I finally got around to buying my first muzzleloader and got to shoot it for the first time today. Wow, I would have never thought that they would be so much fun!

Am I blind or is there no muzzleloader forum here on Arfcom?

FYI - I bought the el cheapo Beartooth Magnum from Bass Pro and it is shooting softball size groups at 100 yards with iron sights.

edited for poll and to say "pay attention Goatboy!"

They're fun to shoot for about an hour a year.  I use mine for hunting a few days out of the year and shoot if before the season starts to check my zero.  Thats it.  

Don't bother buying the expensive black powder solvents and things like that.  The absolute best way to clean a muzzleloader is with warm soapy water. Dry it, and cover everything with a thin coat of CLP.  I've cleaned my in-line this way for years and no rust yet.  

It'd be nice to see muzzle loaders get their own forum, but I don't think there's enough interest.
Soapy water is the way to go for cleaning. And clean it promptly when you are done shooting as well.

Yes, I love to shoot smokepoles.  My favorite deer hunting weapon and a lot of fun at the range.  I'm shooting a 50 caliber Lyman Great Plains Rifle...like all my guns, it shoots better than I can....

Main thing is clean it right away after shooting...black powder and the like are very corrosive.  I use hot, soapy water like everyone else has said, but also mix in some Windex with the water.  The ammonia in the Windex helps cut the corrosive salts.  Be sure to rinse it several times with hot, hot water once you are finished.  Then dry the barrel and coat with oil.  Take care of the rifle properly and it will last and last.

By the way, has anyone heard anything on the new muzzleloader that Savage has put out that uses smokeless powder??  Not exactly a primitive weapon, but the upkeep would be much easier.

                                  ......Keith

I bought an inexpensive CVA Staghorn for just under $100 about four years ago.  I went the cheap route to see if I'd really like muzzleload hunting.  I found out I did enjoy it and you don't need to spend a fortune to get a decent muzzleloader.  Took a 6-point buck with it opening day of primitive weapons season.

I bought the CVA start kit, which came with a video.  I've always just followed the suggestions in the video.  All the parts get soaked in hot soapy water.  Same for the barrel.  However, I do then use the black powder solvent on the barrel.  

I quickly switched to pyrodex pellets.  You guys use powder or pellets?

I am friends with a number of guys who have bought new muzzle loaders in the last year or so.  It has been a very frustrating experience for most of us.  I'd love to have a place to gain insight on these damned things, but I bet such a forum would get very little trafic.

I only shoot powder and only Goex Blackpowder, not Pyrodex.  Just a personal preference.  I know some folks latch on to the blackpowder vs. Pyrodex discussion like it was the holy grail or something...for me, it is simply what I prefer to use.  If someone else wants to use a blackpowder substitute or pellets...fine....

I also only shoot patched round balls...this is what my smokepole was designed for...not conicals or sabots.  I've got plenty of accuracy at 100 yards which is about as far a shot as I'm likely to get in the areas I hunt.

Quoted: I only shoot powder and only Goex Blackpowder, not Pyrodex.  Just a personal preference.  I know some folks latch on to the blackpowder vs. Pyrodex discussion like it was the holy grail or something...for me, it is simply what I prefer to use.  If someone else wants to use a blackpowder substitute or pellets...fine....

I use BP in my traditional rifles. I use pellets in my in-lines. I'd rather use pyrodex powder all round, but. My caplocks don't like pyrodex for some reason. The in-lines have issues with powder. Lot's of blowback, and the nipples on the no. 11 primed rifle get fouled to the point you can't shoot more than 2 or 3 rounds without disassembly. I never tried anything but pellets in my 209 primed rifle. Seemed pointless in a rifle as modern as it is.

I also only shoot patched round balls...this is what my smokepole was designed for...not conicals or sabots.  I've got plenty of accuracy at 100 yards which is about as far a shot as I'm likely to get in the areas I hunt.

I don't think that's a good idea for deer size game. I wouldn't try it at that range anyway. Is the twist insufficient for conicals? I'm not saying it can't be done, I did it for years, but I've since learned better. If your rifle can handle conicals, I'd say use them.

Quoted: I am friends with a number of guys who have bought new muzzle loaders in the last year or so.  It has been a very frustrating experience for most of us.  I'd love to have a place to gain insight on these damned things, but I bet such a forum would get very little trafic.

