User Panel
Posted: 11/13/2002 4:14:38 PM EDT
Do I need to go through an FFl on my end or can I ship direct to the purchasers FFL.
Thanks in Advance |
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That's like suspenders and a belt///some know the laws. Most don't hence the 2 end FFL swap. IMHO You dont need an FFL to sell, only to buy from an owner in a different state (mostly). |
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elohim1 You first need to receive a signed FFL from the dealer you are shipping to. Then obtain a signed FFL from your local transfer dealer and send it to the licensed FFL holder in the other state with the pistol.
THISISME |
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direct to the purchasers FFL
But UPS requires handguns to be shipped Red Label (overnite). Also, sometimes UPS has ask the person to provide a copy of the destination FFL. I don't know if this is Corp policy or just for one area. edited to add: Was required, Supervisor checked: L.A. County, CA |
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Perhaps...IMHO You don't need an FFL to sell,(around here)only NOT to buy...Instacheck and all. |
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DoubleYouDoubleYou, You don’t need a signed FFL to transfer ownership from a seller in one state to a buyer who lives and is currently out of state?
That’s news to me. THISISME |
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FFL to FFL looks like the safe way to go.
Thanks all for youre help. |
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Good God!! I really wish people would refrain from posting answers to questions they don't understand.
An unlicensed person may ship directly to a valid FFL holder. Further, a valid FFL holder is NOT required to provide a copy of his license to an unlicensed person. An unlicensed person must use a contract carrier (i.e., Federal Express, UPS, etc.) to ship a handgun, vice the Postal Service. AS A MATTER OF POLICY, and their POLICIES are NOT the LAW, UPS and Federal Express require handguns to be shipped overnight (that is, if you declare your contents as such to them). If a UPS employee tries to buffalo you into showing them a copy of an FFL, tell 'em to KISS YOUR ASS. That is NOT required by law, nor is it a policy of theirs. Start getting the appropriate supervisors involved. I've gone head-to-head with those assfaces before and always came out on top. There's no reason to take any shit off of them. Some FFL holders, however, whether as a matter of policy or ignorance, require that any transfers of firearms come from another FFL holder. This is purely discretionary on their part and you cannot force them to receive and transfer a firearm if they choose not to do so. Finally, if anyone cares to disagree with me on this matter, back it up with some FACTS. Refrain from posting any BULLSHIT that will unnecessarily cost someone money or cause them hassle. Savvy? |
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Jim_Dandy, A licensed person has always sent me or my transfer dealer a signed copy of their FFL to give to my transfer dealer before I ship the firearm to the buyers FFL along with a copy of my dealers signed FFL. No exceptions ever on out of state purchases and both dealers have always insisted that it be so and I have made dozens of out of state transfers over during past few years.
