Just checking if there are any forums for us Lar Grizzly owners.  

www.fcsa.org  Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association.  Best $40 I ever spent on my 50.

-David
Edgewood, NM

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Quoted: www.fcsa.org  Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association.  Best $40 I ever spent on my 50. -David Edgewood, NM

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+2

... or I could just build you one.  

Quoted: www.fcsa.org  Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association.  Best $40 I ever spent on my 50. -David Edgewood, NM

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-1

Dont mind Orkan folks. He got a little bit out of line (being nice here). And was warned several times to "cool it". He continued and the powers to be over at FCSA finally banned him. Hence the reason he gave a "-1"

there are several of us who support both AR15 and FCSA. And if in doubt about what I am saying, just ask out loud and I am sure that someone else will back my statement. As far as I can see, the folks over on FCSA are for the most part (98%) and nice group of guys and gals. Yes the dues are a bit more, but you also get a quarterly magazine packed with good stuff to read. And a forum filled with good topics to boot.

Their niche is 50 BMG and those people are serious about shooting long range with big guns. But do know how to have fun too. It's just a shame that Orkan could not play nice over there. His actions became like a new kid on the block that was going to become the block king overnight. Needless to say that he rubbed a few people the wrong way, to many times. Orkan you could have been a good asset but you came on to strong. So, both sides loose now.

Max

50_Shooter:

Like you say, no reason to start a board war but Nick Mull was not without guilt in the whole Camp Perry scenario.  The guy he was dealing with in FCSA is a bit on the stubborn side but Nick is also pretty hard headed.  Good deal for him to start up more eastern matches.  I applaud him for that.  But there's no clear Saint in the Camp Perry debacle, by any means.  Life just isn't that cut and dried...And yes I know a bit about this because i've discussed it in person with Nick and some FCSA folks that were directly involved.

Sorry to hear you left the club.  The reason you cite for leaving is very similar to what happens hear.  Certain folks are allowed to continue to post BS while others are censored.  Moderating and administering a forum is a thankless job and you can't catch everything but  in my short experience on ARF, i've found the moderation not to always be neutral.  Everyone has their predispositions, myself included.

Be glad to have you back in FCSA any time.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Never thought I would see myself agreeing with 50cal, but I support his statement 100%.

I was abused at length by a couple of knuckle heads on a regular basis.  Nothing was ever done.  The second randy thought I was being paid to advertise bohica's stuff... (which I am not) I was blackballed.  He outright called me a liar, and I wouldnt back down (because I stand my ground when my character is under fire) so I got banned.  Oh well.  No skin off my ass.  If I had it to do over again, I'd have done it exactly the same way.  I do not stand for people abusing my character, I don't care WHO they think they are or what their position is.  I have truth and justice on my side.

FCSA is a good organization from what I've heard.  The members forum is a complete waste of time in my opinion.  Either you are a fanboy, and do whatever you are told... or they show you the hatch.  

I like the VHP magazine, and the price you pay as a member is probably worth just getting that magazine.  

I probably sent 10+ new members to that association in a months time, but because I wasn't one of the "good ol' boys" it meant nothing.  So, now they can kiss my brown eye.  All randy had to do was stop calling me a liar... and I would have shut down and backed away.  He wouldn't.  So now they have me as enemy #1.

VHP Magazine... Best reading for a new shooter.  Other than that... the FCSA has a HELL OF A LOT to learn about how they treat their customers.

Quoted: Never thought I would see myself agreeing with 50cal, but I support his statement 100%. I was abused at length by a couple of knuckle heads on a regular basis.  Nothing was ever done.  The second randy thought I was being paid to advertise bohica's stuff... (which I am not) I was blackballed.  He outright called me a liar, and I wouldnt back down (because I stand my ground when my character is under fire) so I got banned.  Oh well.  No skin off my ass.  If I had it to do over again, I'd have done it exactly the same way.  I do not stand for people abusing my character, I don't care WHO they think they are or what their position is.  I have truth and justice on my side. FCSA is a good organization from what I've heard.  The members forum is a complete waste of time in my opinion.  Either you are a fanboy, and do whatever you are told... or they show you the hatch.   I like the VHP magazine, and the price you pay as a member is probably worth just getting that magazine.   I probably sent 10+ new members to that association in a months time, but because I wasn't one of the "good ol' boys" it meant nothing.  So, now they can kiss my brown eye.  All randy had to do was stop calling me a liar... and I would have shut down and backed away.  He wouldn't.  So now they have me as enemy #1. VHP Magazine... Best reading for a new shooter.  Other than that... the FCSA has a HELL OF A LOT to learn about how they treat their customers.