So, share. What issues are you having?

The twist rate on the Great Plains rifle is not sufficient to spin a conical bullet...it is designed to shoot round ball.  At 100 yards it will drop deer without any problems...probably will do it at longer ranges, but 100 is my max range for my comfort.

oh yea i love black powder hunting. i have 3 .50 cal rifles 2 CVA Still new in the box, and my old trusty TC New Englander tapped with high rise see threw scope mounts with a 3x9x32 simmons scope. now me personally i use pyrodex 90grains with 490.patched round balls (i mold myself) 100 yards is the max i shoot, well thats what i sight in for. could i shoot longer distances? sure but my groups open up alot with round balls. i have shot many a deer with this old girl, never a misfire ever.

I use CleanShot pellets.  They have been out the last couple of years.  They are awesome.  They look like the Pyrodex pellets but are formulated with potassium nitrate and carbon only!--no sulfur.  They also don't have the hole down the middle.  It is a dream to clean.  You still have to use soapy warm water, but none of the nasty sulfur by-product smell.  If you haven't tried the CleanShot pellets, it is well worth it.  It's maybe a few dollars more than Pyrodex pellets.  

As far as ammo, why not sabots with expanding bullets?  It's what I use--TC Mag Sabots .50 cal. 240gr. XTP with .44cal. bullet.  Faster expanding bullet that creates more havoc in the deers chest.  Muzzleloader season starts Nov. 1 here.

Always thought about getting into blackpowder.  It would give me a deer season from October to February in New Jersey.

We shoot muzzleloaders all the time.

I used to deer hunt every year during the black powder season but now that everyone and their brother is in the woods with those POS modern inline rifles it took all the fun out of it.

I get a kick out of these morons when they explain just how easy they are to clean. They have spend more time trying to remove the breech plug and all that other BS than it takes me to clean two flintlocks.

I really hope that every state outlaws their use in the muzzleloading season.

I am a fan of the traditional rifles but I like the inlines for just plain shooting because I like all guns.
I have been hunting with my old TC hawkin 50 since 1976 and have been a bp and roundball or maxi ball shooter only, I even mold my own bullits.
My personal feeling is that only the traditional rifles should be used for the primitive hunts but thats my preferance.

Quoted: They're fun to shoot for about an hour a year.  I use mine for hunting a few days out of the year and shoot if before the season starts to check my zero.  Thats it.   Don't bother buying the expensive black powder solvents and things like that.  The absolute best way to clean a muzzleloader is with warm soapy water. Dry it, and cover everything with a thin coat of CLP.  I've cleaned my in-line this way for years and no rust yet.

Good advice on the warm soapy water for cleaning, its the best and I hace done only that on my rifle since 1976 and the bore is still perfect.

I'd like to see a forum for muzzleloaders, simply because I know nothing about 'em (well, ok, I know the basic idea...powder, ball, cap, boom, big cloud of smoke)

I keep looking at 'em, but the more I look, the more I want replicas of historical pieces, not the "buy it at basspro" types.  no offense, guys, but modern muzzleloaders don't do anything for me.

-FOTBR

Quoted: We shoot muzzleloaders all the time. I used to deer hunt every year during the black powder season but now that everyone and their brother is in the woods with those POS modern inline rifles it took all the fun out of it. I get a kick out of these morons when they explain just how easy they are to clean. They have spend more time trying to remove the breech plug and all that other BS than it takes me to clean two flintlocks. I really hope that every state outlaws their use in the muzzleloading season.

No flame, but I totally disagree with you.  

An in-line is no faster to reload than a conventional muzzleloader and you have no more tactical advantage in the woods against game.  

The big difference is in cleaning.  I don't know who has a hard time with the breech plug, because in takes me literally 10 seconds to remove mine from my Ruger M77/50.  I screw in the threaded plastic tube it comes with, run hot soapy water down the barrel, rinse with hot water and then run some patches down the barrel and finish off with a an oiled patch.  I can easily inspect the entire length of the bore which you cannot do with a sidelock.  There is always a mystery as to whether everything is cleaned out of the barrel and there is no way to inspect for rust.

