Can someone tell me what the gong price should be on a registered receiver for an M-16?  I have seen Sendra and Colt receivers, but not much else.  I am looking to buy one and want to make sure I am paying the right price.  If I read the law correctly, that is all I need to legally build a full-auto M-16.

You should ask in the M16 section, or general class 3.

or you could buy a drop in auto sear. m16 lowers are harder to find than complete rifles and the cost is usually the same with or without the upper. normally they will have a 20" a1 upper unless its an a2 colt(which will command more money due to rarity). the upper normally doesnt affect the price and buyers remove the factory upper and put on something newer with more bells and whistles. then return the gun to stock configuration when they sell it.

edit
$12-20k depending on brand condition & configuration

General Prices are as follows: (and these are for complete guns as you generally never see stripped receivers for sale anymore and the extra bits you get and miniscule in cost compared the value of the receiver but for argument sake, I would say you could pull $500 the prices below for a stripped reciever vs a full gun)

M16A2 Variant = $19K to $25K
M16A1 = $15K to $18K
Group Ind SS = $18 to $20K
Colt AR15 factory auto (613 or 614) = $14K to $17K
Forged Clone (Sendra, Oly, Frankfort) = $11 to $13K
Colt SP1 or A15A2 conversion = $12 to $13K
Cast Clone (Essential Arms) = $10 to 11K
Reweld M16 = $10 to 12K

Conversion Sears:
RDIAS = $17 to $20K
RLL = $6 to $8K

Hope this helps

You will have a hard time finding anything for the minimums listed below.  M16A1 for 15k?  Probably not going to happen.  

Anyways, I don't disagree with your list, just mentioning that the lows are pretty unlikely for some of them.

And I think that your SP1 Conversions are a little low.  I've seen two sell for $14200 (lower only) and $16000 (complete) in the last month.

Semper Fidelis

Not sure why anybody in their right mind would pay 16,000 for a converted SP1 when you can buy a real Colt M16A1 for a couple hundred bucks more than $16K  "on the web price" from a major dealer.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=147719

We have several guns available for immediate transfer. Email for pics.

Colt M16A1 $16,700

or a Colt  conversion for $12,500.

WTS: M16, Colt Conversion NICE $12,500

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=148007


The low end range assumes you do more work than just check ads online.  If you were to start calling dealers and put out WTB posting, I dont think it would be impossible to find an individual to individual deal on a Colt A1 in the 15K range.

Not worth picking nits over.  JB is trying to give a range.  I think he did a good job.  I, too, would not want to spend $16k on a conversion.  But a range is a range.  If you look at the MG price guide website you'll see how large a range exists for each time point.  

Some buyers are more impulsive.  Also, you need to factor condition into values.  Not all M16A1s are factually NIB.  Serious collectors know the difference and will pay extra for a closet queen.  All this stuff just broadens price ranges.  Not disagreeing with either of you guys, really.    

Sam

Those prices are good.



OP cash is KING, if you want a deal on a MG have the money in your checking acc or in your bill fold and be ready.



I have missed deals by seconds, also made some scores by seconds.
But you need to learn what is what before you spend money.




 

Excellent advice that applies to any collectible.  Timing and knowledge base are linked.  In order to have the confidence to jump on a deal, you absolutely must know the subject matter cold.  This takes time, alot of reading, and alot of examinations of as many examples of whatever firearm you're chasing as possible.  

It's alot of work, and some just don't have the discipline.  So, sometimes at auctions you'll see bids go way over what a knowledgeable collector would pay.  This can give us a false sense of market values; really this was just a collector paying a premium to let someone else do their homework.  This can backfire when an auction house knowingly, or unknowingly, misrepresents an item.  And yes, that happens.  

Sam

Recent well known auction had an Uzi sell for $14k with a bunch of extras (but not that many extras) and a clipped lower MP5 for $24k.   So there is no shortage of people with too much money.  But the prices given above are pretty good estimates.

The M16 market has gone up far and above everything else over the last two years.  Although Thompson's seem to have taken a good bump too.

