A Thopmson that only Runs with Sellier and Bellot? (now with video)

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - A Thopmson that only Runs with Sellier and Bellot? (now with video)

Posted: 8/19/2017 5:30:46 PM EDT

Long story short. Many years ago, one of the guys that got me into shooting bought a Thompson .45. He never transferred it into his name. And has been sitting at the dealer for at least 15 years.

I have known the guy, and have asked him many times if he were interested in selling. The answer has always been no. Well, ran into him at wall mart of all places. Struck up the conversation. He is willing to sell. No details yet. But the one thing that I do know, is that it only runs 100% on Sellier and Bellot ammunition. As of now I do not even know the manufacture of the gun. But we are in the very early negotiation stage.

He said that years ago, it was mentioned something about the extractor. I know very, very vague information. What is weird though. I was thinking about this gun last night. Then just happened to run into him today. He is interested in selling, and I told him that I would make a lower offer because I knew that it needed work.

We made tentative arrangements to meet at the range this Wednesday night. Where the gun is located.

Posted: 8/20/2017 8:16:18 AM EDT

[#1]

well tag

Posted: 8/20/2017 4:59:44 PM EDT

[#2]

I talked to the guy on the phone last night. He remembers it as an auto ordinance gun. We have a tentative test shoot on Wednesday. I am going to bring some Winchester .45. This may go nowhere, or it may go somewhere! I have a price in mind. It also helps that he needs the money. I still find it hard to believe that after all of these years, he never had it transferred to him. I do know that the dealer has been trying to get it off of his books for some time too!

Posted: 8/20/2017 11:35:05 PM EDT

[#3]

If it's an AO West Hurley gun it could be full of problems. If a WWII AO Bridgeport gun, probably just minor work needed. Post photos if possible.

Posted: 8/20/2017 11:38:00 PM EDT

[#4]

I'd only bring S&B ammo, and lots of it.

In reality, if it runs 100% on S&B 230 grain hardball, it'll run well on any other .45 ACP 230 grain hardball ammo. There is nothing "special" about S&B .45 ACP ammo. Conversely, since the seller reports that it will ONLY run with S&B, that means the gun is out of whack and probably won't run very well or very long with S&B either. Maybe one time he got it to run through a single 50 round box of S&B without it choking, just by chance.

In the likely event that this gun won't run with your Winchester ammo, it won't be a surprise to the seller, so it won't affect the selling price. However, if it does run well with the Winchester ammo, you're going to pay more for the gun. If it works well with the S&B ammo, that won't affect the selling price either, since the seller expects it to do so. If it chokes on the S&B ammo, you might end up paying even less for this "broken" gun that won't run on ANY ammo. No matter what, it's in your best interest to only bring along S&B ammo to test this thing.

If you do decide to buy it, hopefully it's an easy fix. I've heard that the West Hurley Thompsons can really be "out of whack" dimensionally.

Posted: 8/21/2017 5:03:27 PM EDT

[#5]

That's kind of odd. I've seen MANY, MANY, MANY guns that didn't like a specific ammo. Or a few types of ammo, but never something at only ran one specific, mass produced, brand. (Of course, rare oddball stuff doesn't count.)

For example, there are open bolt guns that hate hollow points and truncated cone ammo. (Mr Uzi and Mr Mac, I'm looking at you.) There's also ways to get those guns to run those types of ammo without problem. If someone said "My Uzi only eats 147 Lawman" my first guess would be that he tried 147 AE and it choked due to the shape of the projectile.

I would try to see why exactly it doesn't like other brands and what the actual malfunction is with them. After that, you may be able to easily identify what exactly is wrong with the gun.

Then you get into the ethical debate on price. If the gun is $100 because it "Only runs S&B" and you find a fix, he could sell that for $125 because you found the solution and did the work. Now he makes more money, and you don't. Or you can keep your mouth closed, pay the $100 and you get a deal because you found the way to fix it. Fine line between the buyer being shady on the sales price, and your knowledge on the solution being part of the cost.

