School me on SBR's

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - School me on SBR's (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 7/6/2009 12:22:09 PM EDT

I have built acouple Ar's now and I am thinking about building an SBR. I know that in addition to the parts to assemble it, I also have to get a "tax stamp" from The Kenyan's henchman.

How do I apply for this stamp and where? Once I have it, the stamp has to stay with the SBR at all times correct?
Do I have to have the lower reciever when I apply for the stamp, sot at the serial number is recorded on th application?
Do I have to provide stamp information to whoever I buy the barrel of complete upper from?

Posted: 7/6/2009 3:44:47 AM EDT

[#1]

Search function is your friend!

Mods, feel free to lock or delete.

Posted: 7/6/2009 4:05:05 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
I have built acouple Ar's now and I am thinking about building an SBR. I know that in addition to the parts to assemble it, I also have to get a "tax stamp" from The Kenyan's henchman.

How do I apply for this stamp and where? Once I have it, the stamp has to stay with the SBR at all times correct? Form 1 to BATFE +$200 - A copy needs to be with you at all times that you have the rifle
Do I have to have the lower reciever when I apply for the stamp, sot at the serial number is recorded on th application? Yes they need make and serial # plus you have to have it engraved
Do I have to provide stamp information to whoever I buy the barrel of complete upper from?

You can buy the barrel without any paperwork but it is unlawful to possess all items to make a SBR without paperwork

Posted: 7/6/2009 4:06:07 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Search function is your friend!

Mods, feel free to lock or delete.

Another "look at me, I'm in compliance with ARFCOM's rules and you're not!" post.

The moderators know their job - stay in your lane, self-appointed internet forum policeman.

(it's people like this who got their @ss kicked on the playground when they were kids)

OP:

Google "ATF Form 1" for the SBR application.

In addition to searching this site, the app instructions will answer some of your questions.

You hear various interpretations regarding possession of parts. Just be smart about it and don't assemble anything until you have stamp in hand.

Posted: 7/6/2009 4:23:55 AM EDT

[#4]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=22

Nearly dedicated SBR forum. Check stickies, FAQs and of course picture thread.

Posted: 7/6/2009 4:49:25 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have built acouple Ar's now and I am thinking about building an SBR. I know that in addition to the parts to assemble it, I also have to get a "tax stamp" from The Kenyan's henchman.

How do I apply for this stamp and where? Once I have it, the stamp has to stay with the SBR at all times correct? Form 1 to BATFE +$200 - A copy needs to be with you at all times that you have the rifle
Do I have to have the lower reciever when I apply for the stamp, sot at the serial number is recorded on th application? Yes they need make and serial # plus you have to have it engraved
Do I have to provide stamp information to whoever I buy the barrel of complete upper from?

You can buy the barrel without any paperwork but it is unlawful to possess all items to make a SBR without paperwork

you can "posses" the components, but once you assemble any of them it then becomes illegal unless registered. same goes for full auto components. i remember an atf guy telling us at an in-service that you can have the parts to a full auto trigger group, but once you put any of those parts together it becomes illegal. also registered parts must stay with the registered weapon. no swapping is allowed.

Posted: 7/6/2009 5:05:59 AM EDT

[#6]

Ive heard people say that having the short barrel without the stamp is like possession with the intent to build an SBR or some crap like that.

I dont buy that. Just dont assemble anything until your stamp comes back and you will be fine. Remember to get your lower engraved with your name city and state.

Heres the form you need to fill out in duplicate with passport photos attached and fingerprint cards included.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf

If you are going the traditional route, you need the chief law enforcement officer in the city or county in which you reside to sign off stating that there are no laws where you live prohibiting the possession of NFA items. Get all that together along with a check for $200.00 then be prepared to wait 6 months for its return.

Posted: 7/6/2009 5:12:54 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Ive heard people say that having the short barrel without the stamp is like possession with the intent to build an SBR or some crap like that.

I dont buy that. Just dont assemble anything until your stamp comes back and you will be fine. Remember to get your lower engraved with your name city and state.

Heres the form you need to fill out in duplicate with passport photos attached and fingerprint cards included.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf

If you are going the traditional route, you need the chief law enforcement officer in the city or county in which you reside to sign off stating that there are no laws where you live prohibiting the possession of NFA items. Get all that together along with a check for $200.00 then be prepared to wait 6 months for its return.

and it's an painful wait at that when your eager to get that thing in your possesion..

Posted: 7/6/2009 5:21:18 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ive heard people say that having the short barrel without the stamp is like possession with the intent to build an SBR or some crap like that.

I dont buy that. Just dont assemble anything until your stamp comes back and you will be fine. Remember to get your lower engraved with your name city and state.

Heres the form you need to fill out in duplicate with passport photos attached and fingerprint cards included.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf

If you are going the traditional route, you need the chief law enforcement officer in the city or county in which you reside to sign off stating that there are no laws where you live prohibiting the possession of NFA items. Get all that together along with a check for $200.00 then be prepared to wait 6 months for its return.

and it's an painful wait at that when your eager to get that thing in your possesion..

My last stamp took 2 and a half months (went the corporation route).

Posted: 7/6/2009 5:31:51 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Ive heard people say that having the short barrel without the stamp is like possession with the intent to build an SBR or some crap like that.

Jason Christopher Kent didn't buy it either, and he's sitting in Club Fed (with his stint extended by the SABR "intent" ruling, since he was going in for machinegun possession already).
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170

Short-barreled upper assembled + rifle lower (even attached to another rifle upper) == SBR. 100% proven in court by the ATF and upheld on appeal.

