OK, my friend is rambling about how superior his AK74 is to my Bushy AR15.  He says AR15s jam all the time, even though I tell him it's not true, he won't listen to me.  Can anyone give me info or stats to show him?  I know the AR15 is a very reliable rifle, it's just getting this moron to understand.

Just take him out, and shoot 'em side by side. Let him shoot your AR, and see if it jams in his hands. The proof, and the end of the argument, will be right there in his hands. Better yet, put some money on it, that always shuts people up. Ask him how many rounds is fair to produce a jam, have him lay out his money, and start firing.

AK what?  I thought those were paper weights.

 That's a good idea, but knowing him he'll say "I don't want to take your money", or "I don't gamble".  Back up plan, anyone?

The only thing that an AK has on an AR is reliability. I hate to say it but it's true. I'm an AR man but reliability is very important. If it stops shooting it's just a club and not a very good one at that.

Backup plan...

Just agree to forget the money.

When he ribs you again, just tell him with a straight firm voice "Anytime you're ready".. which translates into that you are ready anytime to take him to the range to prove who is right.

 Yeah, I'll do a side-by-side shoot with him.  Hey, Sukebe, as long as you maintain your AR15, it will be very reliable.  The AR15 is a very reliable rifle.  I've done some dumb things with mine, but it still works.

set him up ... for a big fall... go to a plqace with a 300 yard range zero your rifle and allow him to do the same... put a paper plate on the target board and each start with 30 rnds. see which has the most holes in it when the smoke clears. If your rifle jams your out as would be the ak shooter.
When he is done he will buy the beer!

As I once read somewhere online (sorry I can't give proper credit)-"The AK47 is fine if your a peasant who needs to be told not to defecate in the drinking water. otherwise, use an AR.

Sorry Bub. But your friend is right. The AR while a fine rifle and very accurate is NOT the best rifle when it comes to RELIABILITY.

Read the following Tests at: www.valmet-weapons.com/Torture_Test_Page1.html

Boston.... very interesting article... the ar failed this test ,when a cup of warm water was poured into the receiver and then the rifle placed outside at -20 f! ... cant see how in the real world this could happen! at this temp not much is liquid, and whatever is will remain so.
Ever see an Leo pour his coffee into his rifle, then take it out in -20 conditions? the test was a sham!@
I would take the ar in any climate that the human has learned to surviece in, not clean it just treat it like a tool i might need .. i have qa good time shooting at bad guys any day....pat

Well, if I ever go to combat I'll be sure to avoid those guys with the cups of hot water ready to throw at your gun.  I've poured sand into my rifle and it still worked.  Yes, the AK does have loose tolerances, but it needs to be for Russian conscript morons.  I was watching this thing on the Navy SEALs.  He said that the AR-15/M16 is more of a precision weapon than the AK, and needs to be cleaned more often, but he said it is a very reliable rifle.  The AR-15 is a very reliable rifle.  Why else would the US military use it for over 30 years?  Even Peter G. Kokalis said it is one of the finest combat weapons out there, and is one of the most reliable rifles in the world.  Read "The Black Rifle" by Edward C. Ezell.  He has the stats and info.  I agree with whoever said AKs are for peasants who need to be told not to defecate in the drinking water supply.

I put somewhere between 6 or 7 hundred rounds of ammo through my M4 yesterday without a hiccup. And I wan't the only one. A bunch of AR's with who knows how many rounds of ammo, with only one malfunction. And I'm pretty sure it had to do with the mag (an Orelite).

And believe it or not, I've seen AK's jam as well. The AR is plenty reliable. For some reason I don't think I'll be pouring sand (or water ) straight down the receiver if ever caught in combat.

In original, non-copied form, the AK "design" is better.  I have several AR-15's, AK's, have had FN's(FAL and FNC, not copies either), HK-91, and HK 93,and although I consider myself more of an AR guy than AK guy, I personnaly feel the AK is more forgiving than them all.

