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Posted: 7/25/2002 3:50:59 AM EDT
[#1]
If you can find one of the old Colt uppers, they have a twist rate of 1 in 12, I beleive, which is much better than the 1 in 9 of a 223 upper.
I beleive Kurts (KKF) gettin' ready to do a run of 22 dedicated uppers. They will have a different bore diameter than a 223 also. I'm still waitin' on mine. I already have the Ciener unit, but haven't gotten to test drive her. The 30 rounders - I saw a thread there a couple of guys were lookin' for 30's, but if I recall correctly, Bushmaster and others that sell the Ciener units also sell 30's. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 3:56:29 AM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 7/25/2002 4:16:17 AM EDT
[#3]
If you don't mind spending the bucks a .22lr upper is way cool. There is something undescribably fun about shooting .22lr out of an AR. I had a Ciener kit, but sold it; accuracy out of my 1 in 7 twist 16" upper . . . sucked (4-5" groups at 25 yards - I do better with a pistol), after a breakin period reliability was good until it got dirty. Due to my economic sensitivity (OK, I'm a cheapskate) I sold it, got a 1022 and tricked it out - all for less than a Ciener plus a dedicated upper. The dedicated uppers, with the correct bore diameter and twist, are quite accurate.
re: http://www.22lr.org/projects.htm Hope this helps. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 4:22:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Sounds like a Ruger 10-22 may be the way to go
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Posted: 7/25/2002 4:27:13 AM EDT
[#5]
Go to the M-16 forum, look for posts by drfColt, he has a 22LR on SBR? with a Gemtech can I think. I think he is using an Accuracy Speaks barrel. I've kinda got an itch for similar set-up, as I have recently acquired 2 cans for 223,as I have had an old "Atchison" for 13yr now and a Colt kit.
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Posted: 7/25/2002 4:27:51 AM EDT
[#6]
For the cost of a Ciener plus dedicated upper . . . . well, you can do a 10/22 with bells and whistles plus a lot of .22 ammo. I'm not knockin' .22 uppers, I would love to have one, but for my money, I get more bang for the buck from the 10/22 route.
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Posted: 7/25/2002 4:29:51 AM EDT
[#7]
I hear ya! I have this thing about wasting money as well, and don't want to make a "bad" decision. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 4:34:19 AM EDT
[#8]
That would be my suggestion WaveRunner, but I have toyed with the thought of getting a dedicated .22 upper as well. If you get one from KKF you will get an excellent upper, but will have $400-$500 in it. You can buy a new 10/22 for $157.00. Put a $85.00 Volquartsen hammer and sear in it and you have a good trigger. The 10/22 is fairly accurate and reliable right out of the box. There is a problem with them though. After you start customizing them you tend to go a little nuts and end up with $1k in it!
 C4 |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 4:50:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Here's what I was considering:
1) 20" heavy barrel, 416 SS, post-ban, flat top varmint configuration - $520 2) Modified to fit upper Ciener kit - $139 3) (3) 10 round magazines - $75 4) Shipping - $15 So far $749, NOT including Optics($119.95), scope rings, or a Harris bi-pod. Figure I'm in about $868.99, how would you outfit a Ruger 10-22 with that much cash? Basically build me a kick-ass Ruger with all the cool sh!t  |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:03:54 AM EDT
[#10]
C4i -
Isn't that scope like WAAAAAAAYY high??? Wave - If you plan on scoping it, you prolly want to go with the Ruger (tho a flattop would make a very nice setup) I'm getting mine to use in the yard as practice for highpower matches (and the occassional Rambo run in the back woods) First thing you should do, IMO, is decide WHY you want it, and what you plan to do with it. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:05:22 AM EDT
[#11]
Waverunner,
i do NOT have a dedicated upper, but i do have two Ciener conversions & 8, 30 rnd mags., which are near impossible to find, & if you do they are $50 - $85 each now, when i bought mine from Bushmaster three months ago they only had 5, 30 rnd Cieners kits left, they're all gone now... i too have a 10/22, but it is far more fun to bust a 30 rnd. mag. full of .22LRs down range than the 10/22.., i have two SP-1s, the accuracy for me is plenty good, at 100 yds., the bullet drop is significant about 12", but who does 100 yd plinking wyth a .22LR ? for maximun fun i highly recomend getting the Ciener kit & utilizing your AR-15 to it's fullest potential.. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:07:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Why do I want it? Ammo is insanely cheap. I can shoot all day and not care. On the other hand with an AR-15...
What do I plan to do with it? Indoor range rifle, fun plinker, see how small I can group rounds. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:08:00 AM EDT
[#13]
Oh yeah and eventually I'll be receiving a Mossberg M44(and a Garand!) from the CMP...
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:11:18 AM EDT
[#14]
Wave -
Bad news dude. Last I checked, all the M44's are gone at CMP. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:15:11 AM EDT
[#15]
I placed that order way back in May, I must have made the cut because they cashed my check. |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:15:24 AM EDT
[#16]
I love my 22 upper but that's because I'm using it on a registered full auto Colt 614.