I can and have sent firearms out of state to a manufacturer for warranty work or to get some custom work done to a firearm and have done so without an FFL. But that is a different story altogether. I don’t see you providing any proof and I don’t have any either, just lots of experience. elohim1, Talk to your local dealer and I’m sure he will back me up on this one and his opinion is the only one that really matters because the pistol has to go through him before it ever gets to you. Oh and buy the way. I know Elohim and you are no Elohim. THISISME |
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Your experience doesn't mean much. You've only shown a lack of understanding. If a transfer is between licensees, then copies of the license are exchanged. If the transfer is between a licensee and an unlicensed person, then the licensee is NOT REQUIRED to provide you a copy of his license (HINT: NOT REQUIRED DOES NOT MEAN THAT A LICENSEE WON'T PROVIDE A COPY). From the BATF website:
Nowhere does it state that a licensee is required to provide an unlicensed person with a copy of his license. If, for instance it was required, you'd have to get a copy of a license EVERYTIME you sent a firearm back for repair (if the shipment went insterstate). Since you seem intent on playing the wiseass, I'll pull up and post the text to the sections of the GCA that have been referred to here. In the mean time, please refrain from posting any BULLSHIT. |
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Nowhere does it indicate that a licensee is REQUIRED to provide a copy of his license to a nonlicensee. Provide FACTS and not BULLSHIT if you disagree. It is also wholly unnecessary for the shipper to be an FFL holder. |
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Jim_Dandy, Go back and read the posts. This is out of state and sold to a none dealer from a none dealer. This is not warranty work. And the signed FFL is for the Lisenced dealer as I said many times
You post makes my point. B1) would mean he needs a licensed dealer to transfer it to. F8) And the buyer has to send a signed FFL from his local licensed dealer. In practice no dealer will receive an out of state firearm without receiving an FFL from the licensed dealer he received it from. Read my posts before you post. Nobody said a licensee is required to provide an unlicensed person with a copy of his license. It can go to my local FFL or to me but when I am selling it usually is accompanied with a Money order so it comes to me and then I bring to my local FFL with the firearm to be transferred. Then he fills out some paper work and gives me a signed copy of his FFL that I take and ship with the rifle or pistol out of state. Understand, I don’t know how I can make it any clearer. Some should not post when they don’t know what they are talking about. And that person is not me. because sometimes reality is a little different than what we read in books or on the internet. elohim1, It does not make any difference what I or some Jim_Dandy says. Talk to your local dealer and he will verify what I have said and then please come on back and fill Jim_Dandy in. THISISME |
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No shit.
I can't even begin to 'cipher any of the rest of this incoherent BULLSHIT. Here's the deal, slick. I'll type this really, really slow so you can read it. If shipping a firearm interstate, it must be received by a licensee. If the shipment is for the purposes of a sale, then the receiving FFL holder will conduct a transfer to the buyer. An unlicensed person is NOT required to ship a firearm via an FFL holder on HIS end. Savvy? An unlicensed person can ship a firearm, handgun or otherwise DIRECTLY to a valid FFL holder. Here's where it gets complicated, so pay attention. The receiving FFL holder is NOT REQUIRED to provide an unlicensed person with a copy of his FFL. This requirement ONLY applies to transaction between LICENSEES. Again, cite a regulation if you think you're right. Short of that, please do not post any BULLSHIT. Oh, and get someone else to type your next response if it's going to be as asinine as your last. |
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Heh, how's the caffeine intake today jim??
This is rather simple, as jim has explained it and of course he's 100% correct. Though, many if not most FFL's will not accept a shipment directly from a non-ffl. They are nervous and want them to be shipped through another ffl. I'm sure you can track one down that will take a shipment from a non-ffl, but.. it's not gonna be all that easy. These guys are in the business to make money, for themselves and the rest of their buddies in the (ffl) club.. :) |
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Jim_Dandy, Boy Jim, you sure do get riled up don’t you when you don’t know what you are talking about.
You are misunderstanding between two private parties and between two dealers and between interstate and with the state and who the sale is actually between and some dumb thing about FFL’s to private parties. In the real world in which I live and breath. if a dealer is involved on either end of the transaction between two private parties and one lives out of state the buyer will have to send a signed copy of his transfer dealers FFL. This will end up by some means in the hands of an FFL holder on the sellers end because it will not stay with the seller. This makes the sellers FFL holder a party to the transfer. Also the receiving dealer will require a signed copy of an FFL from the licensed dealer who is now involved in the transaction on the sellers end. This is the real world and this is the way it works regardless of what any laws say. elohim1, Talk to your local dealer and I’m sure he will back me up on this one and his opinion is the only one that really matters because the pistol has to go through him before it ever gets to you. END OF STORY THISISME |
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Roger that Jim_Dandy!!! Glad I have gotten it right without having to find out the hard way. [>(]
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THISISME
I'm sorry but you are wrong and Jim is right. The buyer does NOT have to ship the firearm through an FFL. He does have to ship it TO an FFL. Any time a gun is shipped through mail, UPS, whatever, it must be shipped TO an FFL, unless it is being shipped from an FFL back to the original owner. If you buy a handgun from me, I have to ship it to your FFL so he can do the transfer to you. I do not have to use an FFL on my end. Period. You do not have to provide me with a copy of your signed FFL. However, I would want this for my records to show exactly who transfered my pistol. Again it is not required by law. To make it as simple as possible, the shipper DOES NOT have to use an FFL. The reciever DOES have to use an FFL. Now your particular FFL may have a policy where they do not recieve guns from non-FFLs, but this is not mandatory. Does that help clear things up at all?? elohim1 You can legally ship the gun to the purchaser's FFL direct, if they will accept it. I would advise requesting a signed copy of the FFL for your records so you know where the gun went. If you don't feel comfortable shipping direct, send it through your FFL. |
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Waste of munny!!! |
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No FFL to ship from is needed...FFL's required on the buyers side only.
