Does it really jam as much as everyone says it does? ? ?

Not that I'm a M2 guru, but from what I have seen in the mil, poor maint combined with old parts=runs like shit.





Of M2s I have seen  not run , It has always been a "old guy" that looks at it, spots the problem and fixes it and then it runs.  





A lot of the knowledge in the support units has been lost, and with most machines, knowing their likes/dislike goes farther than reading the TM





 

My unit had lots of feeding problems with the M2 we shelved them for our m240B

From my Infantry experience, 95% of the problems associated with ma duece involve improper timing or headspace. USE THE PROPER TOOL TO DO THIS. FAILURE TO DO THIS CAN RESULT IN THE DESTRUCTION OF YOUR M2 AND WORSE, YOU. I have personally seen someone blow up an M2 by not setting the headspace and timing, because he/they were too bullheaded to listien to people who were telling to them(don't let a leutenant anywhere near your 50 cal) Every M2/barrel combination has a slightly different "sweet spot". If you headspace your M2, and you cant get it to pass the timing, you're going to have to adjust the timing inside the reciever. If I was looking at one, I could show you how to do it, but since I'm not, consult the proper TM before you do this. If you keep playing with it, eventually it will pass the go/no-go timing gauges. If you may still need to adjust it some to get it to cycle like it should. Like I said, every 50, that is still serviceable, has a "sweet spot" you just have to find it.

"don't let a leutenant anywhere near your 50 cal..."   It's "lieutenant," jerkoff, and if they are anywhere near  near the MOS that concerns the M2, they understand headspace and timing...  it's an intelligence thing, son...  intelligence + training will get the job done, in spite of your smartassed assessment of anyone senior to you in rank.

They are senior to you in rank until you decide to do what's necessary to advance yourself to become senior to them.

Jerkoff.

Hey, look, we found a butter bar

Do you know the difference between a pv2 and an 2LT?

Oh wow!!!!   Listen to this rant.   Anyone remember the first week of Iraqi Freedom with the .50 M2 gunner who almost wore his arm out racking that operating lever after every one or two shots?  I do.   This guy didnt have his gun set up to run right.

Hey before you get your panties all in a bunch, I am no longer in the Army. 9 1/2 years and 4 combat tours as an Infantryman(MOS 11B if you're lost), was enough for me, so I got out. I was a squad leader my last tour, so I'm not just some dirtbag spec-4 with an attitude.

The incident I described actually happened. The 2LT that was my PL for most of my 3rd tour was out at the "range" at our patrol base with some support personell who were supposed to be trained on the M2. Rather than set the headspace, he just cranks the barrel into the receiver, not even counting the clicks, despite a couple NCOs, myself included trying to stop him from proceeding. I went to get the headspace gauge, but before I could get back with it, another guy(who should've known better) with this LT looking on, attempted to fire the M2, which promptly exploded. We had to medevac the guy actually shooting as the back end of the case embeded itself in his thigh.

Endstate: We had to ground medevac a soldier, which in turn required taking a risking a whole patrol to take him to the nearest real aid station a couple miles away. All of this because some cherry officer was trying to show off for some REMFs.

So unless this guy was asleep on &*()ing .50 cal day, he obviously wasn't trained before he showed up, and evidently "had more important things to do" when we were training everyone in the platoon. Yeah intelligence and training, which that LT had neither.

Usually, new LTs are extremely inexperienced. The good ones realize this, AND LISTEN TO THEIR NCOs. The bad ones don't, and this is the sort of thing that happens, or worse and someone gets killed. Yeah asshole, think about that a second. It's not just about career advancement these days. There is a war on, and if you make a bad decision, it results in Mrs Smith gettting a letter from DOD stating her 18 year old son is going home in a box. Too many leaders, officers in particular in my experience, forget this. That's why I got out. I accept the fact that my men and myself are ultimately expendable, but we're not THAT damn expendable. From the sound of things, YOU are part of the problem.

PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE WHY WE'RE LOSING THE F*&KING WAR

Mace, I read your original comment and could tell there was a story behind it.  Thanks for sharing yours.  I too was f'ed over on my last overseas tour, the biggest issue were the guys looking for advancment.  The rest of use struggled to save the Fing day by doing our jobs, AND THEIRS.  Everyone came home safe but way to many hurt feelings.

Yeh im commissioning in the Marines soon... But noted thanks for the replies guys...

I asked because i have seen videos on the range where the M2 worked flawlessly but while in Astan or Iraq I have notices soldiers and Marines needing to re-rack them time ad time again... I would imagine this could be a big problem if your ambushed or getting shot at.

Actually, I'm too old to help lose that war.   I served enlisted in the 508th in the early Sixties, went back to college, and went through OCS at  Quantico (Army standards had gone to hell by 1967, except for a few units), was an infantry platoon and company commander in Viet Nam.   So I've been on both sides of the desk.  It's so easy to point out a mistake, and overlook the pressure that command, and as you remarked, the responsibility for your mens' lives, entails, while at the same time remembering that the mission comes first.

