User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/14/2020 6:56:28 PM EDT
I purchased two ARX-100's during a sale last year. Finally got around to sending one of the barrel assemblies in to get a chop/pin/weld. Keeping the other one factory. Both are still unfired. I only sent in the barrel assembly, and when I got it back, I noticed the muzzle device and gas block were both canted in relation to the receiver. The one I kept at home, the gas block is parallel to the receiver. I also noticed that the barrel nut has some scratches/handling marks on it. It kind of looks like they used the nut as a leverage point to do the work.
Can anyone else with an ARX-100 check to see if their gas blocks are canted or not like my send-in one is? I'm not sure how much torque the barrel nut has on it from the factory, but I'd find it hard to believe that it would budge at all, even if you used that as a leverage point to work the muzzle device.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2020 7:57:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Mine is like the "kept at home" one.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2020 8:28:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine is like the "kept at home" one. Appreciate you checking for me. The folks who did the work seem to be somewhat willing to work with me at this point in time. They said it was possible that while it was spinning on the lathe that the nut could have worked loose if it wasn't properly tightened at the factory. Still don't know what I'm going to do. Aside from aesthetic reasons, I'm concerned about headspace issues. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2020 10:35:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:They said it was possible that while it was spinning on the lathe that the nut could have worked loose if it wasn't properly tightened at the factory. Not trying to instigate, but even if it was properly tightened at the factory, whatever was used to clamp on the nut resulting in the teeth marks/scratches and for whatever reason there was for doing so seems much more likely than the ‘lathe story’, doesn’t it?!? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2020 10:39:20 PM EDT
[#4]
It should be straight, definitely looks like your barrel extension moved. I have no idea what Beretta's torque specs are for the barrel extension nut.
I'd be more comfortable having Beretta fix it, but they are gong to want the whole rifle back. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2020 10:58:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It should be straight, definitely looks like your barrel extension moved. I have no idea what Beretta's torque specs are for the barrel extension nut. I'd be more comfortable having Beretta fix it, but they are gong to want the whole rifle back. Quote HistoryQuoted: It should be straight, definitely looks like your barrel extension moved. I have no idea what Beretta's torque specs are for the barrel extension nut. I'd be more comfortable having Beretta fix it, but they are gong to want the whole rifle back. That's what I'm dreading. So much easier to throw the barrel into a box and send it on its way. Kind of ironic how a quick-change barrel needs the whole rifle to accompany it, but I'd rather have Beretta fix it at my expense. Quoted: Not trying to instigate, but even if it was properly tightened at the factory, whatever was used to clamp on the nut resulting in the teeth marks/scratches and for whatever reason there was for doing so seems much more likely than the ‘lathe story’, doesn’t it?!? Honestly have no idea where the teeth marks are from. I bought these brand new from Buds during their big blowout, so its not like they were display models that people mucked around with. They went from the warehouse to my FFL (who hadn't even unboxed them when I got there) to me. Before I sent it in, the only time the barrel had ever come out of the rifle was when I originally swapped the muzzle device, and I used a vise with a rubber barrel clamp. Dug up a picture from last year when I was originally doing one of them. Barrel nut was unmolested. It was a pain in the ass to align it, since I had to take the barrel clamp off and eyeball the bottom of the brake to the bottom flat of the gas block, but I eventually got it right.  Attached FileAlso, it is definitely the whole barrel that is canted. I knocked out the roll pin to verify that it wasn't just the gas block.  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 1:15:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine is like the "kept at home" one. Mine is like the "kept at home" one too... I can tell you that the muzzle device on mine when received NIB from the distributor had been installed by an 800lb Gorilla at Beretta. Even though I clamped the barrel in the barrel vise right behind the barrel swell at the muzzle, I was thinking that I might end up with a gain twist at the muzzle end when taking the device off. Since I like a FS (not brake) with gas exit symmetry at the muzzle, I installed an old Carlson Strike open-ended 6-prong flash suppressor that didn't require any special alignment, using an AR A1 lock washer. No problems getting anything lined up with that...  Forrest |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 1:48:55 AM EDT
[#7]
By the way, I wish you the very best of luck in getting your 'situation' resolved to your satisfaction.
