Ok, so say you are already in the military or you get drafted - which pistol would you take with you when they deploy you to Somalia and other mid eastern/african countries? and why ?

I'd take my SIG 229 in .40  because it's not too big, yet still shoots a mean skinny-stopping round (although it'd be nice if it held a few more). . . plus its the only semi-auto pistol I have besides my mint Series 70 Colt 1911 and I ain't taking that over there so some wired Skinny can pry it out of my cold dead hands and shoot one of you guys with it.

Contest rules:  winner is selected by me based upon my personal like or dislike of the winner's answer.

One entry only.  Hint - looking for the most creative answer that's not stupid or ridiculously impossible.

Winner gets . . . . a free set of my famous AR15 stickers.

Contest ends on Sunday at 12:00pm or whenever I get to my computer before I go back to work on Monday.  

Para P14 Ltd Black
4 spare mags
pay me.
cpermd

Quoted: Ok, so say you are already in the military or you get drafted - which pistol would you take with you when they deploy you to Somalia and other mid eastern/african countries? and why ? I'd take my SIG 229 in .40  because it's not too big, yet still shoots a mean skinny-stopping round (although it'd be nice if it held a few more). . . plus its the only semi-auto pistol I have besides my mint Series 70 Colt 1911 and I ain't taking that over there so some wired Skinny can pry it out of my cold dead hands and shoot one of you guys with it. Contest rules:  winner is selected by me based upon my personal like or dislike of the winner's answer. One entry only.  Hint - looking for the most creative answer that's not stupid or ridiculously impossible. Winner gets . . . . a free set of my famous AR15 stickers. Contest ends on Sunday at 12:00pm or whenever I get to my computer before I go back to work on Monday.

I will also take a Sig Sauer but a 226. After seeing BlackHawk Down, I want a sidearm that I am good at and has the most rounds/mag. If I have to go, I would like to take as many of them as I possibly can.

The Sig 226 if I could get the 20 rnd "swat mag" that Sig made; and I would carry many if possible. My second choice would be the 45 USP with 12 rnds. Sure it has less rnds but throws twice the lead with each shot.

well. guess id be stuck with what they issue me...which in todays Army is the Beretta 92fs (M9)

id prefer a good old 1911a1 but the availability of .45 ammo overseas would be scarce...soooo id probably (if i had a choice) a browning high power in 9mm (battle proven and caliber chosen because of the availability of 9mm ammo)

STI Edge 40
True HK powder coat
4-mags
And never having to use it!!!!!!

ok i changed my mind...gotta go with the tactical nuke mini delivery system

H&K USP in .40, with lots of LEO mags (obviously)
The thing is 100% reliable, more accurate than most can shoot, and even with mil-issue ball ammo it has enough ass behind it to keep a skinny down.

I like the idea of the tactical USP in .45, but in that situation magazine capacity would be an issue, even with the .45's superior knock down power.

On the flipside, the USP in 9mm would be good because of the availability of ammo (the somali's would likely have some in their hand weapons) and the high capacity a man could carry with him, as well as in the weapon. But 9mm is far weaker than either the .40 or the .45, so you'd end up wasting your capacity advantage by having to use more rounds to stop an attacker, especially one who's high on khat.

The USP .40 is the way to go! But I'm biased, I love those handguns.

I would take my Glock 23 which is also a 40.  It has a good knock down power, is built like a tank and besides; its largest handgun caliber that I have.  Bigger is better right?

I thought about my Ruger Mark II with a red dot scope, but I think that I would piss somebody off if I shot them!!

Quoted: Virtually no soldiers get to make this choice.  When you're in the military, you use issued weapons.  Elite units may have a few models to choose from, but even then, they must be issue weapons. -Troy

That is why I think a M9 with planty of 20 rd mag, the best choice.

But than again if you can get a Steyr TMP
......
A Compact SMG will be your best choice.


"LEO" Mag in  Somalia?

<<<Sarcasm mode ON>>>
I wouldnt take a sidearm. guns are bad. They should all be sent to the bottom of the ocean after being chopped into little pieces then melted down into artificial reefs for the fishies. But only after we ban them all, then prosecute gun owners.
<<<Sarcasm mode OFF>>>

I would have to go with the HK MK23.  It has the .45 stopping power, large and reliable (one of the most tested handguns ever), a silencer could be easily added, looks extremely intimidating, lights and lasers can easily be added, low recoil, and most of all its HK  Ohh and if you run out of ammo you can club people with it.