Point is, if you could have done a better job, you should have volunteered for OCS.   But it's lots easier to make snide remarks than to put yourself through the grinder, isn't it.

really





you don't even know the guy and you throw that out?



ETA you said that to a vet of the VN fiasco???



WTF? you need to apologize for acting like a mad teenager





 

I at one point I wanted to go to OCS. That changed after tour#3. I realized that there was no way I would get anywhere because, I'm sorry, I'm not going to keep my mouth shut if we're doing something that NEEDLESSLY puts men's life at risk, which is what was happening on a regular basis. Believe me, I got it, the mission comes first, but let me ask you this: If you know what you're doing is not going to accomplish anything, and your people are at risk to do so and probably going to get hurt or killed, what do you do?

Let me give you an example: My platoon was sent out last May(on tour #4) on a "patrol" to hand out radios to the Afghan locals. We already knew they were using these radios to make IEDs, which we had already had several people hurt from. The only reason we were doing this is because our battalion leadership decreed that each platoon had what in esscense was a patrol quota. I was told later that the truck I was in ran over 60lbs of home made explosive. 5 of the 8 guys in the vehicle got medevaced, most of which were either in my squad, or guys that had been for over a year. All those guys got jacked up on a patrol to do nothing. And then later when my unit caught the guy who did it, he was in custody 48 hours, AND THEN LET GO.

As an officer all I would have been was 1 guy trying to fix things, and all that would've happened was I would have been ostricized, and put behind a desk. Which these days as an officer, you spend most of your time behind a desk.

See my point? Back when this thing started it wasn't like that, that's why I stuck around as long as I did. But it has become way too personal for me. I knew way too many guys who didn't come back, or who were seriously hurt for it not to be. That's was another big reason I got out.

Look, I don't mean to be all offensive to you, especially since you served. But don't jump to conclusions about me, or why I see things the way I do without knowing why I have those views.

So to the OP: Since you're about the become an officer, be a good one. Those NCOs that will be your platoon sergeants and squad leaders have a lot of real world experience, SO LISTEN TO THEM. There is a reason they're there. I don't know how it works in the marines, but it the Army, you're only going to have command of those troops for a little while, usually less than 18 months. Those Soldiers/Marines and NCOs are going to be in that platoon for at least twice as long as you are, and ultimately they're going to live with the ramifications of your decisions much longer than you are. Just keep that in mind. Yeah it's your career, but it's their lives.

Hey dude, you need to read the whole thread.

Getting back on track here with the original ?'s, from what I see causes a M2 to run poor is a combination of things.  Right off the bat is poor headspace and timing procedures, or lack thereof.  Next, is parts reversed such as with the breech lock.  This will destroy a bolt within a few rds, if it lasts that long.  I've seen M2's from WW2, Colt, Kelsey-Hays, Frigidaire.....and some of the latest such as General Dynamics.  Usually most problems can be fixed by checking closely when disassembly or assembling the weapon, proper headspace and timing, and proper lube, if needed.  Hope this helps.

The M2 is great, the problem is old guns and damn cherries that don't know how to set the headspace and timing

It seems every jackass screws the barrel in and thinks that backing off two clicks is good.

If the would use the h/t guage it would be fine.

BTW if the NCO's are doing their job no LT should be touching the gun, if he is on the gun he better be the last man standing.

And the NCO should be showing him how to do it, not the other way around.

FREE

I remember something my dad told me after reading your posts.
He was a Navy CB Master Chief with time in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam.
He told me it took an NCO to get it to work and an officer to fuck it up.

Likely a stupid question but what is head space and timing ?

Headspace is the distance between the face of the bolt and the base of the cartridge case, fully seated in the chamber. Timing is the adjustment of the gun so that firing takes place when the recoiling parts are in the correct position for firing.

IC... but with all this knowledge you enlisted guys have why do i see the majority of clips online where the M2 jams? ? ? No time to clean them or what? To me they seem unreliable.

US Ordanace has been working for some time now on a quick change barrel system for the M2.  Another benefit to this system other than the ability to quickly change the barrel is that it is a fixed head space eliminating the timing issues as well as the need for the tools!

Really neat idea it's a wonder no one has thought about this before!

FN Mfg has had that option for some time now, the quick change barrel.  Why the US hasn't looked into modifying all of their M2's is beyond me.  It definitely would be worth the $$$$$$ needed, and would save a good many M2's from getting blown up because of piss poor training, and lack of caring to boot.

The way it should work

At least they found out that something was wrong.
If I had been the guy behind the trigger on that weapon, not sure whether I would have crapped my pants or fell off of the vehicle laughing.

Late to the party I know but if I may interject some commentary as an armorer...