Here is mine on a DPMS Hi-Rider with a Gemtech Predator silencer. I milled out the receiver to accept a laser too you can see above the handguard and below the optical scope.  Here is what the custom Rick Kuehl barrel looks like: 
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:15:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Any problems with Jams? |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:17:54 AM EDT
[#18]
LOVE IT, I need to move to Florida now. I sent e-mail to Rick Kuehl. I'm considering his 20SS varminter set up |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 6:01:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Waverunner,
"jams"......, a few, but nothyng to get upset over, i have only one mag. that causes consistant jams, but for the most part they are pretty trouble free, i have unloaded 3, 30's one day down range & not one malfunction..... indoor range ?? a SP-1 & Ciener conversion shud give you many hours of fun, what are the distances on indoor ranges ?? i once shot ice balls in an indoor range in San Diego wyth what i belive were .20 caliber shot shells....., i belive that venture was very short lived, a friend of mine worked at the place & got me a box of shot shells, they are strictly collectors items as most if not all the guns were destroyed..., as i was told...... |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 6:50:09 AM EDT
[#20]
garandman, the Ruger pic I have posted is a .22 Magnum. As you know, the 10/22 magnum comes with little posts as part of the receiver. Ruger includes a set of rings that screw onto the posts, but you can't use a scope with anything above a 40mm objective. No one else makes rings for these special Ruger posts. So I had the posts milled down and had a custom weaver mount drilled and tapped into the receiver. The height of the weaver base allows for me to mount up to a 56mm objective scope. The scope on there right now is only a 44mm so it appears to have a lot of clearance. The position of the scope is ideal for benchrest shooting (no neck strain).
WaveRunner, ok here are the specs to build a tack driving 10/22: 10/22 = $157.00 Volquartsen 16" Carbon Fiber barrel = $201.00 Volquartsen HP action kit = $107.00 Clark Heritage benchrest stock = $150.00 Total = $615.00 You can really go nuts and buy a Volquartsen receiver, Volquartsen trigger box or a alum. alloy stock which would put you in the $900.00 range. My Ruger 10/22 has a Clerke .920 16" barrel that I paid $85.00 for that shoots just as good as any $200.00 dollar barrel. Both of my Ruger's will shoot under half inch groups @ 50yds with cheap ammo (Winchester and PMC). I am a fan of Volquartsen products, but Power Custom makes excellent stuff as well... C4 |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 11:29:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Waverunner, I put together a dedicated .22LR upper on the cheap...
a slick side M16 upper I traded some knives for, a skinny SP1 1:12 Colt barrel I got off gunbroker.com, triangular handguards and delta ring assy. I bought from a member here, and a USAF .22LR conversion kit I bought from another member here. It's alot of fun and cheap to shoot. Right now I only use it for .22 but if I got a bolt and headspaced it, I could shoot .223 with it. Seems like it gets attention at the range because it's so quiet and has no recoil to speak of, and people want to know what "the mouse with no roar" is. I think I enjoy watching the juniors shoot it almost as much as they enjoy shooting it. 
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Posted: 7/25/2002 5:14:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Wave, I did the same as Big_Bear. Sarco has the 1/12 Colt barrels for $130. You can get an M16 upper without the FA for under $100 and the hanguards for around $20. The delta ring assembly runs about $12. You do not need a gas tube. So, with the Ciener kit you are talking about $400+. My son loves shooting it. He just hates the 10rd mags As for the 30rd Ciener mags, the only place that I know that still has them is Delta Force. At $145 each, this is probably why they still have them. Also DPMS sells a dedicated 22LR flattop upper complete with BC and 1 - 10rd mag for $399. I believe that it has a 16" .920 OD chrome moly free floated barrel. Al's Custom sells it for $379. Then again, if money is no object and hair splitting accuracy is a must, go to the pros.
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Posted: 7/25/2002 9:03:56 PM EDT
[#23]
I've never seen it on the DPMS website. Al's Custom? Got a phone # or website? |
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Posted: 7/25/2002 9:28:03 PM EDT
[#24]
I think they're worth it. It's just a lot of fun to shoot an AR and have people think it is suppressed (for those of us who can't legally have a suppresser in our state). Here's a pic of my son shooting mine. The barrel is a custom KKF job I got a few years ago when there was less demand and the price was a bit lower. It's 20" 1:16 twist, free floated. He did the barrel and float tube in black teflon. It's mated to a no name flat top upper with a 4x20 scope. Pretty accurate and loads of fun. The whole upper assembly including the Ciener kit and scope was put together for about $400. I also have a dedicated upper like BigBear, A1 with 1:12 twist. I actually like shooting that one more. But then I like iron sites. That one was done for about $250.
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Posted: 7/26/2002 12:30:06 AM EDT
[#25]
I did the .22lr upper thing and also bought a Ruger 10/22 with the laminated stock and SS heavy barrel. I did some minor work on the ruger and it will shoot sub .5" groups all day.