Personally, I would negotiate the price as if it only ran the one ammo. (IE, a bit under) If I found a solution, we already agreed on that price. Of course, he could pay to send it out and get it repaired, and he would be out more money to POSSIBLY get a better price out of the sale.

Posted: 8/21/2017 7:57:37 PM EDT

[#6]

Do you know what type of thompson it is? Is it an M1 variant or a 21/28 variant? Any clue as to the manufacturer?

21/28s can have a lot more things go wrong with them (and be much more difficult to fix given their active firing pin and blish lock cuts in the receiver) vs. an M1 variant which is pretty much just straight blowback operated. The M1A1 has even less complexity with it fixed firing pin arrangement on the bolt.

Posted: 8/23/2017 6:06:54 PM EDT

[#7]

A Thompson with good condition mags will feed literally any type or shape of ammo and will rarely jam. If ever.

If an original pre-1945 Thompson doesn't run good, then it has a broken part and can be easily fixed. They are all excellent guns, 21, 28, M1 and M1a1 models all run great.

The extractor you mentioned is a $20 / 5 minute repair.

If a west hurley Thompson (all were made 1975 to 1985 ish) doesn't run, it could be a bad part or a bad gun. They are a knock-off of mediocre quality and are hit and miss. Sometimes they need gunsmithing to get running good.

Find out what kind of Thompson it is.

Saying he has an AO Thompson for sale is like saying he has a "Chevy" for sale. Kind of vague. There is a $15,000 to $60,000 price range on Thompsons.

Post up some pics and some more info if possible.

See link for more information:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x85tes

Posted: 9/13/2017 1:36:43 PM EDT

[#8]

My MAC-10 doesn't like to extract a couple brands of foreign made .45. One of those might be S&B, I can't remember.

I remember staring at the rims of said ammo and the profile differed notably from US made stuff. I forget if it was the depth of the rim or the angles going into the rim recess, but it was definitely different. I suspect you have the reverse issue here where the gun's extractor only likes the foreign made profile.

Posted: 9/20/2017 1:37:59 PM EDT

[#9]

My 1921AC does not like Blazer Brass (too anemic) but runs everything else just fine. The hotter the ammo, the faster the cyclical rate.

No, I am not shooting anything too hot through it.

Posted: 6/27/2018 8:41:43 PM EDT

[#10]

WELL...I Finally got around to meeting up with the guy at the range. The stars aligned, and the C3 dealer was able to meet me there as well as the owner of the gun.
The gun is an Auto Ordnance West Hurley M1a1.

It has been on the dealers books for 19 years! It was in decent looking shape. No pitting, a little surface rust on the receiver. Hardly noticeable. He only had a 20 round stick mag. First we loaded it up with Sellier and Bellot. First few mags ran without a hiccup. I brought some Remington, Federal, and Winchester. The gun liked the S&B the best, followed by the Remington, it DID not want to run on Federal AT ALL!

The C3 guy thought that it may be an extractor issue.

We didn't settle on anything yet. I ran into the owner last sunday at a different range. We agreed to meet up tonight. Last Sunday, he said that he would sell for over 10. I told him today that I was going to look into some possible fixes with the issues. But my bottom like is 10k. With a daughter heading to college. I don't need to be spending that kind of money anyways. But, sorry for the long awaited update.

I did take some pictures. And video. I was told that the gun was built in the late 70's. The cases that didn't want to eject, got pretty chewed up, one actually got stuck in the barrel backwards!

Posted: 6/27/2018 8:49:23 PM EDT

[#11]

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But my bottom like is 10k.

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The seller is a fool if he sells it that cheap. Good luck.

Posted: 6/27/2018 8:57:38 PM EDT

[#12]

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The seller is a fool if he sells it that cheap. Good luck.

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this

I did get my WH TSMG for $12,500 a few years back (2?) I really enjoy it.

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:03:20 PM EDT

[#13]

From this limited info, what would be a good price for the gun?

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:05:12 PM EDT

[#14]

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From this limited info, what would be a good price for the gun?

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$18K

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:08:05 PM EDT

[#15]

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Quoted:

The seller is a fool if he sells it that cheap. Good luck.

