Yeah, I know..people love to hate 'em but its a 20" barrel in a 30" package and I have a thing for hi-tech guns.

Anyways after the DC mess, I went forth and got the Bullpup I have been shopping for.  I figgered their would be a knee jerk so I sprang for one ($700, NIB, tax, tag and title).

It had feed probelms out of the box.  The bolt would not always throw all the way back, thus friction loading the next round (and it jamming on the ramp).  It would not always lock open on an empty mag.  Hmmm, not good.

Settled down to zeroing in the Aimpoint ml2 with  3 rnd groups. Then the rains came.

Went back to the range with three types of ammo and finished zeroing in with the cheap potugese stuff on three round groups.  Shoots straight.

Loaded up 20rnd mags with 10 rounds and went for it.  No jams and now locks open.  Went 20 for 20 rnd mags and blasted the steel plate @100 yds.  No jams. So the feed problem was tight rifle, tight springs.

So in summary...Bushy bullpup shoots straight and now feeds three ammo types, no problem.  No overhate problems like the early birds.  Its comfortable and easy to move around.

However, cheap ammo on a windless day will gag you.  The ejection port is under your noise.

Trigger sucks and needs a polish and shims.

Am I trying to convert you?  Hell no.  Its like an outboard or a truck, people have their preconceived choices and will not be swayed.  Is it a cool piece?  Hell yes, and if you like 'em go for it.

Byron

I've thought about one of these for a long time, but have held off due to the long trigger pull, poor iron sights, and rumours of overheating.

Two questions-

1. Have they made some sort of improvement to aid in cooling since the early ones?

2. Is it comfortable to shoot from the prone position with a 30 round mag in it?  Seems like it would be kind of high off the ground.

Interesting comment on the fumes and ejection port right under your nose.  Read in Small Arms Review a while back that the Soviets really wanted to go with a bullpup for their new AN-94 assault rifle, and the article had some early pics, but they went back to a traditional stock after discovering the fumes were to great for shooters to handle in full auto.

The biggest turn on for me is that this rifle is just 30" with a 20" barrel.

The al. forearm/upper? is well ported....lots of 1/2" holes.  I don't know what the earlies were like.

A 30 rnd mag is a 30 rnd mag in either AR or bullpup.  Pretty high. I'll give you an update on feed with 30's in the next edition.

I joked with a firefighter buddy of mine about the fumes and he recommended SCBA (self contained breathing app).  On full auto you would need it.  And nobody makes crappier ammo than the Soviet bloc.

It is a decent rifle.  The trigger pull is not long just hard. The sites are useless, it IS designed for optics, but look at the new AR's. And some people do put on a forward pistol grip which would be cool.

Byron

I've kicked around the idea of one of these for a while too.


I thought the barrel length was actually 21+ " ?

Anyhow I'd be interested if it could infact be made into a tack driver,what with the long barrel and compact size.

Would be a trick,handy setup if superb accuracy was possible.

I know nothing of these rifles.Do they have the same gas/action setup as an AR?

Keep us posted.

Quoted: I've kicked around the idea of one of these for a while too. I thought the barrel length was actually 21+ " ?

The barrel is 21.5" - you are correct.

Anyhow I'd be interested if it could infact be made into a tack driver,what with the long barrel and compact size. Would be a trick,handy setup if superb accuracy was possible.

The only real impediment to accuracy is the trigger, which is never going to be a match trigger because of the long linkage required.  However, a little fiddling can make it considerably better (or Kurt can do it along with other mods).

I know nothing of these rifles.Do they have the same gas/action setup as an AR? Keep us posted.

They have a far superior gas system, since it is piston-based and does not dump gas and smutz onto the bolt like the AR system. After shooting, the M17S requires little cleaning.

Most people get some modifications done on their M17S to make it even better.  Kurt (who has his own forum over in the Industry section) is the man when it comes to customizing an M17S.

The iron sights are completely useless, the rail could be longer and the handle could be a little more stable.  People often remove the handle and replace it with a rail, or (in my case) have Kurt manufacture a new, solid aluminium handle with a lower, longer rail, to replace it.