Posted: 7/6/2009 6:00:16 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Search function is your friend!

Mods, feel free to lock or delete.

Another "look at me, I'm in compliance with ARFCOM's rules and you're not!" post.

The moderators know their job - stay in your lane, self-appointed internet forum policeman.

(it's people like this who got their @ss kicked on the playground when they were kids)

OP:

Google "ATF Form 1" for the SBR application.

In addition to searching this site, the app instructions will answer some of your questions.

You hear various interpretations regarding possession of parts. Just be smart about it and don't assemble anything until you have stamp in hand.

... you do know you're talking to the same person, right?

Posted: 7/6/2009 6:20:21 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ive heard people say that having the short barrel without the stamp is like possession with the intent to build an SBR or some crap like that.

Jason Christopher Kent didn't buy it either, and he's sitting in Club Fed (with his stint extended by the SABR "intent" ruling, since he was going in for machinegun possession already).
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170

Short-barreled upper assembled + rifle lower (even attached to another rifle upper) == SBR. 100% proven in court by the ATF and upheld on appeal.

Thats why I said dont assemble anything. If you read the link you posted, it states that the ATF demonstrated in court that within less than 30 seconds, they were able to remove one upper receiver and replace it with the short barreled upper. That was critical in proving his intent in creating an SBR without a tax stamp. Also, this guy was obviously trouble, he was charged with knowingly transporting stolen firearms across state lines as well as several other charges.

John Q Law Abiding citizen who goes out and buys all the parts required to build his SBR and patiently waits until his stamp comes in to do so will not have a problem.

Posted: 7/6/2009 6:33:03 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Search function is your friend!

Mods, feel free to lock or delete.

Another "look at me, I'm in compliance with ARFCOM's rules and you're not!" post.

The moderators know their job - stay in your lane, self-appointed internet forum policeman.

(it's people like this who got their @ss kicked on the playground when they were kids)

OP:

Google "ATF Form 1" for the SBR application.

In addition to searching this site, the app instructions will answer some of your questions.

You hear various interpretations regarding possession of parts. Just be smart about it and don't assemble anything until you have stamp in hand.

... you do know you're talking to the same person, right?

LOL....I didnt catch that either, thats funny.....policing himself.

Posted: 7/6/2009 9:16:07 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

John Q Law Abiding citizen who goes out and buys all the parts required to build his SBR and patiently waits until his stamp comes in to do so will not have a problem.

But if the man wanted you to "have a problem" it would be a BIG problem.

I've often wondered how many SBR uppers were purchased during the "rush" with out the buyer knowing anything about the NFA (or more often the seller not letting the n00b customer know), and I suspect the larger number is people who do know better and just don't care (see quote above...)

Posted: 7/6/2009 11:57:45 AM EDT

[#14]

I'm betting that if you have the form in, waiting on approval AND have already went through and had your lower reciever engraved AND you get caught with a sbr/pistol upper (not installed on any lower)..... you're going to jail. Knowing that, I don't have the money to be the test case for just having the bare barrel and another rifle laying around.

If you've got other ar's, just wait it out. You'll be able to get uppers for a long while it looks like.

First time I've ever used run-on sentences and didn't care.

IBTL.

Posted: 7/6/2009 1:16:44 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Ive heard people say that having the short barrel without the stamp is like possession with the intent to build an SBR or some crap like that.

Jason Christopher Kent didn't buy it either, and he's sitting in Club Fed (with his stint extended by the SABR "intent" ruling, since he was going in for machinegun possession already).
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170

Short-barreled upper assembled + rifle lower (even attached to another rifle upper) == SBR. 100% proven in court by the ATF and upheld on appeal.

Thats why I said dont assemble anything. If you read the link you posted, it states that the ATF demonstrated in court that within less than 30 seconds, they were able to remove one upper receiver and replace it with the short barreled upper. That was critical in proving his intent in creating an SBR without a tax stamp. Also, this guy was obviously trouble, he was charged with knowingly transporting stolen firearms across state lines as well as several other charges.

John Q Law Abiding citizen who goes out and buys all the parts required to build his SBR and patiently waits until his stamp comes in to do so will not have a problem.

Bad advice man, bad advice.

Posted: 7/6/2009 2:09:33 PM EDT

[#16]

the form 4 SBR i got back last week took 14 weeks.

sure, you can have a short barreled upper in your house without a registered lower but do you really want to take that chance? how well do you like your dog?

if you're building from the ground up don't assemble the upper until the form 1 shows up (can't reasonably be made into a short upper very quickly) or if you already have the complete upper just take it to a friends place for a few weeks (provided he's not going to be in the same boat) point is, don't have a short upper that's "ready to go" laying around your place without a registered lower.

i know that most of us think that the SBR laws are kinda silly but they are still the LAW. just because you can get away with some things is no reason to push your luck.

do i worry too much? maybe. i'm just not willing to push it when it comes to a government that changes the rules at will.
me? oh, i wouldn't even have the barrel in the house. i like my dogs

Posted: 7/6/2009 3:06:59 PM EDT

[#17]

Don't believe all the constructive-intent crap.

Name me ONE dude who went to court because of him having SBR parts laying around. Not that same tired old case from '99 where the guy was in court for 20+ charges and they went ahead and added the SBR to it....i'm talking about a case that ONLY addresses the ownership of SBR parts with no other associated charges. Most everyone who gets hit for NFA was either being raided for drugs, other 'real' crimes, or actually created illegal machine guns or SBR's and paraded them around.