Glock 17L with a stainless aftermarket barrel, maybe some dual recoil springs, if I could get one that would work, night sights and a 5.5 pound trigger.  Oh, yeah, grip reduction, maybe even custom molded finger grooves, though not a soldiers budget.

Then I'd get a couple 33rd. mags, and 1 17rd. with a base pad to add 2 or 3 more.  

Lots of skinnies out there, wouldn't want one to get left out.

schapman43:

The SOCOM Offensive Handcannon?  World's only crew served pistol?  Holy cow Batman!!  The intimidation value!!  

Due to its size and weight, it is the most effective club of all the pistols. With the suppressor, even better than the Desert Eagle .50 and it shoots the same round as the Lightweight Officer's Model!

Hey, kidding guys, pick what you want.  Just my .02, YMMV.

cpermed:

I think you are on the right track.

why, the mp5k of course!
it was nicknamed the "skinny popper" during the '93 conflict.
where are my stickers???

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and go with.......

Browning Hi-Power n 9mm. First of all, say what you want about the stopping power of 9mm (and that can be debated of course) but the 9mm round is standard issue. A BIG factor for resupply. Sure you may favor .40 cal or .45, but if you can't get any more ammo you're crap out of luck.

Secondly, hi-cap mags. Take your choice. Factory 13 round clips, or the SA Police 17 rounders.

As far as reliability, I've never had mine jam or malfunction in anyway. And from what I understand, I'm not the only one.

Also, of all the pistols I've shot, it fits me the best. Another BIG factor.






And last but not least.......

.....because it's not an HK or a Sig.

I like the knock-down power of the .45 ACP, however my Beretta M9 would have to be my choice.  

Reason Number One - The M9's high capacity magazines not only mean less down time spent reloading.  Hi-caps also "carry better" - in that you can store more ammo easier in your LBE or LBV.

Reason Number Two - Availability of ammo.

Reason Number Three - I can simply shoot better with the M9.

Reason Number Four - It's double action.

Reason Number Five - I really like the nylon Bianchi holster and mag pouch!

I would take my (pre-ban of course)Marksman Co2 pistol and a whole buttload of Co2 & pellets. That way, I could get to shoot them bastard skinnies a whole buncha times before they took the "big ride".

That pistol has killed more living things than all my other guns combined over the years. Mice, birds, big ass bumble bees and various other dangerous skinnies. It's a "war machine", right along with my plastic, sand filled grenades.

yep, My marksman is up to the job, and they'll have to pry  it from my cold, dead, fingers!

ESP,

This is an against other troops, with flak-jackets helmets etc. scenario – right?

Then, a FN5seveN – and their P90 if given the option.

If I went and was allowed to take my personel pistol, I'd take my Wilson CQB. Just stock up on some surplus mil ammo before going.
Why the 1911? I went through 4 major conflicts and has been proven in every climate on earth.
Plus it's green and black and matches my cammies!!

The availability of 9mm around the world would dictate that it should be a 9mm, even though I do prefer the .40.

take a steyr spp. the civilian version of the tmp.  it will fit in a holster because it has no vertical front grip.  it is semi auto so you dont spray all your ammo away in 3 seconds.  it is 9mm para, so availability of ammo will be excellent.  it balances well and is quite acurate from what ive read (i dont have one by the way, im too poor)  30 rnd mags.  built in flash hider so it doesnt blind you at night when the "skinnies" come out.  nice and intimidating looking.  sheer coolness factor.  and it doubles as a cheese grater if you know how to use it right.

I am taking a loose interpretation of side arm... double barrel 12 gauge sawed off. Call it a skinny skinner.

i know this sounds silly but i would take a model of pistol that the indiginous personel were using.  why???  

1 lots of ammo around
2 spare parts
3 extra mags

all this stuff could be collected off the town or off of bodies

Well, Bearing in mind the fact that a handgun is a survival kit, meant to give you the time to either unass the AO on get you hands on a long weapon. Remember that once you are make that rifle/pistol transition, That it is truly Alamo time baby. The pistol would also be used in tight confined spaces.

Personaly, My pick would be my .45 Glock 21 W/tritium nitesites, a Arotek slide release, Harrts recoil reducer, and grip plug.

