thanks for running the experiment. Did you also compare the case length and neck length to a standard spec for .223? It looks like there was plenty of neck to trim in your pics. Did you compare accuracy between regular brass and converted blanks? Was there a noticable difference?
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Originally Posted By ajroyer:
That's very interesting. Thanks for running the experiment. Did you also compare the case length and neck length to a standard spec for .223? It looks like there was plenty of neck to trim in your pics. Did you compare accuracy between regular brass and converted blanks? Was there a noticable difference? Uh, no. I just shot them hoping my rifle didn't blow up. They trimmed to 1.750 just fine, but there was a little rose petal crimp that had to be sized open, then I trimmed again to remove it. Now if it ever gets warmer and I'm not shivering I'll try for accuracy. |
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
Originally Posted By WI57:
Originally Posted By ajroyer:
That's very interesting. Thanks for running the experiment. Did you also compare the case length and neck length to a standard spec for .223? It looks like there was plenty of neck to trim in your pics. Did you compare accuracy between regular brass and converted blanks? Was there a noticable difference? Uh, no. I just shot them hoping my rifle didn't blow up. They trimmed to 1.750 just fine, but there was a little rose petal crimp that had to be sized open, then I trimmed again to remove it. Now if it ever gets warmer and I'm not shivering I'll try for accuracy. You do realize that the brass used in 'blank' cartridges is very thin compared to normal commercial and military brass? It's designed to accomodate pressures way under what even a light 223 load exhibits. I don't think I'd make a practice of loading 'blank' cases as rule. Consider yourself lucky. Chris |
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Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
You do realize that the brass used in 'blank' cartridges is very thin compared to normal commercial and military brass? It's designed to accomodate pressures way under what even a light 223 load exhibits. I don't think I'd make a practice of loading 'blank' cases as rule. Consider yourself lucky. Chris I halved one a while ago and it looked just like every other 5.56 case, except it has a rose crimp on the mouth. I'll section one tomorrow and post pics. ETA- where do you mean when you say thinner? Just so I can cut these the correct way to see what they look like? |
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
Cut them in half lengthwise and measure the web area, just ahead of the extractor groove, say 0-3mm .
Cut some regular Lake City lengthwise and measure the same area. You'll know it when you see it. Honestly bro, it's your face and you can play chicken all you want, but you're not supposed to make (fire) live ammo using 'blank brass.' Chris |
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Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
WA, USA
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Thick webs on those used to be blanks.
In for more test results.
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Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other. |
I would have scoffed too if I had not seen it with my own eyes. You should call it something like .223 Blank-Out
I soon predict a shortage of blank ammo in our area Nice right up guy! And thanks for quote, LOL |
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A Soldier who can't shoot isn't.
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Its interesting that the round that separated did it at the cannelure near the base. I know .223 rounds can be reloaded more than 3 times without this issue if headspace is not excessive or too hot, so why did this one fail? Also putting the crimp on the case mouth for blanks could possibly stress the brass to where even if you cut off this part you will end up having some split necks because the brass is still stressed from the star crimping (I think). Its interesting and maybe worth it if you have a lot of this brass and use it once only.
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Originally Posted By downrivertrash:
Its interesting that the round that separated did it at the cannelure near the base. I know .223 rounds can be reloaded more than 3 times without this issue if headspace is not excessive or too hot, so why did this one fail? Also putting the crimp on the case mouth for blanks could possibly stress the brass to where even if you cut off this part you will end up having some split necks because the brass is still stressed from the star crimping (I think). Its interesting and maybe worth it if you have a lot of this brass and use it once only. The round that tore was a large letter FC 223 brass. It never had a cannelure but still split in that approx area, so it will be interesting to see if the re-used blanks do that as well. I was reloading the large letter FC brass to see how long it could go and it gave up on the 3rd firing. But I didn't notice anything different while shooting, it wasn't until I went to recover the brass did I notice it had split. I will continue to test 10 of these blank cases and see what happens. If I can get past 3 loads without the mouths cracking or the heads ripping off I'll be happy loading new blank brass once for places I cannot recover my brass. This will all be fired out of a 20" AR15 with a 5.56 chamber. |
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
That's awesome man, but don't you be taking my lake city brass and giving me blank brass instead in my reloads.
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Wicked windy, super far, a buncha mils, send it!
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
I've done it before with no issues, but it's too much trouble. I guess if I ever get hard up for brass, I can pull apart the SAW belt of blanks that I have and use those. I have over 300 rounds of .50 caliber blanks as well. I don't think I'd want to load .50 blanks into live ammo.
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I have a feeling the 50cal blanks are coming;) Can we do 762 next? I know how those come out.
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I tried this with a 7.62 LC blank a long time ago. Didn't work too well as the 7.62 blank neck thickness was very excessive.
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I thought you were testing durability? Dropping a grain is like Happy Gilmore cracking the sand trap rake instead of breaking it and leaving it lie instead of throwing it in the woods! 364 more days until tryouts to toughen up.