Forrest |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 3:09:15 PM EDT
[#8]
I called Beretta and they said that the barrel was a non-serviceable part, and was discontinued. He wouldn't even give me the torque spec because it's not serviceable. I might be screwed.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 4:31:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I called Beretta and they said that the barrel was a non-serviceable part, and was discontinued. He wouldn't even give me the torque spec because it's not serviceable. I might be screwed. Really?!? Well that's the first that Beretta has admitted to anything being discontinued about the ARX. I guess those parts I've had on backorder through Brownells for over a year now are never coming at this point. Possible solution... Are those SBR barrels still floating around available to buy anywhere? Botach maybe? Might be able to get one of those to make your ARX whole again. Still available, but very expensive... https://botach.com/beretta-arx100-replacement-10-barrels/ I can't believe Beretta isn't willing to fix it since they are the only ones with the ability to do this correctly. I'm certain it would require a specialty jig to get everything lined up and Beretta is the only one in possession of that tooling. Here is a very short video from someone that had the barrel extension loosen up. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8TZgWk7LaY Beretta gave a different excuse (closed down due to COVID... Same reason for why Brownells isn't getting parts) for why they couldn't fix his, but they did admit that special tooling is required... This was back in April. I believe there is some sort of indexing/alignment tab involved hidden between the barrel extension and the nut and yours may be damaged since it came out of alignment. If no replacement parts are available then even a DIY approach leaves you screwed unless you can back engineer your own parts. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 5:19:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really?!? Well that's the first that Beretta has admitted to anything being discontinued about the ARX. I guess those parts I've had on backorder through Brownells for over a year now are never coming at this point. Possible solution... Are those SBR barrels still floating around available to buy anywhere? Botach maybe? Might be able to get one of those to make your ARX whole again. Still available, but very expensive... https://botach.com/beretta-arx100-replacement-10-barrels/ I can't believe Beretta isn't willing to fix it since they are the only ones with the ability to do this correctly. I'm certain it would require a specialty jig to get everything lined up and Beretta is the only one in possession of that tooling. Here is a very short video from someone that had the barrel extension loosen up. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8TZgWk7LaY Beretta gave a different excuse (closed down due to COVID... Same reason for why Brownells isn't getting parts) for why they couldn't fix his, but they did admit that special tooling is required... This was back in April. I believe there is some sort of indexing/alignment tab involved hidden between the barrel extension and the nut and yours may be damaged since it came out of alignment. If no replacement parts are available then even a DIY approach leaves you screwed unless you can back engineer your own parts. The horse's mouth said they were discontinued. So there we have it! I was eyeballing the Botach barrel, but I don't want to SBR it, nor do I want to pin/weld some goofy looking extension onto it. Plus the barrel is the same price I paid for the entire gun. You are 100% correct on the index block being there, I found a schematic. At this point I might just zip the barrel nut off and see what's going on. But on second thought, the guy in the video says "Emailed Beretta and they told me there is a toque spec and a headspace measurement that they need special tools to repair. Since they are based in a communist hellhole, they are still closed and can't do anything for me yet.", so maybe it's a bad idea. As a sidebar, Beretta can kiss my ass. I wrote them off years ago when I had issues with a brand new M9A1. I saw that the grip screw bushings were barely staked about an hour after I brought the gun home (I spun one out finger-tightening new grip panels on), and they wanted me to pay shipping to air-mail it to them. After I had it for an hour. The only reason I even gave these a shot were because they were so cheap, and I figured they'd be good to go. Fool me once and all that...  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 5:23:39 PM EDT
[#11]
This thread makes me glad I went with a factory SBR.
I hope you can get it fixed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 5:28:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This thread makes me glad I went with a factory SBR. I hope you can get it fixed. Tell me about it. There might be an unfired, SBR-able ARX with a fully-disclosed shitty pinned and welded factory barrel going up on the EE soon 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 5:31:05 PM EDT
[#13]
That just effin sucks, I really hate to say it but I would buy the expensive barrel at Botach if it were me, these rifles are already climbing up in price and if you consider
what you paid and divide it by 2 after getting the Botach barrel you'll still be in the black eventually and have 2 rifles that are good to go. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 5:32:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell me about it. There might be an unfired, SBR-able ARX with a fully-disclosed shitty pinned and welded factory barrel going up on the EE soon |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 5:33:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That just effin sucks, I really hate to say it but I would buy the expensive barrel at Botach if it were me, these rifles are already climbing up in price and if you consider what you paid and divide it by 2 after getting the Botach barrel you'll still be in the black eventually and have 2 rifles that are good to go.  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 5:42:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How much? I'm going to try a hail mary first and reach out to Midwest Gun Works and see if they have any experience with them. Apparently they do work for Beretta, and might be more helpful. After that, I'll have to decide if it's worth selling it off, or keeping as a parts gun for my second ARX. Got $800+tax+transfer fee into it, plus $240 for the chop/pin/weld, then all the other stuff I have on it that I have nothing else to put them on (Beretta pic rail adapter, extended charging handle, Troy Micro BUIS, Aimpoint Pro in an ADM low mount, etc). I'll be taking a hit either way. Just a really shitty situation all around. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 7:19:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The horse's mouth said they were discontinued. So there we have it! I was eyeballing the Botach barrel, but I don't want to SBR it, nor do I want to pin/weld some goofy looking extension onto it. Plus the barrel is the same price I paid for the entire gun. You are 100% correct on the index block being there, I found a schematic. At this point I might just zip the barrel nut off and see what's going on. But on second thought, the guy in the video says "Emailed Beretta and they told me there is a toque spec and a headspace measurement that they need special tools to repair. Since they are based in a communist hellhole, they are still closed and can't do anything for me yet.", so maybe it's a bad idea. As a sidebar, Beretta can kiss my ass. I wrote them off years ago when I had issues with a brand new M9A1. I saw that the grip screw bushings were barely staked about an hour after I brought the gun home (I spun one out finger-tightening new grip panels on), and they wanted me to pay shipping to air-mail it to them. After I had it for an hour. The only reason I even gave these a shot were because they were so cheap, and I figured they'd be good to go. Fool me once and all that... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/145290/Untitled_png-1732628.JPG The way that the barrel extension design looks, it appears that the ARX barrel extension design might not effect headspace like it would in messing with the barrel extension on an AR15... So long as you can reuse your extension, it just may be a simple mater of replacing the damaged indexing tab (if that's all that was damaged) and retightening the nut to the correct spec... But of course Beretta would have to be willing to give out the spec and a new indexing tab. I assume that both the barrel and the extension would have to be held fixed from being able to move or rotate while tightening the nut... This way the indexing tab will not be subjected to any of the torque forces. So you'd probably need 2 vises, one to hold the barrel in barrel blocks and one to hold a barrel extension via a barrel extension tool. This is absolutely ridiculous and Beretta should step up here. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 7:51:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The way that the barrel extension design looks, it appears that the ARX barrel extension design might not effect headspace like it would in messing with the barrel extension on an AR15... So long as you can reuse your extension, it just may be a simple mater of replacing the damaged indexing tab (if that's all that was damaged) and retightening the nut to the correct spec... But of course Beretta would have to be willing to give out the spec and a new indexing tab. I assume that both the barrel and the extension would have to be held fixed from being able to move or rotate while tightening the nut... This way the indexing tab will not be subjected to any of the torque forces. So you'd probably need 2 vises, one to hold the barrel in barrel blocks and one to hold a barrel extension via a barrel extension tool. This is absolutely ridiculous and Beretta should step up here. You can't even find the damn indexing tab anywhere. Unreal. Paid $240 for the chop/pin/weld and now I'm probably going to have to toss this entire barrel. Expensive lesson learned. I guess I need to start taking pictures of every single thing I send out and expect to be returned. The most frustrating part about it is that I can't really point a finger at anyone. I can't prove that it is the gunsmith's fault since I didn't have airtight photographic evidence right before I put it in the box, nor do I know 100% if Beretta slipped on their QC when torquing the barrel nut. I can't prove it's Beretta's fault because I don't know what happened to it while it was at the gunsmith. The gunsmith said they removed the gas block and clamped in in the lathe at the gas block journal area. I don't really know my way around lathes. For any machinists- Is there any way something could have hit that barrel nut while it was spinning and cause that index tab to shear? Also, anyone think I might be able to at least get the $240 I spent on the chop/pin/weld out of this barrel if I sold it off as-is? There might be an adventurous gunsmith/ARX owner out there who wants an unfired, yet jacked up barrel as a side project
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2020 10:13:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can't even find the damn indexing tab anywhere. Unreal. Paid $240 for the chop/pin/weld and now I'm probably going to have to toss this entire barrel. Expensive lesson learned. I guess I need to start taking pictures of every single thing I send out and expect to be returned. The most frustrating part about it is that I can't really point a finger at anyone. I can't prove that it is the gunsmith's fault since I didn't have airtight photographic evidence right before I put it in the box, nor do I know 100% if Beretta slipped on their QC when torquing the barrel nut. I can't prove it's Beretta's fault because I don't know what happened to it while it was at the gunsmith. The gunsmith said they removed the gas block and clamped in in the lathe at the gas block journal area. I don't really know my way around lathes. For any machinists- Is there any way something could have hit that barrel nut while it was spinning and cause that index tab to shear? Also, anyone think I might be able to at least get the $240 I spent on the chop/pin/weld out of this barrel if I sold it off as-is? There might be an adventurous gunsmith/ARX owner out there who wants an unfired, yet jacked up barrel as a side project I think ADCO has worked on a few ARX barrels, maybe @bigbore could offer some insight here? Maybe it's a long shot, but it wouldn't hurt to hear if he has any ideas about how an ARX barrel would be chucked up in a lathe and if it would have caused this? And possibly he might have an idea about how to fix it? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 9:07:46 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think ADCO has worked on a few ARX barrels, maybe @bigbore could offer some insight here? Maybe it's a long shot, but it wouldn't hurt to hear if he has any ideas about how an ARX barrel would be chucked up in a lathe and if it would have caused this? And possibly he might have an idea about how to fix it? We've done at least a dozen ARX barrels. The ARX barrel, like the SCAR barrels are held at the gas journal after removing the gas blocks. The marks on the extension nut may have been cause by bumping on the chuck jaws inserting and removing from the lathe. They dont look like wrench marks, and there as no signs of stress on the wrench flats. The initial/best hope here is that the soft coil pin was deformed when the gas block was re installed canting it - but it appears that's not the case based on the OPs pics. It should be practically impossible for an extension on any barrel to move, unless there was a defect from the factory. (The fact I offer a service to replace broken AR index pins tells you, those factory defects do exist.) As has been said, it doesn't look like the extension is threaded on, and if its just a slip on, held in place by in indexing key it should be a straight forward process to remove. Once removed it should be obvious whether or not that's how it left the factory. Hell, they may have completely forgotten to install the index key to begin with? Damaged Keys can be made new, but if the existing key is not damaged reassembling with a new one will just put it back together as it is now. Keep in mind when you go to remove the extension and torque that nut loose, you need to hold the extension and not the barrel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 9:27:52 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We've done at least a dozen ARX barrels. The ARX barrel, like the SCAR barrels are held at the gas journal after removing the gas blocks. The marks on the extension nut may have been cause by bumping on the chuck jaws inserting and removing from the lathe. They dont look like wrench marks, and there as no signs of stress on the wrench flats. The initial/best hope here is that the soft coil pin was deformed when the gas block was re installed canting it - but it appears that's not the case based on the OPs pics. It should be practically impossible for an extension on any barrel to move, unless there was a defect from the factory. (The fact I offer a service to replace broken AR index pins tells you, those factory defects do exist.) As has been said, it doesn't look like the extension is threaded on, and if its just a slip on, held in place by in indexing key it should be a straight forward process to remove. Once removed it should be obvious whether or not that's how it left the factory. Hell, they may have completely forgotten to install the index key to begin with? Damaged Keys can be made new, but if the existing key is not damaged reassembling with a new one will just put it back together as it is now. Keep in mind when you go to remove the extension and torque that nut loose, you need to hold the extension and not the barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think ADCO has worked on a few ARX barrels, maybe @bigbore could offer some insight here? Maybe it's a long shot, but it wouldn't hurt to hear if he has any ideas about how an ARX barrel would be chucked up in a lathe and if it would have caused this? And possibly he might have an idea about how to fix it? We've done at least a dozen ARX barrels. The ARX barrel, like the SCAR barrels are held at the gas journal after removing the gas blocks. The marks on the extension nut may have been cause by bumping on the chuck jaws inserting and removing from the lathe. They dont look like wrench marks, and there as no signs of stress on the wrench flats. The initial/best hope here is that the soft coil pin was deformed when the gas block was re installed canting it - but it appears that's not the case based on the OPs pics. It should be practically impossible for an extension on any barrel to move, unless there was a defect from the factory. (The fact I offer a service to replace broken AR index pins tells you, those factory defects do exist.) As has been said, it doesn't look like the extension is threaded on, and if its just a slip on, held in place by in indexing key it should be a straight forward process to remove. Once removed it should be obvious whether or not that's how it left the factory. Hell, they may have completely forgotten to install the index key to begin with? Damaged Keys can be made new, but if the existing key is not damaged reassembling with a new one will just put it back together as it is now. Keep in mind when you go to remove the extension and torque that nut loose, you need to hold the extension and not the barrel. Thanks for the detailed write-up! You make some good points. With how solid that indexing tab looks in the schematic, it would be interesting to see if there's even one in there at all, since it doesn't look like it can be easily sheared. As far as removing the nut, the barrel extension has a flat on the top of it, so I could probably pad a vise and get it to hold pretty well using that flat for leverage without mucking anything up. Might shoot some kroil in there and throw it in the freezer first or something. I'm guessing Beretta was probably blowing smoke up that guy's ass who posted in the youtube video, in regard to re-tightening and headspace. If it is slip on, as long as it has an adequate amount of torque for the assembly and it passes a go/no-go gauge, I can't see why you'd need a special method to torque it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 11:30:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the detailed write-up! You make some good points. With how solid that indexing tab looks in the schematic, it would be interesting to see if there's even one in there at all, since it doesn't look like it can be easily sheared. As far as removing the nut, the barrel extension has a flat on the top of it, so I could probably pad a vise and get it to hold pretty well using that flat for leverage without mucking anything up. Might shoot some kroil in there and throw it in the freezer first or something. I'm guessing Beretta was probably blowing smoke up that guy's ass who posted in the youtube video, in regard to re-tightening and headspace. If it is slip on, as long as it has an adequate amount of torque for the assembly and it passes a go/no-go gauge, I can't see why you'd need a special method to torque it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think ADCO has worked on a few ARX barrels, maybe @bigbore could offer some insight here? Maybe it's a long shot, but it wouldn't hurt to hear if he has any ideas about how an ARX barrel would be chucked up in a lathe and if it would have caused this? And possibly he might have an idea about how to fix it? We've done at least a dozen ARX barrels. The ARX barrel, like the SCAR barrels are held at the gas journal after removing the gas blocks. The marks on the extension nut may have been cause by bumping on the chuck jaws inserting and removing from the lathe. They dont look like wrench marks, and there as no signs of stress on the wrench flats. The initial/best hope here is that the soft coil pin was deformed when the gas block was re installed canting it - but it appears that's not the case based on the OPs pics. It should be practically impossible for an extension on any barrel to move, unless there was a defect from the factory. (The fact I offer a service to replace broken AR index pins tells you, those factory defects do exist.) As has been said, it doesn't look like the extension is threaded on, and if its just a