Frankly, Somolia was not the first time that U.S. troops had a run in with drug crazed natives. Thats what .45 was designed for, way back when.

Assuming here that we can get away with bringing our own side arm in the first place, then I'm working on the assumption that there would be no problem sticking 5 loaded 13 round mags and 4 50 round boxes of ammo in with my kit. I see no reason to worry about more pistol ammo than that, because frankly you would be lucky to live long enough to fire half those mags in close combat conditions that required pistol transition,

While I have more Sexy modern pistols, That .45 Glock is a proven performer, in all the worst combat conditions one can imagine, dust, sand, snow, water, mud, plus it's the sidearm that I have trained with the most. When I point that Glock downrange, I know right where that round is going to go, I Know the weapons good points, and I know it's bad habits and have long ago learned how to avoid them.

Since we're bringing extra stuff, Can I bring my Combat shotgun and a blackhawk bandoleer of 00 buck and slugs too?

Here's a thought....

I've seen an M-79 with the stock cut off and about 9" of barrel that one of the old SOG guys carried in a shoulder holster.

Anybody else got a 3 lb. 40mm handgun?  With an HEDP round?

By the way, global ammo availability is not normally an issue for the military.  The Army will give you more than you can carry.  .45ACP or 9mm are in the inventory.

Not to put a final damper on it, but privately owned weapons on deployments are a big no-no.  I believe issue handguns in the US Army right now are M1911A1 .45 ACP (in some version), H&K Mk 23 Offensive Handgun, M9 Beretta, and M11 SIG (basically a P228).  I guess you could stretch the definaition to include the H&K PDW, but if it has the folding stock, it isn't really a handgun.  There may be a few S&W .38 revolvers out there, but I haven't seen any on the army side.

It is nice to speculate.

I'd take my 1943 vintage Remington Rand M1911A1. After the many years of faithful service to this nation it deserves one last ride.

If I may.  My only choice is the most obvious.  I would bring a proven Somali manstopper.  I would choose the 100 caliber anti personnel "hotdog" launcher.  Perfectly streamed 100% percent beef hotdogs at the incredible rate of 125 a minute.  When added firepower is needed I would shoot linked sausages as a steady stream of gastronomical death.  During my first tour as a reconsapconlurp in the Hidden Valley of PooPoo Platter we had great success against sapper and slupper with 100 caliber launcher.  Being in the the south of PooPoo we used 45 grain pork rinds with pepper sauce and found these usually required at least a full bag for them to work reliably.
I don't suppose I won?  Yea, I did not think so.

Geeze I can't believe no one has mentioned it yet.

What you want, nay, what you NEED, is the biggest pimp-gun ever made. The one and only Desert Eagle.
http://www.magnumresearch.com/images/gun_new.jpg

I mean for goodness sakes, all the stopping power you will ever need in one beautiful gold-plated package.

Even if you don't shoot them all, you will scare the absolute shit out of all the skinnies with your gigantic hand cannon. Reload? who needs to reload when the sun is shining of your bigass gat and all the skinnies are running for cover.

I mean the choice is SO OBVIOUS.

<why can't I get things right the first time?>

Oh yeah, Just one more little tip for carrying non-issue pistols into foriegn lands.

If you are using the issue UM-84 holster for Glock 19 sized pistols. Take 2 standard 2 1/4 Law enforcment belt keepers, snap one set to the other and then thread it thru the plastic belt retainers on inside and outside of the holster, Snap the last set of two snaps, then thread them under the plastic, This protects the snaps from coming unsnapped.

This simple expediant allows you to carry several shorter barreled pistols in the UM-84 and is very usefull for pistols with longer trigger guards like the SW99 ore the Walther 99.

this vastly improves retention. and provides a nice strait up out of the holster draw.

And if your UM-84 is black, like mine, it looks like just part of the holster, but it also makes anyone considering a gun grab wonder just what the heck that strap is across the trigger guard channel.

The classical part of me would want to take along a Howda Gun chambered for .577. However ever the realist...I would choose a modified Ruger Bisley Chambered 475 Linebaugh.
Along with 200 cartridges and reloading equipment.

They look like these...



