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Posted: 1/20/2002 9:41:40 PM EDT
[#1]
There was some talk about an AR in 5.45 some time ago. Most people decided that there wasn't really much to be gained, and that the taper of the 5.45 might be too much for the magazines. Something like 7.62X39, maybe.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents. |
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Posted: 1/20/2002 9:53:18 PM EDT
[#2]
From what I've read, 762 x 39 does not feed well in an ar mag, so would 545 x 39 feed as well as 223 ?
It all comes down to the taper on the 762 x 39 shell. |
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Posted: 1/21/2002 5:45:17 AM EDT
[#3]
The .21 Ghengis was listed at 2850 fps for a 60 grain bullet. So that's better than a 5.56 at 3000 fps for a 69 grain bullet?
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Posted: 1/21/2002 6:47:04 AM EDT
[#4]
What do I think?
BAHHHHHH!!!! No advantage. Make it a 22PPC on a 7.62X39 upper/bolt carrier group and you have an accuracy issue to contend with. For that matter make it a 6mm PPC upper,so a guy could whack Bambi with it. Then again,if it trips your trigger who cares what anyone thinks...do it! Gotta love the guy marching around to music only he can hear,ya know.? Cheers! S-28 |
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Posted: 1/21/2002 6:52:32 AM EDT
[#5]
ive shot both the 21 genghis and the 50 beowulf. i like the 50 better but the 21 was damn cool. it had less recoil than the 22lr i have. ill tell you, the 50 completely destroyed everything it hit. very cool... i think some advantages of the 21 genghis could be recoil, CHEAP ammo, and i hear the 5.45x39 has a helluva wound capacity...
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Posted: 1/21/2002 7:04:49 AM EDT
[#6]
It could have been kinda kewl if they made a lower that took AK mags...
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Posted: 1/21/2002 7:21:45 AM EDT
[#7]
was thinking more about it last night. I also looked at two different web sights for ammo. they both carried the russian ammo. This is what I am now wondering, the russian 223 ammo has a so-so reputation in AR rifles. it is hit and miss, some people dont have any problems with it, others have lots of problems. The lacquer coating is one of the problems. Well, will the russian 5.45x39 have the same problems in this upper? the 2 places I looked only had russian ammo...
Now the 50 beowulf does look interesting. I am also assuming that this is one that you will be wanting to reload for. I did not see any mention of availibility of preloaded ammo (even though I did see the box of ammo from the rifle manufacturer), cases, reloading dies....When tromix released the .458 he had already arranged for a commercial ammo, empty shells, and reloading dies..... |
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Posted: 1/21/2002 7:54:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Just a correction...Tromix did not design the .458 SOCOM. A guy by the name of Marty at Teppo Jutsu did. Tromix simply made the uppers capable of handling the round. |
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Posted: 1/21/2002 11:48:10 AM EDT
[#9]
I stand Corrected.
But still, the ammo and supplies for reloading it were availible. I went looking for this manufacturers site and one found one that is under construction, dont even know if it is the right one. |
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Posted: 1/21/2002 12:59:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Marty is a member here...and he lives down the street from me. I met him at a local show, and he's a great guy. I'll see if I can find his card if you're interested.
www.teppojutsu.com/products.htm |
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Posted: 1/21/2002 2:12:59 PM EDT
[#11]
What about a 22/250 upper?
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Posted: 1/21/2002 3:48:12 PM EDT
[#12]
fact: 5.45x39 aircore flips rapidly upon impact with soft targets. see fackler for details.