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Originally Posted By heavy260:
I thought you were testing durability? Dropping a grain is like Happy Gilmore cracking the sand trap rake instead of breaking it and leaving it lie instead of throwing it in the woods! 364 more days until tryouts to toughen up. Tough crowd... . I'll see how they do with 25.0gr as that's probably close to what others would load. Just because 27.0gr works in my rifle doesn't mean it will in other people guns. I'll stick with 25.0 as its a good all around load that shouldn't show pressure in most other rifles. |
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
Wasn't that barrel under my 24x PST the other day?
Thanks for cutting it so we can see in detail. This thread is full of interesting info. Thanks! And I know where there is a good chrono if you need it. |
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A Soldier who can't shoot isn't.
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Explain to this uneducated person why the blank cases are knurled near the base?
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Tennessee Squire
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Originally Posted By AMUshooter10:
Wasn't that barrel under my 24x PST the other day? Thanks for cutting it so we can see in detail. This thread is full of interesting info. Thanks! And I know where there is a good chrono if you need it. Ha, that barrel was more like the one you trashed at the trijicon shoot. If they make it past 3 loads I'll fire until they are trashed then start accuracy/velocity testing with a new batch. I wouldn't even feel bad if a blank-out round took out your chrono, it would make for a good video. |
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
Originally Posted By SandHillsHillbilly:
Explain to this uneducated person why the blank cases are knurled near the base? Honestly I'm not sure, maybe to visually identify the casing if you cannot see the crimp? I know on the old 7.62 match ammo it was to identify the round as "Not for combat use". Because it was frowned upon back then shooting people with match bullets IIRC? I plan on trying to call Lake City tomorrow and seeing what they say, I looked all over for their email and only found the ATK corporate ones. |
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
Interesting.
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NRA Endowment
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Pretty interesting thread. I doubt I will ever do it because I dont have a supply of blanks and enough people leave good brass at my ranges that I always come home with way more than I shot. That and case prep is the bane of my reloading existance.
Most .50 blank brass I have ever picked up from my tanks have had the rose crimp completely blown out so it looked like live brass. If you just fire it all off it should blow out the crimp and be a straight case mouth like regular. At least straight enough that it will feed into a resizer die and work it self out. Ive done that with many a .308 and .223 case that someone stepped on or an HK91 gave a healthy ding to. |
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For those who are too scared to load 55,000 PSI 223 loads with blank brass, you could still cut them down to 300 Blackout length and load 220 grain bullets to sub-sonic velocity:
That load only produces about 21,000 PSI - which is less than half of what 223 loads typically produce. And it has been done before: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/361422_Can_5_56_blanks_be_cut_down_and_loaded_into_300_Blackout_.html |
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For those who are too scared to load 55,000 PSI 223 loads with blank brass, you could still cut them down to 300 Blackout length and load 220 grain bullets to sub-sonic velocity:
That load only produces about 21,000 PSI - which is less than half of what 223 loads typically produce. And it has been done before: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/361422_Can_5_56_blanks_be_cut_down_and_loaded_into_300_Blackout_.html |
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Nice
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A Soldier who can't shoot isn't.
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great thread and great work. this should put some of the nay sayers to rest.
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Crickets? Laffin! Funny how quiet things are when the proof is right there.
Will a small base die take the bulge away that has developed? |
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But How can that be. "everybody" knows that blank brass is made from different material. I read that right hear on this very board. As a matter of fact I believe this very thread. It is completely irrelevant what information the OP has found. Because guys on the internet heard there cousins uncle best friends sisters nephew who reloads say that the brass is different, and I believe them.
Sarcasm off. OP excellent work up and research. I love it when someone actually proves that some people will believe anything they hear someone say. But will continue to believe it even with contrary proof looking them right between the eyes. |
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Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
WA, USA
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Excellent detective work W157. You put a lot of effort into this thread.
I have set the toggle on this thread to keep it out of the archives. (Page with a green arrow icon.) So in the future if you want to link to this thread, just click on MY TOPICS and it will be there. You can now post a link to this thread up in the Gateway thread, so anyone can find it. |
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other. |
Originally Posted By boomfab:
I tried this with a 7.62 LC blank a long time ago. Didn't work too well as the 7.62 blank neck thickness was very excessive. The 762 brass I sectioned and measured showed no difference in thickness. If you want to go to .0001 of an inch you could say there was, but in the brass I measured there was no difference. This is a good thread. I hope it keeps rolling for a while. |
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As my earlier posts and my subsequent PMs to you indicate, it's not something that you want to do lightly.
The case head area isn't the main consern, it's the radiused part blending into the side of the body where you want to measure. Another issue that I came across in the .gov TM is the weight of the brass cases, when trimmed to equal lengths. The M200 weighs 107grs as per the TM, there are 7 grains of propellant and then the primer...so 107-7 minus the weight of the primer and any sealant on that primer. Trim the blanks, remove any primer crimps and then compare them to your LC brass that you have, which has been prepped in the exact manner and see what weight differences you find. You can also do a water test and fill them with water (leave in a fired primer to make things equal) and then measure the weight of the water for case capacity. If they're equal, then there's your answer. Chris |
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OUTSTANDING! Many thanks to you shivering for science.