slip on, held in place by in indexing key it should be a straight forward process to remove. Once removed it should be obvious whether or not that's how it left the factory. Hell, they may have completely forgotten to install the index key to begin with? Damaged Keys can be made new, but if the existing key is not damaged reassembling with a new one will just put it back together as it is now. Keep in mind when you go to remove the extension and torque that nut loose, you need to hold the extension and not the barrel. Thanks for the detailed write-up! You make some good points. With how solid that indexing tab looks in the schematic, it would be interesting to see if there's even one in there at all, since it doesn't look like it can be easily sheared. As far as removing the nut, the barrel extension has a flat on the top of it, so I could probably pad a vise and get it to hold pretty well using that flat for leverage without mucking anything up. Might shoot some kroil in there and throw it in the freezer first or something. I'm guessing Beretta was probably blowing smoke up that guy's ass who posted in the youtube video, in regard to re-tightening and headspace. If it is slip on, as long as it has an adequate amount of torque for the assembly and it passes a go/no-go gauge, I can't see why you'd need a special method to torque it. I knew bigbore would have some good advise to give.  If you do end up taking this thing apart be sure to post some pictures, I'd be interested to see an ARX barrel & barrel extension stripped down. The barrel is useless to you now, but I'd still approach disassembling it knowing that the parts are not replaceable... So be extra careful and hopefully you can pull out a miracle and save this thing. I'm not sure that clamping the extension between padded vise jaws is the best way, but maybe clamping an extension tool that slips into the extension would be the a better way to go. I have no idea if an extension tool for an AR15 barrel extension is compatible though. > Extension tool.And regarding Beretta telling that guy that this affects headspace, it wouldn't be the first time that Beretta CS was blowing smoke. And maybe you are just completely missing the indexing tab... It wouldn't be the first time that Beretta USA assembled something wrong on this rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 12:24:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I knew bigbore would have some good advise to give. If you do end up taking this thing apart be sure to post some pictures, I'd be interested to see an ARX barrel & barrel extension stripped down. The barrel is useless to you now, but I'd still approach disassembling it knowing that the parts are not replaceable... So be extra careful and hopefully you can pull out a miracle and save this thing. I'm not sure that clamping the extension between padded vise jaws is the best way, but maybe clamping an extension tool that slips into the extension would be the a better way to go. I have no idea if an extension tool for an AR15 barrel extension is compatible though. > Extension tool.And regarding Beretta telling that guy that this affects headspace, it wouldn't be the first time that Beretta CS was blowing smoke. And maybe you are just completely missing the indexing tab... It wouldn't be the first time that Beretta USA assembled something wrong on this rifle. I have a BEV block, but if the lugs aren't perfectly matched up, I don't want to risk screwing the innards of the extension up. The flat on top of the extension doesn't appear to affect anything if it were to be marred up, and the extension seems pretty beefy so I should be able to get a good clamp on it. I'm going to let it chill in the freezer for a little longer. I've had great luck getting stubborn stuff off (*cough* BCM/PSA *cough*) with ease doing the freezer/kroil method, so I wouldn't be surprised if the nut just zips right off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 1:38:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And regarding Beretta telling that guy that this affects headspace, it wouldn't be the first time that Beretta CS was blowing smoke. And maybe you are just completely missing the indexing tab... It wouldn't be the first time that Beretta USA assembled something wrong on this rifle. For as loose as his extension is, there doesn't seem to be any rotational play. I had wondered if the OPs nut was loose to begin with, could spinning the barrel at 2000RPM cause it to move? But again, the extension shouldn't be capable of rotational movement. Has anyone reached out to the guy in that video? Odds are he still has that barrel and can remove the extension and possibly compare parts with the OPs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 2:38:55 PM EDT
[#25]
For those interested in seeing the guts-
Looks like the culprit is the index tab being slightly too small (or the channels being slightly too big), allowing for a minimal amount of play between the extension and the barrel. There is zero galling or bare metal where the tab interfaces either. I'm not sure if it was the freezing/kroil, but the barrel nut came loose with a 6" wrench and only a bit of grunting on my end. It was definitely "snug, but not gorilla-tightened or anything. I'm imagining that the most likely possibility is the nut could have been just loose enough to allow the extension to shift in the lathe since the extension is a larger mass than the barrel, etc. I'm not a physics expert or a machinist, but that's all I can think of. The play is very minimal, but it is just enough to get it properly aligned by twisting the barrel and extension in opposite directions of how it was originally. Also, shame on Beretta for refusing to give out the torque specs for this thing. I don't see how a few ft/lbs here or there would have any impact on headspace.  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 2:51:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For those interested in seeing the guts- Looks like the culprit is the index tab being slightly too small (or the channels being slightly too big), allowing for a minimal amount of play between the extension and the barrel. There is zero galling or bare metal where the tab interfaces either. I'm not sure if it was the freezing/kroil, but the barrel nut came loose with a 6" wrench and only a bit of grunting on my end. It was definitely "snug, but not gorilla-tightened or anything. I'm imagining that the most likely possibility is the nut could have been just loose enough to allow the extension to shift in the lathe since the extension is a larger mass than the barrel, etc. I'm not a physics expert or a machinist, but that's all I can think of. The play is very minimal, but it is just enough to get it properly aligned by twisting the barrel and extension in opposite directions of how it was originally. Also, shame on Beretta for refusing to give out the torque specs for this thing. I don't see how a few ft/lbs here or there would have any impact on headspace. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/145290/20201216_122705_jpg-1733848.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/145290/20201216_122714_jpg-1733849.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/145290/20201216_124409_jpg-1733850.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/145290/20201216_122910_jpg-1733852.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/145290/20201216_122937_jpg-1733853.JPG Do you have any surefire shim kits laying around? The thinnest are paper thin and can be cut up with scissors. I'll bet you can cut pieces small enough to shim that gap so your barrel aligns properly. I've done so with other things that needed indexing. If you want I can send you a few shims, or you can send in your rifle after the holidays and I'll do it.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 2:59:56 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have any surefire shim kits laying around? The thinnest are paper thin and can be cut up with scissors. I'll bet you can cut pieces small enough to shim that gap so your barrel aligns properly. I've done so with other things that needed indexing. If you want I can send you a few shims, or you can send in your rifle after the holidays and I'll do it. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/12678/SFshims-1733875.jpg Wow, thank you for the offer! I will most likely take you up on that. ADCO comes through again 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 3:40:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Thanks for the pictures! So none of the parts appear to be damaged at all from what I can see. The channel for the indexing tab is a tiny bit oversized, but this isn't looking like an impossible fix.
ADCO and bigbore are awesome! You'll probably need to send them the whole rifle so they can determine how many shims and what side of the indexing tab to shim on to get it lined back up right, but I'd definitely take them up on that offer. I'm sure Beretta has a jig at their factory for keeping things lined up as they torque the nut. Just insane that they wouldn't offer to fix what seems to be such a simple job with the right tooling.However, I'd still keep pushing them for the torque spec and if an assembly grease or threadlocker is required... I'd assume grease or anti-seize would be required for this, though I really have no idea... The guy with the loose extension in the YouTube video said he was going to use threadlocker to reassemble. Also, if you pay close attention you can see a tiny bit of rotational play in his barrel extension as well when he slides it back and forth. Did you talk to Beretta CS over the phone or through email? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 4:00:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Thanks for the pictures! So none of the parts appear to be damaged at all from what I can see. The channel for the indexing tab is a tiny bit oversized, but this isn't looking like an impossible fix. ADCO and bigbore are awesome! You'll probably need to send them the whole rifle so they can determine how many shims and what side of the indexing tab to shim on to get it lined back up right, but I'd definitely take them up on that offer. I'm sure Beretta has a jig at their factory for keeping things lined up as they torque the nut. Just insane that they wouldn't offer to fix what seems to be such a simple job with the right tooling.However, I'd still keep pushing them for the torque spec and if an assembly grease or threadlocker is required... I'd assume grease or anti-seize would be required for this, though I really have no idea... The guy with the loose extension in the YouTube video said he was going to use threadlocker to reassemble. Did you talk to Beretta CS over the phone or through email? I talked to Beretta over the phone. They are historically the worst I've ever dealt with, and I was dreading calling them about this because of my past experiences. They definitely met my expectations. The only Beretta stuff I have now after the M9 debacle are these two ARX's (that were too good of a price to pass up) and a BU9 Nano that was was pretty much given away as a sweetener in a trade that was already well-weighted in my favor to begin with. What I'm curious to know is how they plan on warrantying any ARX's that are new old stock when they don't have any more spare parts. Maybe they squirreled some away, but if a dealer sells a "new" ARX-100 in 3-5 years that has been collecting dust in their shop, that owner might be SOL. There was a very light coating of anti-seize on the barrel nut threads (ask my hands how I know ), but that was it. The plus side on the alignment is that it has to hit full stop in order for the gas piston to be top dead center and the gas block to be parallel, so you shouldn't have to put X number of shims on one side, and X number on the other.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 6:12:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I talked to Beretta over the phone. They are historically the worst I've ever dealt with, and I was dreading calling them about this because of my past experiences. They definitely met my expectations. The only Beretta stuff I have now after the M9 debacle are these two ARX's (that were too good of a price to pass up) and a BU9 Nano that was was pretty much given away as a sweetener in a trade that was already well-weighted in my favor to begin with. What I'm curious to know is how they plan on warrantying any ARX's that are new old stock when they don't have any more spare parts. Maybe they squirreled some away, but if a dealer sells a "new" ARX-100 in 3-5 years that has been collecting dust in their shop, that owner might be SOL. There was a very light coating of anti-seize on the barrel nut threads (ask my hands how I know ), but that was it. The plus side on the alignment is that it has to hit full stop in order for the gas piston to be top dead center and the gas block to be parallel, so you shouldn't have to put X number of shims on one side, and X number on the other.I think I'll try asking them what the torque spec is through their online CS form and see if that gets me anywhere. Edit: Lol! maybe I won't be able to ask about it... I've been trying to log in and it won't let me, even after resetting my password.  Maybe you might have better luck. > https://www.berettasupport.com/
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 7:24:40 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm glad you jumped in and took it on yourself, I think you're going to get it squared away. Maybe search for Beretta authorized repair gunsmiths and do some calling around to
them to get the torque lbs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 7:28:02 PM EDT
[#32]
It might sound stupid, but maybe try emailing the Italian customer service?