And as mentioned in my other post above, CleanShot pellets make cleaning much easier and more pleasant.

Just my 2 cents.

The only reason the blackpowder hunting seasons exist is because buckskinners and the owners and shooters of the pre 1840 style rifles spent time and money to lobby the law makers in their states to set aside a seperate season for THEM away from MODERN firearms and other hunters using modern firearms.

Inline muzzleloaders allow those without the ability or desire to learn to use a real rifle to cheat and hunt in a season where they do not belong.

That is the only advantage they offer.

Quoted: The only reason the blackpowder hunting seasons exist is because buckskinners and the owners and shooters of the pre 1840 style rifles spent time and money to lobby the law makers in their states to set aside a seperate season for THEM away from MODERN firearms and other hunters using modern firearms.

In NH the muzzleloader season starts Nov. 1 and you can hunt with a muzzleloader only  for the first 1 1/2 weeks.  So they are separated from hunters with firearms using smokeless powder/more modern cartridges.  If it isn't like that in KY, then it is your responsibility to lobby law makers to change it.    

Quoted: Inline muzzleloaders allow those without the ability or desire to learn to use a real rifle to cheat and hunt in a season where they do not belong. That is the only advantage they offer.

That is simply a mean-spirited statement.  

In-line muzzleloaders are no faster to reload through the muzzle than older style ones, and offer the advantage to be able to thoroughly clean your rifle.  So how is this cheating?  I own a flintlock and a sidelock and your statement makes absolutely no sense.  What is so special about these rifles that requires superior technical knowledge or skill, other than being a more careful about moisture?  It has always been straightforward to me.  

The number of hunters in this country is falling every year.  Instead of being happy about something that encourages more people to get out into the woods, you critisize it.  That is a negative, elitist and short-sighted attitude.  

Very well said, C-4.  I hunt with a compound bow.  Until last year, it was only legal to hunt with a crossbow if you had a physical handicap.  Now anyone in Georgia can hunt with a crossbow during archery and primitive weapons seasons.  Several friends were bad-mouthing all the first-time archery hunters with their crossbows.  I introduced all my compound-bow friends to my friend who only hunts with a recurve and he makes his own arrows to boot.  I never heard another word about equipment used by other hunters.  

No matter where you go, someone will act condescendingly towards others deemed inferior for whatever reason.  In this case, it’s because of equipment choice.  

These black powder snobs are no different than trap shooters looking down their noses at our evil "assault rifles". If they had there way, in-lines would be banned.

Quoted: These black powder snobs are no different than trap shooters looking down their noses at our evil "assault rifles". If they had there way, in-lines would be banned.

You are correct. they should be banned FOR USE IN THE MUZZLELOADING SEASON.

They are modern guns that use modern scopes, shoot modern powder and fire a modern plastic covered JHP bullet.

It is not about being a snob. It is about going where you don't belong and are not wanted.

It is about cheating and bending the rules just so you can hunt is a special season that belongs to someone else.

It is about sneaking in the back door when you have not earning the right to be there.

I could not care less if you wish to hunt with your inline muzzleloader in modern gun season because that is where it belongs and most of you KNOW that.

cornbread2, when you hunt, do you hunt from a tree stand you made from timber you cut?  Did you drive your truck to get to your hunting land?  Do you take a cell phone, propane lantern, flashlight, powder horn you didn’t make or any other modern conveniences?  Do you process your own meat (I do)?

Obviously, I’m just being facetious to make a point.  Where do we draw the line on modern versus primitive?

BTW, in Georgia we can not use optics with muzzleloaders.  

The origional intent was for the hunters in muzzleloading season to hunt with pre 1840 style guns and that is the whole point of the season and the entire reason it was started.

There are buckskinners that used to hunt in their period attire and camp in a primitive camp during the season. Some still do that have a hell of a lot of private land.

Most can't do it now because if they are within 100 miles of the public the woods is completly over run with people with inline rifles shooting at anything that moves just like in modern gun seasons. If they ventured out of camp wearing anything but a full orange suit they would get shot.

Understood.  For me, I choose an in-line because of a perceived safety reason.  I didn't know anyone who hunted with muzzleloaders and had limited person-to-person information.  In other words, I had no one to show me how to do things properly and safely.  I was told the chances of a misfire were less with an in-line than a flintlock.  