If you have a short barrel only, sitting on a shelf, and have PENDING NFA paperwork, and don't assembly the thing before it comes back, you will never find any trouble. Trouble comes when you assemble the upper, attach SCOPES, FOREGRIPS, FLASHLIGHTS to it, and then have wear marks where it was obvioulsy attached to the lower.

Read the above mentioned court case, even there they cited all the junk that was hanging on the upper as being "intent"...and hell, I AGREE with that...never did they say that having a BARREL laying in a box was intent to contruct. [not on it's own merits].

That guy above had all kinds of other problems...

Posted: 7/6/2009 3:25:58 PM EDT

[#18]

My last Form1 (April '09) took 9 weeks mailbox to mailbox on an LLC.

MadDog

Posted: 7/6/2009 6:31:23 PM EDT

[#19]

yarbsea, with all due respect, I am going to have to disagree with you.

I have been dealing with this crap for decades, and what I have seen over those decades is an increasing vulnerability of otherwise-law-abiding individuals to being charged with NFA violations because of trumpted-up charges based on search warrants issued due solely to "politically correct" complaints.

That includes things like baseless charges that on the 4th of July they were shooting guns in the air (i.e., legal fireworks), warrants that stemmed from 911 calls for EMTs who noticed firearms in the home, etc. Ya know, the sort of silly observations that are just enough –– in today's climate –– to convince a judge that LE deserves a look inside your home to see what you possess.

I don't care if you are a choirboy, or Mother Theresa's godson –– there are too many opportunities for LE to get a warrant and examine your life and possessions, and once they do, you suddenly move from choirboy to Public Enemy No. 1 in the eyes of the prosecutor and the media.

You might win in court –– but the legal defense will cost you your home, your pension, your family's (or future family's) quality of life ... your future. All I can say is, it ain't worth it.

If you want an SBR, get the Form 1 approved first, then buy the parts. Or else, be prepared to deal with the remote but real chance of consequences beyond your imagining.

Yes, I am paranoid. That doesn't mean they are not out to get me, or us. Sigh.

Posted: 7/7/2009 11:01:56 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Don't believe all the constructive-intent crap.

Name me ONE dude who went to court because of him having SBR parts laying around. Not that same tired old case from '99 where the guy was in court for 20+ charges and they went ahead and added the SBR to it....i'm talking about a case that ONLY addresses the ownership of SBR parts with no other associated charges. Most everyone who gets hit for NFA was either being raided for drugs, other 'real' crimes, or actually created illegal machine guns or SBR's and paraded them around.

If you have a short barrel only, sitting on a shelf, and have PENDING NFA paperwork, and don't assembly the thing before it comes back, you will never find any trouble. Trouble comes when you assemble the upper, attach SCOPES, FOREGRIPS, FLASHLIGHTS to it, and then have wear marks where it was obvioulsy attached to the lower.

Read the above mentioned court case, even there they cited all the junk that was hanging on the upper as being "intent"...and hell, I AGREE with that...never did they say that having a BARREL laying in a box was intent to contruct. [not on it's own merits].

That guy above had all kinds of other problems...

I won't mention any names, but several years ago a guy I knew was going through a divorce and when things started getting nasty the soon to be ex-wife called ATF and told them her husband had an unregisterd SBR (it was a 14.5" AR). She met the ATF at the door and let them in and showed them where the rifle was. They didn't need a warrant as she gave them permission to enter. To make a long story short, he was charged, lost the rifle, lost about $7K in lawyer fees, but did not go to jail (I belive he got probation). So it can and does happen to people who are not doing anything else.

Posted: 7/7/2009 1:47:12 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Don't believe all the constructive-intent crap.

Name me ONE dude who went to court because of him having SBR parts laying around. Not that same tired old case from '99 where the guy was in court for 20+ charges and they went ahead and added the SBR to it....i'm talking about a case that ONLY addresses the ownership of SBR parts with no other associated charges. Most everyone who gets hit for NFA was either being raided for drugs, other 'real' crimes, or actually created illegal machine guns or SBR's and paraded them around.

If you have a short barrel only, sitting on a shelf, and have PENDING NFA paperwork, and don't assembly the thing before it comes back, you will never find any trouble. Trouble comes when you assemble the upper, attach SCOPES, FOREGRIPS, FLASHLIGHTS to it, and then have wear marks where it was obvioulsy attached to the lower.

Read the above mentioned court case, even there they cited all the junk that was hanging on the upper as being "intent"...and hell, I AGREE with that...never did they say that having a BARREL laying in a box was intent to contruct. [not on it's own merits].

That guy above had all kinds of other problems...

I won't mention any names, but several years ago a guy I knew was going through a divorce and when things started getting nasty the soon to be ex-wife called ATF and told them her husband had an unregisterd SBR (it was a 14.5" AR). She met the ATF at the door and let them in and showed them where the rifle was. They didn't need a warrant as she gave them permission to enter. To make a long story short, he was charged, lost the rifle, lost about $7K in lawyer fees, but did not go to jail (I belive he got probation). So it can and does happen to people who are not doing anything else.

So this just goes to show me more examples of people being IDIOTS..illegal SBR...what do you expect?

This does NOT show me a person who was in trouble with the ATF for "constructive intent" WITHOUT additional charges.

Posted: 7/7/2009 3:02:51 PM EDT

[#22]

Who was the guy that had a VP70 with two shoulder stock and the matching semi auto pistol?

ATF borrowed the VP70, leaving him with the semi auto pistol and shoulder stock..... And he got hit with the unregistered SBR.