Is the gunsmith also trying to check to fix it? Maybe they'd have different luck. Not sure if anyone on Berettaforum has a better contact, but worth a try also. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 7:32:09 PM EDT
[#33]
I found some of those similar shims that bigbore had referenced in my parts bin, and I ordered a set of Forster headspace gauges just to play it safe. Once I figure out the torque values, I'm just going to reapply grease and torque the sucker down. If it passes with the gauges, I don't see any issues arising.
Maybe I'll call Beretta back tomorrow and pretend to be someone else
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 7:36:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It might sound stupid, but maybe try emailing the Italian customer service? Is the gunsmith also trying to check to fix it? Maybe they'd have different luck. Not sure if anyone on Berettaforum has a better contact, but worth a try also. The gunsmith has gone out of their way to offer help me out. Now that I've verified that this index tab is loose and that there is no galling or any other damage to the parts, it is apparent that it had nothing to do with the gunsmith whatsoever, so I don't really want to hassle them. The barrel nut came off pretty easily, and the thing shouldn't shift just because it is spinning in a lathe. Good idea with checking on Berettaforum and the Italian CS. Didn't know that a two digit torque value was classified information. Hah. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2020 8:06:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The gunsmith has gone out of their way to offer help me out. Now that I've verified that this index tab is loose and that there is no galling or any other damage to the parts, it is apparent that it had nothing to do with the gunsmith whatsoever, so I don't really want to hassle them. The barrel nut came off pretty easily, and the thing shouldn't shift just because it is spinning in a lathe. Good idea with checking on Berettaforum and the Italian CS. Didn't know that a two digit torque value was classified information. Hah. Even if you do manage to get them to tell you a torque spec for the barrel extension nut, be sure to proceed with caution because it might be way the heck off... I asked Beretta CS what their torque specs were for the side and top rail screws and they said it was 25 to 30 inch pounds which badly mangled the Torx drive slots in the screws when I went to install them, so I had to drop the torque down to 10 inch pounds for the side rail screws and 15 inch pounds for the top rail screws. I guess they just wanted to sell more replacement screws to me through Brownells or something.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2020 7:23:51 AM EDT
[#36]
One could likely do this without jigs or shims. The extension forward face/barrel surfaces should be clean and dry. The nut/barrel forward face should be well lubed. Just position things appropriately before torquing. The clamping force of the nut should keep the dry extension interface from moving provided there’s as much as possible less friction at the nut/barrel interface.