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The things that I do know. He needs the money. Without specifics. It would benefit him to sell me the gun. It would be the easiest and quickest way for him to sell it.

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:09:53 PM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:

$18K

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Even though it is a West Hurley gun that has problems? It could be as easy as replacing the extractor. Or who knows?

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:13:22 PM EDT

[#17]

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Quoted:

Even though it is a West Hurley gun that has problems? It could be as easy as replacing the extractor. Or who knows?

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I sold 2 6yrs ago for $15K. Check the forums, they usually list at $20K now. I have a pristine one in the EE for $19K delivered.

There is almost nothing to those guns. Buy a new complete GI bolt and you've replaced everything that could be an issue. The WH M1A1s are C&R now so they are more desirable.

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:16:25 PM EDT

[#18]

If the gun runs 100% on S&B, there is no problem with the gun. If it chokes on other ammo as you describe it usually because it's underpowered.

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:23:08 PM EDT

[#19]

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If the gun runs 100% on S&B, there is no problem with the gun. If it chokes on other ammo as you describe it usually because it's underpowered.

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In the last mag. I loaded up 18 rounds. Top eight were Remington, bottom ten were S&B. The rem ran fine, but it choked on the S&B.

Posted: 6/27/2018 9:50:13 PM EDT

[#20]

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I sold 2 6yrs ago for $15K. Check the forums, they usually list at $20K now. I have a pristine one in the EE for $19K delivered.

There is almost nothing to those guns. Buy a new complete GI bolt and you've replaced everything that could be an issue. The WH M1A1s are C&R now so they are more desirable.

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The one that I shot today, wasn't as nice as the one you are selling. It was nice, but not that nice.

Posted: 6/28/2018 6:59:28 AM EDT

[#21]

10K? Why haven't you handed the money over to him yet? Buy it before he realizes what he's doing. I wouldn't be able to get my wallet out fast enough.

Even if you have to put a few thousand into repairs you're still coming out way ahead. WH's are going to 18-20K like everyone is saying. This is a crazy deal of a lifetime, don't let it pass you by, and if you do please pass on his info so one of us can get a deal.

Posted: 6/28/2018 3:11:49 PM EDT

[#22]

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10K? Why haven't you handed the money over to him yet? Buy it before he realizes what he's doing. I wouldn't be able to get my wallet out fast enough.

Even if you have to put a few thousand into repairs you're still coming out way ahead. WH's are going to 18-20K like everyone is saying. This is a crazy deal of a lifetime, don't let it pass you by, and if you do please pass on his info so one of us can get a deal.

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10 k is what I offered to him. He never told me what his bottom dollar price was. I am going to text him here in a bit, and find out what his non negotiating price is.

Posted: 6/30/2018 7:15:01 PM EDT

[#23]

https://youtu.be/M0DbA9gIBbU

Posted: 6/30/2018 9:45:56 PM EDT

[#24]

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Quoted:
https://youtu.be/M0DbA9gIBbU

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Pre-purchase test fire with the owner, or did you buy the Thompson?

Posted: 7/1/2018 6:49:29 AM EDT

[#25]

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Pre-purchase test fire with the owner, or did you buy the Thompson?

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Pre-purchase test fire. We are still negotiating.

Posted: 7/14/2018 6:51:23 AM EDT

[#26]

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The gun is an Auto Ordnance West Hurley M1a1.

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This alone could be your problem.
Fixes for WH Thompsons range from simple to complex and costly.
$10K would be a steal because even if its a piece of shit, some other person would pay more for it.

I would replace all internals (bolt, actuator, spring and guide rod and ejector) first.
This could resolve many issues.
If this doesn't work it could be a more complex problem.
It is not uncommon for WH Thompsons to require actual work on the receiver. Many of them didn't work straight from the factory especially if its one of the later models.

Although $10K is steal, for me if it doesn't work its a waste of $10K because $10K is a lot of money for an item that is only going to frustrate you.

Go here if you want further info and recommendations : http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showforum=3

Posted: 7/14/2018 7:49:34 AM EDT

[#27]

I think at 10K it’s a good investment whether you shoot it or not.