Orkan:

That's not a fair assessment.  You were WAY out of line and belligerent when called to the carpet about it.  Your attitude on this site speaks volumes.  I actually spoke with Randy about getting you reinstated but you had burned your bridges way too much.  I admitted to Randy that Orkan is a cranky and belligerent SOB but the kid has some good contributions.  That said, he wasn't reinstated.

For all that aren't members of FCSA, there have only been THREE forum members banned EVER!  That's right, only THREE EVER in the history of the forum.  And Mr. Orkan is one of them (number 3).  He violated the FCSA terms of service placing BOHICA ads on the site and then did it again immediately after he was corrected raising hell all the while.

FCSA is a pretty mainstream, no-nonsense, non-militia type of folks that are serious accuracy shooters.  They don't take any garbage.  Glad we still got you over here Orkan.

-David
Edgewood, NM

See and there you go lying too.  

I did NOT PLACE bohica ads on that goddamn site.  PERIOD.

I put up a thread asking people to critique my design work, in the CAFE of all places.  Then put a post up about my own personal mk-II and linked back to photo's I had already posted on the bohica forums.  That is all.  All of this "he has alterior motives" bullshit is more of the same "good ol' boys" treatment.  I got the same bullshit when I tried to get people to put up a "new to fifties" section.  Which eventually happened, but not before I was called an asshole by half of the "good ol' boys" over there for even suggesting a good collection of info for newbies was a good idea.

So you can say what you want... truth and justice is on my side.  Somebody calls me a liar, you are damn straight I'm going to be intolerant of them.  Since this little fiasco, I've found VOLUMES of people that think randy is an asshole.  ... so I don't feel bad.  I am greatful that it happened so that I don't waste my money, or worse yet, referr people to that association.

Someone telling lies about me on this forum... I wont back down either.  I don't care if I get banned over it.  I'm not going to lay in the grass while people lie, and think its OK.  Randy lied through his teeth... plain and simple.  

I didnt put up an ad, I didn't spam the site, I didnt do any of the bullshit he accused me of.  I put up ONE THREAD in the CAFE, asking for truthful advice about my design work, as I do for every single site I create.  Then after that one got deleted, I put up a post about MY OWN PERSONAL Mk-II, and linked to pictures on the bohica forums.

Then I come to find out that LOW AND BEHOLD... RANDY is a DIRECT competitor of Bohica!!!!!  lol

Please.  He's not fooling anybody.  ... and you, David are simply being a fanboy if you are supporting him in that bullshit.  I appreciate your words in my stead, but it was not needed.  Even if that ass un-banned me, I'd never go there again.

Yep.  Everybody is lying but Orkan.  If a big Logo with pictures and website links is not an ad, I don't know what is.

And get real, dude.  Randy is nowhere near a direct competitor of BOHICA.  He builds rifles that cost an average of $6000, custom built match rifles.  They are in no way competitors with the Bohica.

Take a chill pill, dude.  Like I said, good to have you over here.  You keep us awake, especially with that lively vocabulary.

-David
Edgewood, NM

There ya go.  Downplay it and tell the same lie.  

I did not post ads for bohica.  Nor did I post any pictures with a bohica logo.  MONTH prior I did, but those were the same pics I posted HERE.

I never said everybody is lying.  Just you and randy.  But considering what I've seen you post... randy could piss on your face and you'd still be beating the FCSA drum all over the place.

Guess what chief dave, nobody is going to delete my posts over here for asking them to critique my work.  I put the same threads up here and it wasn't a problem.  So you believe what you want... but you are completely delusional if you think I was putting up ads for bohica.  

Unlike some dumbasses, I sit down when I'm wrong... and shut up.  I was NOT wrong over there, and the 15 or so PM's I received from other members supporting me ALSO didn't think I was wrong.  Drink randy's kool aid all you want, but I am not in the minority when it comes to my feelings toward him.