Accurate?  Well thats another issue, so lets not cloud the water.  I have also fired Soviet AKM's while in the Army.

But then again, there are many flavors out there and ALL have strong points AND weak points.

Confidence in ones chosen weapon and proper care is more important.  

That's bullshit, AR's are great rifle's "and they are very reliable", one just has to, "Love His Woman" take a little better care of your weapon. The only thing an AK has on an AR is not because it's quote "more reliable" it can just get dirtier and still fire and thats great if your a camel jockey that can't even clean himself let alone his weapon. AR's are alot more accurate too, more light wieght, and test's have proven that a 5.56 round does more internal wound damage than a 7.62. Plus I heard that AK's aren't really that well made, I've heard stories of parts just falling off.

My turn to beat the dead horse (again...)
A friend of mine just finished a 5-day Urban Carbine course at Thunder Ranch (he was using a 5.45 AK). Here's a quote from his report:

"I had come to the class thinking I was going to buy an AR type rifle when I got home, because of the ammo availability issue for the AK's. A week in the "zone" left me convinced that I would NEVER stake my life on an AR, even if you gave it to me. I know this will make a lot of people mad, but I am just stating what I saw. ZERO failures in the foreign rifles, constant failures in the US rifles. That is what I saw. PLUS the AK and H&K guys were NOT cleaning their rifles during the week and they were using
cheap ammo. The AR guys were cleaning all the time and many were shooting match ammo. It did not seem to matter, the longer the week wore on, the faster the rate of failures in the AR style rifles. It did not seem to matter whether the AR rifle was preban, post ban, semi only or select fire, all suffered the same problems. Again, no bias here, am simply reporting what I observed. In my opinion, if you come to TR with an
AR/M16, make sure you bring a spare. Chances are you will need it."

This doesn't mean that all ARs are junk or jammomatics. IMHO it does illustrate that the AR system (like all rifle systems) has its strengths and weaknesses. It's more accurate & egronomic than the AKs and ammo & "custom" parts are more varied and easier to come by (when was the last time you saw 7.62x39 match ammo?) However, the AR is a more complex system that needs a greater degree of care to ensure its reliability (Is it lubed properly? Are the O-rings spaced properly? "Good" mags, "good" ammo?). At a target range the AR should come out on top every time (accuracy) but in a stress-test situation like Thunder Ranch you need max reliability and this will reveal your particular AR's true colors (ie: will your personal AR successfully withstand this stress test of both man and machine).
Bottom line: ARs *can* be very reliable, AKs *are* very reliable. Just my $.02 worth...
Tomac
PS- Jander100, I've been shooting AKs (and ARs) for over 25yrs now and have yet to see a part "fall off" an AK, regardless of caliber. I've yet to see a malfunction of any kind in my AKs (I even put 1,000rds each through my new 5.45 AKs right out of the box before cleaning/lubing the first time, no malfunctions), wish I could say the same for my ARs.  My 5.45 SAR-2 AK weighs in at 6.5lbs empty, how much does your AR weigh? I agree that the 5.56 has superior terminal performance (especially when velocity is high enough to ensure bullet fragmentation) than 7.62x39 FMJ (SP is another story). Comparing 5.45x39 vs 5.56x45 is also another matter entirely. Pick the rifle/caliber that best suits your particular needs. I prefer AKs for my particular needs but don't trash ARs if they better suit someone else. I suggest you do the same...

i'd have to see that shit to believe it.