Posted: 7/15/2018 10:16:22 AM EDT

[#28]

I haven't heard back from the guy about my offer. I am going to up it a bit. But, I won't be completely heartbroken if it does not go through.

Posted: 8/31/2018 5:40:09 AM EDT

[#29]

Well, the guy told me his bottom price, but said it was negotiable. He is getting married this weekend. Probably going to seal the deal when he gets back. From what I have found/researched. Could be a simple fix of replacing the bolt. Maybe even a re barrel. Now to find a reasonable priced parts kit!

Any leads?

Posted: 8/31/2018 8:20:47 AM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well, the guy told me his bottom price, but said it was negotiable. He is getting married this weekend. Probably going to seal the deal when he gets back. From what I have found/researched. Could be a simple fix of replacing the bolt. Maybe even a re barrel. Now to find a reasonable priced parts kit!

Any leads?

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There is no reason that gun needs a re-barrel.

Posted: 8/31/2018 10:00:23 AM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
There is no reason that gun needs a re-barrel.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, the guy told me his bottom price, but said it was negotiable. He is getting married this weekend. Probably going to seal the deal when he gets back. From what I have found/researched. Could be a simple fix of replacing the bolt. Maybe even a re barrel. Now to find a reasonable priced parts kit!

Any leads?

There is no reason that gun needs a re-barrel.

Might need to have the chamber opened up though. IIRC, at least some WH Thompsons had tight chambers.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

Posted: 8/31/2018 3:21:01 PM EDT

[#32]

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Quoted:

There is no reason that gun needs a re-barrel.

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As soon as I can get more pictures. I will take many detailed ones. I am pretty new to the Thompson game. Thing is. I have known about this one ever since the person bought it. I have talked to him several times over the years about purchasing it. Looks like the stars might line up on this one. It will be a nice companion to my Erb MP-40.

Posted: 9/12/2018 5:43:41 AM EDT

[#33]

Looks like the deal is going through! Just waiting on my c-3 guy to finalize the details. Time to take some new pass port pictures!

Posted: 9/12/2018 6:50:57 AM EDT

[#34]

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Looks like the deal is going through!!

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Awesome

Posted: 9/12/2018 8:08:25 AM EDT

[#35]

Congratulations!!

Posted: 9/12/2018 1:26:02 PM EDT

[#36]

Congrats! Took ya long enough, huh?

Posted: 9/12/2018 6:39:25 PM EDT

[#37]

Things move a little slower in in WV! I did get fingerprinted and photographed today. Meeting up tomorrow with the dealer to fill out my form 4.

Posted: 9/12/2018 6:41:04 PM EDT

[#38]

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Congrats! Took ya long enough, huh?

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Darn...Just looked at my first post date. Just about a year ago!! Man, if only we had moved swifter on it. I probably would have it in possession by now!!

Posted: 9/12/2018 9:55:29 PM EDT

[#39]

West Hurley guns not running is pretty common. Be careful the receivers can crack as well.
I have 3 in the shop that are getting completely torn down and rebuilt. For the most part they should be bought expected to never run and have to sink money into them. Once they are fixed its never a problem again.

Posted: 9/28/2018 5:41:08 AM EDT

[#40]

Form 4 Sent in the mail this week. Now the wait begins. Good thing is, I can view and shoot this gun while I am waiting. Now I am in the process of finding a replacement bolt.

Posted: 9/28/2018 9:16:39 AM EDT

[#41]

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Form 4 Sent in the mail this week. Now the wait begins. Good thing is, I can view and shoot this gun while I am waiting. Now I am in the process of finding a replacement bolt.

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What did you pay for it? I'm seeing real AO WWII M1s selling for within $2K of what WH guns were selling for a year or two ago. I stopped listing my WH, of low prices of the AO guns. Regardless of AO or WH, its great time to be a buyer.

Posted: 11/30/2018 11:59:46 AM EDT

[#42]

If you own a Thompson, and have not been to Machinegunboards.com (Thompson Submachineguns Forum), you're missing out.
Every Thompson topic has been covered there in detail. The people there the most helpful on the planet, regarding Thompsons.