Posted: 7/7/2009 5:17:45 PM EDT

[#23]

First off, the charge is "constructive possession" of an NFA item –– there is no such legal term as "constructive intent, " and such a term would be redundant anyway –– "constructive possession" means possession of all the parts/ingredients to create something illegal is, in and of itself, proof of intent. This does not just apply to guns –– the courts have applied the same logic to individuals found in possession of all the ingredients neccessary to manufacture illegal drugs, whether or not they have "assembled" them.

Second, regardless of whether many, most or all individuals charged with constructive possession also face additional charges, or are arrested following investigation of other charges, one fact holds true:

Possession of all the parts required to construct an NFA item, without also having all the parts needed to assemble them in an alternate legal configuration, is a class A federal felony.

Saying "Go ahead –– if you're smart, no one will ever catch you," is irrelevant. One of this forum's ground rules is: No discussion of anything illegal.

Those who wish to promote the commission of felonies need to go post elsewhere. Because it will not be tolerated in this forum.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Posted: 7/8/2009 7:14:38 PM EDT

[#24]

No to bring up a beaten thread, but i've just noticed something...

More than a few recent pics in the SBR thread have the following (or similiar) coments:

"Just got my stamp in the mail today...here she is", or "I can finally put this together, my stamp came today". It seems to me that ALOT of people are under the impression that holding parts with out a stamp is ok. Either that or custom SBR uppers are teleported from builders nano-seconds after the owner recieves the stamp in the mail.

It's easy to prove "constructive possesion" when you advertise what you did on a public forum.

Just sayin...

Posted: 7/9/2009 2:36:53 AM EDT

[#25]

there is another way.........

my SBR was a form 4 transfer so the guy that owned the rifle received the form in the mail. i picked up my form and my rifle at the same time.

or

the upper is at a friends house or on a shelf at the local gun store. form 1 shows up, guy runs to "other" location to get his parts.

or

SBR was originally a pistol. in a matter of a few minutes a guy can have a stock installed on his now registered lower. (again the stock could be at another location or in this case could be taken off of a rifle and put on to = SBR)

i'm not saying this is what's going on in every case but it could be.

Posted: 7/9/2009 6:50:52 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
SBR was originally a pistol. in a matter of a few minutes a guy can have a stock installed on his now registered lower. (again the stock could be at another location or in this case could be taken off of a rifle and put on to = SBR)

I'll buy that one. But you see what I'm sayin'.

Posted: 7/9/2009 6:52:10 AM EDT

[#27]

DT to start two...joy.

Posted: 7/9/2009 1:05:03 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
SBR was originally a pistol. in a matter of a few minutes a guy can have a stock installed on his now registered lower. (again the stock could be at another location or in this case could be taken off of a rifle and put on to = SBR)

I'll buy that one. But you see what I'm sayin'.

oh yeah, i see where you're coming from it is kinda funny (in a serious way). you have a very valid point and i think it wise that others pay attention to it.

to reiterate: i would never keep the parts to make an NFA item in my home until the approved form was in hand. this is the FREE advice that i give out too.

Posted: 7/14/2009 7:44:31 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Let me see if I got this straight....I have a lower that I built with a parts kit and a 14" upper that I bought that I want to put on the lower. I complete the Form 1 with all requirements as other post have been very helpful on.

Quoted:
Thanks guys! Here is the complete AR15 collection. I'm just waiting for my paperwork on the CMMG lower for the CMMG upper that I'm not using now. Starting at the top is my Colt 6920, then just my Stag upper on a CMMG lower build and the bottom is my Colt 6450 SBR. Anyway, not many, but I love them all!

Two more shinning (recent) examples...are people just that nonchalant? On a public forum no less?

Posted: 7/14/2009 8:17:51 PM EDT

[#30]

Please be advised that attaching an upper reciever with a barrel length shorter than 16" to a non nfa weapon, or even a future nfa weapon not yet approved is a felony. Unless it's a pistol lower

Also, having an upper reciever with a barrel length of less than 16 inches and Any incomplete ar15 (non pistol) lower reciever is intent to assemble an unregistered nfa weapon, and is also a felony

Posted: 7/15/2009 2:01:42 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Also, having an upper reciever with a barrel length of less than 16 inches and Any incomplete ar15 (non pistol) lower reciever is intent to assemble an unregistered nfa weapon, and is also a felony

I'll disagree, maybe you didn't mean it to sound this way, but with this stuff it is always worth clarifying. I'm not trying to be a critic, just trying to be sure things are clear.

It is perfectly fine to have an unassembled, unregistered lower and short barreled upper, IF you already have an SBR or a pistol lower that it can be placed on. Many people have several different short barreled uppers for use on their single SBR lower and they may also have some other stripped lowers waiting for another future build.

Posted: 7/15/2009 9:00:29 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Also, having an upper reciever with a barrel length of less than 16 inches and Any incomplete ar15 (non pistol) lower reciever is intent to assemble an unregistered nfa weapon, and is also a felony

I'll disagree, maybe you didn't mean it to sound this way, but with this stuff it is always worth clarifying. I'm not trying to be a critic, just trying to be sure things are clear.

It is perfectly fine to have an unassembled, unregistered lower and short barreled upper, IF you already have an SBR or a pistol lower that it can be placed on. Many people have several different short barreled uppers for use on their single SBR lower and they may also have some other stripped lowers waiting for another future build.

I meant to say if you have a lower with a stock on it, and have no 16" upper to complete it with.

Posted: 7/16/2009 1:48:45 PM EDT

[#33]

Originally Posted By ***** :
Came home from work Friday afternoon and found an envelope from BATF in my mailbox. Roughly four months wait time for my tax stamp. After much anticipation....here she is.

