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Posted: 9/4/2010 7:18:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Could be the primers were not seated deep enough. Primers are rarely bad. Did you remove the primer crimp?
Unfired loaded cases that will not extract, that's because they were not sized enough before loading. Get a case gauge to set your FL die correctly. Up in Tutorials, there is a 4 part "loading 223" that explains the process. Good luck |
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Posted: 9/4/2010 7:42:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Unfired loaded cases that will not extract, that's because they were not sized enough before loading. Get a case gauge to set your FL die correctly. My thinking to. If not sized enough the bolt won't close, if the bolt isn't in battery the round won't fire. The "strike" on the primer is normal since the AR15 has a floating firing pin |
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Posted: 9/4/2010 8:11:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Primers can go bad as they age even when stored under excellent conditions. Last year I loaded up a batch of 223 with Winchester primers that I bought back in the 80's. Back then I was buying primers in 50,000 lots and I had a couple bricks left so I decided to finish them up. Normally these primers were 100% but I had a number of duds, a noticeable change from normal. About 5 in 100 were duds. Needless to say the remaining primers will only go into practice ammo.
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Posted: 9/4/2010 10:58:10 PM EDT
[#4]
This is where a Small Base die helps. People here say it's not necessary, but it would of solved those two stuck rounds. More than likely all those rounds you fired were sized at one time and only those two cases had a significant amount of "spring back" and caused the case to stick in the chamber. Small Base Dies eliminate the problem of cases betting stuck in semi autos because they size the base of the case just a couple thousandths smaller for easier feeding and extraction. I have had the exact same thing happen to me too. Lots of people here will say "You didn't have your sizing die adjusted correctly, and you don't need a SB Die" ... but if that was the case why did all those other rounds work just fine??? The fact of the matter is - using a bolt gun - you have a lot more leverage to "push" a round into the chamber. When using a semi-auto - the buffer spring is the only thing that is going to push the round into the chamber. The amount of pressure a semi-auto uses to chamber a round is significantly less than what can be achieved by manually operating a bolt. After the bolt strips a round out of the magazine and returns to battery - there is not a lot of "energy" left in the bolt. If it encounters a round that is even slightly difficult to chamber; then it will fail .... that is why the forward assist was created. Even with the forward assist you are not able to achieve the leverage you could using a bolt gun - and were back were we started ..... and that is why it is important to use small base dies when operating an auto loader. Chances are you might not ever have a round "stick" on you again, but when the Shit Hits the Fan .... I want to make sure my ammo loads with no issues at all.
And as far as a case gauge goes. I had a round that got stuck in the chamber once - I gauged it and thought it was a tight fit ... it did gauge fine. A case gauge is a good tool, but it doesn't always mean that your ammo will work in every gun, and who wants to gauge 1,000 rounds after a loading session anyway. Sarg |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 6:16:18 AM EDT
[#5]
An incorrectly adjusted SB die will not give any better results than an incorrectly adjusted FL die.
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:17:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Let me guess, Russian primers? Russian primers must be firmly seated all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket, lest problems like this one will result. I use a double or even triple hit when seating them. I turn the case 1/3 and add pressure again, then again. It's time consuming, but will eliminate this problem.