Why this choice ? Several Reasons. (1.) A revolver is more reliable than an Semi-Automatic Pistol. And a revolver is also simpler to operate while under duress.
(2.) 475 Linebaugh because it would offer EXCELLENT Pentration and Knock down Power both on 2 legged critters as well as a hungry lion.
The 475 Linebaugh can push a 395 - 405 grain .475 caliber bullet to 1400 fps. Since this is a 5 shot conversion to a revolver, that gives you 5 VERY POWERFUL shots on hand.

Cartridge Conversions to the Ruger Bisley can be performed by John Linebaugh himself

Or by Bowen Arms

Both businesses do Excellent Work.

So Just How Much Stopping Power does a 475 Linebaugh Have ?

Feast your eyes on this AFRICAN Beasty..it was bagged by a guy using a .475 Linebaugh 5 1/2 inch barrel using a 420 gr. LBT cast bullet at 1350 fps.  
This load has about the same effect on game as a .375 H&H or a .416 caliber rifle.

Assuming I get to pick a sidearm (which isn't normally allowed) I have to vote for the SIG P229 in .40, but not for the other reasons everyone else is giving.

I am currently issued a SIG. I carry it every day, every time I leave the house. I use to carry (and own) a few Glocks and some Smiths of various makes (the Smiths were forced on me but proved to be decent weapons).

The reasons I choose the SIG (assuming my employer would allow me to "borrow" it) are:

1) .40 is a good round. Yeah, its not the best out there, but it is a good compromise between controlability, size and power.

2) It is what I am most familiar with. Sure, I've put lots of rounds through my other weapons, but I've shot that SIG and carried it more than the others. Bottom line is that after using it this long, it is an extension of my hand. I've had my sights lined up on a target (or someone in training or a bad guy) enough times that it is a very familiar act. Its dang near the instinct level now.

3) Kind of echoing #2, I have carried this pistol through several tactical schools and countless training exercise as a secondary or primary weapon. My transition drills are all with the SIG. WHile it wouldn't change too much with a different weapon, its what my muscle memory knows.

4) It hasn't failed (yet). In over 4,000 rounds that I have put through this weapon, I have yet to experience a single malfunction. Part of that may be that I keep it religously clean, and have only fired high-quality ammo through it (in fact, it has only had issued Winchester Ranger SXT fired through it, period), but I also hold that part of this has to do with the inherent reliability of this weapons system.

5) I already have all of the gear. I have holsters to carry it for duty, concealed (a couple of ways) and tactical, and with what I have, I could rig it up for just about any reasonably conceivable gear set-up. I also have lots of hi-caps for it (yeah 12 is only two more than 10, but it can make a difference) aand I could easily get more if I needed them. Same goes for the ammo.

6) I have sufficient gear, and experience carrying it in various manners that I know it will function as a duty (uniform-type) weapon, primary or secondary tactical handgun, or as concealed handgun as the situation dictates. I currently carry it and a couple of spares concealed every day.

7) ESP picked it too, and it never hurts to suck up to the teacher.

Take a fast pump or semiauto 12 ga shotgun.
TWO skineez for one shot.

Listen, for the environment you described with such likely potential of being banzai-mobbed by crazy natives, I WON'T waste my time with a mere pistol---this calls for a SCATTERGUN. The ones that aren't dropped will scatter!

MAKE-EACH-ROUND-COUNT...if surviving is what you want to do.

While the guy next to me is so valiantly fire-suppressing the 'skinnies' with his hi-cap glock/beretta/sig Wundernine, I will actually be HURTING them badly with my 12 guage....

Forget the damned pistol---this isn't War against men of honor, this is against cowardly savages!

Your sidearm is your backup and last resort, right?
Concealment is not an issue in battle. Then why not a shotgun?
Anything less and you're compromising your survivability factor.

i can hardly quit laughing tears in my eyes just seeing this hord of warriors packing everything from zip-guns to sawed off red-ryders.   which takes me to troys post,you are going to be carrying your issue side arm in the worlds most widely used 9x19 .. not only will you have the readily avaliable ammo but the interchangability of equipment parts...

Ok, if I'm going "in country" I can make this happen.  I'll take the Glock 34 in 9mm; good sight radius and quick to hit with.  If I'm going third-world, ammo availability has to be a prime concern, and 9mm is available everywhere.  I believe it's a SA company that's marketing the FA conversion for the Glock, so while I can't buy the G18 here, I bet I can find the coversion parts laying around somewhere.  There's also no Hi-cap mag ban to get around, so the 33rnd G18 mags will make a nice companion.  All in all my answer is simple...It's all about firepower!  