In addition, if the nut is near the same size as an ar15 barrel nut, just use 30 ft lb. I suspect it’s not critical and just needs to be tight enough to stay put. The range on an AR (steel/aluminum) is 30-80 ft lb and this application is steel/steel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2020 12:09:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One could likely do this without jigs or shims. The extension forward face/barrel surfaces should be clean and dry. The nut/barrel forward face should be well lubed. Just position things appropriately before torquing. The clamping force of the nut should keep the dry extension interface from moving provided there’s as much as possible less friction at the nut/barrel interface. In addition, if the nut is near the same size as an ar15 barrel nut, just use 30 ft lb. I suspect it’s not critical and just needs to be tight enough to stay put. The range on an AR (steel/aluminum) is 30-80 ft lb and this application is steel/steel. I think you're probably on the right track, I doubt that the ARX barrel extension is meant to be torqued on with 150 foot pounds of torque like an AR15 barrel extension. Just looking at the design it's very similar to how a barrel is installed on an AR, but the ARX's barrel extension plays the part of the upper receiver. I'm so curious as to Beretta's torque spec on this that it's probably going to make me loose sleep. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2020 12:40:22 PM EDT
[#38]
I really like the idea of contacting CS in Italy, that's definitely thinking outside the box.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2020 12:54:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I really like the idea of contacting CS in Italy, that's definitely thinking outside the box. Anyone speak Italian here?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2020 1:27:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you're probably on the right track, I doubt that the ARX barrel extension is meant to be torqued on with 150 foot pounds of torque like an AR15 barrel extension. Just looking at the design it's very similar to how a barrel is installed on an AR, but the ARX's barrel extension plays the part of the upper receiver. I'm so curious as to Beretta's torque spec on this that it's probably going to make me loose sleep. I e-mailed support instead of calling, so we'll see what they come back with. I'm sure something between 30-50 ft lbs is perfectly fine, as said before, being that it's all steel. It would just be nice to hear from the horse's mouth. Either way, appreciate everyone's support and advice. Big shout out to ADCO as well for the offer to look at it, and for the shimming idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2020 2:01:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I e-mailed support instead of calling, so we'll see what they come back with. I'm sure something between 30-50 ft lbs is perfectly fine, as said before, being that it's all steel. It would just be nice to hear from the horse's mouth. Either way, appreciate everyone's support and advice. Big shout out to ADCO as well for the offer to look at it, and for the shimming idea. You probably already thought of this, but you might also send Beretta a link to this thread. They've probably already seen it, but you never know... Forrest |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/17/2020 2:21:53 PM EDT
[#42]
I started a thread linking to this thread over on the Beretta forum, but I doubt anyone will know the answer on the torque spec for the barrel extension nut... Worth a shot though. > Link.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2020 11:03:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Still crickets from Beretta via e-mail. No joy on the Berettaforum thread either. I will update if I hear anything concrete.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2020 11:49:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Usually takes a few days to get a reply on the Beretta customer service page I linked to, plus it's Christmas coming up so that will probably delay it even further.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/23/2020 4:07:40 PM EDT
[#45]
This sucks, but at the same time you had a third party modify your gun, it broke, and you want Beretta to fix it. Not sure that’s appropriate. If the barrel is unserviceable the gunsmith should fix it or replace it - it’s not Beretta’s responsibility at that point.
Personally I’d hunt down an extra barrel. I’ve got two 16” spares in my safe in case of emergency. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/23/2020 4:34:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This sucks, but at the same time you had a third party modify your gun, it broke, and you want Beretta to fix it. Not sure that’s appropriate. If the barrel is unserviceable the gunsmith should fix it or replace it - it’s not Beretta’s responsibility at that point. Personally I’d hunt down an extra barrel. I’ve got two 16” spares in my safe in case of emergency. I never asked Beretta to fix it at their expense. I would have paid for it (aside from it being modified, it was out of warranty anyway). I then asked them for a torque value, which they wouldn't provide. Clearly these nuts can come loose, as demonstrated by that YouTube video. If Beretta can't QC these things enough to ensure that they are properly tightened, the least they can do is let owners know what the torque range is for the nut. I'm not putting this on the gunsmith. I spoke with the gunsmith, and they proved they were exercising due diligence by removing the gas block/piston assembly to ensure a concentric profile on the lathe. If the nut wasn't tightened to spec at the factory and it shifted from being on the lathe, how is that the gunsmith's fault? That would be like taking my car in for an oil change, then blaming the shop owner because my transmission blew shortly afterwards. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2021 9:26:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Update for anyone interested:
I shimmed the free space in the alignment key, put a little bit of grease on the threads, and torqued to 45 ft-lbs while hand-holding the barrel in position to ensure final alignment (the shims removed most of the slop but not all of it). I'm not sure if Beretta uses SAE/Metric for certain parts (I'm assuming Metric because of where this rifle originated), but I had a 15/16" crows foot on hand and it fit without much slop. 23mm might be right on the money though. Gas block ended up being exactly parallel with the upper receiver. Headspace gauges checked out fine. Took it to the range today and it ran like a sewing machine. Started out with some bunny fart steel case stuff, and worked my way up to a box of that super hot IMI stuff from the batch that was popping primers. I was impressed that the steel cased stuff was cycling with authority even with the reduced gas pressure from the barrel chop. Didn't have to change it to non-standard/adverse/whatever. If anyone's barrel nut comes loose, don't buy into Beretta's BS. I don't really think the gauges were necessary, as I can't see how fastening hardened steel to hardened steel would affect headspace that much. Doesn't hurt to be safe though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2021 9:11:29 AM EDT
[#48]
Glad it worked out, thanks for the update and info.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2021 7:41:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Thanks for the update, glad it worked out. So I guess Beretta isn't getting back to you with that torque spec.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2021 11:39:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the update, glad it worked out. So I guess Beretta isn't getting back to you with that torque spec. Nope. I figured they wouldn't respond. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