BTW, what kind of Colt is this, never seen an SP1 with a full fence:

WTS: M16, Colt Conversion NICE $12,500

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=148007

You could email Frank and ask him to be sure.  But my first two guesses, presuming the auction title is not somehow mistaken, would be either an M16 reweld, or an SP1 conversion Colt took back between 2000 and 2002 and did a receiver replacement.  The picture posted on sturm isn't clear enough for me to speculate further.

already sold and Frank didnt answer my questions but instead pointed me to a Sendra for sale...

I think when listing NFA items, the internet must charge $10 a word.  I routinely see $20 items for sale on Craigslist with double the information of most NFA ads selling for thousands of dollars.

I was at that auction. I giggled at the uzi sale. That was nuts. It was two phone bidders that did it. The floor stopped bidding at like $9k.

I think right now is probably not the best time to buy anyways. Sure MG prices are rising, and always will, but I have a feeling after the 2012 scare things will settle down again.

If we were discussing .380 handguns or ammo prices I might agree.  What's happening with 16s right now has less to do with Zero.  First up is the development and, more importantly, the actual production of accessories (like MGI, Shrike, AM15, etc) that increase the appeal of the platform.  Demand on that basis may plateau, but you should not expect to see 16 prices come down.  Second, did we mention inflation?  Wanna bet against the continued decline of our currency?    

No, the time to buy 16s was, really, about 6 months to a year ago.  I don't think we have seen the plateau yet.  My 2nd A1 RR set me back about $11.5k.  That was just before the last plateau (I have this nasty habit of buying stuff at intervals - dollar cost averaging).  Now I'm glad the money's not sitting in a bank.

Not what you want to hear, I imagine.  I kinda wish I'd picked up a C&R M2.  Now they're beyond me.    

Sam

It's difficult to say what is going on with NFA prices or predict what wil happen in the future.

There is definately no arguing that prices have started to rise again in the past 6 months and the time to buy was 2 years ago when it wasnt too difficult to find a forged clone receiver for under 10K.

There has definately been a lot more WTB ads than there are WTS ads for M16 and good NFA in general.  My speculation is that we are returning back to where we would have been if the 2008-2010  recession had not happened.  

The plain fact is that there is just not alot of NFA firearms out there in the first place to sell as the supply pool is fixed.

The population base of potential NFA owners has litterally exploded over the past 10 years with the advent of NFA forums like this on the internet spreading the word, Trust based transfers making it much easier to bypass the CLEO sig requirement, and suppressors becoming almost mainstream being advertised in regular gun magazines and stocking dealers with storefronts in almost every major city making them more of a retail item.  Once people find out out the NFA transfer process and buy their first suppressor, many of them with the financial means go on to buy a machinegun or two or 10.

With transfer taking as long as they do, most people dont want to sell their NFA items as a first toy to sell given the pain in the ass it is to replace.  The recession forced a lot of people to choose between keeping their house and their toys so you saw an unnatural influx of guns come onto the market.  Now that the economy is better and all those folks in precarious financial positions already offloaded their toy, so there is not a huge number of people selling all at once and many of these same sellers may now be back in the market looking to replace their lost toy.

The advent of belt-fed options certainly doesnt help the price either now that the Valkeryie and Shrike are basically retail items you can buy and have at your doorstep in a week (Shrike)  to a month (Valkyrie).   These new belt-fed owners are looking for sears and guns to run them on.  I am personally guilty of this as I bought a 3rd M16 (RLL) to dedicate to my Shrike last summer.

I also beleive  the market can get distorted by just a few well-wheeled buyers since the available pool of guns is so small.  You get a handful of folks at the same time (maybe just two or three) who have virtually unlimited pocketbooks and find out about NFA as a hobby and start buying up all sorts of guns to build their collection. Need an Uzi, well there is one at auction and they just keep bidding until they get it.  Makes no difference if it is 9K or 14K to them as $5K is chump change the same way you or me look at a vending machine where a coke is a $1 vs $1.25.  The guy I bought my first machinegun from in Houston  went from owning a a handful of machineguns when I first met him to probably close to 30 or more in a year when I went back and bought an Uzi from him a year later. Who knows how many he has taken off the market at this point 10+ years later.

Obviously as prices rise you have the panic buying effect as well as people who had been putting off purchases think "oh my god, I need to get my m16 before I get priced out of the market" and potential  seller who hold onto their guns to see how high the market goes.