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Absolutly correct. Only if you feel the need to spend the money and cover your ass do you need to use an FFL. |
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yupper! |
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So you ware suspenders and a belt...Does that make it right? |
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I still say that elohim1’s buyer will be hard pressed to find a licensed dealer who will complete the transfer in a manner other than the way I have stated regardless of what the laws state. And that it is foolish to send a pistol out of state to someone simply because they claim they are an FFL holder.
And that is what really matters. THISISME |
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So basically you don't care what the law says , only your opinion really matters.
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204.254.113.252/
Use this to verify the address you are sending to is an FFL. BTW, the little disclaimer that pops up is for holders of the bound books (read: licensees). Ed |
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455SD, If the buyer can’t find a licensed FFL who will handle the transaction according to the law on his end and I want to sell my pistol then the law doesn’t really matter does it?
THISISME |
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If you don't confirm that you are shipping to an FFL, then it is on you for knowingly transferring a firearm outside state lines to an individual.
Use the link I provided. Or get the phone number of the shop or individual. You, as a private citizen, are not required to keep a bound book of records. You don't log a gun in or out. You have no need for the actual license, around here they won't give them out anyway. Ed |
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SHIVAN, Great link! Thank you.
That takes care of knowing that the FFL is an FFL. Now if he will only do the transfer according to the law instead of according to his legal council everything would be cool. Thanx again for the link. THISISME |
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I had a FFL for 6 years and bought Hundreds of rifles and pistols from S.O.G., Century International, CDNN and a dozen other out of state dealers. Each and every one of these FFL holders has a copy of my FFL with an original signature on it. I WASN'T REQUIRED TO AND DIDN'T GET A COPY OF THEIR FFL. That's the way it works between dealers. I listed their name and address in my bound record book and their FFL# if it was on their invoice. I did get an FFL from several local dealers that I transferred guns to,they didn't get an FFL from me.
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RELOADER-BOB, Did you ever have a transaction where you where not the purchaser and you received firearms for a non-licensed individual from a person from out of state without an accompanying signed FFL and the individual from out of state or his licensed dealer was never sent a copy of your signed FFL and you transferred the pistol to the person on your end?
Just asking because that is what seams others are recommending elohim1 should do. I’m not saying it’s legal or illegal I’m just asking if you ever had a transaction like the one described and do you recommend sellers or buyers or other dealers do things the same way? THISISME |
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In my expierence, most will accept it directly from anyone, as it is legal. We accept from anyone. We do not send our FFL out to anyone but license holders. We point everyone else to the BATF's FFL eZcheck system. Our inspector put us on to that because of the license forgery that has been occurring out there. Any non-licensee and a computer can suddenly cause guns to go anywhere they want... Not a good thing. |
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We do and I know of many others that do. It is very common. Use FFL eZcheck and you can't get it much better. |
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Budam, I had never seen the site before today and it works for me. Now if the sellers and FFL’s that sell me stuff from out of state will only abide by the law things would be great.