The .22lr AR upper has a barrel I bought from KKF and I bought the rest of the parts here and there and I put it together. It will also shoot sub .5" all day. Now the Ruger is fun to shoot, I think it's accuracy is good and it didn't cost a great deal ($350). The .22lr upper is another story -- I built it to practice my off-hand shooting but found it was so much fun to shoot that I've spent most of my shooting time with it. The real down side is the average 22 rimfire AR upper costs around $400 and more, just for the upper. |
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Posted: 7/26/2002 1:40:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Wave, on the DPMS website it is under barrel assemblies. It will be at the top left of the first page that comes up.
www.shooterstore.com/acb/showprod.cfm?&DID=90&CATID=507&ObjectGroup_ID=1243 As for Al's Custom, he is in western PA (724-869-0943). store.shooters.com/acb/showprod.cfm?&DID=204&User_ID=2277805&st=5963&st2=-57969571&st3=69217426&CATID=855&Group=22LR%20Barrel%20Assembly |
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Posted: 7/26/2002 4:27:48 AM EDT
[#27]
I have to throw my vote for the dedicated upper. I bought mine from Kurts Kustom Firearms last fall. I received it in October. It was a 10 week wait. Well worth the wait, I might add.
I have greatly improved my accuracy with my AR-15's, because in the past 9 months I have put over 9,000 rounds of .22 through my upper. Practice does make perfect! It was an investment, but once it is paid for, I realized that it was the wise investment. A 10/22 wouldn't have satisfied my shooting urge the way my KKF upper does. I probably would have ended up buying a dedicated upper down the road, and ended up paying more for it. Brad |
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Posted: 7/26/2002 6:22:51 AM EDT
[#28]
About that DPMS setup, is that complete with nothing else to buy except mags? |
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Posted: 7/26/2002 9:10:17 AM EDT
[#29]
This is my ($350)ruger 10/22 heavy SS barreled all stock except for the used ($100)Tasco World Class 8x to 32x scope and ($55) Harris bipod (I have done some cleanup work on the stock and action). It shoots .5" all day at 50 yards -- but -- that gets boring and the thing looks just like every other 10/22 at the range. I like to shoot it now and then but I really like to shoot the KKF 22lr uppered AR. It's just as accurate although if I wanted to trick out the 10/22 it would shoot a lot better. Buy the way, I also bring my match service rifle upper so I can shoot some 223. I can't do that with the ruger. |
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Posted: 7/26/2002 9:44:40 AM EDT
[#30]
Wave, on the DPMS setup, it is complete and I believe that it comes with 1 mag. At least that was what they originally said when it came out.
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Posted: 7/26/2002 10:06:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Ruger 10/22 150 Boyds Blaster stock $99 CPC tuneup (cut new barrel crown, shorten back part of barrel and cut bolt face so they match better, jeweled bolt, trigger like a dream) $150 Leupold base and rings $35 Green Mountain Barrel Blued Alloy 20 inch $105 Optics $120 ??? from swfa Cheaper then the upper and gets lots of looks. Ray Ill bring mine to the shoot in august and you can test it out. I doubt youll find a better trigger then the one from CPC. |
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Posted: 7/26/2002 10:16:00 AM EDT
[#32]
Jared from DPMS e-mailed me that there's a several month backorder on the DPMS .22LR uppers! :-(
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Posted: 7/26/2002 10:21:53 AM EDT
[#33]
Wave -
Back to your original question, let's use Hoplite's math - Ruger 10/22 all cherried out - $660. Dedicated 22 rimfire AR upper with optics - $870 Another "evil AR" in circulation that makes Liberals wet themselves - PRICELESS. Get the dedicated 22 rimfire AR upper. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 10:39:48 AM EDT
[#34]
I have a KKF 16" dedicated 22lr upper from Kurt. I use it with my M16 and can dump 30 round mags in a sec or two. No problems at all.
I went with 16" so I could use it on my AR's too. |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 12:11:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Wave:
I have gone both routes. The 10/22 is accurate, but it is NOT as accurate as my dedicated upper. I bought the upper to practice for service rifle competition. I just waited until I had an upper with a worn barrel and sent it to Derrick Martin (AccuracySpeaks) with a kit I had lying around. For about $300-$350, he rebarreled it and fit the kit. For practice, I shoot at an A36 target at 50 feet. The "10-ring" is a dot appx .5mm in diameter (common mechanical pencil). If I do my part, the rifle is capable of cleaning the target, ie 100 out of 100 points. Mine loves RWS target ($2.75 box). A little pricy, but very accurate and no jams. Aguila SE is accurate enough, cheaper, dirtier and not 100% reliable. Most target ammo works well. I would like to try some wolf match target,but I haven't ordered any yet. Shop the EE and I'll bet you can put together a dedicated upper for less$$. HTH....SRM |
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Posted: 7/27/2002 2:20:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Hoplite,
If ya get a chance, try a Tony Kidd "Super Match" trigger for the 10/22. 2-stage, 6oz. to 13oz. (adjustable) pull! CPC IS great, but, they can't do that! |
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