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Posted: 9/5/2010 8:09:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unfired loaded cases that will not extract, that's because they were not sized enough before loading. Get a case gauge to set your FL die correctly. My thinking to. If not sized enough the bolt won't close, if the bolt isn't in battery the round won't fire. The "strike" on the primer is normal since the AR15 has a floating firing pin I'm new at this, so I need it to be as simple as possible to unerstand what is going on. You are saying that I didn't size theose 2 cases properly so they stuck in the chamber and prevented the bolt from closing, right? It looked closed, but I guess it only tales a fraction of an inch to misfire, correct? I sized these in batches though, why would all of them be good expect these 2? Also, even if the case was stuck and the bolt didn't close all the way, why doesn't the round go off if the primer is struck? BTW, I bought the primers w/ in the last month, although who knows how long they have been on the shelf. But I doubt it was long enough for them too just be old. Also, not Russian, they were Remington 6 1/2 |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 8:11:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
This is where a Small Base die helps. People here say it's not necessary, but it would of solved those two stuck rounds. More than likely all those rounds you fired were sized at one time and only those two cases had a significant amount of "spring back" and caused the case to stick in the chamber. Small Base Dies eliminate the problem of cases betting stuck in semi autos because they size the base of the case just a couple thousandths smaller for easier feeding and extraction. I have had the exact same thing happen to me too. Lots of people here will say "You didn't have your sizing die adjusted correctly, and you don't need a SB Die" ... but if that was the case why did all those other rounds work just fine??? The fact of the matter is - using a bolt gun - you have a lot more leverage to "push" a round into the chamber. When using a semi-auto - the buffer spring is the only thing that is going to push the round into the chamber. The amount of pressure a semi-auto uses to chamber a round is significantly less than what can be achieved by manually operating a bolt. After the bolt strips a round out of the magazine and returns to battery - there is not a lot of "energy" left in the bolt. If it encounters a round that is even slightly difficult to chamber; then it will fail .... that is why the forward assist was created. Even with the forward assist you are not able to achieve the leverage you could using a bolt gun - and were back were we started ..... and that is why it is important to use small base dies when operating an auto loader. Chances are you might not ever have a round "stick" on you again, but when the Shit Hits the Fan .... I want to make sure my ammo loads with no issues at all. And as far as a case gauge goes. I had a round that got stuck in the chamber once - I gauged it and thought it was a tight fit ... it did gauge fine. A case gauge is a good tool, but it doesn't always mean that your ammo will work in every gun, and who wants to gauge 1,000 rounds after a loading session anyway. Sarg Thanks |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 12:21:18 PM EDT
[#9]
I think you need a case gauge to make sure your rounds are correctly sized, and within allowable limits of length etc. Primers don't cause them to stick in the chamber.
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:18:32 PM EDT
[#10]
An AR15 bolt must be completely in battery for the firing pin to extended far enough from the bolt face to light off the primer. So if the bolt is not closed all the way you can get primer strikes that will not light off the primer. Sounds like your 2 rounds that would not fire for some reason had to much head space and didn't let the bolt go all the way into battery. The case gauge would tell you if they were sized enough to be the correct head space but the .223 case gauge is not a mock chamber like a .45 case gauge is so it will not tell you if there is a bulge in the case wall that is keeping it from being chambered all the way so the bolt is in battery. I loaded up some blasting ammo a while back on some free FC brass. I had about 10 rnds out of 1000 that did this same thing. When the rnds were loaded the 2nd time they all fired. I think they were just a little to tight to let the bolt close all the way.
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Posted: 9/6/2010 7:29:37 AM EDT
[#11]
Thanks for all the answers guys. I took the offending rounds apart last night and the ones that didn't go off and got stuck had burned the base of the bullets. They may not have actually been burned, but when I pulled the bullet out the base was black. Any idea what that is about? Here is a pic, although I took it w/ my cell phone so it is crap, but if you look carefully you can see what I mean. FYI, I am holding the bullet by the tip w/ pliars.
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Posted: 9/6/2010 7:34:25 AM EDT
[#12]
Did the case above contain gunpowder?
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Posted: 9/6/2010 7:49:06 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Did the case above contain gunpowder? Ya, that bullet came out of one of the 2 rounds that didn't go off. |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 9:21:26 AM EDT
[#14]
What was your powder load?
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Posted: 9/6/2010 1:33:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Did you measure your cases for length after sizing? A case that is way too long can prevent the bolt from closing all the way, even if the case is fully sized. I have found that .223 cases can grow pretty quickly, especially if being fired in 5.56 chambers, then sized in .223 dies. Most will be overlength after the first firing and sizing. Some will be WAY overlength.