All that said tt wont suprise me if Colt M16s, Group SS,  and DIAS are pretty much all over 20K+ and conversions over $15K in the next 24 months regardless of the election results.

How do you like the RR for the Shrike?  I was thinking of doing that same combo.  I have a RDIAS, but thought it'd be great to get an M16 for the Shrike upper and just for collectibility purposes.

I actually bought a RLL (Lighning Link) for my Shrike, not a receiver.  I wanted a sear type option for a couple reasons.  

A. The Shrike upper is machined with really tight tolerances and in my experience you may have "fitment" issues, especially aftermarket clone registered receivers from pre-86 vintage.  

My Shrike won't even fit on some modern lowers I tried. It wasnt even close to fitting on my transferable Oly registered receiver, wouldnt fit on either of my POF receivers, and a couple RRA lowers were extremely tight.

The only two receivers I could "drop" my Shrike upper on was either a new Colt  6920 or 6721 lower and one random post-ban Bushmaster lower that had been sitting in the back of my safe for probably 8 years.  

So if you plan on running on a Registered Receiver Lower, I would say stick with a true Colt M16 lower or you will have a high possibility of being forced to file on either a $5K upper or a $10K+ lower, neither of which is very palatable.  

The rear takedown lug on the shrike also has a thin web of material between it and the main body of the upper and is probably roughly half the thickness of the material on a normal upper.  There have been multiple reports of Shrike's shearing off their rear lugs and I suspect (and this is just speculation on my part) is that some of this may be attributible to too tight a fitment of the rear takedown pin putting alot of pressure on that thin web of material. I just got lucky and in the way back of the safe was a stripped bushmaster I got in trade for some deal years ago that fit perfect.   If I didnt know about broken rear lugs and didnt trip over this forgotten bushy lower, I would have probably taken a mallet to the rear takedown pin one of the lowers that was tight and just let it loosen up as I shot it or potentially taken a file and removed some material on the upper vs digging through my safe for a bunch of different stripped lower receivers to get one to fit and which was machined to accept a RLL.  

B. My plan was to build more of a SAW-esqe gun with a single shot lower milled out to take a saw box in front and full auto only.    Similar to the Ares lowers on their webpage that have no mag-well and the box/pouches sit up much higher and more conpact on the gun.  I just think the look is much more clean than a box or pouch hanging off the magwell, although Tom Cassidy's uptight box is much better but hangs off to the left more. I would never run with magazines on a Shrike anyway as the ROF is through the roof and why put wear and tear on a $5000 upper just to run mags which I can do with a $650 normal upper.   If I want to run mags I will just use one of my other guns.   However, in order to use a custom milled single shot AR lower to get rid of the magwell I had to have a sear of some type and lighting links work just as well as DIAS in my experience, especially if you are just going to run full-auto and dont have a modified burst kit it in. Granted DIAS are more mechnically true to form and offer some other advantages such as 22LR kits, etc. but that comes at a 2.5X cost delta and I have another registered receiver if I ever wanted to run a 22LR kit and I have a dedicated M11 in 22LR anyway so the Links limitation in my situation are minor.

It may be just me but I don't like having to swap parts around in the field to move from gun to gun and the Shrike requires a bunch of stuff to be changed out (BHO, Recoil Spring, Stock Spacer, and most likely a dedicated buffer to tune the ROF the way you want) so I just wanted a dedicated host set up for it and the RLL was the best solution for my needs at the best price.

This way I have three M16s set up, one for standard 5.56 mag fed, another for belt fed 5.56, and a 3rd for 9MM and never have to swap anything around in the field when I go shooting.

I for one will be praying for a recession. A depression would be better.

This whole time I've been thinking of saving my RDIAS for my other ARs and buying an M16 for a Shrike (which I do not yet own).  Maybe the best option would be a LL for that instead like you did?  that is a very good point that I'd NEVER run a Shrike in semi auto...what would be the point in that?  Plus they are a lot cheaper.  Thanks for this post.  It gets my wheels turning.  

How do you like the Shrike?  Damn thing is a work of art.  Have you gotten to run it with the LL yet?

Also, I have been wonding...I see the Shrike uppers for sale.  What about the Shrike lowers that do NOT accept normal  magazines?