Another "instant SBR"...

Maybe I should just buy an upper now instead of playing by the "rules" and waiting for my paper work...

Posted: 7/22/2009 11:10:18 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Posted here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=452496&page=1

Got an envelope in the mail yesterday, the contents of which allowed me to assemble these:

Shouldn't the envelope have allowed you to go purchase or have in you possession "these"...

I don't know what to think anymore...Everyone is either miss-informed, or just doesn't care.

Posted: 7/23/2009 12:37:06 AM EDT

[#35]

I went the pistol route so i was able to use them while waiting for my stamp.

One part of me this these people should get busted. Why some people play by the rules and other don't. But then if people tart getting busted what kind of impact is that going to have on the view of and what happens to these rights.

Posted: 7/24/2009 3:32:36 PM EDT

[#36]

So having a pistol lower is cheap insurance.......but only ??insures?? "one" SBR upper?

2 problems I see though.......

1 If you have other AR's, they could potentially be made to SBR status in less than 30 sec....Hmmmmmm ??....(by the way , what is the time cut-off?......30 sec + yer good?)

2 I dont ever "intend" on putting a pistol upper on a rifle lower...EVER !! (unless the lower is registered SBR!).....so how can they prove intent whithout doin a Spock mind meld???

Has a decent law abiding citizen ever been busted in one of these above situations?

Posted: 7/24/2009 3:44:32 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
So having a pistol lower is cheap insurance.......but only ??insures?? "one" SBR upper?

2 problems I see though.......

1 If you have other AR's, they could potentially be made to SBR status in less than 30 sec....Hmmmmmm ??....(by the way , what is the time cut-off?......30 sec + yer good?)

2 I dont ever "intend" on putting a pistol upper on a rifle lower...EVER !! (unless the lower is registered SBR!).....so how can they prove intent whithout doin a Spock mind meld???

Has a decent law abiding citizen ever been busted in one of these above situations?

if the BATF can go into a business, such as Cav Arms, or other FFLs, and just take everything they have without charge or cause, they can do it to anyone at any time.

the point is, dont give them a reason to actually charge you for anything.

having a pistol lower would definately save you any trouble that could come from you having an SBR upper in your closet with an unapproved lower, or having too many sbr uppers and not enough registered lowers/ any incomplete non registered rifles with no 16''+ uppers. The best thing to do is not have them unless you absolutely should and can prove it

Posted: 7/24/2009 5:51:16 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So having a pistol lower is cheap insurance.......but only ??insures?? "one" SBR upper?

2 problems I see though.......

1 If you have other AR's, they could potentially be made to SBR status in less than 30 sec....Hmmmmmm ??....(by the way , what is the time cut-off?......30 sec + yer good?)

2 I dont ever "intend" on putting a pistol upper on a rifle lower...EVER !! (unless the lower is registered SBR!).....so how can they prove intent whithout doin a Spock mind meld???

Has a decent law abiding citizen ever been busted in one of these above situations?

if the BATF can go into a business, such as Cav Arms, or other FFLs, and just take everything they have without charge or cause, they can do it to anyone at any time.

the point is, dont give them a reason to actually charge you for anything.

having a pistol lower would definately save you any trouble that could come from you having an SBR upper in your closet with an unapproved lower, or having too many sbr uppers and not enough registered lowers/ any incomplete non registered rifles with no 16''+ uppers. The best thing to do is not have them unless you absolutely should and can prove it

I was under the assumption that you can have as many SBR uppers as long as you have a registered SBR lower..what if I hypothetically have a few SBR uppers with 1-2 SRB lowers and a few rifle lowers for future 16+ upper builds? Would I be in violation?

Posted: 7/24/2009 6:45:27 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So having a pistol lower is cheap insurance.......but only ??insures?? "one" SBR upper?

2 problems I see though.......

1 If you have other AR's, they could potentially be made to SBR status in less than 30 sec....Hmmmmmm ??....(by the way , what is the time cut-off?......30 sec + yer good?)

2 I dont ever "intend" on putting a pistol upper on a rifle lower...EVER !! (unless the lower is registered SBR!).....so how can they prove intent whithout doin a Spock mind meld???

Has a decent law abiding citizen ever been busted in one of these above situations?

if the BATF can go into a business, such as Cav Arms, or other FFLs, and just take everything they have without charge or cause, they can do it to anyone at any time.

the point is, dont give them a reason to actually charge you for anything.

having a pistol lower would definately save you any trouble that could come from you having an SBR upper in your closet with an unapproved lower, or having too many sbr uppers and not enough registered lowers/ any incomplete non registered rifles with no 16''+ uppers. The best thing to do is not have them unless you absolutely should and can prove it

I was under the assumption that you can have as many SBR uppers as long as you have a registered SBR lower..what if I hypothetically have a few SBR uppers with 1-2 SRB lowers and a few rifle lowers for future 16+ upper builds? Would I be in violation?

I believe ATF's answer would be, "Yes, you are committing a felony."

The odds of geting caught are slim. But if you do, as a convicted felon you'll never be able to own or even shoot a firearm again, for the rest of your life.

How much of a gambler are you?

Posted: 7/25/2009 9:52:28 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So having a pistol lower is cheap insurance.......but only ??insures?? "one" SBR upper?

2 problems I see though.......

1 If you have other AR's, they could potentially be made to SBR status in less than 30 sec....Hmmmmmm ??....(by the way , what is the time cut-off?......30 sec + yer good?)

2 I dont ever "intend" on putting a pistol upper on a rifle lower...EVER !! (unless the lower is registered SBR!).....so how can they prove intent whithout doin a Spock mind meld???