Quoted: i can hardly quit laughing tears in my eyes just seeing this hord of warriors packing everything from zip-guns to sawed off red-ryders.   which takes me to troys post,you are going to be carrying your issue side arm in the worlds most widely used 9x19 .. not only will you have the readily avaliable ammo but the interchangability of equipment parts...

That's fine and dandy, Sherlock...but take note of how the question was worded:

"- which pistol would you take with you when they deploy you to Somalia and other mid eastern/african countries? and why ?"

Emphasis: WHICH PISTOL WOULD YOU TAKE WITH YOU

Obviously the topic starter was aware that under real-world circumstances a G.I. would inevitably sport an M9 at his side AS ISSUED. But then we wouldn't be having here this interesting discussion about which one of so many good sidearms we would choose to take.
Rather, we would be gloating about the 1,001 Wonders of the Beretta 92FS.
Not that the M9 is a poor performer, per se. Of course not!

I'd have to take the stylin' route and go with Imbro's .38




And yes! That's all

My Glock 21.

1.) It has never done anything but go "bang" every time I have squeezed the trigger with a round chambered. It has also never failed me in any way, shape, or form in over 3,000 rounds fired.

2.) It carries 10 rounds of .45 ACP (or 13 if I decide to bring along the standard capacity mags), which means at least 10 dead skinnies for each and every magazine.

3.) Shooting IDPA, I qualified Expert in Stock Service Pistol using this firearm, and I can easily get COM hits out to 50 yards on man-sized targets. I can also put two rounds, COM, into each of three targets at 5 yards in under two seconds from the holster.

4.) It's the gun I trust my life with each and every day.

I would take a Lorcin with the barrel welded shut and fill the cartridges with compression loads of bullseye. Wouldn't fire it, of course.  I'd let the fugger who managed to get past my M4 and take it off me fire it. :-}

A Thunder Five and plentey of 00 Buck

Tomohawk. Turd worlders deserve nothing less than dismemberment.

take something cheap so that when it is confiscated you arent out so much

after watching some of the videos at accuracyprecision.com...

It's not a sidearm, but I'd bring a .577 T-rex and give it to the other side.  Hard to fight (or hit anything) when your shoulder is broken.

my USP Tactical and KAC can for those 'up close and personal' moments.

And maybe a hundred rounds of HydraShok too..

Quoted: The classical part of me would want to take along a Howda Gun chambered for .577. However ever the realist...I would choose a modified Ruger Bisley Chambered 475 Linebaugh. Along with 200 cartridges and reloading equipment. They look like these... Why this choice ? Several Reasons. (1.) A revolver is more reliable than an Semi-Automatic Pistol. And a revolver is also simpler to operate while under duress. (2.) 475 Linebaugh because it would offer EXCELLENT Pentration and Knock down Power both on 2 legged critters as well as a hungry lion. The 475 Linebaugh can push a 395 - 405 grain .475 caliber bullet to 1400 fps. Since this is a 5 shot conversion to a revolver, that gives you 5 VERY POWERFUL shots on hand. Cartridge Conversions to the Ruger Bisley can be performed by John Linebaugh himself Or by Bowen Arms Both businesses do Excellent Work. So Just How Much Stopping Power does a 475 Linebaugh Have ? Feast your eyes on this AFRICAN Beasty..it was bagged by a guy using a .475 Linebaugh 5 1/2 inch barrel using a 420 gr. LBT cast bullet at 1350 fps.   This load has about the same effect on game as a .375 H&H or a .416 caliber rifle.

Let me see if I've got this straight.

The "bagger" was carrying a Linebaugh in .475, 5.5" barrel and shooting 420gr LBT cast bullets capable of 1350 fps.

Now the "African Beastie" - what was this dude carrying ? A .25 Browning ??

Hmmm....

Sidearm....

And Ammo & Magazine availability...

And oh yes this being an AR-15 board...

Ok... One of them there AR-15 Patriot Pistols...

Now don't go telling me all about how the Muzzle Velocity does not do as good as the M4 and M16... but remember this is a Handgun...

Ted...

While sneaking a non-issue pistol is a bit too much - I have seriously thought about how easily I could sneak some good heavy hydra-shock rounds over for my M9. I am only talking one magazine's worth - as they would only be used in an extreme self defense situation (anything else I would have time to switch to my mag with ball and get the advantages such offers).