I'm on the same boat as you.  All the recession did to me was make things cheaper.  I enjoyed it.

I like the Shrike although I only have 500rds through it at this point since I don't have a lot of time to go shooting.  Of the 500rd, the thing worked almost flawlessly through the break in period (I say almost flawlessly as the BHO wouldnt always engage but I think the stock spacer and tube I have doesnt leave much room for it to engage and since the belt fed portion doesnt engage the BHO anyway I couldnt really care). The belts all ran flawlessly as well albeit a bit fast for my taste.  I had an H3 in it and may drop of Colt B buffer in on my next outing and that should drop it another 50 to 75 RPM.

Honestly my only real complaint at this point is that the barrel is "kinda" quick change. The spring latch mech is really hard to push down to get the barrel locking pin out of the way and there is nothing but hot barrel to grab onto, so be prepared to bring an asbestos glove.  When you put a new barrel in you need to depress that same barrel lever on top 'all the way in" or the barrel retaining pin will hit right on the feed ramp of the barrel extension and I bet you would quickly ruin a barrel extension feed ramp (and hence the barrel) if you just tried to ram a new barrel home on any type of frequent basis.

In comparison to changing a barrel on my M60E4 it is like night and day and no where near as refined or easy.

The aluminum feed tray is a bit cheesy but if it starts to wear out I will just get a steel one from Ares.

Mine runs fine with a RLL, you just need to get a semi bolt carrier or just mode an existing full auto one.  The shrike carrier is a bit thicker than a standard carrier but is nothing like modding a 9MM bolt for a link.  Modding a 9MM bolt is a real pain in the rear given its a milling operation only and that weight insert is hard as fuck and destroys end mill bits like a champ in my experience. (but I am an amatuer at best machinist, so I am sure 9MM bolt are easy for pros).

Getting it to run on a link was easy as my 9MM gun has been running another link for about 7 years and I didnt bother with a modded 3rd burst for semi fire as i did with the 9MM gun.  It took some time to get the burst kit modded and working properly as I would sometimes get doubletaps on semi as the link was still somehow impacting the semi disconnector.  Once I got all the bugs out of the 3rd burst/semi kit, I can't tell the difference between my Link based gun or my registered receiver.  If you do get a link make sure to get a reinforcer (like KNS sells) which takes all the stress off the weak "ears" and you can run without fear of snapping an ear off.  I am a shooter and tinker more than a straight collector so links always seemed like a bargain to me.

In regards to lowers that dont' accept mags but do accept SAW boxes, they dont exist anywhere but Ares and they wont sell you one based on my conversation with them.  I am going to buy a Tactical Machine single shot lower and just mill the excess away I dont need and the triangular cutout for the SAW boxes/pouches.

http://www.tacticalmachining.com/single-shot-ar-15-lower.html

They are currently out of stock but I called them and they expect to have more in May or June once they finish up the next batch and get them back from the annodizer.   I asked them about making Shrike/SAW box lowers and they declined unless I wanted to buy 50 of them. (minimum order for a custom run).   I contemplated the $6K upfront  cost and trying to sell the rest off  but don't need that hassle.  The serial is high enough on the lower that you won't destroy/deface  it in the process of milling away the excess on the lower curve where the magwell would normally be, just the corporate logo.  I will then just send it off to US Annodizing to get refinished when I am done.

I also have a design in my head for an open bolt kit that uses all semi auto fire control components and the factory BHO actuator.  Think of it like a permanent magpul type bad lever that is actuated by the trigger and the spring in the BHO is pushing it up vs. the normal spring pushing it down.  Let go of the trigger and the BHO pops up, pull the trigger and the factory BHO gets pulled down.  The rest of the firing sequence with the link is roughly the same, where the bolt slams home and pulls the disconnector back releasing the hammer to fire the next shot.  The sequence continues until you release the trigger and the BHO engages the bolt again.  Not sure if I can get it all to work or will have the time to mess with it but may be a fun project and prevent any cookoffs since the aforementioned barrel is a bitch to change out.

I would have thought the popularity of the slide fire would have dampened price increases.

