I'll also ask this in the reloading forum, but I figured that there'd be more people here that have done this in the past.  
I have heard of it being done, but not directly from someone who did it themselves.  I have heard of using faster burning pistol powder.  Anybody have any direct experience on this?

everything that i have heard has said just to get a suppressed 22 kit...you will lose all velocity and it will be the same as shooting a 22...

this is what i have heard...

hodgdon has two loads listed on their website.  I am thinking about trying them, but haven't gotten around to it.

Pretty much if you are shooting a 55 grain at 1000 FPS, why the effort.  You will quickly pay for a ciener or a dedicated upper like spikes if you just buy the 550 rounds of 22lr for $10 at wal-mart vs. reloading components

I think Trail Boss might work, but I don't have QuickLoad yet, so I can't say definitively.

I have tried the Hodgdon Titegroup load (3.1 grains and a 55 grain FMJ) and had very erratic velocities.  There was up to a 100fps difference in velocity between shots when the barrel was lifted up versus tilted down (powder near the bullet and powder near the primer).  There is such small powder charge in the case that the powder can move all over the place.  If powder position is kept constant, velocities were relatively consistent (around 30 fps variance).

When I loaded test rounds, I started at .3 grains above their load and worked down in .1 grain increments.  Out of my 16" 1/7 twist, 3.2 grains with the powder next to the primer was at about 1050 fps.  When I went to 3.1 grains, I stuck a bullet in the barrel.  It stopped just after the gas port and the rifle actually ejected the case.  I didn't have a rod with me at the range, so I didn't test the rest of the 3.1 grain load.  On a side note, the stuck bullet was actually very easy to push out with a rod when I got home.

As far as sound on the rounds that were subsonic, they sounded great.  I was shooting through a 16" barrel and SRT Hurricane and they sounded better than my 10/22 with a Cheyenne XL.  All in all, loading the subsonics was more of a pain in the ass than its worth.  ETA more of a pain versus just shooting subsonic .22LR.

-John

Quoted: ... There is such small powder charge in the case that the powder can move all over the place.  If powder position is kept constant, velocities were relatively consistent ... -John

I have heard of people using cream-of-wheat (dry) as a spacer for this, but I haven't tried that. either...

I have also considered loading molly coated rounds.  Might be able to get more consistent velocities.  The cream of wheat thing sounds interesting.

Quoted: hodgdon has two loads listed on their website.  I am thinking about trying them, but haven't gotten around to it. Pretty much if you are shooting a 55 grain at 1000 FPS, why the effort.  You will quickly pay for a ciener or a dedicated upper like spikes if you just buy the 550 rounds of 22lr for $10 at wal-mart vs. reloading components

The Walmart Federal 550 .22LR for $11.95 is NOT subsonic. However, you can get a brick (500) of the Remington Subsonic .22LR for $32.95

Quoted: The Walmart Federal 550 .22LR for $11.95 is NOT subsonic. However, you can get a brick (500) of the Remington Subsonic .22LR for $32.95

Seems close enough out of my 5" brl.

Quoted: Quoted: The Walmart Federal 550 .22LR for $11.95 is NOT subsonic. However, you can get a brick (500) of the Remington Subsonic .22LR for $32.95 Seems close enough out of my 5" brl. i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg166/dan_ak105/th_100_2331.jpg

5" barrel, true.  most 22lr ammo will stay subsonic
but bulkpack wont on a 16" barrel

Quoted: I have tried the Hodgdon Titegroup load (3.1 grains and a 55 grain FMJ) and had very erratic velocities.  There was up to a 100fps difference in velocity between shots when the barrel was lifted up versus tilted down (powder near the bullet and powder near the primer).   might want to switch to magnum primers and reduce the load a bit.  I have found this to help when using 3g of unique in a 30-06 case with a 180g cast bullet. Much stabler vel. -John

I have using 55 gr HPBT GameKings and TrailBoss.  It gave good results but like everyone has stated, stick with a .22 for this application.  If you are doing it as an educational exercise, great, have fun.  If you are looking for practical results, move on, there are none.