fact: russian 5.45x39 ammunition runs without problems in a sleazy kalashnikov ak-74. i burn barnaul, wolf and ulyanhovsk 5.45 reliably. fact: ballistically speaking, 5.45x39 is lightyears beyond the the old soviet m-43 round (7.62x39).it carries 900-910mps at the muzzle. 5.56 ss-109 carries 915mps and 7.62x39 weighs in at 710mps. 5.45 is only slightly slower than 5.56. fact: 5.45x39 is the least powerfull round used by any modern military. the m-74 ball round generates 1,385 joules at the muzzle compared to 1700 joules for ss-109 5.56x45 ball ammo. fact: the felt recoil of shooting m-74 out of an ak-74 is only 3.39 joules, compared with 6.44 joules of a 5.56 m-16a1 rifle. it is, indeed, very much like shooting a light .22 bolt action rifle. the control when shooting 5.45 in full auto mode must be experienced to be believed. trust me, even an 8" barreled krinkov is more than merely "controllable" when burst firing. fact: the ak-74 brake is one of the most efficient military brakes ever designed. no, i'm not talking about the clumsy, non-functional copies found on most american ar's and ak's, but the real mccoy. the primary expansion chamber is huge, and the gas redirect ports are very well engineered to take advantage of the fluid dynamics of high velocity gases. fact: the ak-74 is more accurate its' predecessor, the akm and ITS' predecessor, the ak-47. an ar-15 version would take the accuracy even further into the zone. i think i'll get in line to try one of these uppers. my only comment on the "marriage" of com-bloc and yankee technologies would be: could it be asking to much to convert a lower to use the superior communist $5 mags? |
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Posted: 1/21/2002 8:52:13 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm not disagreeing, but how could the 5.45 have less recoil? Is it the muzzle brake, or something about the internal ballistics? I don't see how it could develop the same velocity with half the recoil.
My main concern would be the laquer coating on the steel case. |
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Posted: 1/22/2002 2:11:01 PM EDT
[#14]
I read some interesting info regarding the laquer and related failures. The author attributed the problems with 223 laquers ammo to the milder case taper. The russian cases are much more tapered. Of course AK extra more violently than AR's.
Regarding recoil, it is very dependent on the gun through which the round is being shot. For instance, after shooting my 5.56 valmet, my bushmaster feels like it kicks like a mule. |
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Posted: 1/22/2002 2:48:04 PM EDT
[#15]
I always thought, and still do after shooting a 5.45 AK for awhile, that AKs feel like they kick harder than ARs. I think it's because the reciprocating mass of the AK is greater and the AK lacks any buffer. It's just metal slapping metal.
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:30:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Does anyone have the .21 Genghis? Any range reports? Any problems with the 5.45x39 rounds in the AR magazines?
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:39:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Hmmmmn
.21 Genghis Entry upper - $899 SAR 2 rifle - around $350 I'll take the SAR-2 please. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 2:55:43 PM EDT
[#18]
I'll second CampyBob's statements. Out of a AK-74, accurate automatic fire is unbelievably controllable. The Russians make excellent small arms. I think the 5.45 is a very good round. It doesn't fragment like the 5.56, but tumbles wildly.
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Posted: 5/10/2002 4:14:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Campybob, just a few questions:
To what distance will it retain this ability out of a 16" barrel? Further than the slightly faster .223?
Aren't "sleazy kalashnikov ak-74s" made to considerably looser tolerances than AR-15s?
Is there any advantage gained by giving up that little bit of velocity to the .223, a round that already has problems maintaining reliable wounding capacity beyond about 200=300 yards?
I wanted something more, not less, powerful than the .223, which is why I'm building an FN-FAL. Why would anyone want something that produces less energy than the already fairly low-powered .223?
While I can see the attraction if you've got a registered M16 lower, who here is really bothered by the recoil of your AR firing .223?
I understand those Steyr-made 5.45mm sniper rifles are just mindbogglingly accurate. EricTheHun and a buddy of his were telling me about them last weekend. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 5:10:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Ballistically no advantage..However assuming that the AR magazines can handle the different round..and not give you any feeding problems..the 5.45 x 39 mm cartridge would probably be a little more reliable when it comese to extraction because of its increased taper. Taper matters when the chamber is really hot...if the case is sticking to the walls of a hot chamber..a more tapered case will not have to be moved as far backward by the bolt to "unstick" it from the chamber walls. |
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