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Posted: 9/6/2010 2:30:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Did you measure your cases for length after sizing? A case that is way too long can prevent the bolt from closing all the way, even if the case is fully sized. I have found that .223 cases can grow pretty quickly, especially if being fired in 5.56 chambers, then sized in .223 dies. Most will be overlength after the first firing and sizing. Some will be WAY overlength. Ya, I measure and trim (if needed) all of my .223 before I load it |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 2:30:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
What was your powder load? 24 grains of IMR4895 |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 2:39:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: What was your powder load? 24 grains of IMR4895 If the base of the bullet was burned, and the gun didn't go bang, then your charge wasn't 24 grains of IMR 4895. |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 5:02:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What was your powder load? 24 grains of IMR4895 If the base of the bullet was burned, and the gun didn't go bang, then your charge wasn't 24 grains of IMR 4895. Care to elaborate? How could all of the other rounds have been charged fine but 2 out of several hundred weren't? |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 5:09:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What was your powder load? 24 grains of IMR4895 Back up. List all the details about the load - cartridge (.223 Rem, .22-250, etc.), primer, powder and charge, bullet make, diameter, and weight, case, trim length, number of times the cases had been fired, whether a bullet crimp is applied or not, any case preparation such as primer pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring, flash hole uniforming, flash hole diameter modification (enlargement), case lube used, whether the cases were delubed, everything - don't leave anything out. Include the type of rifle. |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 5:18:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What was your powder load? 24 grains of IMR4895 If the base of the bullet was burned, and the gun didn't go bang, then your charge wasn't 24 grains of IMR 4895. Care to elaborate? How could all of the other rounds have been charged fine but 2 out of several hundred weren't? A few different possibilities: 1) Sequence interrupted for one reason or another and didn't charge the case with powder (TV, girlfriend/wife, radio, etc), you lost track and didn't keep a close eye on the process. 2) Powder bridging in the powder-drop sequence of loading (you didn't double-check for a powder charge before continuing). 3) A myriad of other possibilities, and not double-checking for a powder charge. Don't take offense to it, because we are ALL guilty of it...it happens. If we don't pay attention, we can miss a case that has no powder charge. I say "no powder charge" becuase you simply had a primer, and no powder. any amount of powder, and that bullet would have separated from the case neck, and would have lodged itself in the leade of the rifling...at least. Keep close attention to your loading process. |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 5:56:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
If the base of the bullet was burned, and the gun didn't go bang, then your charge wasn't 24 grains of IMR 4895. +1 The load definitely didn't have 24 grains of any powder behind it. jonblack |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 5:59:47 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm not suggesting you do this, but this is what I would do if I were having your problem and unsure what caused it. I would intentionally load a round with no powder, only a primer. To reduce any danger of firing on top of a squib round, I would load only one round in the magazine of my test gun. I would fire the round. If my results were the same as yours, I would be pretty certain that I didn't have any powder in the loaded cartridge.
Again, that is just how I would solve the issue in my own mind jonblack |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 6:21:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What was your powder load? 24 grains of IMR4895 If the base of the bullet was burned, and the gun didn't go bang, then your charge wasn't 24 grains of IMR 4895. Care to elaborate? How could all of the other rounds have been charged fine but 2 out of several hundred weren't? A few different possibilities: 1) Sequence interrupted for one reason or another and didn't charge the case with powder (TV, girlfriend/wife, radio, etc), you lost track and didn't keep a close eye on the process. 2) Powder bridging in the powder-drop sequence of loading (you didn't double-check for a powder charge before continuing). 3) A myriad of other possibilities, and not double-checking for a powder charge. Don't take offense to it, because we are ALL guilty of it...it happens. If we don't pay attention, we can miss a case that has no powder charge. I say "no powder charge" becuase you simply had a primer, and no powder. any amount of powder, and that bullet would have separated from the case neck, and would have lodged itself in the leade of the rifling...at least. Keep close attention to your loading process. No offense taken, I was genuinely curious, although reading back, I guess I did sound kind of snotty. I am 100% sure there was powder in there because I dumped it out when I pulled the bullets out. I guess it could have been a weak charge, but just by seeing how much came out when I dumped them, it looked like a normal amount. At least enough to make some kind of bang. OK, going all the way back to the begining since I keep adding more info, here we go: Bushmaster M4gery Once fired brass, mostly Federal and LC Imr 4895, 24 grains Bulk FMJBT 55 grain bullets Remington small rifle, 6 1/2 primers Cases were cleaned, FL sized, measured, trimmed, chamfered, primer pockets cleaned and then reloaded on a Lee single stage press Here is what happened. I had say 300ish rounds, shot about 150 maybe. Of that, 2 didn't go off. Both times when it didn;t go off, the bolt was stuck closed and I had to bang the butt of the rifle on the table and pull the charging handle. When I did that the bolt popped open and the round popped right out. The primer had a strike mark. When I got home I pulled the bullets out of the cases and they were both burned on the bottom. I dumped the powder out of the cases and although I didn't measure how much there was, it looked like a normal amount, at least enough to make some noise. I appreciate any and all info as I am very new at reloading and would prefer to not blow my face off or destroy my guns. Thanks in advance guys |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 7:06:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Regardless of the other problems you need to stop using Remington 6 1/2 primers for full pressure .223 Rem loads.