In my opinion, TrailBoss is the only option.  I have seen a couple of bulged barrels from the pistol powders.  One was a very good friend of mine who should have known better.  You just can't get any stability with such low load densities when using pistol powders.

Who makes TrailBoss?  I've never heard of it.  Is it a fast burning rifle powder?

Quoted: Who makes TrailBoss?  I've never heard of it.  Is it a fast burning rifle powder?

IMR.  It's a fluffy, low power powder for cowboy action loads.  Six grains will pretty much fill a .223 case.

Quoted: Quoted: Who makes TrailBoss?  I've never heard of it.  Is it a fast burning rifle powder? IMR.  It's a fluffy, low power powder for cowboy action loads.  Six grains will pretty much fill a .223 case.

Wait, someone already recommended this...

In my experience, a case filling load is also supersonic. I think 5 grains is what I came up with for a sub load.

Buy a Ciener Kit and some Remington or CCI subsonics and there you have a subsonic .224 bullet.

Only difference between a sub .22lr and a sub .223 is about 15 grains of weight.  Subsonic .22lr is cheaper than loading the .223 to subsonic as well.  

Besides if its sub .22lr it will eject the case, sub .223 won't eject a case(from my experience)

-TS

In order for the action to cycle properly with sub-sonic loads, your buffer spring needs to be changed out for a softer spring (I think that the spring designed for the 300 whisper would work fine).  

If I could find a sharp pointed FMJ or SS109 style 22lr round in the 62 gr. ballpark I would go for the conversion.  With a subsonic round, you lose the hyperstatic shock of the bullet hitting the target.   The next best thing that I can hope to achieve from a sub-sonic round is deep penetration and accuracy.

That TrailBoss powder sounds like it would work well.  I'm going to look for a jug of it!

Quoted: In order for the action to cycle properly with sub-sonic loads, your buffer spring needs to be changed out for a softer spring (I think that the spring designed for the 300 whisper would work fine).   If I could find a sharp pointed FMJ or SS109 style 22lr round in the 62 gr. ballpark I would go for the conversion.  With a subsonic round, you lose the hyperstatic shock of the bullet hitting the target.   The next best thing that I can hope to achieve from a sub-sonic round is deep penetration and accuracy. That TrailBoss powder sounds like it would work well.  I'm going to look for a jug of it!

The is no special spring for the .300 Whisper.  Also you get into stability problems with the heavy bullets and if they are turned around, which will help, then there is the potential for feeding issues.

Yes.
I have loaded subsonic .223.
I posted all about HERE

Here was my final post on the thread:

Ok, probably the last installment in this thread.

I loaded up 50 rounds of the 77 grain SMK over 5.8 grains of Trail Boss. I fired it through the same rifle and suppressor. Local temperature was about 105 degrees.
I fired 10 rounds through the chrono and got an average velocity of 1072 fps. Right about where I wanted it. Just below the speed of sound. It looks like my fastest shot was 1117 fps and the slowest shot was 1032 fps.
At this point, I packed up the chrono and went over to the benchrest range. I wanted to see what kind of accuracy this load gave me as well as to see where this load hit in relation to regular supersonic ammo.
I was using an ACOG TA31F (zeroed with 55 grain bullets) and a bipod with a rear sandbag.
At 25 yards, using the 500 meter reticle on the ACOG, the point of impact was about 1/2" low. The group was one hole.
At 50 yards, using the 500 meter reticle te point of impact was right on the money with a group that could easily be covered by a dime.
At 100 yards, using the 600 meter reticle this gave me a fairly large group approx. centered on the bull. Between the 50 yard test and the 100 yard test the wind picked up big time and at 100 yards this load was severely effected by the wind. I would say the bullets were blowing about 4" at that range.
I will load another 50, hopefully tonight and run some more accuracy tests to firm everything up.