Randy builds .50 cal rifles and he's not a competitor of bohica?  What are you smoking?

Orkan:

I needed a good laugh this morning.  Thanks for providing one...

You really believe that Action Gun Works' $6K McBros-actioned bench guns are a competitor for the $1245 Bohica?  Yeah right.

And you're the one telling the truth.  I don't think you can figure out what truth is.  FCSA's terms of service are a bit different that ARF.  And, the moderators here have been VERY lenient letting ya'll keep that Bohica thread running as a one stop shop for BOHICA information.  I'm sure the administrators would rather Chris pay his share and advertise but they've been kind enough to let it stand.

Have a nice Monday, man.  Mine has started off GREAT!

-David
Edgewood, NM

Thats because on arfcom... manufacturers don't have to advertise with them in order for their CUSTOMERS to post stuff about their own rifles that they've purchased.

You can talk all you want but that is exactly what randy told me in a PM.  Even though I was a paying customer of bohica, I could not post links to my pictures on the bohica forum because Chris didn't advertise with FCSA.  But if Chris advertised with FCSA, then I could.

What a joke.

Quoted: Thats because on arfcom... manufacturers don't have to advertise with them in order for their CUSTOMERS to post stuff about their own rifles that they've purchased. You can talk all you want but that is exactly what randy told me in a PM.  Even though I was a paying customer of bohica, I could not post links to my pictures on the bohica forum because Chris didn't advertise with FCSA.  But if Chris advertised with FCSA, then I could. What a joke.

Yeah but Chris and his customers use the massive Bohica thread as a primary communication and marketing tool.  Hey, it's been deemed ok over here so no worries.  Over on FCSA, no joy.  And you didn't post as a BOHICA customer, you posted as a website designer, with links to an advertising website you were PAID to develop.  

Bigtime apples and oranges, man.

Arguing with you is like arguing my wife: there can be no basis for an arguement because there is no logical construct upon which you base you statements.  The blathering just goes on, and on, and on....

Like I said man, chill and have a great Monday!  Mine is looking great!

-David
Edgewood, NM

The bohica thread as a communication tool?  lol

Ive heard it called a lot of things...

I'm sure I am a lot like your wife... I'm sure she lets you think you are right all the time too.

Maybe FCSA should be paying for all the advertising they get here.

Dans was looking for "Forums for Lar Grizzly owners" not a pissing contest.

Maybe he would be better off going to biggerhammer.  While it is not all about LARs it does have some good info.

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I'm not having a contest...

... just pissing. :)

To answer the OP's question, there is not a dedicated LAR Grizzly forum that I am aware of.  I contacted LAR, and they said that they didn't think they would have a full fledged forum anytime soon.  They may have a section where owners can post pictures and leave comments about pictures, but didn't see the need for a forum.

You have to understand that most of these firearm manufacturers are run by some pretty old folks, that aren't very forward thinking, so they really don't understand the benefits of having something like that.  

This Google Search contains a lot of useful info and posts on the LAR on various forums around the net.  

Hopefully that helps. :)

FLASH on this forum has an LAR.  Maybe you could PM him if you want to know more about the rifle.  Otherwise the largest online concentration of LAR owners on the web is at the FCSA members forum, which is why I made the suggestion.

I was considering an LAR Grizzly when I bought my State Arms which is also a shellholder.  To me the nice thing about the Grizzly is the bullpup design that makes it a relatively short rifle to have such a long barrel (36" if I remember but i'm not sure).  Thus it should be a pretty darn fieldable gun.  I didn't select a Grizzly because folks I spoke with said its brake wasn't very efficient and the recoild was fairly stiff but i've never shot one myself.  I also didn't like that it uses a slightly modified Harris Bipod when the State Arms, Ferrett, and ALS have 50-specific bipods.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Quoted: 50_Shooter: Like you say, no reason to start a board war but Nick Mull was not without guilt in the whole Camp Perry scenario.  The guy he was dealing with in FCSA is a bit on the stubborn side but Nick is also pretty hard headed.  Good deal for him to start up more eastern matches.  I applaud him for that.  But there's no clear Saint in the Camp Perry debacle, by any means.  Life just isn't that cut and dried...And yes I know a bit about this because i've discussed it in person with Nick and some FCSA folks that were directly involved. Be glad to have you back in FCSA any time. -David Edgewood, NM

Ya gotta love it!