I will mount my Crimson Trace laser grips onto my M9 though - just haven't had a chance yet - purely for the "coolness" factor. I kinda like the "cowboy" image.

Quoted: While sneaking a non-issue pistol is a bit too much - I have seriously thought about how easily I could sneak some good heavy hydra-shock rounds over for my M9. I am only talking one magazine's worth - as they would only be used in an extreme self defense situation (anything else I would have time to switch to my mag with ball and get the advantages such offers). I will mount my Crimson Trace laser grips onto my M9 though - just haven't had a chance yet - purely for the "coolness" factor. I kinda like the "cowboy" image.

Adam:

Lasergrips GOOD, Hydrashock BAD.

No biggie if you put the grips on, but unless you are allowed to carry your M-9 for personal protection, if you get caught with non-standard ammo in your weapon/mags, you are going to be given an Article 15 and be cashiered out, minimum.

If you actually use it on someone, you are going to be locked up and the US Army is going to propsecute you as a war criminal.  They have to, because you will be putting the US in violation of International Laws of War.

Keep the M-4/M-16 handy and if you have to use the M-9, put every BALL round where it counts because you are in deep doo-doo.  The non-standard rounds do not provide the advantage for the risk incurred.

Now if you were to have a personal weapon, then the ammo would just be another charge on the list!

Quoted: Well, Bearing in mind the fact that a handgun is a survival kit, meant to give you the time to either unass the AO on get you hands on a long weapon. Remember that once you are make that rifle/pistol transition, That it is truly Alamo time baby. The pistol would also be used in tight confined spaces. Personaly, My pick would be my .45 Glock 21 W/tritium nitesites, a Arotek slide release, Harrts recoil reducer, and grip plug. Frankly, Somolia was not the first time that U.S. troops had a run in with drug crazed natives. Thats what .45 was designed for, way back when. Assuming here that we can get away with bringing our own side arm in the first place, then I'm working on the assumption that there would be no problem sticking 5 loaded 13 round mags and 4 50 round boxes of ammo in with my kit. I see no reason to worry about more pistol ammo than that, because frankly you would be lucky to live long enough to fire half those mags in close combat conditions that required pistol transition, While I have more Sexy modern pistols, That .45 Glock is a proven performer, in all the worst combat conditions one can imagine, dust, sand, snow, water, mud, plus it's the sidearm that I have trained with the most. When I point that Glock downrange, I know right where that round is going to go, I Know the weapons good points, and I know it's bad habits and have long ago learned how to avoid them. Since we're bringing extra stuff, Can I bring my Combat shotgun and a blackhawk bandoleer of 00 buck and slugs too?

THATS THE WINNING ANSWER!  HISTORY IS THE GREATEST TEACHER AND THIS MAN KNOWS THAT MAN STOPPING POWER IS WHAT COUNTS.  ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THE .45 WAS DEVELOPED FOR AFRICAN'S.  THROW IN THE TECHNOLOGY OF TODAYS GUNS LIKE THE GLOCK 21 AND THAT'S THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION!  

NOT TO MENTION, WHY WASTE MORE THAN ONE SHOT ON THOSE DISEASED ANIMALS!

[>(]

Quoted: Lasergrips GOOD, Hydrashock BAD. No biggie if you put the grips on, but unless you are allowed to carry your M-9 for personal protection, if you get caught with non-standard ammo in your weapon/mags, you are going to be given an Article 15 and be cashiered out, minimum.

Comprende Amigo - I know the rules. I am just talking about my thoughts on the weapon matter in the spirit of the thread. The truth is I HAVE thought about it on occasion - it would just be too easy to smuggle the ammo with our OBL. The legality of it is why I mentioned that, in any cases but life or death (where perhaps the stopping power would help) I would definitely have time to, and definitely would, load ball. As you now now my job, you can see that if the point came to where I was using my weapon - things will have gotten real hairy - and I can also assure you there would be no evidence as to who fired the round (hell at least I hope not ). Either way the hydra shock thing is more along the idea of "better be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Truth is, the thing is just speculation based on how easy it would be. As a subscriber to the "shot placement" school of thought, I believe 9mm ball to be more than adequate and would probably never really think about using anything else if the opportunity arose.

Adam