Why does everyone know that blanks have less metal than regular cartridges? B/c our grandpas told us that. Why did they tell us that? Why, they believed it was true. Why MIGHT it have been true in our grandpas' day? The 2nd WW & brass shortages, perhaps. Why didn't anyone notice the change? B/c folks like WI57 are few & far between, and without a forum to post in, they become gunwriters. And gunwriters are paid by industry to praise the products of industry. And industry doesn't like it when you buy the cheap stuff & make the expensive good stuff - so the gunwriters never reported it... Gig 'em, backbencher |
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Very interesting post.
Excellent pictures. Many thanks. |
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"I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it." - Capt. W. F. Call, Texas Ranger
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ |
I guess I don't have to wonder why you were late tonight...
The blanks have taken over your life!!! Sounds like you have yourself some 3 gun leave-it-lay ammo to me. Very nice job and write up |
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A Soldier who can't shoot isn't.
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Not being a gambling man I'd still bet you can double the life of your (former blank) brass by annealing it before first firing and maybe after the third firing.
Sizing work-hardening the case mouths will be very similar with your former blanks as with commercial brass. A small base die might help with the bulges/ring above the extractor groove. |
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I'd say the research is done. Myth BUSTED!
Now go buy a BB gun but don't shoot your eye out. |
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I'll nominate making 7.62x25 out of the brass as well as 300 BLK.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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"As God is my witness, I though turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By R2point0:
I'll nominate making 7.62x25 out of the brass as well as 300 BLK. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That would be cool |
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A Soldier who can't shoot isn't.
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Originally Posted By SandHillsHillbilly:
Explain to this uneducated person why the blank cases are knurled near the base? The documentation (mainly the operator's TM) states that the knurling is for tactile identification - you should be able to feel the knurling even if you can't see the case, though I don't know why that is more effective than feeling the rosette crimp at the mouth. I am impressed at the durability of those former blank cases. My points earlier were not about the material, but about how the cases are treated during the manufacturing process. Blanks don't need the same elasticity at the shoulder and neck as live rounds do, so there is no real reason to anneal the cases the same way as live cases. This may explain the neck splits you have experienced. If you're going to the trouble of cutting down and reforming these cases, you might want to anneal the next batch and see how the necks behave. |
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein |
If you're going to the trouble of cutting down and reforming these cases, you might want to anneal the next batch and see how the necks behave.
His goal was to make "shoot it and leave it brass". All the reloading in this thread was to prove the internet commandos wrong. Annealing the brass would be a waste of time. Not mad, just saying. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
The documentation (mainly the operator's TM) states that the knurling is for tactile identification - you should be able to feel the knurling even if you can't see the case, though I don't know why that is more effective than feeling the rosette crimp at the mouth. I am impressed at the durability of those former blank cases. My points earlier were not about the material, but about how the cases are treated during the manufacturing process. Blanks don't need the same elasticity at the shoulder and neck as live rounds do, so there is no real reason to anneal the cases the same way as live cases. This may explain the neck splits you have experienced. If you're going to the trouble of cutting down and reforming these cases, you might want to anneal the next batch and see how the necks behave. I believe you are right, there is annealing marks on the blank brass, but it appears to be just near the top and I think its just for the rose petal crimp. I am trying to track down a guy with an annealer locally and have a line on one to use. I'm going to try to anneal a few and see if that makes them last longer. But my whole intention of this was if I could make 3gun brass I could just leave lay at the stages and not worry about having to try to get my "good" brass back. |
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Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting. |
I would not expect any difference in brass alloy or cartridge shape between normal and blank because of the huge safety problem a difference would make.
From the outside they look exactly the same when they come to the line in rolls, and they looked exactly the same when they came off the rotary presses. One person dropping/ixing an ID card, batch card......would result in hundreds/thousands? of rounds out of spec, either with too thin and weak or too thick and stiff for the next stage of manufacturing and final pressures expected. Much easier to make all the brass exactly the same off the initial presses. Wash and anneal, finish pressing to shape all the same until the final trim. Leave those designated for blank production get trimmed to a different length. Then they can be more easily differentiated. I would guess the blanks and normal rounds get a different neck anneal due to their different final form. One must be correctly sized for slight press fit for bullet retention with crimp while the blank requires the rosette press to pinch shut. |
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"This is a Glock & Wesson 45mm FPO designed in 1789 by Colt Koch"
I should be in the desert blowing up the sunshine. NRA Life Member Mechanical, Manufacturing, Mining and Explosives Engineer |
I just want to chime in and say thanks to the OP for his efforts in producing this thread of quality input to this website.
Thanks. |
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"Because I have heard this is the house of needle dick management, and I'm swinging a 12 inch cock and I'm here to take over!" - no attribution, so sue me.
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