It would even be better if the people I sell stuff rifles and pistols to in the next few weeks found dealers that I could ship to without involving a dealer on my end. I have lived in N. Ca and Mesa, AZ and so far I have not found any out of state dealers or any out of state buyers/sellers who have not asked me to have a dealer on both ends of the transfer and I have quoted them the same laws in the distant past to no avail. With any luck elohim1’s buyer will have a good dealer like you near him. THISISME |
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I said it was legal to do, and I'm glad that most dealers "you" know will do it in your neck of the woods. But, where I'm from, Long Island NY, I know of none that will accept shipments from non-ffls. YMMV |
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In the last year I have sold some 12 or so firearms both pistols and rifles out of state through the mail. The ONLY place that I was required to do FFL to FFL was New York. I told the guy it was too much trouble as I had NEVER had to do a FFL to FFL before and sold the pistol to a guy in Florida.
SOME STATES REQUIRE FFL TO FFL TRANSFERS Most dont. I have never sold a gun FFL to FFL but one time I WAS required to send a copy of my Driver's License for some particular states laws. (Cant remeber which state it was right now) IMHO 90% OF THE TIME YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SEND FROM AN FFL. I send rifles from a friendly Mail Boxes ETC via UPS Ground and pistols overnight from FedEx. |
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Untrue.
Not required by any state. That's some FFL holder talking out of his ass.
The subject of this thread is NOT opinions, but what the law states in regards to unlicensed persons shipping firearms to licensees in other states. Again, if you choose to disagree, please post a valid reference, not something copied and pasted from Cabela's, etc. I would also admonish you from posting BULLSHIT. Thanks. |
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FACT: Noone is NY will accept a handgun if its not FFL to FFL. I tried for over a month to find someone and all said no. There are times when you must ship FFL to FFL and NY is a place where you must do this or you will not have an FFL recieve it.
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As stated earlier, that is a matter of policy and sometimes ignorance of the FFL holder, but not the law. I have shipped an item or two to New York state, but never did anyone require any BS regarding the sender having to hold an FFL. That's a fact as well. |
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After perusing this thread, it is painfully obvious that all of these laws only breed confusion.
They are all bullshit! (I know, we must follow them, but they are still BS). Us law abiding peasants jump through all of the man's hoops while Freddy GangBanger just steals his gat from the poor slob who just had to perform like a trained monkey to get warranty work done on his 1911. Or, Jose "say hello to my little friend" Lowrider picks his up from the owner of the chop shop in exchange for a set of 17" BMW wheels. They can blow me with all of these fucked up laws. Have you seen the United States Code lately? Down the hall in my firm's library, there are 185 individual books that make up the laws of the United States (Federal laws). That's not including court rules, updates since the publishing of the volume, C.F.R.s, or court cases interpreting those laws. I'd say on average each book has about 800 pages of law. That's over 184,000 pages of law! Now, if you aren't daunted by the sheer volume of it all, try reading the shit. I spent three years of my life learning to read and interpret it and sometimes it's still indecipherable. No wonder Joe Sixpack (or even trained lawyers) often have ZERO idea of just what's legal and what's not. Makes me want to go native and live in a shack in the mountains. |
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Its obvious to me that dealers who are members of AR15.COM know the laws better then those who are not.
THISISME |
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The most correct and profound thing I've read yet. The thing that's bad, is some unscrupulous individuals are taking advantage of most people's ignorance of the law. THAT'S the part that pisses me off most. *NOTE* Please don't interpret my earlier posting to mean that all UPS employees should kiss your ass, just the counter help. You can stop breaking my stuff now, 455SD. |
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This was a very interesting post.
I shall bookmark that link. I guess some dealers just prefer receiving from another FFL. For the reasons of giving another business or just to save their tail if something goes wrong..... |
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Don't worry Jim. I would never take offense to any of your crap. |
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I've always thought it was a tad more cerebral than crap. However, I'm glad you have a tough hide. |
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