But remember, this is the biggest thing in any asset, nothing attracts buyers like rising prices.  Get enough people bidding on a pile of turds and before you know, turds will be triple the cost in no time...

Best post ever because it's so true. haha.

Just bought a conversion gun for $7500, it is on a cast Olympic receiver but it was never fired.  Owner bought it back in the 80's and shoved it in his safe, he doesn't know the market price and offered it to me at $7500.  I took it and jus tfiled the paper work two weeks ago.I know Olymic arms is the pinto of the RR M16's but I am still very happy

Some truth to what you say, but 16s aren't as good an example as beanie babies.  

And as for the slide fire, consider the possibillity that it can increase M16 demand by providing a "taste" to many who had no access to an NFA item.  Tough to get excited about buying something you've never seen or tried.  I had zero interest in FA until I tried it.  Just wish I'd tried in before '86..........

Sam

For that price you could not go wrong.  You can send it to M60 Joe and he will likely be able to get it into spec and running well.

Well, FYI, there are NO Olympic Arms RR M16's that are cast, they didn't start making cast receivers until a few years or more after the 1986 ban.

So it's forged?  Woot!  Still a pinto though

Nice job.  Yea there are a LOT of people that own MGs that don't really use internet at all and therefor don't really know the prices things have gotten to.  That's a great deal you got there man!

Might not be forged, as the earliest Olympic receivers were machined from billet.  Sometimes rather crudely.

example from the archives:

Score no matter what, as it's an RR at an RLL price.

Is that a full auto lower?  I don's see a sear hole.





 

Just checked Sturm.  There is a Colt M16 converted by Norell for $13K.



http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=148118


 

That's exactly what happened to me with the slide fire. I wanted a full auto even more now though I have shot over 3000 rounds in the past year with that device.

Beginning to see some prices that are almost back to earth in the last couple of weeks.  That's a good sign nobody is asking $15000 for a conversion.

No, that is offered as an example of the machining on an early SGW/Olympic billet receiver.

Frankford Arsenal M-16 Machine Gun for $13400

Olympic Arms model XM177. In like new condition. Comes with 2 uppers (1) 14 inch & (1) 12 inch. Also comes with Trijicon ACOG scope and a Gemtech M4-906D silencer. Hope this isn't a scam or this could be the buy of the year.

Machine gun with goodies for $13400

That's one of those receiver replacements Olympic did - potentially bad juju.

I am kinda a newbie at this. What's wrong with this?

See Section 7.5.4 at this link: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/


In the 2000-2002 timeframe, ATF was approving a limited number of receiver replacements, by the ORIGINAL manufacturer.  They later changed their mind and put a stop to the practice entirely.  Regardless of whether OEM replacements which ATF approved were legal, this particular replacement, and others, were not made by the OEM, since this was a Frankford Arsenal conversion of an Oly receiver, and Frankford did not do the replacement.

This Frankford replacement didn't even qualify under the rules at the time, and there's long been concern that ATF will rectify their error by simply ruling these replacement receivers to be newly-manufactured, and thus, post-samples which can't be owned by non-SOTs.

really wish I had bought that Oly for $9500 when I had the chance a year and a half ago.  Someone here bought it, had a chromed bolt release for some odd reason...

Sharp eye, sir.



 

Oly wasn't the only company to do this. I've hear of Colt and have a friend that has a Sendra that was replaced in the late 80's or early 90's

Good to know about these things. That's why I go to this site. It's sold to someone else. I email the guy and he reply that it is indeed a remake. Just hope that gets approved otherwise we wil be hearing about this in a few months.

It wasn't a bad deal, but that isn't one I'd touch with a ten foot pole. Not worth the risk.

How can you tell if it's one of the "bad ju ju" receivers?

its a A2 lower and should be an A1





 

If you've seen examples of pre-86 Oly receivers, it's immediately apparent to the trained eye even if it's a relatively-well done "replacement".

In this case it was dead easy, because that's an A2-spec receiver (reinforced pivot, reinforced barrel extension area), and Olympic didn't make any of those before the 86 ban.  The only ORIGINAL A2-spec transferrable machinegun receivers will be a select few thousand Colt M16A2s - and not even all of those, as a number of transitional models marked M16A2, but with A1 spec receivers have been observed over the years.