Take a good look at the packaging. You'll find a warning that these primers should be used for cartridges with pressures similar to .22 Hornet, about 40000 psi CUP maximum. Here's the good news - these primers can be used in .223 Rem, but you need to find load data that shows chamber pressures 40000 psi or less. The only suggestion I have about your loads right now is to examine your loading process to find out whether you're doing something to contaminate the primers. That is very difficult if the foil seal over the priming compound is not broken. |
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Posted: 9/6/2010 7:42:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Sounds to me like those "bad" rounds weren't resized all the way/shoulder not bumped back all the way. Wouldn't fire because bolt was actually not fully in battery. This is indicated by the fact that you could not easily un-chamber these rounds.
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Posted: 9/6/2010 8:28:14 PM EDT
[#27]
I guess I'm thoroughly confused. Sounds like the OP believes the primer was hit in a fashion suitable to make the round go off. He is also sure there was powder in the case. If there was powder in the case, and the round did not go off then I am in agreement with the folks who think the case was improperly sized and not fully chambered.
jonblack |
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Posted: 9/7/2010 7:30:55 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
I guess I'm thoroughly confused. Sounds like the OP believes the primer was hit in a fashion suitable to make the round go off. He is also sure there was powder in the case. If there was powder in the case, and the round did not go off then I am in agreement with the folks who think the case was improperly sized and not fully chambered. jonblack I'm confused too. I don't know if the primer was struck hard enough to make the round go off, I just know there was a mark from the firing pin. I'm going to go w/ the theory they were not sized right and the bolt was out of battery. Thanks guys, sorry for the confusion. |
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Posted: 9/7/2010 7:32:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Regardless of the other problems you need to stop using Remington 6 1/2 primers for full pressure .223 Rem loads. Take a good look at the packaging. You'll find a warning that these primers should be used for cartridges with pressures similar to .22 Hornet, about 40000 psi CUP maximum. Here's the good news - these primers can be used in .223 Rem, but you need to find load data that shows chamber pressures 40000 psi or less. The only suggestion I have about your loads right now is to examine your loading process to find out whether you're doing something to contaminate the primers. That is very difficult if the foil seal over the priming compound is not broken. Well hell. What happens if I use these in full power .223 rounds? Is it dangerous? Because I have another 150-200 rounds w/ them already in. |
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Posted: 9/7/2010 8:06:25 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: Regardless of the other problems you need to stop using Remington 6 1/2 primers for full pressure .223 Rem loads. Take a good look at the packaging. You'll find a warning that these primers should be used for cartridges with pressures similar to .22 Hornet, about 40000 psi CUP maximum. Here's the good news - these primers can be used in .223 Rem, but you need to find load data that shows chamber pressures 40000 psi or less. The only suggestion I have about your loads right now is to examine your loading process to find out whether you're doing something to contaminate the primers. That is very difficult if the foil seal over the priming compound is not broken. Well hell. What happens if I use these in full power .223 rounds? Is it dangerous? Because I have another 150-200 rounds w/ them already in. You beat me to it. I noticed that he was using Rem 6 1/2 primers and thought that might be the problem. If it were me I would pull all those rounds and start over. Try Rem 7 1/2 CCI 400, 450, BR4, or pretty much any other SRP. The 6 1/2 is not a good primer for .223. |
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Posted: 9/7/2010 8:11:13 AM EDT
[#31]
Look at the rounds you already fired. Did they have any pierced primers? Was anything else weird about the way the primers looked?