Jander100, dont' take my word for it. You can reach him yourself at [email protected] . He'll be happy to send you his complete report in pdf format. Perhaps you'd prefer to contact Thunder Ranch and ask them for their observed AR failure rate: http://www.thunderranchinc.com/ . Here's your chance to ascertain the facts for yourself w/o having to depend on anecdotal stories about "parts falling off" and such. BTW, care to provide more detail/proof on these stories of yours?...
Tomac

your friend is right`--i have both ak74 and bushy and lots more rounds on my ak with know promblems--remember your on ar15.com so most people are going to be an ar15 freak and be  butt hurt

Ok, there's no doubt that AK's are generally more reliable than AR's. BUT, the reputation for AR's being jammomatics is COMPLETELY unjustified. Like I've said, I've seen ARs eat tons of ammo without any problem.

And as far as Ak's, like I said before, I've seen them jam as well. And I've seen more than one AK have parts start coming loose from vibration after 50-100 rounds. I'm talking pistol grips, and stocks. This is not to say however that I don't like AK's. They have their good side, but not as unforgiving. as some might have you believe. And that's from personal experiance.


I guess there isn't a perfect rifle. But the AR comes awfully close.

Quoted: AR/M16, make sure you bring a spare. Chances are you will need it." Bottom line: ARs *can* be very reliable, AKs *are* very reliable. Just my $.02 worth... Tomac

First issue:

If your buddy is correct, why does US SF, The SAS / SBS, and Israeli SF use them? (to name a few)  

Second issue:

Define reliability?  How do you correlate this statement on a Weibull curve?  What population are you using?  What is the sample size?  Please illustrate to me your claim using objective evidence.  Without data it is just an opinion.  


www-acala1.ria.army.mil/LC/cs/csi/sahist.htm

Well, I can't speak for AR's reliability...yet.  But, I can tell you that my SAR2 has over 2000 rounds thru it without a cleaning.  Not a single failure...except the very first shot...that one was due to a bad primer that wouldn't go boom.

just sold my pre-ban ak47. it jammed at least 1 once every 100 rounds. i've shot over 600 rounds through my dissipator (without cleaning) and it has not jammed on me yet.

 How come every SEAL says the AR-15 is very reliable.  Hell, even the Israeli Isayeret called the M16 family of weapons very reliable.  I've seen my friend's SAR-2 stop, it was a mag problem though.  Most of the time the mag is the problem with ARs.  Here is a link to the Isayeret site, about assault rifles, more specifically the Colt Commando.

www.isayeret.com/weapons/commando.htm

Here is a direct quote: "Like the rest of the M16 family, the Colt Commando is very reliable and accurate."

If you think you're clumsy enough to drop your rifle in the mud, stick with the AK.  Yes the AR needs to be cleaned more, but it is still very reliable.  I've read accounts of people going into the 10000 round range without a stoppage, and only with a squirt of CLP.

Send your buddy here to AR.
I will take him hunting and GUARANTEE a deer.
Then we will each go to my range and shoot a case of 1000 rds each,most misfires or failures is the loser.
Loser has to pay for all ammo and food that day.
cpermd

Right on seamusmcoi, I guess there are a few AK freak's on AR15.com too huh? They allway's get their dick in a knot to. lol

good point QCMGR, why doesnt the USA the qoute, "Most Powerful Nation in the World", use AK instead? If they are so superior?

oh and by the way my bushy has only jammed once, but it was a defective bullet. not the gun.

Not only that, Spec Ops teams can choose nearly what ever they want, and have used AKs before, but the majority still prefer the AR-15, and these guys, who have seen combat, still use the AR-15.  They call them trusty.  These are very reliable rifles.  There is no doubting that.  I've used a lubed AR in sandy environments (I practically live in a desert) with no stoppages whatsoever.

yea dude and you can slap a different cal. upper on em' just like that. like you mean i assume

but the millitary has done vigorous testing and has confirmed the 5.56 is the most all around efficient round there is for combat "war".

Though AK's generally are more reliable compared to the AR, but Ive taken the M-16 to combat on 3 continents and would take one over an AK any day.  With a max effective range nearly DOUBLE of the AK, the choice is clear IMHO.