In my experience with the M2 it is, as has been mentioned, mostly a HS&T issue that causes problems along with poor or incorrect maintenance. There are something along the lines of 100 (easily gotten to) parts in a M2 and a failure of any of them can dick up the works. The most common mechanical issue that causes problems is an out of spec or mal-adjusted cam followed by bad, bent, or out of spec top covers.

I would personally take a 1945 manufactured Fridgedare or Savage over a NIB General Dynamics gun any day of the week without question. You see, since their original inception in the 1920's they have been constantly re-engineered and tolerances opened and changed. For instance if memory serves the allowable space between the receiver and top cover latch originally was something like .008 and now it's .020". That kind of stuff leaves a lot to be desired. A M2 like many fine old machines needs to be a little loosie-goosie to work right and the GD guns just don't have that nor do they have the TLC put into them like the older guns do.

Working on a M2 IMHO is just as much art and finesse as it is by the book science. Take the cams for instance; if you adjust a cam to be 100% in spec by the book that gun may or may not run right. I've seen guns that were WAAAY out of book tolerance but ran like raped apes because the armorer found the sweet spot. If you get the “old guy” to make them run it’s because he’s gotten a feel for the gun and the parts.

Anyway, that’s enough of that crap. To keep them running here are some tips…
#1 HS&T using the damn tools in the BII kit not a dime and a dog tag or whatever else
#2 Lube them PER THE TM!!!
#3 DO NOT SLAM THE TOP COVERS SHUT! They are heavy and the drive levers are heavy and gravity does it’s thing in short order and a top cover that is bent as little as .010” out of square will cause the gun to stop feeding.
#4 When cleaning, inspect the gun PER THE TM. I’ve had guns come in for maintenance that were beyond broken because the proper PMCS wasn’t done and problems got exacerbated. If you find a problem tell the armorer; if they are any good they’ll get it fixed before it quits.
#5 CLP does not cure everything. I watched a SNCO with an out of time gun squirt Breakfree into the gun after every 2-3 rounds (when it quit) because he felt it just wasn’t wet enough. Never mind the stream of oil pissing out the bottom. I’d have told him to stop but seeing him come off the Hummer black from the waist up was worth it.

So endeth the sermon.

Maybe if they were rebuilt they would be ok. I always left mine in the arms room, and took an M240B instead for missions. Other than a smaller round(Obviously) a WAY better weapon system. I called it my belt fed sniper rifle, as I mounted an ACOG to the top, and could easily hit point targets at 800 meters all day.

I've owned my Savage M2 (single digit serial number) for 15 years and have never had
a non ammunition related stoppage.

Joe O

To be fair though how often do you mount it to a MRAP and roll over hill and dale in BF Afghanistan? Just being mounted puts a lot of strain on those weapons, far more than you'd think it would. One of the things that codes .50's out most often is loose rivets, after that is bent side plates from the aforementioned DH who thinks they know how to headspace it w/o a gauge.

I am a current M2 gunner, and I am an armorer.  I can echo most of the sentiments that have been previously stated.  Timing more than headspace kills alot of the joes in our unit.  They can do the headspace, but they dont know how to find the center of the timing, while resetting it.

Lubrication.  They need to be wet.  Thats all there is too it.  

If you get those two things right, then they weapon works great.  My M2 was orginally produced in Dec of 1984 (about 5 months after I was).  I swear by this weapon.

As far as jamming goes, Between taking this weapon through MOB, 2 3 week AT's, and 5 months of deployment, my weapon has not jammed once.  It has run sluggishly once, and that was shortly after we got in country and I recieved the weapon back from the higher maintaince shop.  They had knocked my timing off 2 clicks, still passed the gauge, but it wasnt right.  

The other big mistake I see soldiers have with this weapon system is a lack of respect.  This weapon can kill you if not maintained and set up properly.  If it is firing single shot (or 2) on auto, STOP, take it down, redo the timing.  If it still wont fire right, then its time to send it up.  Dont let PVTs or brand new 2LT's take them down further than they are supposed to.  There are lots of little springs that need to get put back in the right place.  I can say however, we got lucky with out LT, he was an E7 when he comissioned and he can do things with that 50 that I couldnt even dream of.  Not all officers have no clue.  Officers and NCOs can both be guilty of not knowing what they are doing, and charging ahead anyways.

I'd agree with you about the timing hurting a lot of the guns as far as running right. I think I just got caught in the mindset of what causes them to break hard rather than just not work or jam up. I can also agree that they need to be run with more lube than the average gun but I don't know that I'd call it "wet". Again, I said that they should be lubed IAW TM and by that I mean CLP and or maybe LSAT. I had a gunner bring one to me that was slathered in grease... as in "Grease Automotive and Artillery" in the grease gun cartridges. It was autumn in Afghanistan and he couldn't understad why his gun wasn't working.

In any case the bottom line is if you take care of the guns correctly they do run. If they were unreliable we wouldn't have been using them for the past 80-90 years almost unchanged.