I hunt 500 acres of private land with only three other guys.  I've hunted WMA areas though, so I can understand your frustration with other hunters.  Just like with the crossbows.  Around here guys who have never shot a bow are buying crossbows, shooting them a few times and hunting with them.  I practice with my bow all year.  So, again, I see your point.

But I'll still have to disagree with you regarding "cheating and bending the rules."  I just don't get this point.  To me, the only difference in an in-line and other muzzleloaders is the ignition system.  I will conceed with in-lines you don't have as much concern for weather.  But it's still iron sights with one shot.  I don't think a conical projectile matter much over balls.  In fact, with some rifles patched balls are more accurate.

So, we disagree and have different opinions.  Such is life.  

Quoted: The only reason the blackpowder hunting seasons exist is because buckskinners and the owners and shooters of the pre 1840 style rifles spent time and money to lobby the law makers in their states to set aside a seperate season for THEM away from MODERN firearms and other hunters using modern firearms. Inline muzzleloaders allow those without the ability or desire to learn to use a real rifle to cheat and hunt in a season where they do not belong. That is the only advantage they offer.

So, now that I have been ridiculed for trying something new, will you vote yes for my poll? Maybe if there was a forum, I would have known better than to have bought that evil, cheating, long distance, bullet hose of a weapon for $125. I guess the DC "snipers" should have used an inline.

At least I am learning a few things about blackpowder here.

Quoted: The origional intent was for the hunters in muzzleloading season to hunt with pre 1840 style guns and that is the whole point of the season and the entire reason it was started. There are buckskinners that used to hunt in their period attire and camp in a primitive camp during the season. Some still do that have a hell of a lot of private land. Most can't do it now because if they are within 100 miles of the public the woods is completly over run with people with inline rifles shooting at anything that moves just like in modern gun seasons. If they ventured out of camp wearing anything but a full orange suit they would get shot.

I just recently purchased an 1961 Springfield rifled musket replica made by Armi-Sport.  I have no intentions of hunting with this arm.  My interests in muzzleloaders lie more in the area of historical military arms.

What I do not understand are the real differences between inline and traditional percussion cap muzzleloaders you seem to be so upset about.  What are they?  The only differences I see are the ease of maintenance and protection from moisture.  They are no more accurate than traditional muzzleloaders and the two types accept identical projectiles and propellant.  You can mount optics to both types. That leaves only one criteria:  physical style.  I would agree with you that the inlines are indeed ugly.  Regardless, that factor offers no advantages under field conditions.

I ask you what, exactly, makes the inline muzzleloader so unsuited to primitive firearms season?  Objective evidence only, please.

Once again.

The muzzleloading seasons only exist because buckskinners and the owners and shooters of the pre 1840 type rifles spent THEIR time and money to persuade the state's law makers to give them this season.

This is fact. This is way we have these seasons. Clear enough? If you do not wish to or do not have the ability to learn to use a rifle such as this then you have NO BUSINESS in this season. You are going where you are not wanted and do not belong. It would be the same if you showed up at Corvette rally driving a Yugo just so you could eat their food and mess with their women. You can claim your Yugo while it is not really a Corvette it is still a car so you have the right to be there.

There is always the group of people that wish to deer hunt by any means they can. They don't care about anything but killing the deer and ridling around with it thrown accross the hood of their trucks.

Before the inline came along these people did not hunt in the muzzleloading season because they were too lazy and ignorant to use a tradional rifle. They wanted no part of it.

Then someone came along claiming the inline was so easy to clean and so reliable that any moron can use one.

These people bought them by the thousands and now the woods are full of idiots in the muzzleloading season where they do not belong.

You also have the hunters that can't shoot. Because they lack the basic rifleman skills they can't use iron sights and are just poor shots all around. They look for a solution for their poor shooting skills through technology.

The inline makers claim more accuracy and greater range so a lot of these people buy them for that reason.

Whatever reason they give they still do not belong in the muzzleloading season because it was not designed for these rifles and these type people.

If you wish to hunt with a modern firearm use them in the modern gun season where they belong.

Your Springfield musket while not a true pre 1840 rifle is still a tradional style rifle and not a plastic modern design and would be at home in this season.