Okay, guys, I do *not* want to start another AK vs AR debate but I will address a few points mentioned after my earlier post.
1) We all know that politics can play a big part in any country's program for weapons procurement (look at the initial politically-caused problems the M-16 experienced). I hardly think we'd go to the AK anymore than Russia would go to the M-16.
2) I don't know about you but I do not have access to full military M-16s. Neither do I have access to the military's logistical base for supplying/maintaining my rifle. Do the Special Ops guys get "off the rack" weapons or do they get just a little "TLC"? How many civilian ARs would pass muster as "military grade"? (Could this have something to do with the less-reliable ARs?)
3) As I mentioned before, don't take my word for it. Check with Thunder Ranch (or *any* of the premier civilian training facilities) *yourself* and find out *for yourself* what the failure rate is for the AR family of rifles. Then, report your findings here. C'mon, *someone* here has to have the cajones to take this challenge...
4) Yes, the AR is more accurate than the AK, this has never been disputed.
5) Yes, the AR *can* be very reliable but many aren't (just check the troubleshooting forum here).
6) I don't consider myself an "AK freak" ("weapons freak", maybe...) but am surprised (maybe I shouldn't be) at the reaction here when the AK is even mentioned (like dropping a fox in a hen house...) Methinks some doth protest too much...
7) As I mentioned before (ad nauseum), the AR/AK/WhizBang2000 rifles all have their strengths and weaknesses. If there were one "perfect" rifle for all uses then we'd all have it and there wouldn't be any "spirited" discussions about the relative merits of various rifles/calibers.
8) Pick the rifle/caliber that does what *you* want it to do. Become good with it then it doesn't really matter what the particular rifle or caliber is, it will get the job done...
Tomac

good point Tomac

I guess I'm just American,
oh and the AR's light weight, accuracy and wounding capabilities are a plus in my book.
The AR is just a weapon that was designed to be very balanced, in all aspect's of what a combat rifle should be.

I have two AR's and no AK's but this is what I have to say anyway:

I would pick an AK any day of the week if I were in a combat situation where the conditions were harsh and as most extreme as they come.  

Having been a Marine, I know where the AR/M16 is going to jam.  Give it sand, give it mud, it will caugh like an infant.  Feed that stuff to an AK and it will eat every little bit!

ok, the AK is "reliable" and the AR is "accurate". what's the best of both worlds, SAR3? Valmet 223?

Double post, sorry...
Tomac

Designing the "best" combat rifle? Now there's a good topic for discussion!
Let's see... Ergonomics, accuracy & sights of the AR, ruggedness, reliability & ease of maintenance/repair of the AK, range/effectiveness of the .308, recoil of the 5.56/5.45, modular like the AR uppers, gas system like the AK/AR-180? What else do we need here?
Tomac

FUCK THIS SHIT!
AR'S ARE RELIABLE!
WHERE IS YOUR HEAD'S? UP YOUR ASS!
GO TELL ALL THE MARINE'S, ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, THAT THEY MIGHT AS WELL GIVE UP BECAUSE BIN LADEN'S WEAPON'S ARE SUPERIOR TO OUR'S. ALL THEIR'S ARE GONNA DO IS JAM AND SHIT AND THE TALIBAN GUY'S WILL HAVE A STRAIGHT SHOT. SO FUCK IT WE MIGHT AS WELL START PRAYING TO ALA.