Well David, at this time I would like to ask you to provide all proof and documentation you have to support your position of my "guilt" as you have indicated in the above post in regards to Camp Perry.

Having recently having lunch with the Col. that is the base commander as well as 3 other top officials at Camp Perry working out the details for the upcoming season the North Coast Shooters Association, Ltd and Camp Perry will be working on together.

It is apparent that our mission of promoting the shooting sports through hard work and actions promoting more places to shoot is not tha same goals as you share when you have chosen to be-smirch anothers name with information that is not accurate or true.

We gun owners are at times are own worst enemy when it comes to tossing someone under the bus on un-proven or un-documented rumors.

David, you were not involved in any of the negotiations that were between the FCSA and myself. However, I have called this post to the attention of a FCSA BoD member who was involved. I believe we would all like to know what your source of information is and proof and documentation in regards to my "guilt" as you have put it.

Nick Mullet

Quoted: Quoted: 50_Shooter: Like you say, no reason to start a board war but Nick Mull was not without guilt in the whole Camp Perry scenario.  The guy he was dealing with in FCSA is a bit on the stubborn side but Nick is also pretty hard headed.  Good deal for him to start up more eastern matches.  I applaud him for that.  But there's no clear Saint in the Camp Perry debacle, by any means.  Life just isn't that cut and dried...And yes I know a bit about this because i've discussed it in person with Nick and some FCSA folks that were directly involved. Be glad to have you back in FCSA any time. -David Edgewood, NM Ya gotta love it! Well David, at this time I would like to ask you to provide all proof and documentation you have to support your position of my "guilt" as you have indicated in the above post in regards to Camp Perry. Having recently having lunch with the Col. that is the base commander as well as 3 other top officials at Camp Perry working out the details for the upcoming season the North Coast Shooters Association, Ltd and Camp Perry will be working on together. It is apparent that our mission of promoting the shooting sports through hard work and actions promoting more places to shoot is not tha same goals as you share when you have chosen to be-smirch anothers name with information that is not accurate or true. We gun owners are at times are own worst enemy when it comes to tossing someone under the bus on un-proven or un-documented rumors. David, you were not involved in any of the negotiations that were between the FCSA and myself. However, I have called this post to the attention of a FCSA BoD member who was involved. I believe we would all like to know what your source of information is and proof and documentation in regards to my "guilt" as you have put it. Nick Mullet

Nick:

My discussions with you on the week of 4 July 2007 are the evidence to which I refer.  You stated that you would not reveal your contact at Camp Perry to the FCSA match director.  YOU told me.  That is contrary to FCSA SOP.  Plain and simple.  And the person I talked to that had knowledge of the other side...lets just say I'M not revealing MY contact.

I met you face to face.  You are a hard headed gentleman and seriously into the cloak and dagger stuff of not revealing your contacts as to do so would put you out of a position of power.  Of course that is your right.  None of this is heresay.  It was clear after about 20 minutes of talking to you at Raton.

And as I have said before, several times, I applaud you for your establishment of additional matches. That's wonderful.  But FCSA folks do not bear all the guilt for the Camp Perry Match fiasco.  Your stubbornness and unwillingness to reveal your source is equally to blame.  In most disagreements, rarely is one party 100% in the wrong.

By the way, thanks for the primers you were selling at Raton last year.  Looks like you're doing that again this year in NCSA.  I appreciate your service to the sport.

-David
Edgewood, NM

lmfao

I feel like I just walked into the middle of a movie.  This should be good.



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David,

The internal business contacts of the NCSA are just that. If you or anyone else wishs to develop your own contacts by all means do so. But again, Camp Perry fiasco? Somewhere I missed that one. Camp Perry was a huge success with 25 competitors 44 guns entered.