Look in your loading manual and find out what the pressure is supposed to be for your particular charge/bullet weight combo.It won't be end-all-be-all data but it will give you an idea how far outside of range you are. Keep in mind some pressures are listed in CUP and some PSI. Finally, you can always get an inertia bullet puller and pull the rounds down and reload with proper primers. I know you don't want to hear that but others will come along and say the same thing. Then again, others may come along and tell you to shoot the bad boys. jonblack |
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Posted: 9/7/2010 8:23:08 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Look at the rounds you already fired. Did they have any pierced primers? Was anything else weird about the way the primers looked? Look in your loading manual and find out what the pressure is supposed to be for your particular charge/bullet weight combo.It won't be end-all-be-all data but it will give you an idea how far outside of range you are. Keep in mind some pressures are listed in CUP and some PSI. Finally, you can always get an inertia bullet puller and pull the rounds down and reload with proper primers. I know you don't want to hear that but others will come along and say the same thing. Then again, others may come along and tell you to shoot the bad boys. jonblack I didn't even know there were different primers for different pressure levels, outside of large/small/magnum. What is the difference? What could have happened w/ the ones I already shot that had the 6 1/2 in them? I dodn't notice any primers that looked out of the ordinary and didn't see any that were pierced. What else should I look for? Thanks for the heads up and the info, sorry to be asking so many bonehead questions. |
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Posted: 9/7/2010 8:30:23 AM EDT
[#33]
The cartridges you already loaded might be okay to shoot since your load is about 2 grains less than maximum. If you don't have pierced primers so far, I don't think I would worry about it too much. However, I wouldn't bump the powder charge up with those primers.
Another lesson you can take away from this session is the folly of loading up hundreds of cartridges before testing the load. 20 or 30 cartridges are much easier to break down than 150 or more! I don't think we're going to solve your misfire problem unless we can get you hooked up with someone to help you face to face. |
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Posted: 9/7/2010 11:31:19 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Unfired loaded cases that will not extract, that's because they were not sized enough before loading. There's another reason for possible jammed rounds that I've experienced. After adequately resizing the case, priming it, charging it, and seating a bullet, I have "over crimped". I was using a standard Lee crimp die in .223 and had it screwed in way too far. For those that have used them, Lee rifle crimp dies adjust the degree of crimp based on how high or low the die is in the toolhead. What happened is that the collet grabs the case mouth to crimp it. It then holds the case while the ram is still pushing the case upwards. That pressure has to go somewhere, and in my situation, it flared the case slightly where the shoulder meets the body. In addition to using a case gauge to set my sizing die, I also use it as a test gauge to ensure my completed cartridges are within spec. It should also be mentioned that a cartridge with an excessive OAL can cause sticky extraction, as can dirty or burred chambers. WRT to excessive OAL, on the AR platform, such rounds usually won't fit in the magazine. |
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Posted: 9/8/2010 8:30:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Look at the rounds you already fired. Did they have any pierced primers? Was anything else weird about the way the primers looked? Look in your loading manual and find out what the pressure is supposed to be for your particular charge/bullet weight combo. It won't be end-all-be-all data but it will give you an idea how far outside of range you are. Keep in mind some pressures are listed in CUP and some PSI. Finally, you can always get an inertia bullet puller and pull the rounds down and reload with proper primers. I know you don't want to hear that but others will come along and say the same thing. Then again, others may come along and tell you to shoot the bad boys. jonblack I didn't even know there were different primers for different pressure levels, outside of large/small/magnum. What is the difference? What could have happened w/ the ones I already shot that had the 6 1/2 in them? I didn't notice any primers that looked out of the ordinary and didn't see any that were pierced. What else should I look for? Thanks for the heads up and the info, sorry to be asking so many bonehead questions. Don't worry about asking questions. We want to help you share our hobby safely. When you get a chance, go up to Tutorials and read the 4 part "loading 223" tutorial. A quick read of the FAQ's will also be beneficial. One thing on the firing pin mark on the unfired case, every chambered case has this, because of the floating firing pin on an AR. Next time at the range, chamber a round then unload it. See the light strike on the primer? This is another reason that the primer cup thickness is important in 223. Keep at it, sometimes you learn easy, other times not so much. But you will get there. 
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