Has a decent law abiding citizen ever been busted in one of these above situations?

if the BATF can go into a business, such as Cav Arms, or other FFLs, and just take everything they have without charge or cause, they can do it to anyone at any time.

the point is, dont give them a reason to actually charge you for anything.

having a pistol lower would definately save you any trouble that could come from you having an SBR upper in your closet with an unapproved lower, or having too many sbr uppers and not enough registered lowers/ any incomplete non registered rifles with no 16''+ uppers. The best thing to do is not have them unless you absolutely should and can prove it

I was under the assumption that you can have as many SBR uppers as long as you have a registered SBR lower..what if I hypothetically have a few SBR uppers with 1-2 SRB lowers and a few rifle lowers for future 16+ upper builds? Would I be in violation?

I believe ATF's answer would be, "Yes, you are committing a felony."

The odds of geting caught are slim. But if you do, as a convicted felon you'll never be able to own or even shoot a firearm again, for the rest of your life.

How much of a gambler are you?

thanks Tony..BTW, I dont gamble..

Posted: 7/25/2009 10:33:31 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So having a pistol lower is cheap insurance.......but only ??insures?? "one" SBR upper?

2 problems I see though.......

1 If you have other AR's, they could potentially be made to SBR status in less than 30 sec....Hmmmmmm ??....(by the way , what is the time cut-off?......30 sec + yer good?)

2 I dont ever "intend" on putting a pistol upper on a rifle lower...EVER !! (unless the lower is registered SBR!).....so how can they prove intent whithout doin a Spock mind meld???

Ok guys, I've been following this cascading board for a bit now and have decided to throw in my 2 cents. This is how my SBR examiner explained it to me by email. She said you can have as many SBR'd uppers for one registered SBR lower as you want, however you must write a letter to the BATF, NFA Division Chief with your complete lower information as well as the new upper's caliber, barrel length and new overall weapon length with that particular barrel installed. You must send a letter with each new SBR upper that was not listed on you original Form 1.

Now also addressing the issue of having a non registered lower in the same safe/closet as your registered lower. I was concerned about this as well and she explained that as long as I have at least as many 16 inch uppers as non-registered lowers that i'd be fine if ever BATF decided to visit me. So if you have an SBR'd lower with two separate uppers for it, along with an unregistered lower, just make sure your unregistered lower(s) has the proper length uppers on it/them. Does this make sense? And make sure you keep the copies of the letters you send on your "new length uppers" you send to BATF as proof. Also just a side note, the examiner said BATF will send an acknowledgement letter to your letters but are currently about 18 months behind on them so it is imperative you keep your copy, just in case you ever get visited by BATF. I also send my "letters of adjustment" by priority mail and keep my tracking receipt with my copy as proof of the date i sent the letter just in case Big Brother ever decides to visit me. I know a lot of guys say this is unnecessary or not required but I got it straight from the horse's mouth and have decided it's better to be safe than sorry brother.

Hope this helps,

Bravo
1*
Has a decent law abiding citizen ever been busted in one of these above situations?

if the BATF can go into a business, such as Cav Arms, or other FFLs, and just take everything they have without charge or cause, they can do it to anyone at any time.

the point is, dont give them a reason to actually charge you for anything.

having a pistol lower would definately save you any trouble that could come from you having an SBR upper in your closet with an unapproved lower, or having too many sbr uppers and not enough registered lowers/ any incomplete non registered rifles with no 16''+ uppers. The best thing to do is not have them unless you absolutely should and can prove it

I was under the assumption that you can have as many SBR uppers as long as you have a registered SBR lower..what if I hypothetically have a few SBR uppers with 1-2 SRB lowers and a few rifle lowers for future 16+ upper builds? Would I be in violation?

I believe ATF's answer would be, "Yes, you are committing a felony."

The odds of geting caught are slim. But if you do, as a convicted felon you'll never be able to own or even shoot a firearm again, for the rest of your life.

How much of a gambler are you?

thanks Tony..BTW, I dont gamble..

Posted: 7/25/2009 10:35:46 AM EDT

[#42]

Hey guys I screwed up my last post, but if you look at the post right above this one, my response is there. I don't claim to know it all but I got the info straight from my Form 1 examiner. Sorry for the screw up but I didn't want to re-type that entire response.

Posted: 7/25/2009 10:38:33 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So having a pistol lower is cheap insurance.......but only ??insures?? "one" SBR upper?

2 problems I see though.......

1 If you have other AR's, they could potentially be made to SBR status in less than 30 sec....Hmmmmmm ??....(by the way , what is the time cut-off?......30 sec + yer good?)

2 I dont ever "intend" on putting a pistol upper on a rifle lower...EVER !! (unless the lower is registered SBR!).....so how can they prove intent whithout doin a Spock mind meld???

Ok guys, I've been following this cascading board for a bit now and have decided to throw in my 2 cents. This is how my SBR examiner explained it to me by email. She said you can have as many SBR'd uppers for one registered SBR lower as you want, however you must write a letter to the BATF, NFA Division Chief with your complete lower information as well as the new upper's caliber, barrel length and new overall weapon length with that particular barrel installed. You must send a letter with each new SBR upper that was not listed on you original Form 1.