The match went smoothly as planned despite the hinderence of others. So you are laying fault and blame for what? The fact that the Camp Perry was a success? I delivered to everyone EXACTLY what I said I was going to do. In the manner I said I was going to. I never once agreed to give up my military contacts to anyone in the beginning or at the end.  Nor was it demanded in the beginning when I agreed to make Camp Perry a reality for .50 caliber shooting.

The matches that are being put on here now in the east have the same conditions as before. The same conditions that Quantico runs under as well. Per the folks running the match. The FCSA decides who they wish to business with the same as I decide who I wish to do business with.

Have you ever wondered how I am able to produce matches at these bases when others cannot?  It is because I am trusted. I would not be trusted if I were to pass out names and numbers.  Fort Drum should be finalized next week and Fort Dix soon after if all goes well.


Nick

so where can the LAR Grizzly owner find a forum of there own to chat about?????

think this topic is A LITTLE of topic

Quoted: I feel like I just walked into the middle of a movie.  This should be good. www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif -1

I want to see something git waid!

50_Shooter brought this one off topic, if you'll look back at the progress of the thread.

Nick, like i've said, if you would read my posts prior ot responding to them, kudos for developing new matches.  I'VE NEVER SAID I WANTED TO START NEW MATCHES.  I've got three a year within a few hours of me in Raton and more in Texas if I want to drive a bit further.

The Camp Perry fiasco as I call it is the breakdown between you and FCSA that resulted in the creation of the NCSA.  That's it.  Very simple.  Kinda like the split between LDS and the FLDS or between a couple Baptist churches every few years.  Somebody wants to do something different so they start their own offshoot....

Anyway, happy shooting.

-David
Edgewood, NM

David and all,

The FCSA is a great club, there is no doubt about it. Could it be better? Yes it could. Its not as clicky as Orkan states, but there is an element of eliteness that needs flushed out.

The Nick/Camp Perry issue is only fully known to a few, and I am one of them that was right in the middle trying to save that match. The original problem comes down to this; the match was sanctoned and published and at the point that Nick was getting a second match going on a military base (Fort Knox) the brakes were put on the whole thing. The issue of contact info was requested after Nick asked for help with insurance. Help was refused and contact info was demanded. To change a deal after it has been made is DISHONORABLE.

The only reason NCSA was formed was so that Nick could get the insurance that the military DEMANDED before the match was approved. While this was part of the friction between Nick and the FCSA, it was blown out of proportion. FCSA doesnt run matches and thus has no insurance. There was no other way to skin the cat.

I will agree that Nick can be hard headed, but I support him for sticking to his guns. The underlying issue is that, and it seems to be true, some in the FCSA have issue with my desire to make 50 cal matches more available to all of the members both east and west, include short range matches in the schedule and that all members be treated equally and fairly. I brought Nick into the inner circle of the FCSA with Thunder Valley and have paid dearly ever since.

While rumors abound and people like to flap thier gums, the truth always will come to the top. I have on several occasions asked for proof of what many claim had happen at Camp Perry and all of the other surrounding events. Let me restate, I DEMANDED proof from those who did indeed OWE it to me. I never get a reply. I am an elected member of the board of directors of the FCSA and have been treated like a second rate citizen because I have always stood for what was right and have made every attempt to grow the sport.

In my years of being a manufacture I have always listened to my customers. The one thing that they all would like is more shooting closer to them. Many if not most are in the east, and the same can be said about the membership of the FCSA. Nick has a talent and skill to get 50 shooters in on military ranges. He has a growing number of bases that have been secured to be used. No one in or out of the FCSA has been able to do this before. At some point folks need to see that when you are handed a gift as large and grand as this, it is better to not look it in the mouth. The looseres here are the FCSA membership, and for that I apologize. I have done as much as I could, at my own expense, to make this happen for those who elected me, and I failed. I am one of a long string of very good people in the 50 cal industry that made the effort to only have the air let out of our tires near the end of our term. It is a pattern that needs to stop because the ones that are suffering from it are the people who pay thier hard earned dues, the members.

For this topic to get hashed out on this board is wrong. Now that the cat is out of the bag, I felt like I needed to throw my two cents in. David, I like you and I think you are an asset to the club. Please dont get pulled into this issue. While you may have been given a partly true story, I can tell that you lack some of the facts that make all of this make sense. I know who your source is, and the trouble is he doesnt have all of the facts. All of the bogus stories are coming from a couple people. They wind you guys up, point them in Nick's or my direction and sit back and laugh. You, Nick, I and everyone else do not deserve that at all.