I would say this little test was a huge success. I found a good subsonic load using a good heavy bullet. The powder provided a case filled over 50% with powder. The load is very accurate and the report is absolutely Hollywood quiet.

This has been covered countless times before, but IMO the people who are talking about buying a .22 conversion kit instead of loading subsonic .223 have totally missed the point.
IMO, the idea is that you can have a .223 rifle and everything that offers and in a second or two, do a mag change and have a nearly silent rifle. For whatever purpose you envision. It could be that you are walking around with a standard AR15/M16 rifle loaded for anti-personal use. You see a small game animal you want to eat. You do a quick mag change and you are good to go with a subsonic, nearly silent load. It could be that you are on a tactical team and you want to silence a dog. You arn't going to change your upper and the magazine. You simply change mags or insert one round into the chamber of the rifle you are using for everything else and make the shot. It could be that you are some bad ass "operator" who might need to make the absolute quietest possible shot and you arn't going to hump around mutiple guns or multiple uppers. You have one weapon and you have to use it for whatever comes along. You can carry a mag of subsonic ammo or a few rounds of subsonic ammo in your pocket. If you are in a situation where you want the quietest possible shot, you put a round into the chamber and you are good to go. I can assure you that a head shot with a 77 grain bullet at 1100 fps is going to get the job done at reasonable distances. Hell, you might just be a guy that wants to dust an annoying animal out in your yard. You don't want to buy a $700 upper and all that shit. You want to use what you already have.  Yet another use for subsonic .223 is simply the fact that you might enjoy playing with guns/ammo/handloading. You own a .223 suppressor and want to make subsonic .223 ammo for no reason other than the fact that you can. Why wouldn't you ?

Of course if you are looking for inexpensive practice with a carbine then that is a completely different issue. Then a .22 conversion is the only way to go.
I don't see where one is a substitute for the other or how both are even mentioned in the same thread. If I want to shoot a .22, I have .22s for that purpose. If I want to shoot suppressed .22s I have four. This isn't about shooting .22s. This is about subsonic .223.

Another often see comment in these threads is: "Isn't subsonic .223 just the same thing as a .22LR ?".    I guess it is. If your .22LR is shooing a 77 grain jacketed, boat tailed, hollow point match bullet then it is exactly the same thing.

Basically the only difference between this load I posted about and your standard garden variety Walmart .22LR  is that the bullet is TWICE AS HEAVY.  Other than that, yeah, it's just like a .22LR.  

I guess I should also post the disclaimer I posted over on that other board:
Let me state for the record that I have no idea if these loads are safe or not. This is just something I am making up as I go along. I don't work at a powder/bullet company. I don't work at a ballistics lab. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I am simply pouring powder in cases and seating bullets. I have no way to measure pressure etc. The only indication I have that this is safe is the fact that I fired them and nothing untoward happened. Use any of this information at your own risk. I sometimes read articles and posts that end with the warning that these loads are safe in their guns but they might NOT be safe in your guns. I am telling you right up front that I dont' know if these loads ARE safe in MY guns, let alone yours.

THANK YOU!!!  I couldn't have said it better.  

the problem with subsonic 223 is barrel twist. I recall a conversation I had many years ago with JD Jones re his 22 whisper (22hornet case in a 10" contender -- he never advertised it). He said that at 1000fps he could only manage a 223 bullet of the length of the 69g mk with a 1-7 twist barrel -- note I said length, not weight as there 223 bullets that are heaver than 69 grains that are not as long.  The notion (posted above) of using a 77g matchking backwards to stabilize it is interesting. May have to try that sometime.

I have some 100 grain bullets in .223 that I briefly played around with. I never got past the inital few test loads before I lost interest in it.
I guess I will have to figure out where I put them and start over. If you read that thread you will see that my testing was a failure and I gave up on it. I was getting a few rounds out of 10 that were markedly faster than the others. You might fire 8 rounds that were perfect then have 2 that were supersonic. I never figured out why I couldn't get uniform velocities.