Very well.  You have a right to be upset if you fell those that did not pay their dues are taking advantage of the fruits won by those that did.  I understand.

I still don't think the silly looking inlines offer any significant advantage in the field.

I've always had a problem with ugly guns.  As they say, though, beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder .

BTW - I voted YES to the Muzzleloader Forum.

Hi everyone,
I've been triing to stay away from this thread but i have been assimilated. (we'll see how it goes from here, eh?)

I voted yes in the poll, finally, because I am seeing the same thing here, in this thread, that i see in any BP discussion; Agreement, dissention, technical questions and answers, etc.
Maybe it IS time to make a place to talk about muzzleloaders (without disturbing the neighbors).

I hesitated to join because i am not of one opinion.  Yes i like traditional-I mould all my balls, i hunt with a flint-lock (in the snow, yee-haw!), I appreciate the workmanship and quality of the TC Hawkins (of which i have two, 50 & 45 cal).  I also shoot the inline, with a scope and a Monte Carlo stock (Polymer).  I was also reading the comments about bows, modern and traditional. I shoot an old Bear compound- I won't tell you how old, i might be giving away my age.

This bickering reminds me of the Trap guys vs. the Skeet guys. At best-a friendly camraderie, at worst-an us against them divisiveness. But either way, a forum for just BP issues-all theses issues-might be a good idea.

Over and out,
rogerball

Quoted: I still don't think the silly looking inlines offer any significant advantage in the field.

They have one advantage in the field. They are more reliable when dirty.

Those that hunt with flintlocks and traditional cap lock rifles know that you have to hunt with a clean rifle for it to be reliable.

We load a clean and dry rifle with real blackpowder correctly and we know it will fire.

Blackpowder and Pryodex fouling is hydroscopic. It attracts moisture out of the air. If you hunt with a dirty gun it may not fire because the charge gets damp. A clean caplock or a clean properly loaded flintlock is reliable.

Once again the inline with their shotgun primers allow lazy hunters too sorry to clean their rifles before the hunt a better chance at getting a deer. That is their advantage.

Pryodex is one of the reasons inlines have become so pouplar.

Pryodex is crap compared to blackpowder. Pryodex ignites at 750 degrees. Blackpowder ignites from 300 to 350 degrees.

Combine the high ignition temp and idiots hunting with a dirty rifle causes problems with tradional caplock rifles.

They get a deer in their sights and the rifle missfires.

Since they blame the rifle itself instead of their ignorance they buy an inline because they are supposed to be more reliable.

Quoted: Quoted: I still don't think the silly looking inlines offer any significant advantage in the field. They have one advantage in the field. They are more reliable when dirty. Those that hunt with flintlocks and traditional cap lock rifles know that you have to hunt with a clean rifle for it to be reliable. We load a clean and dry rifle with real blackpowder correctly and we know it will fire. Blackpowder and Pryodex fouling is hydroscopic. It attracts moisture out of the air. If you hunt with a dirty gun it may not fire because the charge gets damp. A clean caplock or a clean properly loaded flintlock is reliable. Once again the inline with their shotgun primers allow lazy hunters too sorry to clean their rifles before the hunt a better chance at getting a deer. That is their advantage. Pryodex is one of the reasons inlines have become so pouplar. Pryodex is crap compared to blackpowder. Pryodex ignites at 750 degrees. Blackpowder ignites from 300 to 350 degrees. Combine the high ignition temp and idiots hunting with a dirty rifle causes problems with tradional caplock rifles. They get a deer in their sights and the rifle missfires. Since they blame the rifle itself instead of their ignorance they buy an inline because they are supposed to be more reliable.

OK.  I learn something new evey day here on ARFCOM.

Quoted: I still don't think the silly looking inlines offer any significant advantage in the field.

You would be correct.

Quoted: They have one advantage in the field. They are more reliable when dirty. Those that hunt with flintlocks and traditional cap lock rifles know that you have to hunt with a clean rifle for it to be reliable. We load a clean and dry rifle with real blackpowder correctly and we know it will fire. Blackpowder and Pryodex fouling is hydroscopic. It attracts moisture out of the air. If you hunt with a dirty gun it may not fire because the charge gets damp. A clean caplock or a clean properly loaded flintlock is reliable. Once again the inline with their shotgun primers allow lazy hunters too sorry to clean their rifles before the hunt a better chance at getting a deer. That is their advantage.