Now also addressing the issue of having a non registered lower in the same safe/closet as your registered lower. I was concerned about this as well and she explained that as long as I have at least as many 16 inch uppers as non-registered lowers that i'd be fine if ever BATF decided to visit me. So if you have an SBR'd lower with two separate uppers for it, along with an unregistered lower, just make sure your unregistered lower(s) has the proper length uppers on it/them. Does this make sense? And make sure you keep the copies of the letters you send on your "new length uppers" you send to BATF as proof. Also just a side note, the examiner said BATF will send an acknowledgement letter to your letters but are currently about 18 months behind on them so it is imperative you keep your copy, just in case you ever get visited by BATF. I also send my "letters of adjustment" by priority mail and keep my tracking receipt with my copy as proof of the date i sent the letter just in case Big Brother ever decides to visit me. I know a lot of guys say this is unnecessary or not required but I got it straight from the horse's mouth and have decided it's better to be safe than sorry brother.

Hope this helps,

Bravo
1*
Has a decent law abiding citizen ever been busted in one of these above situations?

if the BATF can go into a business, such as Cav Arms, or other FFLs, and just take everything they have without charge or cause, they can do it to anyone at any time.

the point is, dont give them a reason to actually charge you for anything.

having a pistol lower would definately save you any trouble that could come from you having an SBR upper in your closet with an unapproved lower, or having too many sbr uppers and not enough registered lowers/ any incomplete non registered rifles with no 16''+ uppers. The best thing to do is not have them unless you absolutely should and can prove it

I was under the assumption that you can have as many SBR uppers as long as you have a registered SBR lower..what if I hypothetically have a few SBR uppers with 1-2 SRB lowers and a few rifle lowers for future 16+ upper builds? Would I be in violation?

I believe ATF's answer would be, "Yes, you are committing a felony."

The odds of geting caught are slim. But if you do, as a convicted felon you'll never be able to own or even shoot a firearm again, for the rest of your life.

How much of a gambler are you?

thanks Tony..BTW, I dont gamble..

Hey guys, i've been fucking up my posts by the numbers. Forgive me. But my response accidently got posted in the middle of this cascading thread. It got lumped in with DIRTBIKES AND GUNS post. My response starts with OK GUYS.......
Sorry for the mistake, my bad.

Posted: 7/25/2009 10:48:26 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Hey guys I screwed up my last post, but if you look at the post right above this one, my response is there. I don't claim to know it all but I got the info straight from my Form 1 examiner. Sorry for the screw up but I didn't want to re-type that entire response.

That may be what your examiner said ... but the U.S. Supreme Court feels differently.

Check out U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., - U.S.- (1992)

Here's firearms attorney/guru James Bardwell's summary. Read the part I put in red:

U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., - U.S.- (1992)
This is another recent examination of the meaning of the language of the NFA by the Supreme Court, along with Staples. Neither involves constitutional law. In this case the court was called upon to decide what constituted a short barreled rifle. T/C wanted to market a kit consisting of one receiver for their Contender gun, a 16"+ barrel, a >16" barrel, a pistol grip and a shoulder stock. This kit could be used, as intended, to assemble a rifle or a pistol, or it could also be used to assemble a SBR. As it could be so used, ATF decided it was a SBR. T/C made one unit on a Form 1, then sued for a tax refund, claiming it wasn't subject to the NFA. This is the way to challenge such a classification. Doing the thing York or SWD did, in those cases, is an invitation to a prosecution. The Staples case will limit such things, but one can easily lose....Here all that was at stake was money. The court decided that the language of the definition of a SBR was vague, and gave it the reading most favorable to the taxpayer, T/C. They decided the kit was not a SBR, nor was any set of parts where they could be used for a legitimate purpose, even if they could also be used to assemble a SBR. However a SBR fully assembled was also clearly a SBR. Thus the other grey area was a SBR in parts form, like an Uzi carbine and a Uzi SMG barrel. A lower court had held in a prior case that that set of parts was a SBR. The court agreed; that if the parts had only one use, to make a SBR, and a person possessed them all that was a SBR also.

This is why it's OK to own complete regular ARs when you also own a registered SBR with more than one SBR-length upper: You have all the parts to assemble them in a legal configuration.

But if you have extra SBR-length uppers and extra lowers without 16"+ uppers, you have all the parts needed to assemble unregistered SBRs, yet at the same time you do not have all the parts neccessary to assemble them in a legal configuration.

And that is bad juju.

If the Supreme Court says something is not legal, I would not want to be facing felony charges and stake my entire defense on an email from an NFA examiner.

Posted: 7/25/2009 1:47:54 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hey guys I screwed up my last post, but if you look at the post right above this one, my response is there. I don't claim to know it all but I got the info straight from my Form 1 examiner. Sorry for the screw up but I didn't want to re-type that entire response.

That may be what your examiner said ... but the U.S. Supreme Court feels differently.

Check out U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., - U.S.- (1992)

Here's firearms attorney/guru James Bardwell's summary. Read the part I put in red:

U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., - U.S.- (1992)
This is another recent examination of the meaning of the language of the NFA by the Supreme Court, along with Staples. Neither involves constitutional law. In this case the court was called upon to decide what constituted a short barreled rifle. T/C wanted to market a kit consisting of one receiver for their Contender gun, a 16"+ barrel, a >16" barrel, a pistol grip and a shoulder stock. This kit could be used, as intended, to assemble a rifle or a pistol, or it could also be used to assemble a SBR. As it could be so used, ATF decided it was a SBR. T/C made one unit on a Form 1, then sued for a tax refund, claiming it wasn't subject to the NFA. This is the way to challenge such a classification. Doing the thing York or SWD did, in those cases, is an invitation to a prosecution. The Staples case will limit such things, but one can easily lose....Here all that was at stake was money. The court decided that the language of the definition of a SBR was vague, and gave it the reading most favorable to the taxpayer, T/C. They decided the kit was not a SBR, nor was any set of parts where they could be used for a legitimate purpose, even if they could also be used to assemble a SBR. However a SBR fully assembled was also clearly a SBR. Thus the other grey area was a SBR in parts form, like an Uzi carbine and a Uzi SMG barrel. A lower court had held in a prior case that that set of parts was a SBR. The court agreed; that if the parts had only one use, to make a SBR, and a person possessed them all that was a SBR also.