Chill, Jander... No one said the AK was "superior" to the AR. Pick a particular performance category and you can stack the deck for/against *any* rifle. Ex: The 1903-A3 is superior to the AR because it's 30-06 cartridge is more powerful making it more effective and more accurate at longer ranges. That particular fact may be true but the logic in concluding that the '03 is overall "superior" to the AR because of it is flawed. However, I don't think I'd want a bolt gun (even as good as the '03, Cooper fans notwithstanding) in a serious fight. If the rifle (*any* rifle) has the *combination* of reliability, accuracy, ergonomics & effectiveness to accomplish the mission then it doesn't matter *who* made it or what the caliber is.
You love ARs and have a good one then more power to you. However, an AR no more fits the "perfect rifle" bill than the AK.
If you don't like the *opinions* of some people then by all means feel free to refute them with *facts* and *personal experience* (like with your decent Bushy) and not nebulous "I heard this story" type of anecdote.
Fact: Someone I know attended a Thunder Ranch course and personally observed a high failure rate amongst the ARs used in the course. If you think this is in error then contact Thunder Ranch and/or other training facilities and ask them if this is typical or atypical for ARs used in their courses. Get the *facts* to refute such evidence.
Don't take it so personal, dude. We're discussing firearms here, not your geneology...
Tomac

Quoted: I guess I'm just American, oh and the AR's wounding capabilities are a plus in my book.

Doesn't the 5.45x39 have better wounding capability and excellent ballistics?  Not trying to argue...just a simple question.

Quoted: Designing the "best" combat rifle? Now there's a good topic for discussion! Let's see... Ergonomics, accuracy & sights of the AR, ruggedness, reliability & ease of maintenance/repair of the AK, range/effectiveness of the .308, recoil of the 5.56/5.45, modular like the AR uppers, gas system like the AK/AR-180? What else do we need here? Tomac

how about a lightened m14 with a recoil buffer?

how about a "under-barrel" grenade launcher?

or that new 20mm explosive projectile

Just the other day I was at the range shooting AR-15's (colt & bushie) and AK's (sar-1 and sar-2). None of my 4 rifles had any problems going through 300 rounds each. I clean the AR's after every session. The AK's I clean whenever I feel like it. I feel both types of rifles are very reliable, with the reliability edge going to the AK and the accuracy and ergonomics going to the AR. I did notice another AR-15 shooter that was having nothing but problems though and when talking to him about it I found that he was using POS usa mags and shooting some crappy range reload ammo - no wonder he had problems.

A reliable rifle is more than the design, it is the system that keeps the rifle running. I find that AR-15's (at least mine) are very reliable because I only use USGI mags in excellant condition and shoot mil-spec ammo and I keep it clean (USMC clean!) I don't have any fantasies about it being as reliable as my AK's though. I've torture tested both and have seen that AR's do start choking when they get very dirty whereas AK's do not (looser tolerances). The only time I've ever seen an AK jam is when there is something physically wrong with that AK (bad or worn part, mags or ammo). Where I have seen AR's jam for no reason in particular. Case in point - I have a bushmaster that I took out shooting and put a couple hundred rounds through it with no problems, then it starts having problems and basically turns itself into a single shot rifle, take it home and find that a primer cup had come apart and lodged parts of itself everywhere, clean it up and take it back to the range and it's fine again. I've never seen anything so trivial stop an AK from functioning.

I love my AR's but the rifle that's loaded and ready for SHTF around my house is the AK cause I know it'll ALWAYS go bang. I do feel the AR-15 is superior to the AK for many reasons but not in the area of reliablity. BTW I prefer my Ak's in 5.45

Oh,

I get it. Yea...

I have a friend that knew a guy that says the AK-47 is what SF really uses.  You see, due to politics, they only show SF with M-16's because they want the families back home to think the average soldier has the best.  But in reality the Special Ops guys put them back in the rack once the camera man leaves and then they get their AK-47's and go to work. He also knew a guy that had a friend in the SAS and he said they still use the Brown Bess.

Yea...that's the ticket.  

Quoted:  How come every SEAL says the AR-15 is very reliable.  Hell, even the Israeli Isayeret called the M16 family of weapons very reliable.  I've seen my friend's SAR-2 stop, it was a mag problem though.  Most of the time the mag is the problem with ARs.  Here is a link to the Isayeret site, about assault rifles, more specifically the Colt Commando. www.isayeret.com/weapons/commando.htm Here is a direct quote: "Like the rest of the M16 family, the Colt Commando is very reliable and accurate." If you think you're clumsy enough to drop your rifle in the mud, stick with the AK.  Yes the AR needs to be cleaned more, but it is still very reliable.  I've read accounts of people going into the 10000 round range without a stoppage, and only with a squirt of CLP.