Started a thread about it: HERE


FWIW: I was on a kick for loading subsonic .223 for a month or so and I tried a bunch of different bullets. I never used any gimmicks of any kind. I never lubed the bore or the bullets, I never used any kind of fillers, I never loaded bullets backwards, I never enlarged primer flash holes.
In the little bit of testing I did, none of that was nessessary.

You know, this whole field of handloading (subsonic loads) is something that really needs to be explored. The major bullet and powder manufacturers need to get on board and do some real, and serious testing in this arena.

Gun magazines such as Handloader need to start publishing articles on this subject. If you ever read that magazine you will see that the same tired old subjects are discussed every month for the last 30 years. Cast bullet loads for revolvers. Deer and elk hunting loads for every centerfire rifle under the sun complete with pictures of the author posing with a dead deer.
How about doing something new for once ? How about a subject that is probably the least known topic in handloading instead of the best known topic in handloading ? We all know about Elmer Keith's load for .44 mag. We have been reading about it in every handloading publication since we got into handloading. Why do you insist on going over this same information every month when there are exciting new projects to undertake ?
I guess I know the real answer to that question: because they are FUDDs.

Quoted:... if you just buy the 550 rounds of 22lr for $10 at wal-mart vs. reloading components

I wish it was only $10! It's still plenty cheap at $13.8x, though.

jonblack

To all of you in this thread that insisted that buying a 22lr conversion kit was the way to go...put this in your pipe and smoke it:



I picked up my suppressor a few days ago.  I loaded up some SS109's (62 gr. solid steel core with copper jacket) with 5.6 grains of trailboss.  This was a subsonic load at about 980 fps.  I was able to punch through a 6" wooden fence post.  Let see you do that with even a supersonic 22lr!  The groups were the size of a grape @ 50 yards and about the size of an orange at 100 with good penetration.  The action does not cycle with this load.  I need to change out the buffer spring with a lighter spring to allow the action to cycle.

Not bagging on your post, just a question. Is that load position sensitive? I would think that you would get very different results shooting downhill vs uphill vs level with only 5.6 grains of powder in that big of a case. I would like to try it though :)



 

While not with .223, I tested .308 loads using 170 flat nose bullets and Trailboss. I shot 5 round through the chrono at the same target by 1. tipping the bullet down so that powder would shift forward, 2. tipping it up so the powder wouls shift back, and 3. shaking it back and forth to settle it horizontal in the case.

I saw no considerable difference in velocity or in impact with the powder in any position.

Keep in mind that TB fills the case more than any other powder, so I expect that has a major role in the consistency seen.

Trailboss is used exactly for that reason. It looks like a whole bunch of little tiny cheerios and takes up a lot of room.  If you read the thread you'll see that 5.6 grains fills the case to a little over half full.  I didn't shoot through the crono yet, but judging by accuracy of the load, I imagine that velocities will be pretty consistent.

Interesting!

Told ya

I guess every once in awhile you CAN lead a horse to water AND make him drink.

Thank you for your input earlier in the post!  When I started this post I was really hoping someone like you, that had tried it in the past, would post up!  Thanks again.

I did the same test and found no significant difference either.

This has been mentioned over and over but, what the hell: Trailboss fills the case with as much volume of powder as any other load. When I was playing around with those 100 grain bullets I actually had a compressed load trying to get enough powder in the case to get the bullet up close to supersonic speed using Trail Boss.  In other threads, on other boards when discussing this topic, there were some people who I simply could not get to understand this simple fact. Their mind couldn't think outside the box: low velocity HAS to mean that you don't have much powder volume in the case. No matter how many times I tried to explain it, they couldn't punch in.

I tried some Trailboss and it's great.  Do you guys use a powder measure?  The powder is so light it's hard to get it all out.

Nope, I use an RCBS chargemaster...an electronic digital powder dispenser.  Works awesome!

Very cool, thanks guys I'm going to try it! I assumed that 5.6 grs wouldn't nearly fill the case.