As in my earlier post, I explained how in-line muzzleloaders are easier to clean as you can clean/inspect the entire length of the barrel, without leaving any 'mystery' areas that may hide rust, fowling or other deposits.  A dirty inline is no more reliable than a sidelock.  Shotgun primers??  I'm not aware of any state where shotgun primers can be used legally during the muzzleloader season.  I'm sure from your post that there are, but in New Hampshire it is a big no-no.  If it uses anything other than a cap (#11, musket) and black powder, or doesn't load from the muzzle, it isn't a muzzleloader.
   

Quoted: Pryodex is one of the reasons inlines have become so pouplar. Pryodex is crap compared to blackpowder. Pryodex ignites at 750 degrees. Blackpowder ignites from 300 to 350 degrees. Combine the high ignition temp and idiots hunting with a dirty rifle causes problems with tradional caplock rifles.

Pyrodex IS black powder.  It is composed of a mixture of potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulfur.  True, it has a higher percentage of charcoal and a smaller percentage of sulfur, but it is still black powder.  The lower percentage of sulfur accounts for the higher ignition temperature.  If anything, this would make an inline less reliable if the rifle is dirty because Pyrodex doesn't ignite as easily as black powder.  Pyrodex has nothing to do with inlines being more popular.  It is because inlines are easier to clean.  Period.  

Quoted: They get a deer in their sights and the rifle missfires. Since they blame the rifle itself instead of their ignorance they buy an inline because they are supposed to be more reliable.

Anyone who hits the woods with a muzzleloader that isn't spotless and dry is a fool.  If someone does buy an inline because they think it is more reliable when dirty, or are simply inherantly more reliable, they will be in for a big surprise.

From your threads, your concerns seem to be more with the guy behind the trigger than the inlines themselves.  You simply can't paint all inline users with the same brush.  Also, just because *I* didn't go out and promote legislation to approve muzzleloader seasons (too young), doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to enjoy it.  I pay the extra muzzleloading fees and therefore I have the right to hunt.  *My* money now helps to maintain the season.    

Quoted:  Also, just because *I* didn't go out and promote legislation to approve muzzleloader seasons (too young), doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to enjoy it.  I pay the extra muzzleloading fees and therefore I have the right to hunt.  *My* money now helps to maintain the season.

You have the right to hunt with the proper firearm and not a modern rifle.

Again it is still the same as the guy driving the Yugo trying to get into the Corvette rally. He can claim he should be allowed because his Yugo is still a car and wishes to pay his dues to support the rally.

He is still should not be welcome untill he gets a Corvette. By letting hin in with his Yugo then they will have to let anyone else in no matter what they drive.

Before long the Corvette owners are the miniority and the people with the Yugos and AMC Pacers are running the show and the Corvette owners that spent years building this club have lost everything they worked for.

They can no longer enjoy the fruits of their labor because of everyone else in their way.

If the owners of the old Sharps single shot rifles and replicas with aperture sights were granted a seperate season because they lobbied the law makers to give them the season would it be right for you to hunt in THEIR season with a modern Ruger single shot with a scope?

Quoted:
If the owners of the old Sharps single shot rifles and replicas with aperture sights were granted a seperate season because they lobbied the law makers to give them the season would it be right for you to hunt in THEIR season with a modern Ruger single shot with a scope?

----------------------------------------------

I understand your points, and they are clear, I simply have to disagree.  I didn't mention anything about scopes, but they had those back then as well.  

If you use the same logic, then replicas shouldn't be allowed either, as they are 'modern' guns that work in the same way as the originals.  I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quoted: If you use the same logic, then replicas shouldn't be allowed either, as they are 'modern' guns that work in the same way as the originals.  I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Replicas are close copies of the origional rifles.

Inlines are new design modern rifles that do not even remotely resemble anything but a modern rifle.

My logic allows replicas.

Very few buckskinners use origional rifles because they are so rare and expensive. Most do not even use factory replicas such as TC Hawkens. They use custon built or semi custon handmade rifles styled exactly after an origional rifle or a style of origional rifle.