In addition to that the Israeli's used to issue the Galil, basicly an AK knokoff that fired 5.56mm ammo.

  Guess what they replaced the Galil with??

An AR variant!
 
 

Quoted: Quoted:  How come every SEAL says the AR-15 is very reliable.  Hell, even the Israeli Isayeret called the M16 family of weapons very reliable.  I've seen my friend's SAR-2 stop, it was a mag problem though.  Most of the time the mag is the problem with ARs.  Here is a link to the Isayeret site, about assault rifles, more specifically the Colt Commando. www.isayeret.com/weapons/commando.htm Here is a direct quote: "Like the rest of the M16 family, the Colt Commando is very reliable and accurate." If you think you're clumsy enough to drop your rifle in the mud, stick with the AK.  Yes the AR needs to be cleaned more, but it is still very reliable.  I've read accounts of people going into the 10000 round range without a stoppage, and only with a squirt of CLP. In addition to that the Israeli's used to issue the Galil, basicly an AK knokoff that fired 5.56mm ammo.   Guess what they replaced the Galil with??

An AK-47!?!?!?!?!  

That's what a friend of my Monkeys Uncle told the dog who passed it on to the Son of Sam who told a corrections Officer that told my priest in confession said.

Quoted: www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault.htm An AK-47!?!?!?!?!   That's what a friend of my Monkeys Uncle told the dog who passed it on to the Son of Sam who told a corrections Officer that told my priest in confession said.

your kidding right??

did you click on the link?

aren't you familiar with the Galil or Valmet ??

www.isayeret.com/weapons/galil.htm
www.valmet-weapons.com

Quoted: PRAYING TO ALA.

you say ALA  

I say  ALLAH

tomatoe   tomatah

potatoe   potatah

Oh Gees, here we go again.  It's been at least a few weeks since someone started up one of these AR-15 vs. AK-47 threads.  ;-)

I have 2 of each (pre-ban Colt, post-ban Oly, pre-ban Norinco, post-ban SAR-1).  I also have a FAL (post-ban M-444 Imbel).  IMHO based on my personal experiences, here are the pros and cons of each...

AR-15 Pros:
- Ergonomics second to none
- All American so no 922(r) compliance BS
- cheap, readily available ammo
- tons of options for customizing (slings, uppers, scopes, etc.)
- post-bans are fairly inexpensive, especially if you DIY.
- easy on your shoulder when you fire.
- Evil politically incorrect look.

AR-15 Cons:
- pre-bans are pricey ($1200 up)
- will jam if not cleaned after 200-300 rounds
- mags a little more expensive ($15-30 but seems like they're cheaper now than last year!)

FAL Pros:
- Excellent Ergonomics
- Adjustable gas system
- .308 is still cheap
- "Right Arm of the Free World" looks.
- Decent reliability
- Lots of parts still available
- Cheap mags ($5-15)

FAL Cons:
- Long and heavy
- 922(r) compliance BS
- Pre-bans outragiously expensive

AK Pros:
- Reliability
- Evil Politically incorrect look
- cheap mags ($5-10)
- cheap ammo (1000 rounds about $80)
- Pre-bans still affordable ($650-1000)

AK Cons:
- Horrendous Commie ergonomics
- 922(r) compliance BS

To quote the great SciFi writer and libertarian Robert Heinlein, "There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch".  Each has its pros and cons and there is a cost.  In the end, I like them all.  If you can get one of each, I would.  You never know when you might have to grab one from a dead combatant and use it.  

In a SHTF scenario, I'd probably grab my pre-ban Colt first, the FAL second and the AK last.  

Regards,
SOL