The bottom line here is, Nick is still offering the matches to FCSA for sanctioning. Do the contact info mean that much when it is not asked of other matches. Yes, the info of where and when are needed as well as some other details, but not at the level they are asking of Nick. I reviewed the reasons that Nick has refused to give all his contacts in the military (this is what they really want and have refused all other offers) and it has very sound reason. It is time for the others, those who are refusing to work with Nick, to answer some questions.

Dave

That is the most reasonable post I have read concerning the FCSA.

Damn shame that the rest of the "posse" over there on the members forum don't act like you Dave.  If they did... I might not be gunning for the FCSA so hard.  (and I will continue to do so)

That "eliteness" you spoke about affects a lot more new members than you realize.  You have about a 50/50 ratio going right now.  Half the people I've talked to hate the good ol' boys club mentality... the other half have never experienced it or are a part of it.  The ONLY THINGS driving your membership is the matches and the VHP magazine.

Due to one of your people, I am steering as many people away from the FCSA as possible.  If one guy can screw things up that bad, then it isn't much of an "association" at all... but rather an elitist club.

I am not unreasonable.  All it would take is for the FCSA to publicly acknowledge that I was NOT advertising for bohica and that my threads on the members forum were exactly what I stated them to be: A honest attempt to get the opinions of people in the industry in regard to my design efforts and SECONDLY that my other post was simply me showing off my OWN rifle.  

Y'all got some major problems over there... and until I have a reason to lay down... one of them is named Orkan.

Since we're off topic...

Quoted: Half the people I've talked to hate the good ol' boys club mentality... the other half have never experienced it or are a part of it.  The ONLY THINGS driving your membership is the matches and the VHP magazine.

I guess I'm one who has never experienced the good 'ol boys club mentality.  I've always felt completely welcome on their forum, and I've only been there several months.  I'm yet to attend a match or even meet any of them in person, but I see a lot of hospitality.  

And for me, it isn't the matches or the magazine that keep me there.  It's the forums.  If anybody knows of a better source of .50BMG information than there, I'd love to hear about it.  

Orkan - As far as my views on what happened with you over there, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.  It doesn't matter what I think about it, and to me, it is over and done with.  I appreciate you starting the FAQ section, which I think turned out to be great.  It could be refined a bit, but it is an excellent collection of information.  
It's too bad for everyone that you and the FCSA can't coexist.  

Quoted: It's too bad for everyone that you and the FCSA can't coexist.

indeed.

TeamFerret:

Thanks for your clarifying post.  However, no one is "winding me up and pointing me toward Nick."  50_Shooter brought this issue up and i'll not let it go unanswered.   However, when I hear the "I support Nick 100%" and "FCSA is a bunch of good-ole-boys" statements I get pissed.  I met Nick at Raton last year and what he told me gave me the creeps.  I stand by that there are hard-headed folks on both sides, both convinced they are right.  I certainly wouldn't argue that John K. is an open-minded sort.  His arbitrary rule interpretation banning putting a small square of plywood under one's monopod made my record strings much slower in WC 2007.  But one guy being 100% right and other folks being 100% wrong is garbage in most cases and my personal discussion with Nick largely contributes to why I believe he is partially to blame.  Also, Nick reportedly threatened to SUE a friend of mine for something said on a forum (not this one).  That's just ludicrous.  If you support the 2nd Amendment, you've got to support the other NINE, including the 1st.  

Threats of legal action for slander or libel are a cop-out when one is losing an argument.  A certain individual on this board actually threatened legal action against me last week and I have no question of the inspiration of that threat.  Folks have said plenty of disparaging remarks about me on this forum and they are welcome to their opinion.  I won't be threatening to sue, even though my best friend is an attorney.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Did someone say LAR Grizzly?

Quoted: Did someone say LAR Grizzly?

Somewhere in there or in a PM I remember suggesting the gentleman with the LAR PM you for more info on the gun.  I'm almost certain you have one...

-David
Edgewood, NM

I think I might sue you if he doesn't.