The M1A1 Hurley has an issue with the magazine well not cut high enough to allow proper seating of most magazines. An easy fix, even with a file, if your're very good with a file.
The 28 pattern Hurley may have an issue with the Blish locking slots. They can be fixed to perfection, but it is expensive -several thousand for a full re-do.
The vast majority of Hurley 28's never will have received this fix, and chug along decade after decade with no problem.
The cracked receiver rears are nearly all traced to using the "Gunmachine" speed parts sold in the 80's. That and improper or no buffer used behind the bolt.
Many Hurleys left the factory with some repro parts; actuators, sears, mag catches, rear sights, etc.; they are all easily replaced for little cost, and fix a great many problems.
In particular, you want to check the buffer pilot/AKA: recoil spring guide, to make sure it is a one piece GI pattern, and replace any hard red buffer with a neoprene buffer.

PM me if you have any further questions. Glad to help.

Posted: 11/30/2018 12:55:42 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you own a Thompson, and have not been to Machinegunboards.com (Thompson Submachineguns Forum), you're missing out.
Every Thompson topic has been covered there in detail. The people there the most helpful on the planet, regarding Thompsons.

The M1A1 Hurley has an issue with the magazine well not cut high enough to allow proper seating of most magazines. An easy fix, even with a file, if your're very good with a file.
The 28 pattern Hurley may have an issue with the Blish locking slots. They can be fixed to perfection, but it is expensive -several thousand for a full re-do.
The vast majority of Hurley 28's never will have received this fix, and chug along decade after decade with no problem.
The cracked receiver rears are nearly all traced to using the "Gunmachine" speed parts sold in the 80's. That and improper or no buffer used behind the bolt.
Many Hurleys left the factory with some repro parts; actuators, sears, mag catches, rear sights, etc.; they are all easily replaced for little cost, and fix a great many problems.
In particular, you want to check the buffer pilot/AKA: recoil spring guide, to make sure it is a one piece GI pattern, and replace any hard red buffer with a neoprene buffer.

PM me if you have any further questions. Glad to help.

View Quote

Thank you. I do post over there sometimes. Under the name El Duce. I have since bought a parts kit, and when the gun is transferred to me, I am going to go through it. I do kind of have access to it, but it is at the range. Now that the weather is bad, makes it difficult to get out there. I am fairly new to Thompsons. I do know that some of the same guys post here and at Uzi talk. Since I have known about this gun, the only time that it has been shot, has been with the same magazine. I have also bought a few new ones, that I am also going to try out with the gun. This gun really has not been fired much at all over the past 20 years, and pretty much has been sitting in a safe. I know that's hard to believe, but once I get it in my hands, I plan on getting it to run 100%. Thank you for the offer to help!!

Posted: 11/30/2018 12:56:34 PM EDT

[#44]

The Thompson in question is a M1a1.

Posted: 11/30/2018 7:05:46 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
The Thompson in question is a M1a1.

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West Hurly/Numrich called it a "True M1", but it was shipped with a M1A1 bolt, either GI, or a small run of their own bolts.
Only slightly over 700 of these were made, making them the rarest of the post war produced WH Thompson copies.
I would advise obtaining a M1 bolt assembly for shooting; as you are already on that forum, you have likely read the reasons, more than once.

Posted: 12/1/2018 7:17:30 PM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:

West Hurly/Numrich called it a "True M1", but it was shipped with a M1A1 bolt, either GI, or a small run of their own bolts.
Only slightly over 700 of these were made, making them the rarest of the post war produced WH Thompson copies.
I would advise obtaining a M1 bolt assembly for shooting; as you are already on that forum, you have likely read the reasons, more than once.

View Quote

The parts kit that I bought was a M1a1. I have had some difficulty finding a plain bolt. I am looking forward to have the gun so that I can trouble shoot it. I won't feel confident doing any gun smith work myself. I figure that worst case scenario, with what I have in the gun, even paying someone to fix it, I am still ahead.

Thanks for the advice! Good chance I will have more questions in the future.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - A Thopmson that only Runs with Sellier and Bellot? (now with video)

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