This is why it's OK to own complete regular ARs when you also own a registered SBR with more than one SBR-length upper: You have all the parts to assemble them in a legal configuration.

But if you have extra SBR-length uppers and extra lowers without 16"+ uppers, you have all the parts needed to assemble unregistered SBRs, yet at the same time you do not have all the parts neccessary to assemble them in a legal configuration.

And that is bad juju.

If the Supreme Court says something is not legal, I would not want to be facing felony charges and stake my entire defense on an email from an NFA examiner.

I'll buy that. Sounds good to me.

Posted: 7/25/2009 9:00:23 PM EDT

[#46]

When the Men in Black visit my house, bust down the door................. I'll sit them down in front of my computer, show them this thread and everything will be alright

...........Well ,except for the front door.......and my stained underwear......?....While their not looking, I'll hide my existing stamps...claim ignorance...and see if they have a sense of humor

All reg lowers are spoken for.......the 10.5 upper sits on a pistol lower waiting for the mailman to bring the special $200 envelope.......

Posted: 7/26/2009 10:48:51 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
When the Men in Black visit my house, bust down the door................. I'll sit them down in front of my computer, show them this thread and everything will be alright

...........Well ,except for the front door.......and my stained underwear......?....While their not looking, I'll hide my existing stamps...claim ignorance...and see if they have a sense of humor

All reg lowers are spoken for.......the 10.5 upper sits on a pistol lower waiting for the mailman to bring the special $200 envelope.......

That sounds best man. Try to keep it as simple as possible.

Posted: 7/31/2009 10:23:37 PM EDT

[#48]

In response to viper4243...

Yes, it bugs me. For a few reasons.

First, I think is sends a bad message to anti gun (not to mention anti-NFA) folks if people scoff the written NFA laws. Retarded as they may be, they can be, and on occasion are enforced. I will admit that mistakes are made, and people unwittingly but a SBR upper and then realize the "rules". After the panic buying slowed, I saw a TON of SBR upper for sale everywhere. Was it n00bs who didn't know and suddenly needed to unload an upper in exchange for a 16in? Was it dealers who didn't educate the n00bs and just wanted a sale (and by dealer, I mean shady gunshow "dealer")? Or was it people that could give two shits about the ATF and NFA?

The sheer number of "stamp came today, slapped this together for a pic" posts is astounding. I can buy the "it was pistol lower" argument for some, and even the "it was at my buddies house" defense...but come on...do you really thing everyone did everything by the book, and why would you post that on a public forum anyway? At least these folks have a stamp. I'm sure there are a great many SBRs out there that the owner of which are blissfully unaware of the NFA and how it works.

The NFA is a hassle, but when one person gets hooked up for "constructive intent" or possessing an illegal SBR how long before the NFA plug is pulled? Tony has posted example in previous posts. The ATF doesn't care if you "thought it was kosher"....they can and will ruin your day.

I am currently awaiting my stamp, and have no intention of buying or possessing a short upper until it arrives.

I'm done, I promise.

Here's my SBR:

Posted: 7/31/2009 10:54:50 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
In response to viper4243...

Yes, it bugs me. For a few reasons.

First, I think is sends a bad message to anti gun (not to mention anti-NFA) folks if people scoff the written NFA laws. Retarded as they may be, they can be, and on occasion are enforced. I will admit that mistakes are made, and people unwittingly but a SBR upper and then realize the "rules". After the panic buying slowed, I saw a TON of SBR upper for sale everywhere. Was it n00bs who didn't know and suddenly needed to unload an upper in exchange for a 16in? Was it dealers who didn't educate the n00bs and just wanted a sale (and by dealer, I mean shady gunshow "dealer")? Or was it people that could give two shits about the ATF and NFA?

The sheer number of "stamp came today, slapped this together for a pic" posts is astounding. I can buy the "it was pistol lower" argument for some, and even the "it was at my buddies house" defense...but come on...do you really thing everyone did everything by the book, and why would you post that on a public forum anyway? At least these folks have a stamp. I'm sure there are a great many SBRs out there that the owner of which are blissfully unaware of the NFA and how it works.

The NFA is a hassle, but when one person gets hooked up for "constructive intent" or possessing an illegal SBR how long before the NFA plug is pulled? Tony has posted example in previous posts. The ATF doesn't care if you "thought it was kosher"....they can and will ruin your day.

I am currently awaiting my stamp, and have no intention of buying or possessing a short upper until it arrives.

I'm done, I promise.

Here's my SBR:

http://i30.tinypic.com/281wsip.jpg

I wasn't complaining, i just noticed a few posts on different threads by you on this. I completely agree with everything your saying though. Somebody is going to fuck it up for a lot of people.

Nice!, i went with a RRA for my SBR too. Now kinda wishing i went with a billet lower though, considering im going to have it for probably the rest of my life.

So what upper do you PLAN on buying?

Posted: 7/31/2009 11:01:03 PM EDT

[#50]

It's gonna be a KISS SBR. Probably just an LMT upper, flip up PRI, EoTech and ARMS 40... I might not even do rails.

It's gonna be a work horse, not a safe queen. The second SBR however....

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - School me on SBR's (Page 1 of 2)

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