I'll never know if it is a tack driver I have a 4moa site on it.

After 6 months or so I'm gonna do a trigger job on it.  I don't wanna mod the gun right away in case their is a warranty issue.

I'll update you on the 30 rnd mag later.

Byron

Hmmm......Thanks for the info DK.

Of course I was thinking of a scoped,tackdriver h2o.

I had heard that the supplied sights were......ah......um.....poo poo?

"Settled down to zeroing in the Aimpoint ml2 with 3 rnd groups."

ie, the scope is a 4moa device.

And, yes, the so-called sites are pretty useless.

Byron

I have a pretty cheap optic on mine - an adjustable propoint (different size dots).

The picture shows the mods.  The main feature is the longer solid aluminium handle, with a lower longer rail on it.  There's also a rail under the front (I have a light on it right now), and Kurt moved the swivel studs to the left side instead of the bottom.  Kurt also tweaked the trigger.

I made the handguards myself (which is why they are so ugly) - and will make new (and nicer) ones someday.

Kurt also cut two cooling vents in each side of the receiver and put on a M60 lookalike brake on it - both things mostly for looks.



I believe that Kurt has some sort of relationship or endorsement from Bushmaster, so it might be worth asking him about the warranty if you want some mods done someday.

I had some early problems with magazines and just happened to have a few Thermolds, which worked flawlessly in the M17s. They also feel good with the synthetic lower so I just use them now. Maybe I should try some of the others now that it is more broken-in.

Nice lookin rifle DK.

I had seen a picture of your rifle somewhere else on the web and wanted to know about the mags.  Hmmmm, Thermold.

Plastic on plastic is good.  I'll look into 'em (or where do you get 'em).

Byron

Guys , I am M17 stupid , but think that is a really sharp rifle , so I must get one. Question , If I find a used one how do I know that I am buying the newer A1 version that has better heat shields/ venting holes. Is the rifle marked "M17A1" or were the problem guns all preban and by buying a newer postban I am getting the new & inporved?  I hope all that did not sound to stupid!  Thanks for all help.

Hey Para - I honestly don't know the answer to that.  I bought mine used, and it had the circular holes on top of the receiver.  I do not know when they began doing that. I got such a good deal on mine, I didn't ask a lot of questions!  $400 for a LNIB two years ago!    

You could try to post a question over in the Bushmaster forum, or email/call Bushmaster and ask them.  Maybe someone else in this thread will know.

I wish they made one for lefties.

Quoted: Guys , I am M17 stupid , but think that is a really sharp rifle , so I must get one. Question , If I find a used one how do I know that I am buying the newer A1 version that has better heat shields/ venting holes. Is the rifle marked "M17A1" or were the problem guns all preban and by buying a newer postban I am getting the new & inporved?  I hope all that did not sound to stupid!  Thanks for all help.

When you open it the retention pins pop almost all the way out.  Look at what they are retaining, it should be a whole loop.  On my preban it wasn't a complete circle and these would loosen so the stock would separate from the rifle.  Bushmaster upgraded mine for free becuase of the separation.  They charge a hundred bucks I think to upgrade if there is nothing otherwise wrong with the rifle.

I like the thing but I still kick myself for getting it instead of the Bushy CAR that was next to it on the rack in '94.  My friend had an AUG (paid 600 bucks for it the bastard) and I was just into the bullpup thing.  Oh well, live and learn.

The new ones are NOT marked m17s a1.  I understand all post ban rifles are improved.

And my new one is top ported only but did not get too hot.  Of course I was not defending myself from the Persian Empirial Army at Thermopolis, either.

$400 today for the rifle is only a day dream.  Their are three for sale on gunbroker.com and they will go for $700 sort of thing.  The preban one has a flash supp but ships with other probelms.

Bushy hasn't run them for a while but said they would in Fall 2002 (which came and went w/o incident).  Of course owning one now, I hope they limit production.

Where do I get Thermold mags?  Do they make 30rnd Thermolds?  Any feed problems?

Byron